Free Markets, Free People


Polls against Walker similar to polls against ObamaCare

One of the Kossaks has a post up about the polls showing WI Governor Scott Walker on the wrong end of them as he moves to fix the WI budget and curtail the power of public sector unions.

Poll after poll is telling Scott Walker the same thing: you are on the wrong side of public opinion. While early polling can fool you, we now have substantial data both from the nation and from Wisconsin.

[…]

The bottom line is that Gov. Walker has overplayed his hand with the public. Every Republican governor who is trying to curtail collective bargaining is at risk for being seen by the public as taking rights away, not balancing the budget. That can be done with givebacks (and the public is all for that, especially through negotiation.) But trying to curtail collective bargaining is seen by the public as the power grab it really is. The polls leave no doubt.

My reaction is, “so what”?

I mean I seem to recall poll after poll telling Obama and the Democrats that Americans didn’t want the ObamaCare monstrosity.  But we were reminded that he’d won and elections have consequences.

Is that no longer true?

~McQ

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56 Responses to Polls against Walker similar to polls against ObamaCare

  • And you can take their polls with a tiny grain of salt.  I find it hard to believe that the very voters who elected Walker to carry out the very agenda he promised to carry out are suddenly stunned and disappointed that he’s, you know, doing what he promised. 

  • I know this is painfully lame, but, I truly think this is a messaging and education problem. If all you ask Joe Q is “Is it ok to take away union rights?” (which seems to pretty much be the framing for all these polls) you’re going to get the responses we are seeing. In fact, I’m a little surprised that they are as close to parity as they are. If you explain, step by step, what this deal with the devil that collective bargaining in the public sector is, I guarantee those numbers will move in a big way in favor of stripping that privilege away. Heck, if enough people would pay attention, I think we could get public unions outlawed in a healthy majority of states.

  • It’s called “hypocrisy”.  What applies to you doesn’t apply to me.  Plain and simply.

  • The taking away of collective bargaining is a very bold move, very bold indeed, and it’s right on target as a necessary component of dealing with public employee unions, which are insulated from market forces even as they have developed an extraordinary capacity for rentseeking. They’ve become a shakedown racket.

    Walker needs to redouble his confrontation with them and sharpen his rhetoric to show the public what these unions are and how they fix the game. These unions hide behind the aura of traditional industrial unions, most of which have already priced themselves out of the marketplace, and have been in decline for decades. The public employee unions just price themselves higher, every go around, because they never go into the marketplace and are paid with compulsory taxation, largely in the form of property taxes. And property taxes are the ultimate shotgun at the head of a citizen: If you don’t ante up they take your house away.

  • McQ I know you and I have communicated about this and we are in agreement on at least one thing and that is all folks in Wisconsin who are eligible for a state pension should be contributing to the so called budget crisis, namely police and fire.  They are currently excluded by Walker’s decree in the bill.  They supported him in the last election by a majority so he seeks to reward them.  Have no problem with that, he that has the gold makes the rules.  But if it is truly a crisis and everyone must sacrifice why leave them out?  It would mean hundreds of millions more money to help with the so called crisis.

    But the true stupidity of Walker is that he doesn’t need the dems at all to get his way.  Simply make a separate bill eliminating collective bargaining and that bill does not require a quorum.  Only matters of fiscal implications require a quorum and some of the missing dems say they support the cuts.  So why all the consternation and hand wringing on either side.  If he wants to have his way he just needs to do it, and be done with it.  If the people of Wisconsin don’t like it they can recall him in ten months or so, but he can end it if he wants to, he just doesn’t want to and again that is his perogative.  If he wants to continue to have four or five hundred police offices at or around the capitol that he has ordered in from hundreds of miles away to help quell the protests then so be it.  If is costs millions of dollars in salaries and hotel and per diem costs, then so be it.  But all he has to do to end it is act appropriately and make a separate bill to end collective bargaining.  Does he really want to save the state money?  If he does then he needs to act without delay. 

    • They [police and fire] supported him in the last election by a majority so he seeks to reward them.
      I’ve seen many reports that only 2 of the smaller police and fire unions supported Walker, with the bulk going to his opponent, so some supportin evidence is needed here.

    • Frankly, I think this might be a “divide and conquer” long term strategy.  Once the other public employees are constrained, some of them will support pushing this on the police and fire unions.

    • First, it isn’t true that “police and fire” supported him in the last election. A few police and fire did, but the majority did not:

      During the campaign last November, leaders of the Milwaukee Professional Firefighters Association and Milwaukee Police Association appeared in an ad supporting Walker and blasting his opponent, Democrat Tom Barrett. Walker also won endorsements from the West Allis Professional Police Association and the Wisconsin Troopers Association

      Walker didn’t get the endorsements of two statewide unions, the Wisconsin Professional Police Association and the Professional Fire Fighters of Wisconsin, which both backed Barrett.

      For the record, the governor told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that the charge that he was exempting police and firefighters was “ridiculous.” He said he didn’t recommend changing the rules for police officers and firefighters because he didn’t want public safety work disrupted.

      We then contacted the Wisconsin Professional Police Association, the statewide union that endorsed Walker’s opponent last year. Executive director Jim Palmer said the statewide organization is much larger than the local Milwaukee police union that endorsed Walker. The state group has approximately 11,000 members versus Milwaukee’s roughly 1,400, he said.

      Similarly, the state firefighters association has more than 3,000, compared with the Milwaukee union’s 875.

      So your guess is as good as mine as to why he’s exempted them except perhaps to try to sway them to his side next election (yes, raw politics).

      As for your point about legislation, I don’t blame him for holding out and demanding the Democrats quit playing spoiled brats and participate in the legislation as they’ve been elected to do. Yes, he most likely could pass much of the stuff without a quorum, but then its legitimacy will be called into question (you can hear it now, “we weren’t able to propose or vote on amendments”, etc.). Can’t have it both ways, Kev. Can’t agree to and participate in elections and then when you lose, take your ball and go home. They need to grow a pair, head back, and make their stand where they agreed to make it when they were elected. If they lose, and they obviously will, then they have a case against the current administration they can carry to the people and change it after winning at the ballot box … no?

      Isn’t that the way it is supposed to work … among adults?

      • Thought this was about saving the state of Wisconsin money.  Thought it was about getting on with business of Wisconsin.  There are plenty of both sides who take their ball and go home when they don’t win.  And McQ I never said I agreed with the dems leaving, so I don’t need it both ways.  To me there is one urgent and compelling issue and that is for Walker to do as he is promising and get on with the budget cuts with or without the dems, as he doesn’t need them.  Their actions, as well as his will be tested at the ballot box. 

        On the police unions, my bad, although the Wisconsin police and fire did support them  As far as disrupting police and fire I suspect bringing in law enforcment officers by the hundreds might really affect the communities from which they are absent.  Officers from one community or town do not need to be in Madison standing around while their own community runs the risk of being short handed with them.   And trust me all they are doing is standing around, I have witnessed that first hand.  What a waste of manpower and money.   As your buddy Keeton would say thank you thank you very much. 

        As for the last part, politicians are seldom adults, don’t give a s**t which party. 

        • So Walker should give into the Democrat’s childishness because it’s about “saving money”? Are you saying Democrats aren’t interested in that? Because all they have to do is show up and the money savings is on the way. Or is that just something the GOP folks should be interested in? The urgent and compelling issue could be settled quickly with adults showing up to make a quorum.

          As for the last part, politicians are seldom adults, don’t give a s**t which party.

          Nice throw away line, but it’s pretty obvious who aren’t the adults in the scenario we’re discussing.

          • Walker is the leader, and put all the emphasis on fiscal crisis, and the dems agreed that cuts should be made.  Their stance is for collective bargaining for everyone who is losing theirs with his bill.  Your throwaway line is “Are you saying Democrats aren’t interested in that?”  The dems have agreed to the cuts practically from day one.  If it indeed is a financial crisis, move on without them, he doesn’t need them.  As you said and I agreed voters will sort it out in the elections.  tick tock, crisis, tick tock, crisis  Walker should move on because he has insisted it is a crisis, he doesn’t need the dems, and “The state of Wisconsin is broke” according to the Gov.  This is costing millions a day.  The Dems are acting like children, but why put my state in a worst financial crisis by not moving without them.   If it truly is about the money, then he needs to go the next step and include police and fire as well.

          • Walker is the leader and he’s decided he wants government to function as it should.

            The Dems haven’t agreed to anything yet – they’re in IL. They need to quite acting like a bunch of babies and show up and do their job. And the red herring about “saving money” is just that. The ones who walked away from the process are the Democrats. As Michael said in a post last week, “civility” means agreeing to a set of rules and abiding by them as they apply to the process of governance. The incivility being displayed here is on the side of the Dems.

            IF Walker allows them to benefit from this nonsense, then he opens the door to it becoming a regular feature of legislative politics. I don’t blame him a bit for insisting they show back up and do their job and his only manner of demonstrating what they’re doing is to show how the legislative process is subverted by their childish antics.

          • Whao, there are several leaders at work here.
            But the leaders who count are those FOR democracy and those AGAINST democracy.
            Walker and the Senate Majority Leader are simply doing what the law, their oath of office, and every tenet of American representative democracy say they should do.
            The Fleebaggers are violating the law, their oaths, and our system’s most fundamental compact…the people vote, the majority of representatives express their wishes.
            You seem REAL confused on all this, sport.  That is WAY past “money”.

          • IF Walker allows them to benefit from this nonsense, then he opens the door to it becoming a regular feature of legislative politics. I don’t blame him a bit for insisting they show back up and do their job and his only manner of demonstrating what they’re doing is to show how the legislative process is subverted by their childish antics

            >>>>  If the Dems manage to benefit from this nonsense in any state they try it, I basically demand the GOP does the same exact thing as a matter of routine when possible.  If this is gonna be the end of consensual election results, then two must play at that game.

  • The real difference here is that ObamaCare will be dipping into our pockets until it is ended, whereas, Walker’s Gambit pretty much ends when it is passed, except for the public employees.
    Walker’s Gambit will only present a systemic danger to Republicans if it can be proven that his, and the other Governors, have staddled the public with an even bigger debt.   While some numbers have been bounced around, the long term costs still look miniscule, if not downright negative.  Meanwhile, the true costs of ObamaCare keep getting larger, with Medicaid costs to the states, growing and growing.

  • Off the wall suggestion – how about a taxpayers union?

  • Obviously question on the survey.
    “Should the WI government ban collective bargaining !!?!?!?!—>RIGHTS!<–!!?!?!.”
    Obvious, ill informed answer.
    Why are they banning rights??!?!?.”
    Case solved, stop calling it a right. They government also has a right to not listen to the union and refuse to negotiate. And then teachers have the right to quit working for them.

    • More correct than not, josh.  Collective bargaining is a “privilege” or “prerogative”, not an intrinsic “right”.  It is of fairly modern coinage.  Prior to 1960, federal employees had no such ability, though they DID have a union.  JFK extended this privilege to them by dictate…executive order.  While a few states were in front of that, Kennedy’s act opened a fad.  You will find most states that allow collective bargaining among public-sector employees began the practice about that time.
      Give civil service law, there is NO excuse for collective bargaining in the public sector.

  • Guys, it is important to remember two things WRT this whole poll story–
    1. The polls are all over the map, and several are beyond suspect in fully into bogus territory.
    http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1295.xml?ReleaseID=1562
    2. This is not Walker’s first dance with PEUs.  He has gone heads-on with them in Milwaukee, and been re-elected twice, I believe.

    Finally, LEADERSHIP sometimes means you buck the polls PROVIDED you are doing what you have said you would do when running of office.  Walker never lied about who he was or  what his program would be if elected.

    • Actually Walker is for collective bargaining, at least for police and fire unions,  Because he is leaving Police and Fire unions totally intact, at least for present.  So, some of the state employees unions will be kaput, but some will be intact, why, the disparity?

      • I don’t know the “in the weeds” details, BUT…
        check out the pay rates for firemen and the police versus a teacher.
        Teachers make more.
        This suggests there IS a disparity ALREADY.  To hazard a guess, collective bargaining for cops and firefighters is already limited somehow.
        You are either ignorant or lying.  No union will be “kaput”.
        Just as no “working fablies” have spontaneously combusted in Ohio, or in Indiana where Daniels did this by executive order years back.

        • Don’t know all the details, but here are a few interesting ones, so I won’t have “To hazard a guess.”  This from teacherportal.com and from Indeed.com.  After looking at openings offered to police and fire and to teachers here’s what I have found.

          starting teachers in Wisconsin about 25,000 per year.  Starting police officers average around 30,000 a year.  Teachers average around 46,300 a year in Wisconsin and according to Indeed.com police officers average around 46,000 per year in Wisconsin.  I looked at numerous police openings around the state that are currently advertised and they average around 28,000 to 35,000.  Doesn’t seem much of a disparity till you factor in reductions proposed for teachers, the fact the police and fire contract benefits are better than teachers, police and fire pull in overtime yearly and are paid extra for that, and their retirements are also better as they can retire at an earlier age. 

          As for your “To hazard a guess, collective bargaining for cops and firefighters is already limited somehow” is correct, they can’t strike.  However they can be forceably ordered by the governor to leave their jurisdictions to protect the governor in the Capitol, while limiting the number of police and fire in their towns in which they serve.  So the teachers make more money than fireman statement makes you either ignorant or lying.  The are pretty well equal, except with the reductions by all other state employees other than fireman and police, it appears they will now be making less. 

      • Why should teachers in town A be able to lobby for the pay and benefits of teachers in town B?

        Why should taxpayers in town B have to listen to anybody from Town A?

        How many teachers so far were fired for walking off their jobs and closing school districts in Wisconsin, but you don’t think THAT’s a problem?

         

      • “So, some of the state employees unions will be kaput, but some will be intact, why, the disparity?”

        Maybe Walker didn’t want to fight the Police and Fire unions yet.  Is there some special rule book we’re unaware of that dictates how a legislative body has to deal with aspects of state government that says they can’t deal with one union unless they deal with ALL the unions?  Could we maybe get a peek at it to see what other rules Walker might be violating?

        No?

  • King of the Paupers: “Fixing” pollsYes Prime Minister
    Sir Humphrey shows Bernard how to plan questions for a poll …which will come to the direct opposite conclusion as a

    • A great TV show if you want to see how government works.  One of my faves is how Humphrey gets Hacker to back off on many occasions: by telling Hacker’s his proposal is “courageous” because Hacker knows that “courageous” decisions lose elections!

  • I also remember your reaction to public polls regarding the Obamacare monstrosity.
    I remember you, and your gallery, railing about how Obama and the Democrats were ramming stuff that the people didn’t want down their throats.
    Is that no longer true?

    Lemme guess…. it’s different somehow.

    • Lemme guess…you missed the BIG POLL results in November…the one that counts.
      Idiot.

    • Yeah … you don’t get irony either, do you? Or sarcasm, apparently.

      • Okay once again my friend I agree with you totally that the dems should have stayed, are acting like children, are irresponsible, etc. etc etc.  So, why wait for the children to return, Wisconsin is in a financial crisis, do you agree?  Since we are in a crisis, he should move forward.  So, what if the results might be questioned in the future concerning a vote without dems.  Who gives a rat’s a**?  The voters will decide who goes and stays because of their actions.  The legitmacy of votes without dems doesn’t mean squat, since those laws are in place.   Walker needs to act, millions wasted so far on additional law enforcement, etc, And we stand to lose millions more as this continues day after day, week after week, as the Republicans are too timid to carry through even though there is a lawful proven way to move without those mangy dems.

        • It is a financial crisis decades in the making and one that won’t be solved in a week or two. So again, the “financial crisis” in this situation is a red herring.

          Bottom line, Dems need to man up, show up and do their job. If they don’t like the bill, vote against it. Like the GOP did in Congress against ObamaCare. What the GOP didn’t do is run off to Canada and whine.

        • Believe you’ll find Walker is moving forward.
          Who has “wasted millions” on law enforcement?  Who has lied, cheated, and committed fraud?
          I think Walker has played this like a virtuoso.  Not the least heavy-handed, and still strong.

      • So when the polls suggest that the public doesn’t want Obamacare, you say that the Dems are shoving it down our throats.  But when polls suggest that the people of WI do not want what Walker proposes, you say that I don’t get irony … or something.
        Gotcha.

        Way to stick to your guns, McQ.

        Cheers.

        • But the “polls” are all over the map.  Some of those that agree…and are bad for Walker…are not even credible on a cursory level.
          Check them out.

        • Still not getting it are you Pogue … have another beer… it may come to you sometime tonight.

        • Pogue you get it, pretty plain to me. 

          If it’s a fiscal crisis, then get on with it. Ram it right down the Dems behinds while they are cowardly sipping Lienenkugels and eating cheddar cheese in their rooms in Peoria.  

           Oh, millions of dollars a day wasted on moving hundreds of police officers a day away from the communities where they are needed is just a red herring?  I was sure Walker said Wisconsin was in a current financial crisis.  Well at least Walker can feel safe as the police officers lock arms and keep him safe in the capitol building. 

          • It isn’t just A fiscal crisis.
            It is THIS fiscal crisis AND the ones just over the horizon.
            This one could be solved with give-backs.  It is the NEXT series that have also to be addressed.  The union bosses know all this, which is why they are casting this as a death match.
            We can’t afford to pay people multiples of what the market for their work dictates, while ALSO facing work-rules that essentially prohibit getting rid of really CRAPPY employees.
            See???

          • Well that’s telling.

          • Fiscal crisis or no, it doesn’t matter.
            Either public opinion polls drive policy, or they don’t.
            You see, here at QandO, when polls suggest that the public is against the action that they (QandO) approve of, then they don’t matter.  Like the Iraq war.  They told us, and you would see this if you searched their archives, that this is a representative democracy and those that are elected are the ones that drive policy and public polls are just snapshots and should be ignored.
            However, if public polls suggest that the public is against the action that they (QandO) disapprove of, then they definitely do matter.  Like Obamacare.  They told us that since the public is against Obamacare, then Obama and the Dems are “shoving it down our throats.”
            Now, in WI, since public polls suggest that the public is against stripping bargaining power, all of a sudden we’re back to polls don’t matter.

            Get it?
            It’s clear to me.

            It all comes down to polls only matter when they are on your side.

            Cheers.

          • No, it’s not clear to you.

            You still don’t understand the sarcasm in the post and obviously never will – you’ve decided on your position and it ain’t changin’. So don’t bother trying to lecture me on what you perceive when you haven’t yet ferreted out the meaning of the post.

            Oh, and yeah, I do know the intent of the post seeing as how I wrote it. Go ahead and try again to tell me it’s something different than I was trying to say, ‘kay?

          • Is that what this is all about?  That you think that I don’t get your casual observation of hypocrisy on the left?
            Really?

            My comment has nothing to do with that.  My comment is to point out that you yourself are guilty of using polling data to argue your case, but only when the polling data suits you.

          • Good grief man – of course I don’t have any problem using poll data. I’m not denying the poll data in the post. For heaven sake you STILL don’t get it.

            Funny, I post it on two different blogs (one a very high traffic blog) and everyone but you gets it. Says more about you than me, man.

    • Lemme guess…. it’s different somehow.

      Nope.  Not at all.  And if the GOP feels strongly enough to do it (like the Dems did) then so be it.

      Two can play the same game

      • That is the problem, the Republicans won’t move forward without the dems being there.  How silly is that when they (the repubs) can further ram it down their throats because they don’t need them to be there.  Simply create a separate bill about the banning of collective bargaining and it won’t require a quorum.  Vote completed without the dems.  The dems have already agreed (enough of them anyway) to the required budget cuts so a few would come back quickly and there would be a quorum present as is required for bills that have fiscal ramfications.  I am not saying it’s different at all, and not saying the dems are heroes for being gone.  They are stupid to be gone.  But, if it’s a financial crisis and Walker says that is the case, then he needs to be a leader and move on without them.  ,

        • That is the problem, the Republicans won’t move forward without the dems being there.  How silly is that…

          Um…it is called “the LAW”.  Is it “silly” to require the Fleebaggers to obey the law, and their oaths?  Is it “silly” to insist on passage of a durable law that will not immediately be the subject of a court challenge?
          I dun tink so, Looooosy…

          • Mr. Pierre, it is the LAW that they (the repubs) can break out the collective bargaining component of the current law, create a new bill to limit, restrict it, or eliminate it.  They then don’t need a quorum for that bill.  They can then pass it tomorrow without the dems.  Couldn’t agree more about the dems fleeing.  But see Commander Walker doesn’t need the dems to do that.  Then by Tueday, enough dems, utterly defeated, will come crawling back to the Capitol as they have already agreed to budget cuts.  Then Walker will have shown true leadership by punishing the dems.  It is indeed “silly” that Walker refuses to use exisiting laws that will allow everything to go his way.  I tink so Loooosy….

            Oh by the way I did some research on teachers vs LEO in Wisconsin.  It is underneath one of your posts.  They are about the same for now, but for teachers a bit less after Walkers bill passes.  The LEO’s benefits are quite a bit better.   

             

          • Mr. Pierre,

            I gave you the two websites I visited in my post.  While I don’t mind helping a bit, it might help if you read the posts.  Teacherportal.com and indeed.com.  Yep tink that might help you Loooosy.  As a retired LEO I know for a fact about LEO benefits being better and my research indicates that at least in Wisconsin the pay is about the same, though starting LEO’s make more that starting teachers.  Hope this helps Mr. Pierre.   Oh, by the way what about the other part of that post about the repubs not needing a quorum to pass a bill limiting, restricting, disabling, or eliminating collective bargaining?  You know it is vital to pass a durable law that will not immediately be the subject of a court challenge.   Well there is a way, Walker just needs to step up and show those dems he does not need them.

          • http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Police-Officer-l-Wisconsin.html
            http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=public+teacher&l1=Wisconsin
            http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=fireman&l1=Wisconsin

            There aren’t any links in your posts, Mr. Kevin.
            IF you annualized the pay, you will see the teachers make a LOT more than LEOs, and more still than firefighters.
            Mabe you should run for governor.  Your ass seems really smart, possessed of all the answers…that you keep chanting.

          • First of all I never said there were links, I said websites.  They speak for themselves if you even looked, or if you can even read.   Annualized or not, they are about the same, except for new teachers vs new LEO’s.  Then there is a big difference and the LEO’s have the better starting pay.  And speaking of annualization, if you consider that LEO’s can retire with full benefits years before teachers can, that evens the playing field even more.  Nothing though MR. Pierre about my other facts in the post about breaking out the collective bargaining piece though.  Would be interested in your thoughts on that.

            In any event respect the fact that you do respond, so thanks Mr. Pierre from this would be govenor who mostly chants, lies, and is a smart ass.  You got the last part right, Mr. Pierre, just nothing else.   

        • Because there is a civil process, Kevin … how many times do I have to say it. They – the Dems – agreed to it when they became a part of the process. Now, that they don’t like what is going on and they’ve lost the election and don’t have enough to stop the legislation, have decided they’ll take their ball and go home, denying the legislature a quorum by running off to IL.

          Leaders don’t condone or reward bad behavior. And again, playing the “financial crisis” red herring doesn’t make it more urgent. There’s a process, we all have agree to it. The correct position in my opinion is to make the Democrats live up to their side of the bargain. Otherwise you allow these sorts of tantrums to become the norm and civil society begins to break down even worse than it has.

  • You only needed to say it once my friend.  I get it.  It is also a civil process to proceed without them.  The repubs don’t need a quorum to bills except for bills that contain fiscal issues or matters.  They do not need a quorum to pass a bill eliminating or restricting collective bargaining.  Take the collective bargaining component out, make a new bill as the repubs see fit, and show the dems that civil processes still take place whether they are there or not.  Leaders can punish bad behavior if they will.  Here is WAlker’s chance.  Quit waiting on the stupid fleeing dems, I totally agree with you and your devoted contributors.  Make them take their medicine.  But aa it seems they aren’t, Walker can still legally and within their own rules within the senate pass the collective bargaining bill and force the dems to come back.   You know what with the red herring fiscal crisis and all, you know millions every day just because the dems aren’t there?  Walker needs to show leadership and punish bad behavior, and not let the legislative process halt, when he has the solution right in front of him to end it.  How many times do I have to say it McQ?

    • Apparently Walker doesn’t agree with your assessment and, frankly, that’s all that matters until next election.

      Walker understands something you seem not too … that rewarding bad behavior simply encourages more of it.

      Insisting they show up and do their job is leadership and I applaud his decision.

      • Your blog McQ, your ideas and thoughts, obviously welcomed.  I would have thought he would have shown that part of leadership that punishes bad behavior, that’s all.  But, Bruce at some point if this keeps dragging on he has to punish them.  But, in the end, you and I both agree elections will decide how well this all went.  Hell I applaud him as well for being man enough to push his agenda.  Sometimes you just have to accept what happens whether it is budget reform in Wisconsin or Health Care Reform in America.  As you so aptly put it (and others as well) consequences of elections and majorities.  Pease brother.

        • Right – the ballot box is where the opinion of the citizens of WI will settle the argument. Interesting that there are 16 recall drives underway right now – 8 for Dem Senators and 8 for GOP Senators. It seems no one is happy.

          And, as I’m sure you’ve noticed, most of it is now being driven by out of state organizations who’ve identified WI as the battleground for this question. So with both sides stirring up trouble there, you’re going to have to filter through the propaganda on both sides to get to the truth.

          Bottom line, Walker (or any governor) can’t accept the type actions the Dems there have undertaken and be considered any type of leader. Again, we may differ on the eventual effects of “dragging this out”, but I think in the long run, Walker wins that by sticking to his guns.

          • Okay, great discussion.  We both agree the Dems should have never left, but I also believe Walker could punish them even further.  There will be many petitions on both sides for recall, it will be interesting to see what happens.   Great thing elections.  later

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