Free Markets, Free People


Pizza? This is about slow suffocation by government (update)

Rob Port brings attention to the Papa John’s story:

At Slate, Matthew Yglesias scoffs at Papa Johns’ founder John Schnatter saying the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare, will drive up costs for his company by roughly $0.20 per order, something his company will be passing along to customers.

“Stipulating for a moment that this is true, doesn’t it seem like a rather small price to pay?” asks Yglesias.

No, it’s not small at all.

Rob then covers just the Papa John’s part of this formulation:

Papa John’s operates 3,973 restaurants. I can’t figure out how many orders the company processes daily, but let’s assume a very conservative 100 orders per store. That’s 397,300 orders every day. Adding $0.20 to ever order in additional labor costs translates into just over $29 million in additional costs for Papa Johns customers annually.

But, of course, as you’ve already figured out, if that’s true for Papa John’s, it is probably true for most other companies in the US as well.

So as Rob says, “no, it’s not small at all”.  In fact, it is potentially a huge increase in the price people will pay for all goods and services.

Papa John’s isn’t alone in seeing a price increase in their futures. As the magazine relates, in its most recent earnings call, McDonald’s said the health care plan will cost their stores an extra $10,000 to $30,000. While the vast expansion of government power involved in the bill will result in more federal expenditures, the pizza magnate’s comment highlights the fact that it will create an across-the-board surtax on virtually all expenditures by families and individuals. This will mean an increase in the cost of living that will hit the poor a lot harder than the rich the president claims to want to tax.

In fact, as pointed out, it has the same effect as a tax on the poor.

Yet the left simply seems unable to wrap their heads around that.  Here’s a commenter to the article I took the paragraph above from:

It is shocking that the CEO of Papa John’s and this magazine commentator would begrudge the near-poor workers of that company health insurance — and better healthcare for a few cents per pie!! Our country is based on the premise that we all pay a little more to help those less fortunate — the key here is “a little more.” Does anyone really object to that??

Yes. Strenuously.  And by the way, this country was not founded on the premise “that we all pay a little more to help those less fortunate” and claiming that to be so is an attempt to rewrite history.  It was about providing everyone an equal opportunity under the law to succeed while protecting their basic rights to life, liberty and property.

So we have the probability that prices will increase in the future as companies charge more for their products to cover health care.  And that brings us to a pretty basic point, here made by Bethany Mandel at Commentary Magazine:

What this person and other liberals have wrong is this: It’s not about the price of pizza. If it were actually possible to improve healthcare for millions of Americans and insure millions more, conservatives would be on board. The basis of conservative opposition to ObamaCare is this: We do not think it will help the majority of Americans. The bill is titled the “Affordable Care Act,” but does nothing to make healthcare more affordable, nor will it improve health care. In reality, it provides a worse standard of care at a higher cost.

Under ObamaCare, 17 million Americans will be added to Medicaid’s rolls in order to move some Americans from the uninsured to the insured column. Are they actually better off?

I, of course, wouldn’t be “on board” if it had to do with government intervention, however I understand the point she’s trying to make.  What has been passed won’t a) reduce costs and make health care more affordable or b) improve health care. 

It is the “big lie” writ large.  The parameters defining health care delivery are finite, not infinite.  You have 24 hours in a day and x number of providers.  Is adding 17 million to the welfare portion of government health care (the one most providers refuse to take because of the supreme hassle and low reimbursement rate) really going to improve their lives?

As Avik Roy notes, even though we’ll be paying more across the board to make it possible, probably not:

In July 2010, at National Review Online’s Critical Condition blog, I wrote about a University of Virginia study, published in Annals of Surgery, finding that surgical patients on Medicaid endured a 97 percent higher likelihood of in-hospital death than patients with private insurance, and a 13 percent greater chance of death than those with no insurance at all. I noted several other clinical studies that showed similar results.

And that’s before the 17 million are added.  This is the mess we find ourselves in when agenda driven politicians pass laws they haven’t even read over and above the objections of the majority of the people.

It’s hard to call that a “representative democracy” isn’t it?

And, no, this still isn’t about pizza.

UPDATE: Morning Bell (Heritage Foundation) weighs in:

At least 60 percent of firms are estimating Obamacare will raise their health care costs, according to a new study released Wednesday by Mercer, a human resources consulting firm. One-third of those expect a cost increase of 5 percent or more.

The study states:

The employers that will be hit hardest are those with large part-time populations—employers in retail and hospitality services. Nearly half of these employers (46%) expect PPACA will push up cost by at least 3% in 2014—and another third don’t yet know what the impact will be.

An example of the impact from the CEO of CKE Restaurants:

The money to comply with the [Affordable Care Act] must come from somewhere. We use our revenue to pay our bills and expenses, to pay down our debt, and we reinvest what’s left in our business. That’s how we create jobs. There’s no corporate pot of gold we can go to, to cover increased health care costs. New unit construction will cease if we have to allocate moneys for that construction to the ACA. And building new restaurants is how we create jobs.

As we’ve said many times before, this isn’t rocket science and they’re called “economic laws” for a reason.  Unfortunately the left continues to ignore them (or pretend they don’t exist) with predictable results.

~McQ

Twitter: @McQandO

  • Facebook
  • Twitter
  • LinkedIn
  • Tumblr
  • Digg
  • Reddit
  • email
  • Print
  • Google Bookmarks

134 Responses to Pizza? This is about slow suffocation by government (update)

  • The extreme majority of papa john stores are franchises, with far less than 50 employees and each a unique business, and most staff are part time. John Schnatter is full of it, much like anyone that doesn’t thinks preventive care doesn’t work when more than enough history and stats show it does.

    • The extreme majority of papa john stores are franchises, with far less than 50 employees and each a unique business, and most staff are part time.

      Support, please.

      John Schnatter is full of it

      Right.,,,  He didn’t build that company, and now successfully runs it.  You know more about his business than does he, right you madman?

      anyone that doesn’t thinks preventive care doesn’t work

      First, who said it doesn’t work to do some things?  Second, put up your support.  Third, it does nothing to impact communicable (think flu) disease or injuries, does it?
       

      • “He didn’t build that company”

        Rags Rags Rags, we’ve been over this, you KNOW he didn’t build that company himself!  How many times must we point this out?  It was built by ALL of us, he just managed to steal our portion and grab it all for himself through some kind of rich people trick.  I haven’t figure out how they do it yet, I think it’s one of those magician slight of hand “look over here” things.

        • @looker Who said he didn’t build it?

          • Obama said it.  And, he meant it, no matter how much people try to revise his intent.

          • @elliot The reply was to me, not about Obama. However, Obama didn’t say I didn’t build my companies, he clearly said I didn’t build it without the support of others, which is very much a fact, no matter how people try to twist it.

          • Riiiiiight – ALL of us built it, and this Papa John guy, he stole our shares, right?  He sneaked em away through legal rich guy underhanded tricks.

            We all have access to the same roads, the same schools, same cities, same ports, same airports, same power grid, same utility system.  That doesn’t mean I can finagle that access to the infrastructure into the same fortune Bill Gate’s made by, you know, actually creating a product.  BOTH of has had IDENTICAL access to ‘America’, he’s rich, and I’m having useless internet conversations with whatever you are.  See a difference here?

            Only a 5 year old, or the President, (but I may be repeating myself) thinks ‘everybody built it’ is an observation that has any meaning.

          • Again, being that you can’t read.. I never said he didn’t build his company, and neither did Obama.
            Only a complete idiot would think any of us would have the companies we do without decades of support from others, just so we could build today, and then use those same systems. Likewise, only a complete idiot would think those systems don’t need to be maintained, so we can continue to use them today and in the future.
            Seriously, repeating the out of context statement as a fact or what he actually said. makes you look very stupid.

          • I never said he didn’t build his company, and neither did Obama.

            Actually, Obama did say that.  He meant it, too.  His hostility to the private sector provides a mountain of evidence for that conclusion.

          • Only a complete idiot would think any of us would have the companies we do without decades of support from others, just so we could build today, and then use those same systems.

            Then you go find those people (who do not include Obama or his cabinet full of people who never did anything productive) and you pay those individuals back.  Your parents, mentors, or any other specific benefactors.  Just because a few people helped you doesn’t mean that anyone and everyone gets to claim credit.
            You damned liberals need to get a copy of The Little Red Hen and read it again.  All of the animals who contributed nothing to making the bread?  Yeah, that’s Obama, his bureaucrats and fellow Democrats, and useful idiots like you who enable them.
            You do what you want with your business.  You don’t owe me anything for your success.  I just ask you treat me and all other Americans, except a few handful you might have actually helped directly, with the same consideration.  In other words, piss off and mind your own business.

          • @Elliot Those individuals paid taxes just like the rest of us, paying back is actually paying for the future, our payment is the reward of doing it and profits earned.
            Teachers, police security, the military, the interstate, highways, roads, bridges, ports, is the short list of people and things, our taxes paid for, so I could create, build, and profit with my companies.
            Again, just because someone doesn’t agree with you, doesn’t make them liberal. Thinking otherwise makes you sound rather uneducated.
            I don’t owe you anything because you’re not a customer of mine. You do however, owe taxes so yourself and others can have a better life.
            So you sit here and inject your personal beliefs on me, then tell me to piss off and mind my own business? Lol… what a jackass that sits around enjoying his freedom on the backs of other peoples lives and taxes.

          • “We all have access to the same roads, the same schools, same cities, same ports, same airports, same power grid, same utility system.  That doesn’t mean I can finagle that access to the infrastructure into the same fortune Bill Gate’s made by, you know, actually creating a product”

            Read it again – we all have access to the same infrastructure, not ALL of us build companies.   If you all start from the same place the difference in who ‘wins’ is who is fastest, or smartest, builds the better product, has the better idea.  Saying we ‘all’ built it, is childish.

            The fact you can’t grasp that, elementary concept, says a lot.

          • Wasn’t the topic about he didn’t build it? Just wonder why the new lame twist… even more so when, everyone benefits from them either way. If it’s personally or businesses, we all benefit from it.

          • Not a new lame twist – the point in saying someone didn’t ‘build a company’ just because he had access to educated employees, or roads, or bridges, or power, when everyone else had precisely the same access, points out that he did in fact ‘build it’ because he had the same raw materials available everyone else had, yet he has a company, and others do not.

            Again, it’s an elementary concept.  And, again, only a 5 year old would bother to cling to the idea of pointing out that ‘other people’ helped by saying ‘he had roads, and he had bridges that he didn’t himself build!’ or ‘he could hire people to build a factory that he himself didn’t build!’.  Because only a 5 year old wouldn’t be able to appreciate that EVERYONE had the exact same access to those raw materials. It’s intuitively OBVIOUS  to a reasonably educated, thoughtful, adult. Roads, educated people, those are all forms of raw material that one builds from.   Yet not everyone builds, do they.

            So, yes, the subject is, he DID build it himself (maybe his wife helped), but the GOVERNMENT did not build it and the people of whatever town he started his first store in did not BUILD it.  He used his knowledge, his skill, more than likely his credit and his money, to BUILD it.

          • My son recently pointed out the the search for “Common Sense” has become like Diogenes search for a honest man. His point, Common Sense has been polluted. Finding it is no longer a useful goal.
            It’s now better to look for “Good Sense.”

          • Those individuals paid taxes just like the rest of us, paying back is actually paying for the future, our payment is the reward of doing it and profits earned.

            Says who?  Those with political power and influence love to claim that they are serving the public and investing in the future, when in actuality, they are lining their pockets, enjoying their lavish benefits, and spending the money of our grandchildren and great-grandchildren.
            Solyndra, for example, was promised to be an investment in the future.  Except before the Obama administration granted them a large taxpayer “investment”, it was already known that the company was too risky to warrant investment.  But they wanted to look good on camera and they wanted to pay back their friends, so we all got soaked for a total failure.
            The war on poverty?  Trillions spent, no improvement?  The war on drugs?  Same thing.  The war on terror?  More excuses to buy police departments lavish toys (Bearcats and .50 caliber guns), to molest children and old people at airports, with no demonstrable improvement in security, but a major infringement of our freedom and privacy.
            When a company which provides a service pays for the infrastructure to deliver the service through private funds, they have an incentive to spend efficiently and wisely.  And, the retail cost includes the infrastructure costs.
            On the other hand, when government pays for infrastructure, or “invests” in “partners”, or mandates monopolies, they aren’t serving the consumer, nor helping the future.  They’re paying back their contributors who benefit from cronyism, rent seeking, unnecessary regulations and licensing to squash competition, etc..
            In theory, the taxes pay for the infrastructure, which should cut down on the retail costs, but the reality is that most of the taxes end up paying for bureaucrats, boondoggles, and the like.  We end up paying much more and getting much worse results.

            Teachers, police security, the military, the interstate, highways, roads, bridges, ports, is the short list of people and things, our taxes paid for…

            Private schools outperform government schools hands down, for starters.  Teachers unions have driven up costs, made the staffing top-heavy (too many bureaucrats, too few actual teachers), kept incompetent or even dangerous teachers on the payroll sitting in rooms doing nothing because they can’t be trusted around children, and reduced the quality of education children get.  Why do you think Democrats fight school vouchers, even though the poor parents are begging for the opportunity?
            Quit collecting taxes to pay for schools and parents can afford to pay for private schools.  If you’re worried about poor children, then give to charity to help defray the cost to underprivileged.  It demonstrates far more character for you to do that, to give of your own time, money, and ideas for something you believe is essential than to stick a gun in your neighbor’s face and make him pay for inferior products he doesn’t want or need.

            …so I could create, build, and profit with my companies.

            If it benefits you, then that’s all the more reason for you to voluntarily give to charity.  There are people with no children who do not need educated people to succeed.  They should not be forced to pay, particularly since you admit that you get more benefit.

            I don’t owe you anything because you’re not a customer of mine. You do however, owe taxes so yourself and others can have a better life.

            No one owes anything to give other people a better life.  Any responsibility you have is solely due to whatever choices you make.  Being born isn’t a choice.  If you have children, you are responsible for them.  Your neighbor who elects not to have children is not responsible to help raise them.

            So you sit here and inject your personal beliefs on me, then tell me to piss off and mind my own business?

            Inject beliefs?  No.  I simply tell you to respect the rights of your neighbors.  If they don’t want or need something you think is swell, don’t stick a gun in their face (by proxy, by threat) to force them to pay for it.
            Civilized people solve problems by persuading others through reason, not by resorting to force.  Government, taxes, etc. are, by definition, the use of (or threat of) aggressive force.
            Why can’t you be civilized?

          • So you can’t see past the ObamaFuhrer’s BS sophistry?
            Come back when you graduate from Junior High.

          • @Elliot Responding back to that stupidity isn’t worth my time.

            The Gov makes investments, that’s a fact…it’s also a fact that not all work out, not even for oil and gas companies, but we see the good today those investments made, along with most others.
            Wow, more twisted trash. If you don’t like the Gov, then move to some place that has a perfect utopia, good luck. You’re like a backwards liberal, instead of save the trees it’s save each other from…each other.
            And again, more trash…like every public school is in the shitter. They fight it because it doesn’t work anywhere in the World.
            Charity does not provide all that is needed, get a clue.
            Wow, more lame and pathetic replies, after you’ve already benefited from those taxes. Either your brain is fried or you took it out and lost it.
            Why can’t you use some basic logic? Your perfect utopia of no taxes, every helping each other, and no gov is complete hogwash. Your ideals are nothing more than a new flavor of twisted liberalism.

        • Actually that was one over Obama’s bow, not Madder’s.

        • Why don’t you tell us all about the company you run that you built, or, did not build, whichever phrasing you like to use.  You don’t need to provide any identifying details – you know, tell us about your products, how many employees you have, that sort of thing.  You can do that without revealing anything at all.

          • I own several companies, I am an entrepreneur.  My main company today is a holistic company located in Canada, with distro companies in Dallas and Tucson, and 34 stores and products in 100′s of stores across the World. I own several other companies as well, I’m not sure you would understand what they do, DMCA company – it sends take down notices for people that own content which has been pirated, a 3rd processor visa/mc reg company – it signs contracts for international companies that typically can’t process within the U.S. Region. Next is a marketing company that groups fishing guides together in Texas….. and we’re in the process of opening a Smoothie shop in Tucson.
            Employee wise, the biggest has 65 – I only know this because we hired 5 more and I asked how many that was now. In total across all companies it’s about 120 employees, my smallest has 5.
             

          • He peddles ether.

          • Perhaps he’s into sequestration of man made gases.

          • As expected…nothing but immature replies.

          • Did you accomplish all that on Second Life?

          • Dude, you’re not even American.

        • When we’re (or obama) talking about paying taxes and it being fair, and those that have the money paying more, like our progressive tax system is setup to do, all to rebuilding what we have, fund teachers, police, etc… then yes, you would talk about what supports and help builds a business.
          Again, that is what was being talked about… not some other lame twist.

      • He built to the size he is on franchises, he doesn’t own all the shops. Stop being a lazy troll and research it yourself. Truly, lol, that you don’t know this.
        Did I say he didn’t build it? No…..
        You can find a ton of research on preventive care, it’s your choice to stay uneducated if you like. Clearly you should start with what preventive care is.
         

        • You can find a ton of research on preventive care…

          Nobody here seems to be claiming that preventative care is not a good idea.
          The issue is why the hell should Peter pay for Paul to have preventative care?  Paul should pay his own doctor bills.  Paul should similarly pay for his own oil changes, roof replacements, etc..  It’s the same ethical principles and you’re falling for the lie that because it involves health care, the ethics somehow change.

          • I was asked for a support on my statement, I assume that means proof/links/research…
            Because we’re Americans, and as a Marine, why would you pay me to keep you free? Or why would you pay for my Vet care? It’s not different simply because I kept you free. And we have no social help for medical care for families that earn a living wage but go bankrupt due to medical costs, but we do for having a roof over your head, even if it’s not your own roof.
             

          • …as a Marine, why would you pay me to keep you free?

            How did you keep me free?  Veterans of WW II or who those provided strategic defence during the Cold War could possibly have a valid claim to helping to defeat or deter those who could possibly have done harm to Americans.  But all the proxy wars and nation building exercises did nothing for my rights.
            But when it comes down to it, I’d rather have the option to handle my own security than to be taxed for wars I find immoral, massive boondoggle spending (earmarks), or endless security for other nations (Europe, Japan, Korea) who can afford to defend themselves now.

            “And we have no social help for medical care for families that earn a living wage but go bankrupt due to medical costs…

            Your use of “we” is an example of the Fallacy of the Collective.  Charity can help people who fall into financial despair, and if the government quit taxing us to pay for it’s failed social spending, then we could afford to spend far more money on charity.

            …but we do for having a roof over your head, even if it’s not your own roof.

            I have no idea what you intended by that statement.

          • @Elliot Handle your own security….. wow, aren’t you a thick one. I can see replying to you will only produce more pathetically stupid statements.
            Charity clearly does not cut it if “we” as in Americans (thick one) don’t actually help everyone.
            Sorry you’re not able to understand clearly written English.

        • People have to eat Madder, should I be feeding them?  Not to do so could lead to their illness, or death.

          People have to have shelter, should I be sheltering them?  Not to do so could lead to their illness, or death.

          You’ve just decided that ‘health’ is somehow a need that is different from eating, or drinking, or shelter.   Since they’re all tied I don’t see how if I take responsibility for someone’s health that it’s impossible to imply an implicit responsibility for every other thing about them that keeps them alive.

        • You sure are brainwashed. Not a single month has gone by in the last two years in which some new problem was revealed about Obamacare, It’s unsustainable costs, It’s destruction of the private health insurance industry, It’s lack of choices for individuals.

          You are indeed a really stupid brainwashed little left winger. You claim that all the other advanced nations have a socialized system. Well, yes, and in case you haven’t noticed THEY ARE NEARLY ALL BANKRUPT YOU RETARD!

          • It funds the private healthcare industry, it is impossible that it’s destroying it. Being that it’s a publicly funded healthcare system, it’s more than sustainable.
            Sorry chump, just because people don’t agree with your uneducated rants, doesn’t make them a left winger.
            They are NOT nearly bankrupt, at all… Canada & Germany are the first to come to mind that are not anywhere near bankruptcy. And Countries that are having issues, like the UK, took the funds, invested them, and lost them, it wasn’t the healthcare system that screwed them, it was crony politics – which is exactly what happened to Medicare here.
            Clearly, you’re the brainwashed one.

          • …it is impossible that it’s destroying it.

            Not only is it possible to state that, it fills one with the satisfaction of knowing that one is speaking the truth, not falling for the smoke and mirrors.

            Being that it’s a publicly funded healthcare system, it’s more than sustainable.

            Oh lord, but you are a stupid one.

            And Countries that are having issues, like the UK, took the funds, invested them, and lost them, it wasn’t the healthcare system that screwed them…

            Of course it’s the NHS that screwed them.  The conditions of many hospitals, especially for elderly care, are deplorable.  That’s because people have no choice and those who work there get paid no matter how poorly they serve the nominal customers.  The problem is that the doctors work for the NHS, not for the patients.  ObamaPelosiCareTax implements the same nightmare, which is driving physicians and medical students away, and which will lead to a massive shortage of doctors.

          • @Elliot Again, it’s impossible… if you believe it’s smoke and mirrors, then I know I’m right.
            It is a publicly funded healthcare system, I really don’t care if you accept that fact or not.
            Lol, if profits drive away doctors, then those were bad doctors.

          • …if profits drive away doctors, then those were bad doctors.

            Do you understand that regardless of your ignorant assumption about the quality of people who opt to do something beside be doctors, a shortage of doctors is a very bad thing, all around?
            Either there will be long waiting lists or increased costs–or even both.  If the government decides to take measures to increase the supply of doctors, there will be a glut of incompetent, stupid people getting medical licenses.
            You need to take a basic economics class.  Study supply and demand.  Few doctors is a bad thing, contrary to your smug attempt to excuse it as a purge of the riff-raff.

        • Actually preventative care is not the cost panacea you seem to think it is.
          Perhaps you should be doing the research.

      • Oh yeah… and the point was he’s full of it, it will not cost him more money and he will not have to pass it down to consumers. He has refused to backup his numbers or show how he came up with them, because he is full of it.
        At that, his franchises would have to cover it, not him.. again, making him full of it. And his franchises will be able to shop around for better rates, unlike now, thus costing them less for better care.
        And, his low paying $6-7 an hour drivers, will pay so little to zero.
        I already know you refuse to do any research on this, and clearly you do not own any businesses, unlike me. Obamacare, in no way, will cost me or my employees any money, at that, it has already saved us money in many various ways. From dropping rates for female staff, to pre-existing condition folks within smaller companies not jacking up rates, to refunds on premiums that didn’t get used up.
        But again… I know you will not do any research on this, it’s not like others probably haven’t shown you this, but like most, you refuse the information and draw back into your world of made up beliefs.

        • …like most, you refuse the information and draw back into your world of made up beliefs.

          The belief that ObamaPelosiCareTax will not be a disaster for doctors and patients is the true fantasy.  A few people who couldn’t afford insurance, who get “free” insurance paid for by the taxpayers, will benefit.  Everyone else will pay more and get less.
          Why do you think they had to take the Medicare doc-fix out of the budget calculations?  They knew it would be passed, just like in previous years, but they pretended it wouldn’t.

          • It hasn’t destroyed other Countries but yet you don’t think America can do it? That’s rather sad. I own a company in Canada as well, lived in Canada for two years, the service and care, was on par with ours. And before you say, they have a shortage of doctors, based on a percentage of population, they have just as many.
            Medicare is already a publicly funded system, which was not killing States until they invested its money into our markets, and the market crashed.
            Actually, most will pay less, 2.5% of your income is less than you pay now and being that it has a requirement for companies to either offer better insurance and/or it allows for you to shop around, it’s basically impossible that anyone will get less.
            My wife’s company has more than 50 staff, the penalty is more than they pay for employees, and they don’t have to change what they provide now. However, they are interested in the ability to shop around to get even better insurance, for possibly a less cost to them…. something most people seem to ignore.

          • “However, they are interested in the ability to shop around to get even better insurance,”

            And HOW did requiring a penalty to be paid for no insurance translate to “the ability to shop around”?

            You spent the better part of that saying NOTHING – you threw out unsubstantiated number and percentages, declared we would pay less, indicated it would magically cause the offer of ‘better’ insurance, indicated it would be impossible to get less insurance (more magic) – cited your wife’s company, claimed the penalty is more than the insurance, which based on number’s I’ve already seen, is not true and translated that to ‘better insurance’ and ‘shopping around’.

            The system was DESIGNED to get companies to drop their insurance, pay the penalty, and force the government to invent a single payer, government run program.

          • It hasn’t destroyed other Countries but yet you don’t think America can do it? That’s rather sad.

            Did you know that ObamaPelosiCareTax prohibits by law any new or expanded doctor-owned hospitals?  How are poor kids with cancer going to be helped when the doctors who would like to build a cancer ward (or start a new hospital) in reasonable distance to the sick kids can’t do it because Pelosi and Obama made a pact with the American Hospital Association (AHA) in exchange for their support?
            It’s all a scam.  They intend for private insurance to fail, at which point they will swoop in and “rescue” us all with NHS-style government takeover.
            Also, the law, as passed imposed a massive cost on entrepreneurs by requiring 1099 forms for every damned thing.  Once politicians realized the devastating impact, they reversed it.  But plenty of other little surprises have not been reversed.

          • So you’re saying they can invest in it but not own it… okay.
            Do you realize every country with a social type healthcare system / publicly funded system, makes changes to improve it? It’s never perfect, they all require adjustments. But hey, it’s only an issue for America, or rather, for right wing extremists that hate America.

          • So you’re saying they can invest in it but not own it… okay.

            How is that “OK” in any way, shape, or form?  Please explain how Section 6001 of ObamaPelosiCareTax actually helps to accomplish any of the goals that the proponents claim that the law addresses?  Does it lower costs?  Does it offer more options?  Does it improve care?  No, no, and no.
            It’s a pure political payback which reduces options and arbitrarily limits freedom.  And, that’s only one of dozens of little surprises in the bill that are now coming out, to expose the lies of its supporters, and the gullibility of useful idiots like you, who say things like:

            Do you realize every country with a social type healthcare system / publicly funded system, makes changes to improve it? It’s never perfect, they all require adjustments.

            In other words, “good and necessary”.  Is your name Traeumen, by chance?

            But hey, it’s only an issue for America, or rather, for right wing extremists that hate America.

            Anyone who understands what it means to be an American, not simply a resident of the US, but an actual American, knows that individualism is the cornerstone.  Big government mandates are the antithesis of individualism and are as anti-American as they come.
            Oh, and the “left” and “right” thing comes from a revolution against a monarchy two centuries ago, and is as worthless as trying to describe the religious views of people around the world by only discussing transubstantiation, and nothing else.  Not to mention, two of the worst mass murderers in history who both engaged in nearly parallel methods of ruling, Hitler and Stalin, are stupidly put as far apart as possible on that worthless one-dimensional scale.

        • Where, did he say it would cost HIM?  He said it would raise the price of pizza, he didn’t say it would come out of his pocket.

          I could be wrong, how many corporations did you build and do you run?

          “And, his low paying $6-7 an hour drivers, will pay so little to zero.”
          Really? then why are those who CAN afford to do so, paying a penalty when they don’t have insurance?  You’re willing to cut the driver’s slack?  Wasn’t the purpose to collect money to pay for the ‘free loaders’?  How does that penalty help pay for them Madder?  Where is the health insurance for the driver coming from?  Are you tacitly admitting that it’s nothing more than wealth re-distribution and the goal really WASN’T to insure those drivers in the first place?    They don’t pay a penalty, but they have no insurance….how are they fixing the ‘freeloader’ problem this way Madder?

          See if you can actually, you know, answer THAT question without heading off into some smoke filled tangent.


           

          • @looker 2.5% is what is actually in the law. The percentage of population is lower in Canada, that is a fact. They have a ratio of doctors on par with ours when population is factored in, that fact is the same across every 1st World Country.

            You haven’t seen any numbers…. if you want to see numbers, call up a local insurance provider, and ask them how much a staff of 5, 25, 50 and 150 will cost you per staff and the premiums for it. It’s not really hard to find out the real numbers.
            Where did I say it would cost him? That’s kinda the point of him passing it on, either to customers or his franchises, clearly he isn’t paying for it.
            Yes, really, if they’re poor, then they don’t have to pay if the company isn’t. Otherwise, they pay a very little amount, it’s about $50 a year. The drivers would be covered either way, even if they don’t make enough to pay for it and the company is small enough it doesn’t have to, they’re still covered.
            People with jobs aren’t free loaders, the extreme majority of of people in this Country are not free loaders.
            Smoke filled tangent, like the one you just spewed?
             

          • yeah, I understand the penalty is pro-rated or non-existent.  I also know that the cost of paying the penalty is cheaper than premiums.

            Call an agent?  – never really done that, have you – what, you think they just toss out a number based on a single phone call?

            How old are you, really?

          • Lol…. I’ve gotten many quotes over the years, that’s what they are, quotes, they take about 15 minutes, often you can do it right online, in a single form. You can also do estimates for business plans, but lol… clearly you’ve never ran a business and probably should just shut up.

          • And clearly, you’re blowing smoke, and anyone who HAS run a business knows it.

             

          • Knowing that you’ve never ran a company makes your statement laughable at best.

          • ‘run’, never ‘run’, and yes, actually, I have, but do carry on.

          • Without question, you’ve never owned a company or ran one to a level that dealt with insurance, for sure if you think it’s some big hard task that you can’t just call up and verify rates yourself… it makes your rant, laughable and pathetically stupid.

          • No, actually, I understand the complexities in your employee mix with regard to married, single, with and without dependents, age, sex, and how it changes the premiums, whether or not I’m willing to contribute more or less of the company earnings to offset the cost for the employees.  Social security payments, FICA contributions, the nasty little forms required quarterly by state and federal government.  Oh yes, I’ve signed and dated all those nasty little things, and the checks that go with them.

            I owned a software and consulting company in Texas….so…tell us about your little empire.  TWO accountants, far more than I ever needed, you must have some reason to boast.

          • Well then… if you’ve actually given that information to a insurance company for a quote, then you know that the cost was below Obamacare’s tax, even before the changes. Before Obamacare, if a person had a pre-existing condition and you were a small company, your premiums went up or if everyone smoked, the premiums went up – for larger companies, this was absorbed in the cost – so much so a pre-exsiting condition couldn’t be denied – unlike with small companies. Now if the company didn’t want to pay a dime, then those unique persons had more expensive costs, but not anymore, because of Obamacare, including for women.
            Even with dental and eyes added in, it’s still cheaper than the tax, and Obamacare doesn’t cover those.

          • No, it was not.   But as i say, carry on.

            Here’s what’s going to happen -
            http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/10/obamacare-will-price-less-skilled-workers-out-of-full-time-jobs

            It will take you less time to read than ‘the law’ did.

            Your Canadian companies won’t have to worry, will they, but that shop in Tucson, well…..

          • “obamacare” cannot control ‘costs’ until it controls the market, which is the plan, ultimately, to control the health care industry and make it government run.

            But continue, entrepreneur, it’s, entertaining.

        • My rates keep going up. And they keep sending me letters talking about how Obamacare might mean my insurance plan will no longer be offered. But you go ahead and believe increased costs don’t affect businesses.
          I bet you started that business in Canada when the loonie was weak. But now its high. But that doesn’t affect you because the gnome underpants, right?

          • Let’s attempt to use some logic… your rates have always gone up. Let’s apply more logic, without some type of reform/regs, they will never stop going up or get under control or level off. And even more logic, you get refunded on your premiums which offsets your increases. Bam!
            The reason your insurance plan wouldn’t be offered is because it sucks. Meaning, you’ll get a better policy and spend less doing so.
            Actually, no… I started this particular business in Canada when they were about equal. I keep the money in the Canadian business, so high or low it doesn’t affect me at all.
             

    • “The extreme majority of papa john stores are franchises, with far less than 50 employees and each a unique business, and most staff are part time.”

      And your argument is what….that these franchises won’t feel any cost from Obamacare?    Well, Mad, who’s going to compensate the 50 employees in such a way they can pay for the insurance that the government MANDATES?  Is that money going to come from their employer in the form of increased wages maybe? or is it going to magically appear from the sky, or are we going to tax the rich to get it?

      Or is it all free in your universe?
       

      • Correct, the franchises will have that choice, if they don’t already provide insurance… and if they do, they will have more options to shop around, if they don’t offer better insurance already.
        The cost is rather low unless I don’t provide it and they make a great deal of money, which it’s still low as a % of income.
        It depends on how much money you make.
        You should actually educate yourself on the law before talking about it. I have accountants and lawyers, Obamacare will not cost us a dime more because we already provide great insurance.

        • Why do you or anyone else get to decide for Papa John’s or any other company whether they offer health insurance for their employees?
          The fact is that ObamaPelosiCareTax will NOT do the things promised.  It will not lower costs.  It will not improve service.  It will squash freedom.  It will cause prices to skyrocket and quality to plummet.  It has already motivated doctors to retire or switch to specialities, and would-be doctors to switch from the medical field to something else.  When there is a huge shortage of doctors, what then?
          Why can’t you just do the ethical thing and butt the hell out of everyone else’s business?  If you offer insurance to your employees, great for you.  Nobody should force you to do anything different.  And, it’s unethical for you to not give others the same consideration.

          • It’s already done what they said it would… it’s already improved services for women and pre-existing condition folks greatly.
            Medicare didn’t swash your freedom.
            Prices go down with more people in the pool, which is why other countries spend less than we do, per person and as a percentage of gdp.
            Preventive care will create less future strain on doctors, just like it does in every other Country.
            Ethical thing? Like insurance companies dropping sick kids because it will make stock values go down?
            I’m more for America and Americans getting the help they need, even if they don’t think they need it. Much like not everyone supports, likes, or condones war of any kind, but I still served for the great good, and not for a few that do not support it.

        • Ah, YOU’VE read the law have you?  This business of educating myself, I should, what, take which set of numbers from where, since they keep adjusting them?  I’m supposed to believe government organizations that can’t even honestly report the number of unemployed Americans from one quarter to the next?

          • Yes, many times, along with my accountants and lawyer, and with other businesses in the chamber.
            Lame excuse… most numbers have not adjusted, the services covered have been adjusted to better layout what they do and do not cover, and situations.
            Ahh, I see you’re just a anti-gov conspiracy nut with nothing but lame statements to spew.

          • And you, are about 16 years old.

          • Many times, with accountants and lawyers too – my, how powerful you must be.

          • Lol, yes, businesses have accountants. I have two that work for me and one I hire yearly for taxes. And again, lol, yes, business lawyers are rather common, he owns his own company, we pay him a retainer, he goes over contracts, our minutes, company structures, another words – he knows businesses law. Common stuff for most companies.
            Calling me a 16 year old, really makes you look stupid, when I clearly know this and you clearly are clueless.

          • Two accountants, AND a tax accountant, my my, you must be a decent size operation.

          • Are there knights and footmen too?   Vast stables?  A game preserve for royal outings?

          • Given that this is the internet, and I COULD claim to be a long lost Romanov heir, I’ll restrict my claim to a very nice estate in the Hampton’s with a small but dedicated staff to attend to my needs.

          • Lol… again, clearly you’ve never owned a business.

          • Well, that makes one of us Madder.



             

    • …anyone that doesn’t thinks preventive care doesn’t work when more than enough history and stats show it does.

      Work for whom?  For the people who get freebies they would never elect to pay for in a free market?  Sure, I guess.  Work for the people who foot the bill by paying higher taxes and increased cost of goods and services?  No.
      Preventative care will likely help you avoid blowing the engine in your car, or having your air conditioner or water heater go out.  But who the hell thinks that someone else is obligated to pay for your oil changes or repairman visits?
      Since you think preventative care works for you, then you have a wonderful incentive to use the money you earn by working to pay for doctor visits and lab tests.  Right?  Or does it only “work” if taxpayers are forced to pay your bills?
       

      • Sounds like you need to research what preventative care is and how greatly benefits a company.

        • Preventative care on my vehicles, appliances, etc. helps me a great deal and I’m all for it.
          But if I shove a gun in your face and force you to pay for my oil changes and the like, then it doesn’t matter how much it benefits me–I’d be a rotten thief.
          Why are doctor visits and lab tests somehow special that they are exempted from the usual ethical rules?

          • Then don’t drive a car, that’s your choice… you being born here, is not your choice, you getting dropped from insurance you paid into over your life, is not your choice either, a kid living in a poor home that can’t afford it, is not a choice.

          • I’ve read enough of this puke’s posts to know he is an(other) idiot, who is arrogant about being an idiot.
            There seems to be so many of these types today…

          • you being born here, is not your choice

            Staying here is, you moron.  Let me know where I can send my share of your relocation costs to France.  K?

          • Mad, don’t tell me about “choice” when you’re defending a law which denies people choices and pays for helping the poor by sticking a gun in the face of taxpayers.

          • Lol, yes you have to pay taxes, yes you will have more choices with healthcare, but that’s not the choices we’re talking about.

        • @Ragspierre Where did I say staying here wasn’t a choice? I’m pretty sure I said being born here.
          And of course, kids have no choice, folks with extreme conditions have no choice, most young people have no choice, and about half the Country that doesn’t have enough money have no choice.
          Of course if you want to migrate to another location in the world, and you can, then have at it… could you list off the 1st world Countries where you would move, and put your kids into good schools and get yourself a good job, that doesn’t have some type of social healthcare?
          You’re just another troll… with nothing but insults to spew, take a hike little man.
           

          • “about half the Country that doesn’t have enough money have no choice.”

            whaaaaat?
            http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/27/politics/btn-health-care/index.html

            dude, here, numbers, from a source even I don’t trust -
            uninsured Americans – 16.3 of the total population.
            Americans 25-34 without insurance – 28.4%
            Americans with PRIVATE health insurance – 64%
            Americans with Government health insurance – 31%


            Word – shut up, you’re beclowning yourself.  You clearly are talking through your hat.

            Is that you Barack?

          • See those two numbers – 64% and 31% – let me help – elementary math says that 95% of the country has health insurance TODAY.

            Not my numbers, CNN’s numbers.  Where are yours?  I’d particularly like to see the ‘half the country (50%) number you were so free with.
             

          • He’s talking about staying here (in the Country) is a choice, my statement is saying about half do not have enough money to just move, thus they don’t have a choice.
            Try to stay up with the conversation… at least attempt it.

          • I stand corrected.

            I would submit it’s considerably more than half the country though, try the vast majority.  :)

             

        • It has never been proven that preventive medical coverage costs less.  It always ends up costing more.

          • Canada has done a great deal of research on this subject… it does save money and it saves lives, you can google the research, it’s been researched far more than you’ll ever be able to read.
            Not even research in the States shows it costs money, they’ve proven it saves lives, and nothing has shown it costs more. What’s in question here is how much can it save, and where – and on the flip, when does it not matter. Being that we don’t know, we can’t say “here” that it does save money, but without question they know it doesn’t cost money. If you catch cancer early on, a shit ton of money is saved, that is without question. If you catch TB, it’s caught, that’s it… money is spent either way. So the question isn’t does it, it’s how much does it.
            As well, a saved life, is a working body in the economy… and I don’t need to explain how much money that produces and saves.

          • But he’s done the research!
            http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2009/08/congressional-budget-expert-says-preventive-care-will-raise-not-cut-costs/

            Also, Papa Johns owns 20% of their own stores, not a small number.

            While Papa John’s as a whole employs 16,500 people, 80 percent of the company’s restaurants are independently owned franchises. As long as a franchise owner does not employ more than 50 people, he or she does not have to pay for employee health insurance.

          • @Harun
            Lol… did you read the article? It doesn’t disprove the savings, it says they happen, but in some areas they don’t, and that it will probably balance out… but being that we don’t have this type of system, it’s a bit hard to say if it will or not, here. That doesn’t mean it won’t save money.
            Wow, 20%? So he employs 3300 people, not all of which are full time? And he already offers insurance, so he doesn’t have to pay a penalty but… maybe, and that’s a big maybe, offer slightly better insurance, which he can now shop around, get credits for, etc?
            So, he’s full of shit basically.

          • Yeah, I’m pretty sure you’re about 18 – too many “lol’s” and too much time talking down to people, correction, not just talking down, but calling them idiots.

            You’re about as much an high flying international entrepreneur as I am an emperor.  How long did it take you to find a bio on-line from someone who’s actually running something.

  • “Our country is based on the premise that we all pay a little more to help those less fortunate — the key here is “a little more.” Does anyone really object to that??”
    I’ve seen this sort of thing before and it is odd when it happens because it is hard to believe when the idea is put forth.  Essentially it is this: taxes and charity are the same thing.  Now for those that know the difference between giving and taking this idea is absurd on its face.  That said, if you’re of the view that the money the government lets you keep is a government expenditure it implies that your money belongs to the government first.
    The other obvious counter to this is that the government does a poor job at welfare and better system for dealing with poverty should be considered.  What is going on now is an expensive boondoggle and Obamacare simply piles on.

    • “That said, if you’re of the view that the money the government lets you keep is a government expenditure it implies that your money belongs to the government first.”
      Not just your money…everything….the labor, the material – effectively YOU.

      But the people who believe the government “let’s me keep my money” are by and large childish morons that I’m no longer willing to tolerate and they can barely reason that there’s a back side to a piece of paper that’s laying face up on a desk.

    • Note also that the prevaricating prick Yglesias, like Obama and many other Democrats, revises history to insert some modern liberal idea into the founding of the country.
      Similarly, Obama recently asserted that the government created the Internet to allow businesses to sell products.
      Next, they’ll tell us the Romans advanced engineering with the purpose of making Blackberries.

  • I doubt the few people—only the most dogmatic ideologues—would complain about paying 11-14 cents more per pizza to pay for employee health insurance.  You talk about economic laws like the laws of physics—they’re not.  But even laws of physics are not immutable.

    • Nonsense. Again, you miss the point — it’s not just paying that much on just pizza, it’s about paying that much on every item you buy.

    • Yeah, sure, it’s only 11-14 (it wasn’t what he said, which was 20, but as long as we’re blowing off the cost to other people….)

      And for the next thing it’ll only be another 10, and for the thing after that, another 13, and for the thing after that, another 25, and for that really important thing after that, which we ALL agree is necessary, well, that’s just another 40.

      Good of you to be so casual with other people’s money, bein as it’s only (waaaahahahahahahaha) 11-14 cents and all.

       

    • If you ASK me for money to help someone in identifiable need, chances are I will give.
      If you TELL me you are TAKING my money to redistribute to someone, I will fight you as the thief you are.

    • Tad, if your bank charged you 20 cents every single time you purchased something, you’d scream bloody murder about it.  As a result of this ill-conceived law, the effect will be the same:  you’ll be charged an additional 20 cents for everything.  So why aren’t you screaming bloody murder?

      • cause he doubts that few people will complain, and besides, we’re talkin bout Papa John’s and he doesn’t like Pizza all that much, and when he DOES order some, he orders from Domino’s, so, see, this doesn’t affect him :)

      • There is that new agency that will stop the banks from doing that.
        You know, the agency without a budget from Congress, that has one guy as its head and who was appointed without /senate approval…

         

    • Tad, how much will you force someone to pay, in addition to the free market value, before you’re satisfied that they’ve done their “duty” and taken care of everyone else?  What’s your price to stop shoving a gun in the face of people who work to earn money?

    • Eff you. YOU pay extra for my pizza then. 10 cents for pizza, multiplied by how many hundreds of times other businesses pass it along? Death by a thousand cuts. I earn my money don’t you dare to tell me what I shouldn’t mind paying for. You’re so broad minded YOU should buy me a free pizza then

    • Hey Tad, do you understand that this country was founded by people who did in fact grudge having to pay a little more for tea?

  • I guess this makes all of us dogmatic ideologues

    • I told you the left is economically clueless … this just confirms it. And they have to rationalize their ignorance somehow, so they accuse the rest of us of being “dogmatic ideologues”. It’s like economics is a foreign language to them.

      • Well…and morality

      • I try not to start my day assuming everyone around me won’t mind paying (pick an amount) extra for ANYTHING, least of all some  fantasy project that will make me feel all warm and fuzzy and generally good about myself and the President.

        After that the day generally takes care of itself as I hop from place to place not thinking of ways to spend other people’s money.

  • Just get a job working for the pizza joint and if your manager is a crusading class warfare ideologue, your pizza is free!

  • This country needs a divorce. It’s just two diametrically opposing views. Mad Hatter and the Erbs of the world refuse to bow to reality.

  • I call BS on Papa John.

    I know a manager of one of the corporate owned restaurants, and he’s the ONLY full time employee they have, and is not allowed to have any more full time employees. There are probably a few bigger stores that might have 2 whole full time employees. These full time employees in the restaurants, along with about 1300 employees in the corporate offices and the distribution centers, already have health insurance, and it is extremely unlikely that the coverage is either so crappy that they would have to pay a penalty, or so awesome (premiums exceeding $10,200 for individuals or $27,500 for a family (not including vision and dental benefits) starting in 2018). There is NO requirement that Papa John offer health insurance to their 14000 part time employees. Good news for Papa, a whole lot of those part time employees are under 26, and can now be covered under their parents plan.

    The only place I can possibly see this costing Papa more (than normal health insurance inflation) is if they have high turnover of full time employees and they have unusually long waiting periods. The new law prohibits employers from imposing waiting periods of longer than 90 days, so if they have 6 month or 12 month waiting periods, that could be a increased expense. But if they have a 6 month or 12 month waiting period, they are d-bags.

    You can read the Papa John’s annual report at their IR page. But here’s what is says about the status of their employees:

    “As of December 25, 2011, we employed approximately 16,500 persons, of whom approximately 14,400 were restaurant team members, approximately 700 were restaurant management personnel, approximately 600 were corporate personnel and approximately 800 were QC Center and our wholly-owned print and promotions subsidiary, Preferred Marketing Solutions, Inc. (“Preferred”) personnel. Most restaurant team members work part-time and are paid on an hourly basis.”

    But here’s the thing, we already pay the cost of Papa John’s health care coverage in the price of their pizzas, but for the nearly 14000 employees who won’t get coverage from Papa John’s, we are paying for their medical expenses in our taxes TODAY. That will be fewer thanks to the rule that allows a lot of them to stay on their parents plan until 26.

    We should dump the employer based health insurance in this country (meaning kill the tax deductions) and let everyone fend for themselves (maybe make it deductible for individuals instead?). It would free people from being tied to their employers over health insurance, and it would fundamentally change the group dynamics between people who have good employer based insurance, people who don’t, and people on Medicare. Put ‘em all in the same boat and see how that floats.

    • “But here’s the thing, we already pay the cost of Papa John’s health care coverage in the price of their pizzas, but for the nearly 14000 employees who won’t get coverage from Papa John’s, we are paying for their medical expenses in our taxes TODAY. “

      No Cap, WE are not, if you mean as taxpayers – the government only covers 31% of the population in it’s health system.  If you mean I’m paying extra to hospitals, or insurance, to cover the uncovered – well, maybe, in a way, but it’s not through my Federal taxes.  that was the hook I was saying you swallowed a couple of McQ’s posts ago.

      It’s ALSO however, the reason you should be against government doing this, because, IF they can get you to believe that they pay for your health care, than it’s but a small step to get you to agree that we need to prevent people from drinking booze, or eating butter, I mean, after all those things are BAAAAAAAAD for you, and “I’M PAYING FOR YOUR HEALTH CARE, SO I’M THE DAD, AND YOU WILL STOP NOW BECAUSE I SAY SO. IT’S COSTING ME MONEY!”

      Let that gorilla into your tent man, and he’s going to eat, sleep, and shit wherever he wants.

      • You’re crazy. Like somebody gonna try to ban salt or big drinks. Crazy.

      • “No Cap, WE are not, if you mean as taxpayers – the government only covers 31%”

        We pay for the healthcare of the uninsured, through taxes (federal, state, and local) and through prices, both of health care directly, and for the cost of health care in the products and services we buy.

        As to your 31% number, that is the absolute minimum you could ascribe to federal spending, but the reality is that 50% of health care costs are paid by federal, state, or local governments, and of the the 35% covered by private insurance and the other 15% non-government out-of-pocket payment, you can’t forget the tax subsidy for this insurance, estimated at $200,000,000,000 per year.

        In all, about 60% of healthcare costs are paid, pass through, or are subsidized in America through government at one level or another. it is just such an impossibly malfunctioning system that we spend more per capital than any other country, and get less and less every year. We could fund the public portion of universal health care with just the money that passes through government today.

        Here’s an anecdotal story of a nice lady who had the same opinion as you, until real life kicked in…

        http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/07/12/how-i-lost-my-fear-universal-health-care

        • Are you telling me that, oh, I don’t know, Presbyterian Health care corporation passes along it’s unpaid liabilities that resulted from failure to receive payment from the uninsured to the government, either of Texas or the US?

          Is that what you’re saying?   I just picked Presbyterian at random, because I use them when I manage to do something foolish  :)

          • No, I am telling you exactly what I said, no more, no less. We do pay for unpaid services to private providers in the form of higher health care costs, and then we pay for higher health care costs both in private insurance premiums (which are mostly employer based, and receive tax subsidies) and public insurance, which are taxpayer paid.

            But there is another we pay. Uninsured patients, who are not likely to pay, ar often billed as much as 10 times the normal rate, and the effect of that is in part borne by people who actually pay, but the vast majority is written off. But it is written off at ten times the normal rates and goes against their profits reducing their taxes, creating yet another subsidy.

            Normally, if you don’t get paid for a product or service you provide, you can write off the amount billed against your taxes, and assuming you have taxable income, it will be reduced. But imagine if you sold a product at $100, but you could bill the uncollected sales at $1000. Let’s make it simple and assume it’s an S corp with straight passthrough to individual income taxes. You would save 35% of that $1000.00 on your taxes, or three times what would have received if it were billed per usual.

            This of course goes back to the nightmare of a crony tax system we have saddled ourselves with.

          • “This of course goes back to the nightmare of a crony tax system we have saddled ourselves with.”

            Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!   well, maybe    :)

          • Still, what you’re pointing out is they write taxes off, they pay less – so the implication is the government is making up that ‘loss’ in some other way, like taxing me more to cover it.  That’s not happening – they’re taxing me whatever they want, to pay for whatever give-away they are currently financing.    It’s not a one for one where they say “we’re losing revenue here, so we’re going to tax more over here to compensate”.    Let’s face it, they’re going to tax whatever they want.     But that’s not the GOVERNMENT’S money that they’re letting the hospitals keep, it’s the hospital’s money and you can’t blame them for creatively trying to recover the ‘loss’.

            meh, we’ve gone round and round on this – we agree, the tax system sucks, however it got there, and what ever they’re doing with it,  we’ve established the tax system is a means of (crony) pay off in one way or another.

             

  • Romney showed some balls and picked Ryan. Folks, America is now going to have this conversation. Let these pricks telling me I shouldn’t mind paying more for my pizza and everything else proclaim it loudly to the nation.

  • Douglas W. Elmendorf, director of the Congressional Budget Office, offered a skeptical view Friday of the cost savings that could result from preventive care — an area that President Obama and congressional Democrats repeatedly had emphasized as a way health care reform would be less expensive in the long term.
    Obviously successful preventive care can make Americans healthier and save lives. But, Elmendorf wrote, it may not save money as Democrats had been arguing.
    “Although different types of preventive care have different effects on spending, the evidence suggests that for most preventive services, expanded utilization leads to higher, not lower, medical spending overall,” Elmendorf wrote. “That result may seem counterintuitive.
    “For example, many observers point to cases in which a simple medical test, if given early enough, can reveal a condition that is treatable at a fraction of the cost of treating that same illness after it has progressed. In such cases, an ounce of prevention improves health and reduces spending — for that individual,” Elmendorf wrote. “But when analyzing the effects of preventive care on total spending for health care, it is important to recognize that doctors do not know beforehand which patients are going to develop costly illnesses. To avert one case of acute illness, it is usually necessary to provide preventive care to many patients, most of whom would not have suffered that illness anyway. … Researchers who have examined the effects of preventive care generally find that the added costs of widespread use of preventive services tend to exceed the savings from averted illness.”

    • And we all know how Canada saves money: wait times.
      If we have to have national healthcare, I will take vouchers/tax credits and the Swiss system.

      • Canada pushes general care to small medical centers, which have no wait times other than your order in line…. like anything else in the World. Another words, if your arm is broken, need a surgery to live, you don’t wait.
        And if you’ve ever had a medical condition in the States, you would know without question you wait, often days just to get in, let alone a scheduled appointment – which is a wait. Lol.

        • A ‘medical condition’?   explain what you mean by that.

           

        • This is why Canadians with conditions like broken hips have to wait months on end or fly instead to the USA for treatment. A broken hip, you see isn’t life-threatening, so you can just sit around and wait.
           

  • Another problem with the people who are laughing at 20 cents a pizza is that they don’t understand how small changes on the margin like this have large effects overall.

  • At what point do we stop making choices under the argument that we’re only stealing a little bit of other people’s money?
     

    • Thank you – a one liner.

    • About the only thing I miss about the misbegotten livefyre was the ability to +like comments.  This one is trenchant and spot-on.  Two thumbs up.