Meta-Blog

SEARCH QandO

Email:
Jon Henke
Bruce "McQ" McQuain
Dale Franks
Bryan Pick
Billy Hollis
Lance Paddock
MichaelW

BLOGROLL QandO

 
 
Recent Posts
The Ayers Resurrection Tour
Special Friends Get Special Breaks
One Hour
The Hope and Change Express - stalled in the slow lane
Michael Steele New RNC Chairman
Things that make you go "hmmmm"...
Oh yeah, that "rule of law" thing ...
Putting Dollar Signs in Front Of The AGW Hoax
Moving toward a 60 vote majority?
Do As I Say ....
 
 
QandO Newsroom

Newsroom Home Page

US News

US National News
Politics
Business
Science
Technology
Health
Entertainment
Sports
Opinion/Editorial

International News

Top World New
Iraq News
Mideast Conflict

Blogging

Blogpulse Daily Highlights
Daypop Top 40 Links

Regional

Regional News

Publications

News Publications

 
But Don’t Question Their Patriotism...
Posted by: Dale Franks on Wednesday, July 04, 2007

James Lileks nails it today:
I expect a good Fourth, even though we’ve been warned of a “Spectacular” terrorist attack sometime this summer...

I’ve gotten to the point where I imagine, almost simultaneous with the event, what the reaction will be among those who find evidence of terrorism both maddeningly inconvenient and perversely heartening – they must downplay the event lest the dark gang of warmongers use the crime to terrify the bedwetters – you know, all those people who believe in the bogeyman of global jihad - but at the same time, the attacks prove that we’ve not only failed to stop “terrorism,” we have made it worse by, well, trying to stop terrorism. Oh, it can be stopped, if the proper postures are assumed, but on we go with our chests out and our manhood in our hand, looking for fights. As Hitchens put it in this recent piece, there are many who can’t quite get on board with the whole anti-caliphate gig, since the people running the show are probably motivated by racism. Even if it’s true, it’s like saying the people who wanted to fight Hitler did so because they couldn’t stand German opera.

I saw a bumpersticker today: “I’m already against the next war.” No doubt. That really says everything. It’s not the cause; it’s not the stakes; it’s not the world the foe wants to impose. It’s the means. War bad. If Iran nukes Israel, it’ll prove their point. The fact that it might have been preventable by lesser war? For some, the position is perfect and hermetically sealed, and can be pointed in any direction. The war that might have prevented a larger war is bad, because it is war. The war that resulted from the lack of a smaller war is bad, because it is war. War is war and bad is bad, and when you’re that far up in the clouds the details don’t really matter. A puff of smoke here, and puff of smoke there: do we need to know the name of the place to know it’s wrong?

Well, yes, it does help. I was reading today about a Zimbabwe archbishop pleading for someone to invade and take out Mugabe. He asked if the entire country had to collapse on itself and descent into anarchy, and the answer, of course, is yes; it does. When Zimbabwe gets a seat on the UN’s Sustainable Development Commission, and is not there to present instructive arguments against sustainable development, you get a sense of the strength of the fictions that bind the high-minded. It’s one thing to want a better world; it’s another to hope to will it into being by believing in docile sugared fictions about the nature of man and the equality of cultures.
And yet, believing in those sugared fictions is characteristic of those of that ilk. In fact, there's a lot of sugared fictions they believe in.

You know, back in the 2004 elections, those were the people who were complaining that their opponents were attacking their patriotism. They assured us that they loved this country just as much as anybody.

They don't, really. What they love is an idealized version of this country that doesn't exist. What they love is "America", a fantasy state in which there are no conservatives, and especially no religious right. It's an America where everyone has a fulfilling life of dignity and value, where there are no homeless people, no crime, and where fuzzy kitties and fluffy bunnies abound for the stroking.

But the real America, with its complexities, problems, and distasteful politics...not so much. It's always instructive to nip over to places like Pandagon, and read their 4th of July posts. Amanda is upset.
Our country is in the process of slipping backwards, further away from Jefferson’s vision of an equal nation with a free citizenry, and the true patriots amongst us, who fight for Jefferson’s vision are being labeled as some sort of America-hating obstructionists.
I wonder if Jefferson's vision included abortion on demand, gay marriage, national health care, and subservience to transnational organs like the United Nations. Unfortunately, he isn't around to ask, so I guess we'll never know.

But again, Ms. Marcotte and her...I dunno...I guess you'd have to call them co-religionists don't love the country as it is. They love the utopian vision of it that exists only in their minds. They're upset, too.
My 4th of July post was going to be asking why celebrate? One of my reasons would/will be that 3,500 service persons have died for a lie and that celebrating while this travesty and tragedy is on going seems frivolous and inappropriate.
I sit here in the home of the Revolutionary movement. And the last week or has made it so I just can’t celebrate. We’re moving backwards from those aspirations.
I won’t be celebrating today either. I haven’t considered myself an “American” since Bush legalized torture...
I just took a walk to the grocery store, and there was a truck driving down Huntington Ave. with a huge American flag. I could only feel shame.
For me July 4th will be a day of mourning. I mourn all those who died to hold our constitution above the tyranny of greed. I mourn all those who have given large parts, literally and figuratively, of their lives in support of this country. I also mourn the loss of the rule of law and the way our “leaders” trample the rights of freedom. A coup has happened. It is fact that gwbush and darth chinney are acting against the rule of law. This is a sad day because of what might have been. I am not optimistic about the future of our once great country.
My husband wanted to go to Boston for fireworks this year and I put the kabosh on that. My 11 year old was devastated when he thought we weren’t going to go to the fireworks, so we will at least go to our town’s show. Though I cringe at the thought of listening to Lee Greenwood this year, while we wait for sun down . No matter what, I am reduced to tears by his song, but this year it will be tears of shame.
I’m not feeling patriotic right now, either. Our plans for the evening are to go see Sicko with our friend from Spain, then go eat a frozen pizza and a fruit crumble with him.
Wow. You are one party hamster.
I’m celebrating the 4th of July this year by being elsewhere, elsewhere, ELSEWHERE! Not to gloat, but this is the best 4.7 I’ve had in years…it was a normal Wednesday instead of a day of cloying jingoism followed by explosions.
I wonder what they'll complain about on 4 July, 2009, when Messrs. Cheney and Bush are gone. Ah, well, they'll probably be all out of sorts over Fred Thompson's "New Gulag" or some such rot. Not that some of them believe Bush and Cheney will be gone.
Some things are certain: Bush won’t go willingly. Cheney will have to be recalled by his cold hearted ‘god’ before he’ll leave. Bush wants his ‘legacy’ and really feels like he’s ‘on a mission from god’ and is just incredibly misunderstood...
Ah, the "reality-based" section weighs in.

The most unintentionally funny comment:
Careful, y’all–Little Jonah Goldberg is likely to call you unpatriotic...
Well, maybe. Still, spending July 4th, the country's national holiday, recounting what a craphole the place is, does kinda open you up to those sorts of accusations. I mean, isn't there a single day that these people can write down anything they like about the country?

You know, like how, in America, they can write these little screeds about how horrible the government is, and how their liberties are all being taken away, without worrying that the secret police will boot down their door at 2:00am and cart them all off to a concentration camp?

I guess that would be too much to expect, of course. Quite apart from anything else, it would require the ability to comprehend irony.
 
TrackBacks
Return to Main Blog Page
 
 

Previous Comments to this Post 

Comments
Angry at Bush, taking it out on her kid and her husband. Priceless. Poor guys.

And I don’t think you meant 2001.
 
Written By: Joe R.
URL: http://
I enjoyed the fourth, but as I write on my July 3rd blog, I will do no flag waving and I utterly reject the anti-libertarian "patriotism" that inflicts so many. I am fervently anti-nationalist and cosmopolitian in my approach. I do rever and honor the ideas of the Constitution and scholars like Locke, Voltaire, Montesquieu and others who inspired the American experiment in democracy. Those ideas now spread far beyond the US, and are as powerful in Europe as here, or in Tokyo as in New York. My favorite line from a song, Rush, "Territories", from the CD Power Windows: "Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world, then the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled."

Nationalism not only deludes, but it often creates a rationale for millitarism and double standards. That can lead to evil disguised as virtue. It is very dangerous.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
That can lead to evil disguised as virtue. It is very dangerous.
And being a "citizen of the world" leads to faith in the UN and has proven itself to be dangerous to no one but the victims of genocide and tyranny in all corners of the world. That is "evil disguised as virtue." And it is encouraged by the likes of you.
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Nationalism is one of many labels we give ourselves and is little better or worse than the rest.

Anyway, the comments quoted in this post are sad reminders that some people simply can’t handle a reality that doesn’t give them everything exactly as they want it. To claim that we are moving backwards or to imply we are condoning torture for the first time in our history is on the same level as dealing with a ten-year who refuses to stop believing in Santa Claus.
 
Written By: abw
URL: http://abw.mee.nu
Scott, if you really believe that way, then you should not "enjoy" the Fourth of July, and in fact, should make a point to head into work that day. Principles, man, principles. Resist the lure of the barbecued meats and pretty fireworks.

Meanwhile, a lot of of these "citizens of the world" get upset about globalization. LOL. Scott is at least consistent in that regard.

Now, in Taiwan, our local AMCHAM has a 4th of July party that this year is called..."Taichung AmCham/Muchachos International 2007 America Day Celebration" that’s enough to kill any joy. A couple of years ago they were sponsored by San Miguel beer, too. Anyways, I had to work, so no big deal.


 
Written By: Harun
URL: http://
p.s. I can just imagine the Spanish friend mentioned in one of the comments secretly thinking, "Man, I would like to see the fireworks and enjoy how Americans celebrate their independence, but this guy, he keeps talking about nationalized healthcare and the EU."
 
Written By: Harun
URL: http://
Actually I used to volunteer to work double shifts on the fourth during my college days. 18.5 hours, meaning an extra day off, thanks from co-workers (fellow assistant managers, since I essentially volunteered to run the store for the day). I did that after I got my MA when I did another restaurant stint.

I’m comfortable with believing in individualism, the values of the constitution/declaration (which of course were built on European philosophies of the time), and aspects of how Americans express these values (my reposted blog today from a year ago gives the example of Laura Ingalls Wilder). I just don’t connect those to symbols like the flag, or claims about pride in collective identities. To me, pride is individual, it’s based on personal accomplishments, not some collective identity one is born into or joins. Flag waving and patriotic banter seems too close to worship of the state. But I do feel an obligation to try to make my community a better place, and in so doing my country. That is now in Maine, once it was in South Dakota, for a while Washington DC, for awhile Minnesota...and if I lived in Italy, I’d feel the same obligation there. If I were in a dictatorship, I’d feel obligated to resist.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
What they love is "America", a fantasy state in which there are no conservatives, and especially no religious right. It’s an America where everyone has a fulfilling life of dignity and value, where there are no homeless people, no crime, and where fuzzy kitties and fluffy bunnies abound for the stroking.
And everyone in the world loves us, because we are so good and kind and nice. And none of those underprivileged brown people would ever think of attacking us, because we share our wealth with them and respect them and build up their self-esteem. And we respect their religion, so they never have a reason to attack us on its behalf.

Honest to goodness, that’s exactly what I get out of some people when I talk to them about the real world. They have this idealized vision that is based on nothing but assertion that it could ever work, in the face of a mountain of history and evidence that we can’t come with light years of making it work. It’s a variant of the same idealized vision that thought communism could work if just the right people were in charge, and socialism could work if everyone would just do their "fair share".

It’s the same nonsensical vision that tells us today that we can have universal healthcare, and somehow everyone will just be magically covered, despite the experience of Canada, the UK, etc, and despite the clear economic fact that unlimited demand can never be satisfied by finite resources. But, oh, it would feel so good to think that all the downtrodden have great healthcare, and they can stroll into a doctor’s office whenever they’re feeling a bit off, and a smiling, helpful, industrious, smart doctor will be right there at their beck and call whenever they need one.

It’s a childish desire to live in a utopian dreamland instead of coping with the very real world and the wide assortment of people and circumstances in it. Such people disgust me because they pretend to be adults, indeed think of themselves as more adult that their ideological opponents, yet they are the epitomy of childishness.
 
Written By: Billy Hollis
URL: http://
Thanks Scott.

I’ll be sure to piss on your hydrant next May Day.

Always enjoyed working on the fourth myself, had a deal with the SobeRide cabbies and kept my customers safe and happy, with corresponding repeat business and tips.
 
Written By: Uncle Pinky
URL: http://
Dale Franks wrote:
You know, back in the 2004 elections, those were the people who were complaining that their opponents were attacking their patriotism. They assured us that they loved this country just as much as anybody.

They don’t, really. What they love is an idealized version of this country that doesn’t exist. What they love is "America", a fantasy state in which there are no conservatives, and especially no religious right.
I not merely agree with you, I’ve been saying that for years. To a great extent Democrats, and to a drastically greater degree the moonbats, are patriotic only to an America which does not, will not, and should not exist.

And many are enemies of America as it is or could better be exemplary of the ideas of the Enlightenment.

Erb wrote:
"I do rever and honor the ideas of the Constitution and scholars like Locke, Voltaire, Montesquieu and others who inspired the American experiment in democracy."
On the one hand, I’m certain you don’t even understand them, much less support them; and on the other I’m charmed to see you supporting an ideology.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
*spit*

Were this the place Amanda thinks it is, she’d have been carted off years ago to some forgotten wasteland’s unknown prison and never heard from again...

...

I’m sorry, I drifted off in a daydream. My bad.

Every single person that feels shame over being in this country, can move the F**K out. Renounce your citizenship, and leave. I suggest Cuba or Venezuela. I’m sure such bastions of freedom and rightiousness will suit you all much better.

Shut up, and sit down, or get the hell out. I’m sick of the whining.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Speaking of sugar coated fictions:
When Zimbabwe gets a seat on the UN’s Sustainable Development Commission, and is not there to present instructive arguments against sustainable development, you get a sense of the strength of the fictions that bind the high-minded.
Going to take a lot of sugar to swallow a theory that puts the philosophy of a minor American politcal faction as elevating Zimbabwe to any UN Commission seat. Would surprise the crap out of Hu Jintao if what he thought was China’s client state was actually much more indebted to Pandragon, Netroots, Huffington, et al.
 
Written By: unaha-closp
URL: http://warisforwinning.blogspot.com/
Tom, I believe in ideals, but reject ideology as a system through which one interprets reality in an absolutist sense. Also I recognize that my having ideals does not mean I’m in a position to demand others have them.

Uncle P., I’m not sure what you mean about May day, but since exchanging may baskets as a child I’ve never celebrated that day. I’m not a Christian, but I respect Christmas celebrations, tell people ’merry Christmas,’ and get upset about anti-religious folk trying to denegrate the most holy day for one particular faith. But I tend to have a similar view on religion as on nation: I believe there are common spiritual values, but no single faith can be seen as the "right" or "best" religion.

By the way, as to the things quoted in the post: a lot of the people quoted are making the reverse error of the one I attribute to nationalism. They are, in essence, denegrating their country and seeing things as worse than others in a way that is just as wrong as those who see their country as superior. The whole collective identity thing strikes me as misguided.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Holy crap, what a bunch of sad, angry, joyless people:
My husband wanted to go to Boston for fireworks this year and I put the kabosh on that. My 11 year old was devastated when he thought we weren’t going to go to the fireworks, so we will at least go to our town’s show
I’m pretty sure there’s a divorce in the immediate future...god knows what else she "puts the kibosh on". And christ, give the kid a break. Why inflict your politics on him?
I’m not feeling patriotic right now, either. Our plans for the evening are to go see Sicko with our friend from Spain, then go eat a frozen pizza and a fruit crumble with him
Wow....crappy documentary, frozen pizza and fruit crumble. These guys sure know how to show a visitor a swinging good time.

I just took a walk to the grocery store, and there was a truck driving down Huntington Ave. with a huge American flag. I could only feel shame
You know, most of us can make it through common chores w/o being reduced to emotional rubble by the outside world.

Part of my happiness on this day comes from knowing that they’re miserable.




 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
Billy Beck posted a quote which seems to fit here rather well.. and I hope he doesn’t mind, because it fits so well butted up against the stuff Marcotte gave us:
A typical American can never fully grasp that kind of feeling. An American is an independent entity. The popular expression of protest against ’being pushed around’ is unintelligible to Europeans, who believe that to be pushed around is their natural condition.

Emotionally, an American has no concept of service (or of servitude) to anyone. Even if he enlists in the army and hears it called ’service to his country,’ his feeling is that of a generous aristocrat who chose to do a dangerous task. A European soldier feels that he is doing his duty.

’Isn’t my money as good as the next fellow’s?’ used to be a popular American expression. It would not be popular in Europe: a fortune, to be good, must be old and derived by special favor from the State; to a European, money earned by personal effort is vulgar, crude, or somehow disreputable.

Americans admire achievement; they know what it takes. Europeans regard achievement with cynical suspicion and envy. Envy is not a widespread emotion in America (not yet); it is an overwhelmingly dominant emotion in Europe.
It’s Ayn Rand, of course. But it strikes me she describes the non-thought behind MArcotte’s nonsense rather well. Marcotte is the European angle.

But don’t call her unAmerican. Gaia forfend!
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
The whole collective identity thing strikes me as misguided.
I’m sorry you feel that way, Scott. I really do. When I see the flag go by in a July 4 parade, I feel a swell of pride.

I remember my father’s 28 years of service - World War Two, Korea, Viet Nam, and the long years of the Cold War. I remember seeing my Dad through a chain link fence during the Cuban Missile Crisis - It was the only way we were able to see him for over 6 six weeks. He gets tears in his eyes when they sing the National Anthem to begin a sporting event.

I remember my Grandfather’s service in World War One. He and his brother Dave served with the 1st Infantry Division and both came home with Bronze stars. And that was rare. Back then about the only way to get a medal like that was to be put in the ground in some French graveyard.

I remember my Uncle researching our family history - both sides. He is my father’s brother and he married my Mother’s younger sister. My father’s family was from southern Georgia and many served with a Confederate regiment from that area. My Mother’s family was from Illinois and they served with a Union Regiment of that state. As a strange twist of fate, these regiments faced each other at the Battle of Chickamauga in 1863. There is no doubt my mother’s ancestors killed my father’s and vice versa. But now our family is stretched all over this country.

The pride I feel as the flag passes by cannot even be properly expressed by my own meager words. If you want to call that nationalism, go ahead. I feel no such pride when I see the flag of the UN. I feel no such pride when I see the flag of the Olympics. Respect? To some degree, yes. Pride? No way!

Collective identity misguided? Not a friggin’ chance!
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
Wow....crappy documentary, frozen pizza and fruit crumble. These guys sure know how to show a visitor a swinging good time
I think I’d rather get mugged in downtown NYC then spend a night in her chosen fashion...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
ah, Dale effing Franks making the determination as to whether his political opponents do or don’t love this country.

guess what, DF, you don’t get to do that. The nice thing about being an American is my vote has the exact same weight as yours. I have the exact same right to express myself as you do, and I get to have just as much contempt for my political opponents as you do.

You know, you don’t love America either. You love an idealized version where no one has "abortion on demand, gay marriage, national health care" because they don’t want it. Those things are icky and unAmerican, after all.

or not. You see, the really neat thing about being American is that if you can convince enough people that a particular idea has merit, then that idea can become law.

Another really neat thing is that the American Constitution protects, in certain situations, minority groups against the oppression of the majority. So whether it’s uppity black kids insisting on equal access to education, or uppity mixed-race couples insisting on equal access to marriage or uppity women seeking to control their body, sometimes the majority gets to sit down and shut up.

what a great country.
 
Written By: Francis
URL: http://
ah, Dale effing Franks making the determination as to whether his political opponents do or don’t love this country.
The neat thing is, Francis, Dale Franks didn’t have to. Amanda "Christofascistgodbagsc*mguzzler" Marcotte and her cohorts at Cthulhu’s Coven did that all by themselves. All he had to do was link to the post, point, and ask one to read for themselves.

And all in full context.
guess what, DF, you don’t get to do that. The nice thing about being an American is my vote has the exact same weight as yours.
I am sure that was a great comfort to the people in the former Weimar Republic.

Democracy =/= Freedom. We’d all be wise to remember that.

 
Written By: The Gonzman
URL: http://
, Dale effing Franks making the determination as to whether his political opponents do or don’t love this country.
No, Dale effing Franks simply pointing out the obvious.

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
You know, like how, in America, they can write these little screeds about how horrible the government is, and how their liberties are all being taken away, without worrying that the secret police will boot down their door at 2:00am and cart them all off to a concentration camp?
I think that’s part of the problem, they really do sit up at night thinking that this is a possibility. They are malignant narcissistic, add a touch of paranoia, and you’ve got the perfect conditions for self-reinforcing fears.

They think Bush/Chenny/Haliburtion are Nazis. They are very vocal about it. Nazis imprison and torture people they don’t approve of. So, any minute, in their mind, they are going to be subject to a no-knock raid in the middle of the night.

The right wing has its share of the paranoic tin-foil brigade. Of course, they actually have a little more to fear, since they’re probably also collecting guns, and gun powder.

They aren’t un-patriotic, they’ve deluded themselves into believing their own rhetoric.
Another really neat thing is that the American Constitution protects, in certain situations, minority groups against the oppression of the majority.
Well, as long as the minority is politically correct now-a-days...

And of course, the Democrats would like to change the rules to do away with that. Actually, strike that, the incumbency in DC would like to change the rules to do away with that.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
Cthulhu’s Coven
As a poster on YSDC, and and an avid HP Lovecraft fan, I would thank you to not drag the Elder Gods into this... :)
since they’re probably also collecting guns, and gun powder.
That does them precious little good unless they start collecting bullets... :)
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
"and the true patriots amongst us, who fight for Jefferson’s vision are being labeled as some sort of America-hating obstructionists."

The ’true’ patriots. She wouldn’t be attacking the patriotism of those who disagree with her, would she? Nah, that couldn’t happen.


" I am fervently anti-nationalist and cosmopolitian in my approach"
"I just don’t connect those to symbols like the flag, or claims about pride in collective identities.To me, pride is individual, it’s based on personal accomplishments, not some collective identity one is born into or joins"

LOL.
Spoken like a true narcissist.

"pa·tri·ot·ism n. Love of and devotion to one’s country"
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
"pa·tri·ot·ism n. Love of and devotion to one’s country"
I’ll do the math for you...

If love and devotion are required elements towards being patriotic, lacking either or both means the person is not patriotic.

Amanda pretty much admits flat out that she has no love for this country...

And it just dawned on me... She said some time ago that she’d ’go right on f*cking without having babies’...

She has a kid? What, did the abortion not take or something? I smell lawsuit...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Scott Jacobs, I hate to tell you, but I summoned and then barbecued fnord Shub-Niggurath over the holidays.

The goat was surprisingly tender for her age.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
Every July 4th I ponder the question: if "liberals" celebrate it—and except for the genuine Marxists among them, I believe they do—what exactly are they celebrating? Certainly not a war for independence started by gun-toting angry white male tax rebels fighting the confiscation of their munitions. The quotes from Marcotte only add to my confusion. Does she really think that she and her State-focking confreres represent the true Jeffersonian, classical-liberal, limited-government heritage? Only on Bizarro Planet. Yet, despite the fact that such people are opposed the Lockean ideals the country was founded on, they seem to have convinced themselves—when they’re not just lying—that they actually love America.

How (you may ask)? Well, you ever know a woman (I guess there are some men who do this, too, but it may experience it’s usually been women) who gets engaged to a guy who is seriously unlike the kind of man she’s been saying that she’s looking for? You wonder why she’s intent on getting hitched to a guy she has so little in common with. Upon questioning, she reveals she sees the guy as a "fixer upper" with potential and that she can change him into her ideal man. This never, to my knowledge, works, and she continues to nag and browbeat that poor sap until he either de-balls himself and learns to submit, or wises up and dumps the shrew. And yet the woman really deludes herself into believeing that she loves him, when what she loves is the ideal she thinks she can force him into becoming.

Then there’s the man you might see on COPS or The Jerry Springer Show who regularly beats his wife. And yet every time the poor deluded woman tries to divorce him, he insists that he loves her. And in some sick, twisted way, he may.

That’s how "liberal" State-fockers love America.

 
Written By: Bilwick
URL: http://
..then go eat a frozen pizza and a fruit crumble with him...

Two thoughts: 1) Is it healthy to eat a pizza in a frozen state?, and 2) pursuit of utopia is futile since the word translates from Greek into no place. It does not exist and entertaining such thoughts leads to, well, eating frozen pizza.
 
Written By: jhstuart
URL: http://
"Spoken like a true narcissist."
Well then, Tim, I’m one, too.

The difference is that I’m not lying about it like Erb is.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
Leftist: I really don’t like America

Some guy: I question your patriotism

Leftist: How dare you question my patriotism?

Some guy: Isn’t "patriotism" defined by loving your country?

Leftist: According to the dictionary.

Some guy: Do you love America?

Leftist: No. I hate it.

Some guy: Then I question your patriotism.

Leftist: How dare you question my patriotism?

Some guy: What?

Leftist: Nuance. Look it up. FASCIST!
 
Written By: Real conversation
URL: http://
Well then, Tim, I’m one, too.

The difference is that I’m not lying about it like Erb is.
Gee, Billy, your animosity is so great that you can’t even accept that we agree on something, you have to accuse me of lying. It would be irrational to be making fully public statements of belief on controversial matters, using my name, trying to be persausive, in the public record, if I didn’t believe what I state.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
SShiell: My point is that the pride in your father or grandfather’s efforts should not be dependent on the state or need the flag. There were many Germans, Japanese, French, Soviets and others who served their land bravely and honorably, convinced they were doing the right thing. (There were many war criminals too, to be sure — but many who didn’t know of their country’s atrocities and who truly believed they were fighting to defend their homeland against evil aggressors). Are their actions, efforts, sacrifices and bravery any less real than those of your grandfather or father just because the politicians directing their state manipulated them and in some cases had evil intent? Do we really want to measure the value of the individual based on what governments do, or the collective identity assigned to that person? If your grandfather happened to be German in Germany (my grandfather was German but his family came here in 1890 and he fought for the US in WWI) would the same actions be less worthy of honor because the political leadership was different? Perhaps. But if we start measuring human value and honor based on who someone is rather than what they accomplish, that’s a very dangerous and slippery slope.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
"It would be irrational to be making fully public statements of belief on controversial matters, using my name, trying to be persausive, in the public record, if I didn’t believe what I state"

So who here accuses you of being rational? One of your habits is that you state mutually contradictory things. Some choose to think it dishonesty, others insanity, and a few, both.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
...if we start measuring human value and honor based on who someone is rather than what they accomplish, that’s a very dangerous and slippery slope.

That is an interesting hypothesis. Does the moral person who is lacking in ’accomplishments’, however measured, have any human value? If not, that is a very dangerous concept.
 
Written By: jhstuart
URL: http://
Being a moral person is an accomplishment. But you have a point — there is inherent value in human life beyond simply what one accomplishes.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
wow, the strawman version of liberals that exist in the heads of the people who post here is bizarre. You guys need to get out more and actually become friends with real liberals, because the comments bear no relationship to reality.

Here are some reasons why some liberals might not be feeling overly peppy on the 4th:

the President just took a big steaming dump on the rule of law.
America tortures and disappears people.
After years of telling us that troop strengths were just right, the President is now implementing Shinseki’s strategy, but still with a fraction of the troops needed.
The Unitary Executive theory (which will doubtlessly be repudiated if a Democrat is elected president).
Presidential support for "teaching the controversy" about evolution.
Really large budget deficits.
A health care system that sucks for millions of people.
An economic system in which virtually all increases in national productivity are being captured by a very small group.

Me, I enjoyed myself. Played with the dogs, cooked some barbeque, had some drinks, read the Declaration of Independence.

yah, the Founding Fathers were flawed men. So? They set up a system of government that (with one really bad civil war) has stood the test of time.

 
Written By: Francis
URL: http://
"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill

And hence, I remain proud of and deeply love my country, despite all it’s faults and past/present/future misdeeds. It’s provided tremendous opportunities for people to make the most of themselves. And I would say, we do best when the government gets out of the way.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
"There were many Germans, Japanese, French, Soviets and others who served their land bravely and honorably, convinced they were doing the right thing."

Yep. Its a grand feeling to have 50 years after the war is over and your side won. Then we can make those movies about the Japanese at Iwo Jima being just as honorable as our side. Wonder if the dude on the Bataan death march had those sorts of thoughts, though. Either side.

Patriotism is important for a country to instill cultural beliefs about how one’s nation operates. If we are all just world-weary global citizens, why then, I guess we should just accept what the UN people say to do. Nope. Sorry. America has a distinct culture and we should celebrate it. Doesn’t mean you cannot understand or respect other cultures, but at the same time, you shouldn’t subsume your own.

Jesus, we declared independence from England and created a new form of government, and your response is "meh, I hear Nigeria held elections too, so let’s skip the fireworks."
 
Written By: Harun
URL: http://
My point is that the pride in your father or grandfather’s efforts should not be dependent on the state or need the flag.
And it wasn’t in either case. They believed in their nation. Even the Confederacy was institued as a Jeffersonian Republic and my forebears on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line fought to preserve that. In the South they fought as has once been told, because "You Yankees are down here uninvited." In the North they fought to preserve the Union. But in both cases they fought for the flag, the ideal of their nation.

You see, I do not question other men’s loyalty to their flags, to their nation, to their people. It is as a part of me as my own right hand. Their flag, the symnbol of their nation, is worthy of the sacrifice. I do not condemn it. I understand it and recognize the power that it holds in a man or woman who is willing the give "the last full measure" for that symbol.

But I believe you have misjudged the case. Without that symbol or flag, their sacrifice is for what? An ideal? Show me a man who has sacrificed his life and I will show you flag he did it for. And if it was not for a flag, then his life was surely in vain. How else could you justify the deaths of millions of Germans, Japanes, and Italians in World War Two. Did they fight and die in vain? No. Did their lives amount to anything but a rotten corpse? No. If you believe otherwise, then you might need to ask yourself what is there that is worth such sacrifice. My own feeling matches what John Stuart Mill once wrote:
War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
the President just took a big steaming dump on the rule of law.
And the guy before him shot a huge sticky wad all over the rule of law and the Office... I doubt you bitched about it back then...
America tortures and disappears people.
*snickers*
You actually believe this happens every day to dissenters, don’t you...

The Black Helicopters have been summoned. Best don thy tin-foil hat...
After years of telling us that troop strengths were just right, the President is now implementing Shinseki’s strategy, but still with a fraction of the troops needed.
Or, stated more honestly, is using not only the number of troops requested by the people who’s opinion matters (the generals), but also the exact same number of troops the Dems were howling for not even a year ago...
Presidential support for "teaching the controversy" about evolution.
So both views being heard is bad? Gotcha...
Really large budget deficits.
Wait till we have that socialized healthcare you people want so much...

These deficits will become but wistful dreams...
A health care system that sucks for millions of people.
Out of 300 million? One percent "bad" ratings aren’t all that shabby... And ignore the fact that our system treats people better and faster than any of the socialized systems you wish we were more like.
read the Declaration of Independence.
How could you stand to do such a thing. It was, after all, writen solely by white, judeo-christian men who were among the MOST wealthy in the colonies...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Presidential support for "teaching the controversy" about evolution.

So both views being heard is bad? Gotcha...
So I guess you’d have no problem with having an astronomy class also study astrology and the influence of the zodiac on our daily lives? I mean, if you can mix science with pseudo-science in one field, why not others? If science and truth don’t determine what should be taught, but rather "all opinions are valid" regardless of the evidence, then why not teach flat earth theory as well?
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
"...you have to accuse me of lying."
I know you, you goddamned fraud.
"It would be irrational..."
That’s right, and that’s the very least of what you are.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
If science and truth don’t determine what should be taught, but rather "all opinions are valid" regardless of the evidence, then why not teach flat earth theory as well?
This must have been hard to say for you...

I know that Al Gore certainly must have felt a disturbance in the Gorce...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Patriotism is important for a country to instill cultural beliefs about how one’s nation operates. If we are all just world-weary global citizens, why then, I guess we should just accept what the UN people say to do. Nope. Sorry. America has a distinct culture and we should celebrate it. Doesn’t mean you cannot understand or respect other cultures, but at the same time, you shouldn’t subsume your own.
I’m arguing for individualism, not loyalty to a UN — I’d actively oppose any world government trying to tell us what to do! And I’m certainly not suggesting people be world-weary. A utilitarian view for patriotism is also unnecessary. One doesn’t need to be patriotic to be part of a civil society with shared norms and values about behavior and how society functions. Indeed, what I like about America is that we are a melting pot of cultures because ideas like freedom and limited government don’t define us in one way. Diversity within America is one reason American society has been so dynamic. I just don’t go for the symbols, and pride in a collective identity. I’m not sure what it means to "subsume my own," but having lived in numerous places (three parts of the US, plus two foreign countries) I’ve found I can adapt and learn from different cultures and different places pretty easily. When one travels I think one learns to critically assess his or her own culture, as well as to appreciate what it has (and what another culture has). Me, I’ll take what strikes me as the best of any culture and build it into my life, and drop the rest.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
I know you, you goddamned fraud.

No you don’t. You’ve created an image from past debates of what you think I am, and you are not able to change that image since you simply interpret everything I say through that image. You don’t know me at all.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
wow, the strawman version of liberals that exist in the heads of the people who post here is bizarre. You guys need to get out more and actually become friends with real liberals, because the comments bear no relationship to reality.

Who the hell needs strawmen, Francis, when you can go to Pandagon, Kos, the D.U.....

We didn’t write any of that. Your lefty pals did.

Or are they "No True Scotsmen?"
 
Written By: The Gonzman
URL: http://
So I guess you’d have no problem with having an astronomy class also study astrology and the influence of the zodiac on our daily lives? I mean, if you can mix science with pseudo-science in one field, why not others? If science and truth don’t determine what should be taught, but rather "all opinions are valid" regardless of the evidence, then why not teach flat earth theory as well?

Why the hell not, indeed? Let the market decide.

The right to be both wrong and stupid is fundamental to the individualism you so loudly profess.
 
Written By: The Gonzman
URL: http://
Yeah, I’d like to know where the "strawmen" are. This "straw man" man seems to be the part line among members of the Hive. They advocate (A), (B) and (C), but if you criticize them—or even just note—that they advocate (A), (B) and (C), suddenly it’s a "straw man."
 
Written By: Bilwick
URL: http://
It occurred to me that when "liberals" (or as I like to call ’em this time of year, "Welfare State Tories") celebrate the Fourth of July they are honoring American classical liberals who revolted against ancien-regime European statism, which resulted in an American political system that the new Tories can use to institute nouveau-regime European statism in America. Very strange.
 
Written By: Bilwick
URL: http://
If science and truth don’t determine what should be taught, but rather "all opinions are valid" regardless of the evidence, then why not teach flat earth theory as well?
Technically, we were taught this. Right about the same time we were taught about how it was dispelled. Alternate views can be used during teaching. It is a matter of emphasis.

There are a number of fields which are consensus driven, but are full of competing theories. Economics comes to mind.

And if we were to drive public policy from a solely numbers driven approach, we’d be eliminating a great number of programs which have failed to achieve their goals. (Not a bad thing in my view.)
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
"You’ve created an image from past debates..."
If there is an "image" in all this, then you’re the one responsible for that. Not me or anyone else. I take you at your words, and they are yours. When you came prancing into the Whitewater group more than ten years ago now, I was the first one who saw what you are, and everybody paying attention knows that I was right about you. I still am.

You can wriggle and squish all you want, but don’t you ever doubt that there are people with brains in their heads who see right through you, Erb. And if I’m the only one — which I’m not, by a long shot — then so be it. Nothing you say is going to make the facts go away.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
Billy, I am responsible for the words I write. And back in the 90s I got into the flame game in a way I no longer do, having learned that I may think I’m playing, but others take it very seriously. But I am not responsible for how you interpret my words, or go from net debates to a view of who a person is as a whole. You are making those determinations and interpretations in your mind. That’s one reason I cannot say there is anyone I dislike or hold a grudge against on line — it’s too easy to fall into the trap of creating an imagined image of an opponent and then reading what that person writes in a way that reinforces it. I’ll simply look at the ideas and argument as it stands, rather than personalize and emotionalize it. But as timactual points out, that makes me a bit boring.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
What they love is an idealized version of this country that doesn’t exist. What they love is "America", a fantasy state in which there are no conservatives, and especially no religious right. It’s an America where everyone has a fulfilling life of dignity and value, where there are no homeless people, no crime, and where fuzzy kitties and fluffy bunnies abound for the stroking.
Almost like its a place where alabaster cities gleam undimmed by human tears. A place whose good has been crowned with brotherhood. Whose Liberty is confirmed in Law. What kind of pansy liberal pinko scum loves a place like that?
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
Almost like its a place where alabaster cities gleam undimmed by human tears. A place whose good has been crowned with brotherhood. Whose Liberty is confirmed in Law.
Yeah, Utopia. And the literal translation of the word Utopia from the original Greek is NOWHERE
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!

O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern impassioned stress
A thoroughfare of freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self-control,
Thy liberty in law!

...

O beautiful for patriot dream
That sees beyond the years
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America!
God shed his grace on thee
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea!


hmm. From what song could these lyrics be?
 
Written By: Francis
URL: http://
Except, Francis, libtards such as yourself don’t believe in God, view that "thoroughfare of freedom beat across the wilderness" to be genocidal evidence of evil as the basis of the country, and would be happy enough to make sure those amber waves of grain were turned back over to the buffalo.

The hypocrisy in your every breath is overwhelming. As for brotherhood, the example between you (and all your ilk) and me is Jubal and Tubal Cain
Black-black as the hurricane-wrack,
Salt as the under-main-
Bitter and cold is the hate they hold —
Jubal and Tubal Cain!
 
Written By: SDN
URL: http://
Not any song Leftiest would allow to be heard...

It mentions God...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
No you don’t. You’ve created an image from past debates of what you think I am, and you are not able to change that image since you simply interpret everything I say through that image. You don’t know me at all.
Actually, he’s got you pegged closer than you’re comfortable with.
But I am not responsible for how you interpret my words
No. That would be the guys in charge of the dictionary. You see, your problem is that words mean things, and your typical response to be trapped in one of your own arguments is to try and change the meanings of words.

Like I said, closer than you’re comfortable with.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
No you don’t. You’ve created an image from past debates of what you think I am, and you are not able to change that image since you simply interpret everything I say through that image. You don’t know me at all.
Actually, he’s got you pegged closer than you’re comfortable with.
He has him nailed to the wall as much as that’s possible with him. It’s one thing when a single person has an opinion. It’s another when many who have experienced the same events and read the same words have exactly the same opinion. And then, when he moves on to another venue where some people don’t know him, like here, and those at the new location form exactly the same opinion (just ask JWG) as members of the former forum have?

Well then it’s not them, it is him.
But I am not responsible for how you interpret my words.
Nope, he’s responsible for the words he writes. What he has never understood, and still doesn’t to this day, is words mean things, people understand what those things are, and, eventually, if he says the same words in the same way repeatedly, people end up with a pretty solid interpretation whether he likes the results or not.

Clearly, given this nonsense, it’s "not".
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
SDN and Scott:

the Establishment Clause only prevents the government from taking actions preferential to religion. Private schools, churches, family barbeques etc. can talk about god all they want.

Is the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional? In its current form, yes.

Is singing America The Beautiful in public school unconstitutional? Likely No. The references to god are largely ceremonial, and unless the school insists on making a big point about this country being blessed by a Christian god even the ACLU is unlikely to care.

and it’s a beautiful piece of music, even to an agnostic.
 
Written By: Francis
URL: http://
"And back in the 90s I got into the flame game..."
Sit down and shut up, punk. This is not about any of that. This is about your ideas. It always has been, and it is right now and up to the minute.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
Sit down and shut up, punk.
You know I won’t do that. And if you say it’s about ideas, you’re lying. You refuse to even discuss ideas, you’re into personal attacks and insults/lies. You seem afraid of ideas. You seem afraid that if we really were to talk about ideas, some of your cherished beliefs might be challenged. So hide behind a wall of insults and emotion. I see right through you.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
just ask JWG
Yep...Billy and McQ have you nailed. I didn’t know anything about you until you came to this blog and presented your ideas. I tried discussing them with you several times and couldn’t believe how you continually twisted and redefined your previous words right in front of me. Hence my frequent use of the term "Erb Logic".
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
JWG: insults are cheap. Assertions are weak. The way to show something is to confront ideas. I think that the problem is that Billy, McQ and apparently you have very set ideas and are emotionally tied to them. I’m rather effective at showing the weaknesses and I do so without becoming a caricature like the far left crowd McQ loves to cite (the few on the fringe that get used to paint the opposition as a whole as irrational or ’Bush haters.’) Confronting me means that they might find their ideas weak, or unable to withstand logical scrutiny. I think that is a threat, and one that is probably more affective than cognitive, I doubt their reactions are purposeful evasion. Me, I know I may be wrong in most of my views and I take all views seriously as I try to figure out the world I find myself in. At the urging of people like Billy I decided to seriously re-read Hayek and rethink a lot of economic and governmental issues, and realized I was wrong about a lot of things I believed in the 90s. I’m no anarcho-capitaist, I don’t believe Billy is right in many of his core beliefs, but to me the goal is not a personal shouting match, but to listen and learn and recognize that people with different perspectives than my own may have something to teach me. But first one has to avoid getting so wedded to ones’ current beliefs that a challenge to them is an emotional threat.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
you have very set ideas and are emotionally tied to them
Yes, I am set on and emotionally tied to the idea of standard logic and the meaning of words. That’s why it’s so annoying to watch you twist and contort your own arguments when they get thrown back at you.

The evidence is all over this blog.
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
the few on the fringe that get used to paint the opposition as a whole as irrational or ’Bush haters.’
Yeah, members of the main stream media and prominent members of the left’s side of the blogosphere. Totally fringe... Amanda Marcotte? Who?
Confronting me means that they might find their ideas weak, or unable to withstand logical scrutiny
This would be a brilliant assertation if you ever succeeded in any sort of logic yourself. I’m with JWG here. I watch you twist and redefine your owns words constantly. I’ve actually been waiting for you to use "It depended on what your definition of ’is’ is."
Me, I know I may be wrong in most of my views and I take all views seriously as I try to figure out the world I find myself in.
Then seriously, stfu until you think you might have a shot at being right, ok? Talking just because you can is not only annoying, it’s really self defeating.

I wish your students could see you here. I’m sure many would jump on your band-wagon, but I suspect that for several it would awaken them to how intellectually bankrupt you really are.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
I don’t know who Amanda Marcotte is, except a blogger cited by Q&O. And Scott, before get self-righteous, you could at least admit that you were wrong about Anwar having as much oil as the Mideast "by even the most pessimistic estimates." When you make such gradiose claims, use it to insult another person, and then run away when hard evidence is provided that you were wrong (10 billion barrels vs. almost 700 billion in the Mideast), that discredits you. Admit you were wrong. Or stick to emotion and insults. The latter may feel more satisfying at the time, but it’s meaningless — and will stand in the way of your intellectual growth and development.

JWG: Put up or shut up. You can’t give any evidence because none is out there. You’re just parroting Billy’s claims because, apparently, insulting is easier than actually engaging.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
And then, when he moves on to another venue where some people don’t know him, like here, and those at the new location form exactly the same opinion (just ask JWG) as members of the former forum have?

Well then it’s not them, it is him.
Well, he will simply claim some variation of it being the fault of Billy, myself, and of course you. You see, we’re responsible for setting this idea into JWG’s mind.

And you’re right; his biggest problem at this point is that when he stumbled in here, he figured nobody knew him. He even went so far as to call himself a libertarian, apparently so as to give himself an apparent base from which to argue for his leftist views. However, he was not an unknown. Further, his arguments as a matter of history run afoul of that claim of "libertarianism". As an example, his statement back in April of 97:
I simply find a working welfare state good for economic freedom.
This statement, of course, runs directly afoul of any logical claims of libertarianism.

But us knowing him, or not knowing him and his history and style of twisting, is almost an incidental.... It’s really not central.

Here’s the thing; This is as Billy says, about ideas. Erb seems to take all this as a personal affront, and still seems to eel this is all about HIM. but the fact of the matter is, that this is all about ideas. And for my part, I respond exactly the same two anyone coming up with these kind of nonsense comments.

Including, perhaps infamously, when I responded that way to Jon Henke, to the degree he has leaned left in the past. That point alone, should illustrate something that he has as yet failed to realize, or to at least publicly acknowledge ;

Anybody coming in here, or anywhere I am for that matter, and expressing the misbegotten ideas he does, would, get precisely the same responses, and so they do.... And, not just from me.

Mona, for example, though Mona had less chutzpah.

But attitudes aside, It is not, as Erb claims, about emotions and insults , (At least from our side... Erb’s side, I’m not so sure about.... but for us...)...it’s about the IDEAS....

And by the way Scott, the 10 billion barrels that you cite was the initial assessment. You may recall that Prudhoe bay far outstripped its initial assessment. Thereby if ANWR outstrips IT’S initial assessment by similar amounts, it would in fact contain more oil than we have access to in the Middle East.

But don’t let near facts get your way.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
And by the way Scott, the 10 billion barrels that you cite was the initial assessment. You may recall that Prudhoe bay far outstripped its initial assessment. Thereby if ANWR outstrips IT’S initial assessment by similar amounts, it would in fact contain more oil than we have access to in the Middle East.
Wow, Bithead, you’ll go to such lengths to avoid having to admit someone on the "side" you disagree with is right about anything.

That says something about you: nothing you say can be trusted or taken seriously, for you it’s all rhetoric games.

So you’re saying that if the CURRENT (not initial) government and geological estimates on recoverable oil are off by 7000%, then Scott Jacobs would be right. Any reason to think they’d be off by that much? If one field produces more than originally thought, does that mean we have to assume others will too, by 7000%?

But it gets better: he said explicitly the most pessimistic estimates place more oil in Anwar than the Mideast. The current estimates are far short of that, so clearly it is impossible for Scott’s claim to be accurate. He was wrong. Here’s a challenge for you Bithead: can you dance around that one, or will you finally have to admit that I was right in noting that Scott J. made a demonstrably false claim? Is it that phrase you slipped in which Scott did not use "we have access to" in the Mideast? Is that the grease you’re going to use to try to twist words and logic and wiggle out of this?
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Fine.

I’ll cop to an error.

I was wrong about ANWAR’s 1998 estimated oil field.

No yuo can start admitting to your litany of intellectuallt bankrupt ideas and statements. Cease your attempts draw moral parallells between terrorists and US policy. Cease your efforts to place the blame of Global Terror at the feet of US Foreign Policy.

Cease being such a f*cking tool...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://

No yuo can start admitting to your litany of intellectuallt bankrupt ideas and statements. Cease your attempts draw moral parallells between terrorists and US policy. Cease your efforts to place the blame of Global Terror at the feet of US Foreign Policy.
Sure, point out what ideas are bankrupt and explain why, and if you are right, I’ll gladly admit it and thank you for the help in seeing more clearly.

I’m not sure what you mean by moral parallels between terrorists and US foreign policy. You’ll have to explain that one.

In analyzing the causes of terrorism, it’s pretty clear American policy does play a role; the is multi-causal, however, and the roots go back decades. Here is something you need to understand: truth does not follow the rules of political correctness. If it is true that American policy does play a role in fueling terrorism, then we have to admit it. You can’t just label it "bankrupt" and try to use emotion to deny it. You actually have to confront ideas. You’re going from the gut here, use the head.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
So you’re saying that if the CURRENT (not initial) government and geological estimates on recoverable oil are off by 7000%
You seem to be regarding such figures as unarguable. Were they or were they not that far off in Prudhoe bay, Scott?

This is hardly rhetorical; this is central to the argument. I am not only suggesting that they’ve seriously underestimated the amount of oil there, but that they have a track record for doing so. More, since they seem to be interested in putting a chokehold on America’s domestic energy reserves, they are more motivated to be projecting a smaller amount of reserves available, then they were even in the case of Prudhoe.

Given the underestimation of Prudhoe bay, at the very least the estimates of availabilities within ANWR have a credibility problem... and they are likely at least as seriously off as the estimates for Prudhoe bay.

And I notice, Scott, you ignore the rest of my comments.
Interesting.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
"You don’t know me at all."

Scott Erb, Man of Mystery. Evidently all his writings here and on his own blog are self-confessed falsehoods.


"But I am not responsible for how you interpret my words,..."

LOL. Lovely. Words don’t always mean what they mean. I guess that makes you a Post Modernist discussant.


"But as timactual points out, that makes me a bit boring"

You might add pompous, verbose, condescending, and contradictory, if not dishonest, etc.

" I do so without becoming a caricature"

Man, do yourself a favor and get a mirror!

" Confronting me means that they might find their ideas weak, or unable to withstand logical scrutiny. I think that is a threat, and one that is probably more affective than cognitive, I doubt their reactions are purposeful evasion."

Jeebers! Narcissism verging on paranoia.

"apparently you have very set ideas and are emotionally tied to them."

And apparently you are so ignorant that you think having emotions precludes rational discussion. With experience you may learn to separate the one from the other in a discussion. You are really taking this Mr. Spock business to a quite irrational level. You also have cause and effect conveniently reversed. People do not dispute your aconclusions, etc. because they detest you, they detest you for your ideas and pseudo-logic.

One last thing(for now), don’t let all this calumny drive you away. Every group needs a scapegoat, and if you leave they might pick me.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
So you’re saying that if the CURRENT (not initial) government and geological estimates on recoverable oil are off by 7000%

You seem to be regarding such figures as unarguable. Were they or were they not that far off in Prudhoe bay, Scott?
Bithead, you should actually post data about your claims on Prudhoe bay. It’s slippery to use rhetorical questions and avoid taking a stance, hoping no one will actually know the facts.

No, Prudhoe bay initial estimates were not off by anywhere close to 7000%. The initial estimates were for 9.6 billion barrells of oil. It has produced 13 billion, and there is believed to be about 3 billion more. Oil production peaked there in 1988 (peaked in the US as a whole in 1970). The current estimates (which are more advanced than initial estimates) of 10 billion in Anwar, if off by as much as Prudhoe, would mean that there might be 17 billion barrels of oil there. That would be nice, though errors can go the other direction too — there might be less recoverable oil.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
No, Prudhoe bay initial estimates were not off by anywhere close to 7000%.
The field was only supposed to last ten years at the outside, and at far less output per day than it’s been producing. That the fields capacity was seriously underestimated is beyond question.

BP’s internal documents are reporting:
"BP Alaska anticipates that net production from current proved reserves allocated to the BP Working Interests will exceed 90,000 barrels per day until the year 2012. The occurrence of major gas sales could accelerate the time at which BP Alaska’s net production would fall below 90,000 barrels per day, due to the consequent decline in reservoir pressure. BP Alaska projects continued economic production after 2012 at a declining rate until the year 2065; however, for the economic conditions and production forecast as of December 31, 2005, it is estimated that royalty payments will cease following the year 2023."
How many years has it been going, now, Scott? And the thing is, those dates of been revised into the future several times over, as are drilling and refining technologies improve.

Meanwhile, as regards the effect of ANWR on enegery reserves, Human Events,reported last year:

While Prudhoe Bay produces an impressive 400,000 barrels per day, the Energy Information Agency estimates that peak production from ANWR would likely be 900,000 barrels per day - an incredible 225% of Prudhoe Bay. And if removing Prudhoe Bay’s production for just a few months can "shock" oil markets and induce a supply crisis severe enough to merit the mobilization of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve, imagine what adding more than two Prudhoe Bays to the world supply for several decades could accomplish.
Even with the established estimates, what we’re talking about here is a capacity twice that of what Prudhoe eventually became. And recall, please, Prudhoe blew away all the original estimates.

You, of course, believe none of these; apparently wishing to believe that it’s all over estimated, and it’s not worth drilling for. I can’t imagine that with your attitude, you never make much on the stock market. I can see why you’re not an inventor; what you invent, might not work, therefore it’s useless to try. And so on.

Now... you were saying?




 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
Sorry, Bithead. Prudhoe Bay at its peak produced 2 million barrels a day in 1988. You’re comparing peak Anwar production, which your quote expects to be 900,000 barrels of oil per day, with Prudhoe bay NOW, nearly 20 years past its peak!

But you are really hurting yourself here Bithead. You post figures that suggest Anwar’s peak will be less than half of Prudhoe’s peak. And where on earth do you get the claim that the field was only going to last 10 years at the outset?! I think you’re making this stuff up as you go along.

Moreover, why do you think I believe it’s not worth drilling in Anwar? I specifically said I wasn’t sure on that, I’d have to read a lot more before I could take a stand on that issue. If anything, I lean towards more exploratory drilling. I just took issue with false statements, like Anwar had more than the Mideast. Even if Anwar has twice the estimated reserves (and again, there is no reason to believe the geologists are wrong, they may even be over-estimating) it still will only be a drop in the bucket of the world wide oil market.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
You think I made up those quotes, Scott ? (Chuckle) You appear to be running on a defenses for your position.


In any event;
And where on earth do you get the claim that the field was only going to last 10 years at the outset?!
Because unlike the minds full of mush who sop up your every utterance, I was actually around when drilling there was first being debated, Scott. the field has already produced well beyond those initial estimates. We have no reason to believe that ANWR wouldn’t be better, yet, given our extraction methods have improved, and given the history of under-estimation.







 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
No, Bithead, you know that. Here’s what I said:
And where on earth do you get the claim that the field was only going to last 10 years at the outset?! I think you’re making this stuff up as you go along.
So, where in your "quotes" (which actually had Anwar’s peak at half of what Prudhoe’s was, weakening your position) does this ten year figure come from. Nowhere. I think you’re making stuff up. The initial estimate was 9.6 billion barrels. It will likely produce over 16 billion. That shoes the initial estimate was indeed low. But Anwar’s current estimate of 10.6 billion is based on solid geology, and even if it were off as much as Prudhoe’s, that would only be 17 billion or so, a drop in the bucket compared to the world oil market.

You’ve been oily here, Bithead, trying so hard to run away from the facts. In the last post you resort to an old tactic, saying "you remember the debates" and "you were there." So despite the fact the evidence supports what I’ve been writing, you still aren’t able to admit that. Thank you for demonstrating precisely what you are all about.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
I think you’re making this stuff up as you go along
.

So, I pulled the stories, and the links out of thin air.

Got it.

. But Anwar’s current estimate of 10.6 billion is based on solid geology,
So was the estimate for Prudhoe bay. Yet, as you keep ignoring, they got it wrong. Drastically so. I think intentionally so.
Thank you for demonstrating precisely what you are all about.
Yes, I’m sympathetic; I can fully imagine how the truth would bother you.

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
God, Bithead, when someone can look one post up and see that you deleted the point where I said I thought you were making up the ten year bit and instead pretend I’m talking about the quotes, it’s really obvious that you’re trying to dodge, weave and evade. You think you’re slippery, but you’ve been nailed.

You say I’m ignoring that Prudhoe bay’s estimates were low, but I didn’t and even talked about what it would mean if Anwar’s were just as off, and how that wouldn’t make a difference in the world market. You ignore that too, and lie and say that I ignored it. You are simply being greasy. But you can’t get away with it because all one has to do is look at the previous post. You are wearing your dishonesty on your sleeves!

Thanks for showing us what you are.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
But Anwar’s current estimate of 10.6 billion is based on solid geology,
Solid geology that’s almost 20 years old...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Now, Jake, why would you twist facts, that way?
I mean, you’re not suggesting Erb is WRONG, now, are you? That couldn’t possibly be true....
(Smirk)

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
Well, Bithead, at least I didn’t say that by the most pessimistic estimates Anwar has as much oil as the Mideast. I cite the estimates, and give data on Prudhoe Bay. You try to twist and grease that in ways to criticize me, essentially arguing that the geologists must be wrong because they were wrong about Prudhoe bay, but ignore my point that if they are just as wrong about Anwar it’s still not significant on the world market (which doesn’t mean we shouldn’t drill, mind you). Yet while you are mocking me, you side with someone who said that Anwar had as much oil as the entire Mideast (Mideast about 700 billion barrels, Anwar 10 billion, or if the estimate is as off as Prodhoe about 17 or 18 billion). You are demonstrating that you are simply playing rhetoric games, unconcerned about truth or real discussion. That dog don’t hunt no more. Your time is past, the polity is moving on.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Erb;
arguing that the geologists must be wrong because they were wrong about Prudhoe bay
I’m saying, Scott, that they’re not nearly as reliable as you make them out to be. A point which you have yet to admit. Apparently, it runs afoul of your "alternate energy " narrative.

Thing is, Scott, people know you too well, anymore.

Examples:
"You don’t know me at all."

Scott Erb, Man of Mystery. Evidently all his writings here and on his own blog are self-confessed falsehoods.
And being a "citizen of the world" leads to faith in the UN and has proven itself to be dangerous to no one but the victims of genocide and tyranny in all corners of the world. That is "evil disguised as virtue." And it is encouraged by the likes of you.

Scott, if you really believe that way, then you should not "enjoy" the Fourth of July, and in fact, should make a point to head into work that day. Principles, man, principles. Resist the lure of the barbecued meats and pretty fireworks.

Thanks Scott.

I’ll be sure to piss on your hydrant next May Day

" I do so without becoming a caricature"

Man, do yourself a favor and get a mirror!
If there is an "image" in all this, then you’re the one responsible for that. Not me or anyone else. I take you at your words, and they are yours. When you came prancing into the Whitewater group more than ten years ago now, I was the first one who saw what you are, and everybody paying attention knows that I was right about you. I still am.
Cease being such a f*cking tool...
And that, mind you...is just part of the comments directed at you in this thread alone.

As an offhand guess, Scott, I’d say...Your bluff is called. Or to coin a phrase... Your time is past, the polity is moving on.

Blow away.

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
Now, totally defeated and unwilling to address the issue, Bithead scours the thread for insults against an opponet and posts those in order to avoid confronting his utter failure! Hilarious!

Poor Bithead: defeated, wrong, and frustrated. Hilarious. Oh well, thank goodness you’re not in a position of any responsibility. You do no harm in your anti-rational games. Now, if you were a teacher or a policy maker, *that* would be a different story.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Good old Scott. Still hasn’t changed. Figures because he gets the last word in, he’s won the argument.

I’ll tell you something, you missed your calling, you should have been selling used cars. Then again, maybe you are.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us

 
Add Your Comment
  NOTICE: While we don't wish to censor your thoughts, we do blacklist certain terms of profanity or obscenity. This is not to muzzle you, but to ensure that the blog remains work-safe for our readers. If you wish to use profanity, simply insert asterisks (*) where the vowels usually go. Your meaning will still be clear, but our readers will be able to view the blog without worrying that content monitoring will get them in trouble when reading it.
Comments for this entry are closed.
Name:
Email:
URL:
HTML Tools:
Bold Italic Blockquote Hyperlink
Comment:
   
 
Vicious Capitalism

Divider

Buy Dale's Book!
Slackernomics by Dale Franks

Divider

Divider