QandO

See? I KNEW if I kept reading you long enough, you'd write something to make me stand up and cheer. (grin)

Well done!

Posted by: bithead at August 13, 2004 03:30 PM

What, have I been slipping? Uncheerable until now? :)

Posted by: Jon Henke at August 13, 2004 03:35 PM

Uh, didn't you get the memo? "Liberal" is synonymous with "nonpartisan".

In the Liberal Dictionary, at least.

Posted by: W at August 13, 2004 04:21 PM

Well, he's only been reading you for the past five minutes...

Posted by: Christopher Cross at August 13, 2004 04:27 PM

And not a single one of the can present one shread of factual evidence to prove Kerry's claims or to disprove the Swift Vets claims.

Posted by: jcrue at August 13, 2004 06:01 PM

I can't speak for others, but I - unlike the Swift Boat Vets - have never denied who signs my paychecks.

Posted by: Oliver at August 13, 2004 06:38 PM

I wasn't aware that the SBVs denied it, or that they were being criticized for denying it. What I have seen is criticism for the mere existence of that sponsorship.

And, as far as I can tell, they're not being paid to do what they're doing....they're just having their expenses underwritten, which is quite a bit different.

For the record: I don't have a problem with a pundit/critic being paid to be a pundit/critic. I do have a problem with people who are partisan above all else, and I have a problem with these people criticizing others for exactly what they do themselves.

Being paid to lie is one thing...as in the case of the Arkansas troopers. Getting support to disseminate your opinion is quite another, and not objectionable in and of itself. (heck, I'd like to be sponsored, and I'm cheap...:)

Posted by: Jon Henke at August 13, 2004 06:46 PM

To my knowledge, SBVT has not denied where their funding has come from either. They may not be shouting it from the rooftops but have they ever said "We did not receive money from that man, Mr. Perry?"

Oh, and just so you critics of SBVT understand, receiving a donation from a member of the Republican Party is not the same thing as receiving a donation from the Republican party itself.

And just so you all understand this, too, the source of funding is absolutely irrelevant to the question of whether or not SBVT is telling the truth. To say so is to engage in a classic ad hominem attack which, may I remind you, is one of the logical fallacies. Attacking the source of the money when you can't refute the message is intellectually dishonest and an insult to the intelligence of your readers.

Posted by: RadarRider at August 13, 2004 06:53 PM

Sadly, logical fallacies, and ad hominem attacks in particular, have become all too common in modern political discourse, it seems especially from the Left.

Posted by: Brian B at August 13, 2004 07:44 PM

SBVFT are a 527 organization. Their funding is a matter of public record filed with the IRS just like .

opensecrets.org has now added them to their site

OpenSecrets/SwiftVets

Posted by: Bill at August 13, 2004 09:07 PM

Swift Boat Veterans being criticized because Jerome Corsi co-author "Unfit for Command" is a racist and has a history posting bigoted comments. Now I understand that you may not have a problem with this, but do you really expect the rest of us to take a guy seriously who sounds like a clan member when he thinks nobody is listening. When you use a bigot and his henchmen to attack a highly decorated war veteran, it says a lot about you but nothing about John Kerry.

Posted by: Mario at August 16, 2004 11:06 AM

Uh, Mario ... what Corsi is or isn't has nothing to do with whether what is written in the book is factually correct.

What you're saying is if David Duke says "the sky is blue", you'd not believe him because he's a racist.

Deal with the facts and quit trying to change the subject.

Posted by: McQ at August 16, 2004 11:10 AM

Whatever David Duke said I wouldn't be listening. I don't associate with racist or read books by bigots since most are are also shameless liars. Why do you?

Posted by: Mario at August 16, 2004 11:42 AM

Hey Mario, thanks for proving the point by totally avoiding the question.

You don't care about the facts. Instead this is an excuse you can use to ignore them.

How intellectually honest of you.

Posted by: McQ at August 16, 2004 11:46 AM

Mario: I previously linked to a post by Oliver Willis in which he criticized Corsi, and I added my criticism, as well. As far as I'm concerned, we can toss any of Corsi's claims out, and consider his word suspect.

Of course, that leaves a couple hundred other people.

Posted by: Jon Henke at August 16, 2004 11:47 AM

Ahhhh, Mr. Corsi's friends. It's not hard to figure the type people Mr. Corsi associates with though they are harder to identify nowdays because they lack the hoods.

Posted by: Mario at August 16, 2004 12:01 PM

Mr Corsi's friends? What prior relationship does Corsi have to the 200+ Swift Boat Veterans that is not also shared by, for example, John Kerry?

In the end, we've agreed with you that Mr Corsi is a disreputable character. But that doesn't address the claims of people who are not, in fact, Mr Corsi.

Posted by: Jon Henke at August 16, 2004 12:07 PM

Uhhh, they chose Mr Corsi to co-author their book and to act as one of their frontmen until his remarks became public knowledge. As I said when you use a bogot to attack a highly decorated veteran, it says a lot about you. The "Swift Boat Veterans" use of this bigot to attack John Kerry is as Sen. John McCain said "dishonest and dishonorable".

Posted by: Mario at August 16, 2004 12:26 PM

So Mario, should we then discount the entire Democrat party because they embrace Sen. Byrd of WVA, a former officer in the KKK?

Or should we consider whether the facts Sen. Byrd puts forth stand on their own or not?

Posted by: McQ at August 16, 2004 12:29 PM

Your argument would make a lot of sense if the democratic party were using Sen. Byrd to attack Sen. McCain or George Bush senior. But they aren't, and it doesn't. For more on racist who became Senators see Republican Sen. Strom Thurmond.

Posted by: Mario at August 16, 2004 01:48 PM

LOL!

Mario, you're priceless. You're 2 for 2 in question avoidance.

You've given us all a good bit of insight as to how the left defines "intellectual honesty."

Thanks.

Posted by: McQ at August 16, 2004 01:50 PM

Mario, I really wish you'd stay on point.

You argue that previously stated racism should render meaningless anything we hear from that racist, and anybody who stands with him....whether it is related to race or not.

Fine. So, let's remove everybody who has sided with a racist on any topic from political discourse. That would include Bill Clinton, by the way.

You also ignore the fact that we've agreed that Corsi is an objectionable and unreliable person. Fine. Remove his accusations from the conversation.

Nevertheless, that leaves us with a couple hundred+ people who have no personal relationship with Corsi.

Your allegations against Corsi are correct. But when you extrapolate that to the other people involved, you engage in classic ad hominem.

Posted by: Jon Henke at August 16, 2004 01:53 PM

I understand that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth would now like to distance themselves from Mr. Corsi, one of the authors of their book "Unfit for Command," since his racist remarks have become public knowledge. It's unclear to me why they should be allowed to do this since he is one of authors of their book.

Posted by: Mario at August 16, 2004 02:08 PM

For one thing, Mario, because his racism has absolutely nothing--zero, zilch, nada--to do with their charges.

Jeebus, you're not even a very good troll.

Posted by: Jon Henke at August 16, 2004 02:14 PM

They're trying to make an issue of John Kerry's character by saying he, the men that seved on his boat, and the Navy lied about "his decorated wartime record", but I shouldn't make an issue of their character. Hope you don't mind if I ignore that advice.

P.S. Not a troll. Followed link at www.tacitus.org. Blame Bird Dog, he won't mind.

Posted by: Mario at August 16, 2004 02:27 PM

So obviously you're unaware that it has now been shown that Alston, who was on his boat and claimed to be there when he won his Silver Star has been shown to have lied about that? You can read about it here.

Just wondering?

Posted by: McQ at August 16, 2004 02:30 PM

You're not trying to "make an issue of their character", Mario. You're trying to "make an issue of Corsi's character". And we agree.

Then you try to extrapolate something onto a few hundred guys whose only connection to Corsi is that he wrote down what they said. That's a logical fallacy, and it doesn't prove your point, so I'm having trouble seeing why you keep advancing it, as it Corsi's completely unrelated racism impinges on the SBV allegation.

You're acting like a troll, because you keep restating your allegation, without addressing the points McQ and I have made.

Posted by: Jon Henke at August 16, 2004 02:31 PM

Alston is black isn't he? Only a matter of time before he was attacked by these guys. Oh, but I'm sure racism had nothing to do with it.

Posted by: Mario at August 16, 2004 02:44 PM

Actually, I thought the discussion of Alston began with some bloggers, or something like that. I'm not aware of any Corsi involvement.

Perhaps you could enlighten me.

Alternately, perhaps you could discuss the merits of the allegation.

Understand, I like dissent. I think it's great, and we need more dissenters commenting here. I just like it when it's done well, and you're not doing that. Rote recitation of allegations, followed by debate-avoidance, is just trolling.

Posted by: Jon Henke at August 16, 2004 02:47 PM

His color's irrelevant. The fact he lied is relevant. The only person playing the race card here is you. So I suppose that makes your statement racist, huh?

Look, if you can't do any better than this, why not toddle off and inflict your petty nonsense on someone else? Its obvious you're not part of the left's "A Team" when it comes to debate.

Posted by: McQ at August 16, 2004 02:48 PM

I see, it makes you angry because I don't take the allegations of a racist or the people who are sympathetic to his smear campaign on a decorated veteran seriously. So noted.

Posted by: Mario at August 16, 2004 03:10 PM

Uh, thanks Mario. Appreciate all you brought to the debate.

[/sarcasm]

Posted by: McQ at August 16, 2004 03:28 PM