QandOQuestions and Observations |
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add tort reform and it gets even better. Posted by: Mr. K at August 26, 2004 09:22 AM |
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Both surveys have their use but Greenspan addressed this head on a few months when he said that to measure total jobs created the correct indicator is the household survey.
Posted by: GT at August 26, 2004 09:52 AM |
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hehe, I meant the payroll survey. Oh well... Posted by: GT at August 26, 2004 09:54 AM |
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I think you mean to write "payroll survey", which is what I recall Greenspan saying. Blogged about it here, but I don't have time to look up the link. I'm sure you could do a search (lower lefthand sidebar) to find it. He did say that, and I tend to agree with him to the extent that the establishment (payroll) survey contains a more extensive, broad measure of jobs. It simply has a larger sample. However, it's also worth bearing in mind, as Dale said, that some comination of the two surveys is likely the reality. They do, after all, measure different things. Posted by: Jon Henke at August 26, 2004 09:57 AM |
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Both surveys have weird quirks. The most obvious flaw in the payroll survey is that there are at least 15 million people employed in this country that it ignores by definition. It considers people employed but on unpaid leave to be unemployed, counts a worker with two jobs as two workers, etc. Frankly, I think the notion that the government can accurately make a weekly assessment of the exact number of employed in the country is somewhat dubious. Posted by: Lance Jonn Romanoff at August 26, 2004 10:26 AM |
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Over at EconoPundit, Steve Antler had this description of the Payroll vs. Household surveys: Household Survey: measures the degree to which individuals feel it is to their advantage to be gainfully employed by others or themselves. Payroll Survey: measures the degree to which firms feel it is to their advantage to hire, reduce their paid workforce, or maintain the status quo. We've seen the number of jobs shrink according to the Payroll Survey. But consumer spending has increased steadily. If people aren't working, where are they finding the money to spend? To me, that's been a sign that the Payroll Survey may be lagging the real economy. Posted by: Steverino at August 26, 2004 10:45 AM |
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Those interested in a more detailed critique of the payroll survey may wish to see Tim's analysis, referenced in the USA Today piece and available here: Posted by: Andrew Grossman at August 26, 2004 11:10 AM |
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If employment is in fact higher than the payroll numbers indicate, then the question becomes why are we operating in record deficit territory? When employment numbers were high in the 90's, we had a surplus. Bush hasn't cut the size of government, but he hasn't created any new major programs either. And yes, government spending outpaces inflation. But not on a level that would account for the current deficit. Only two explanations present themselves: Revenue is down because there simply aren't that many people working. Or Bush's tax cuts are not having their promised effect, i.e., increased revenue. Funny how that works. Posted by: mkultra at August 26, 2004 04:06 PM |
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MK: well, one explanation would be to point to a large part of the reason we had such good revenues in the late 90s....capital gains were skyrocketing. (they didn't call it a "bubble" for nothing) A very large--and impermanent--part of the 90s tax revenue came from those sky-high capital gains taxes and sky-rocketing incomes. When the bubble burst, that revenue source dried up so fast, you could smell the money burning away. Hey, that's what happens when you lose trillions of dollars in asset valuation. Posted by: Jon Henke at August 26, 2004 04:11 PM |
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If employment is in fact higher than the payroll numbers indicate, then the question becomes why are we operating in record deficit territory? The two are only marginally related. We're spending a whole lot more now than we were before 2001, and as Jon pointed out, much of the surplus was due to capital gains realized during the stock market bubble. Much of the recession was caused by the market bubble bursting, because businesses were no longer able to raise the capital in order to grow. Only two explanations present themselves: Sorry, false dilemma. There are more than two explanations that present themselves. Posted by: Steverino at August 26, 2004 04:19 PM |
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