September 03, 2004

Terrorists and children
Posted by McQ

Apparently the kidnapping in Russia is over, but it appears it ended badly.

Russian troops stormed a school Friday in a chaotic battle to free hundreds of parents, teachers and children who had been held hostage for two days by Chechen separatists.

Naked and screaming children ran for safety amid machinegun fire and explosions while attack helicopters clattered overhead. The Tass and Interfax news agencies spoke of over 300 wounded, mostly children. Rebels fled with soldiers in pursuit.

Witnesses at the scene in Beslan, in the North Ossetia region near Chechnya, saw several bodies on stretchers and Russian news agencies said at least seven people had been dead on arrival at hospital.

According to some reports I've heard, about 100 or so kids may have been killed. Most, per this report, may have been gunned down by the terroists as they attempted to escape.

Shot in the back.

I think about that and imagine my 4 grandsons. And it is those thoughts which have me come to the same conclusion as Zell Miller, that between the two candidates, I have higher confidence in Bush to carry the war to the terrorists than I do in John Kerry.

One other point that bothers me about this particular incident. How in the world did the terrorists get out of the school and away?

Most likely because the Russian military didn't take charge of the scene and area, move parents and relatives out of the way to a protected area, isolate the area and completely seal all escape routes. It doesn't take a military genius to do something like that ... just a competant one.

UPDATE: From a radio report, Russia is claiming that 9 of the terrorists which were killed were "Arab mercenaries". Not Islamic fundamentalist. Not jihadists. Not terrorists. Mercenaries.

Yeah, right.

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Comments

Russia seems to handle these things a bit too ham-fistedly. Remember the Opera House takeover? They killed everyone by pumping in too much gas.

If Putin wants to nuke the terrorists, I say he goes for it.

Posted by: shark at September 3, 2004 09:40 AM

'bout the only thing that kept the terrorists from killing everyone this time is that they didn't bring enough explosive to do the job right (that's their aim to began with). When they get their hands on tactical nukes, you can kiss Moscow and St. Petersburg goodbye.

Posted by: BigFire at September 3, 2004 09:42 AM

In reply to Shark: Regarding the Opera House; the military did not pump too much gas in. They mixed incorrect quantites of the chemicals to produce the gas; thereby making it deadly.

It is not up to America to impose its "policing" on countries that do not effect America's security. If that was the case then why has your government allowed thousands of people to be killed on a daily basis in Sudan...oops I forgot, there's no oil in Sudan and therefore no reason for your country to step in.

Posted by: Emma at September 3, 2004 09:52 AM

Actually there is oil in the Sudan, Emma, and unless you've been living in a cave, you'd know the US has been leading the fight to get the violence stopped in Sudan. As usual the third-world debating club known as the UN has done nothing and the Europeans sent a "fact-finding" mission there and concluded it wasn't "genocide" so they could safely ignore it.

Posted by: McQ at September 3, 2004 09:58 AM

I think that they probably did seal the escape routes but the terrorists where using human shields.

Posted by: andy at September 3, 2004 10:09 AM

How much oil have we pumped out of Bosnia lately? Any count on the # of barrels per day?

And our guys really hosed up that hostage extraction in the school in Russia. Guess our policing troops got out of there before the cameras could catch them.

Posted by: looker at September 3, 2004 10:09 AM

In reply to Shark: Regarding the Opera House; the military did not pump too much gas in. They mixed incorrect quantites of the chemicals to produce the gas; thereby making it deadly

Thanks for the clarification Emma

Posted by: shark at September 3, 2004 10:09 AM

well as an iraqi here i apreciete what Mr.Bush did , maybe not completing the job yet but we belive in giving time , and i believe in teh russian case the russians HAD to act like that in both cases the school and opera , you must put in your mind that this people don't plan to go out alive so even if their demands were met they will probably end up killing everybody because their aim is to kill not to get their demands met , so in the opera house you must know that most than half the hostages lived so what is better half dead or all dead !!! ,andin the school part they could have arranged it better but it seems to me that this city is very far from the central command for some reason ! plus knowing the people of these areas ( iraqis have similar mentality ) i assure you there's absulotly no way to convince the parents to stay away without shooting them !!

Posted by: MSa at September 3, 2004 10:11 AM

Yes, but the oil in Sudan is inaccessible to the US because of the sanctions imposed. Additionally, the UN have recently, more precisely, yesterday, assisted the AU to reach an agreement between rebel groups.

Posted by: Emma at September 3, 2004 10:14 AM

i assure you there's absulotly no way to convince the parents to stay away without shooting them !!

You move them, if necessary, by brute force. You do what the NYPD did to disruptive protesters this week. I'd much rather have parents alive to be upset at me afterward than to have them in the line of firing or interfering with the operation. All they can do is hurt the operation and jeopardize its success. There is no upside to them being there.

That's how you clear the area and isolate it. There is no reason, to include compassion for their plight, which should override and jeopardize the success of the rescue.

From what I've read, they didn't do that and that was their first mistake.

Posted by: McQ at September 3, 2004 10:16 AM

Ah, now there IS oil in Sudan but its not available to the US? I see.

Well gee, Emma, according to your line of reasoning, it would appear then that there's all the more reason for the US to go in there, huh? Another good "war of oil", eh?

As for the agreement, they had another which the government of the Sudan didn't live up to which expired a week ago.

Somehow it appears those who think the UN will actually do something forget the 10 years they wrote nasty notes to Iraq while it was murdering its citizens. Why in the world would I expect anything the UN has done concerning the Sudan to be any different?

I'm from Missouri ... "show me".

Posted by: McQ at September 3, 2004 10:21 AM

The parents were angry and armed !! will you be happy trying to stop them trying to save their children!!, plus it's appearant that they didn't have enough troops around to break into the building and seal the building , because from what i hear at teh news the building was well sealed till the breakout happend , and belive me when people are running out of a building under gun fire the last thing a soldier will think of is to check everyone going out and stop people going it , think of it from a human point of view, will you run to pick up a child or stop a parent running in !!

Posted by: Msa at September 3, 2004 10:22 AM

So? What did the military have, sticks?

Look, if you're comfortable with trying to run a hostage rescue with all sorts of people interfering and getting in the way, you'll see results like they had.

I'm arguing that one of the reasons that the rescue came off so poorly is because they didn't do the necessary things to secure and isolate the area. I think that's an obvious point. Why it happened is really irrelevant. That it did happen is the point and one of the reasons it went so poorly.

Posted by: McQ at September 3, 2004 10:26 AM

Will the concept of deterrence work with those whose only apparent goals are to kill massive numbers of civilians? What would happen if Russia decided to level a city (perhaps allowing locals to leave, or perhaps not, beforehand) in retaliation for every such attack on their civilian population? Would the certainty of material or human loss on a massive scale convince the supporters of those performing attacks on civilians that the cost/benefit ratio was not in their favor?

Posted by: me at September 3, 2004 10:27 AM

Not to the fanatics. If they're willing to kill children as well as die for their cause, why would that impress them?

Posted by: McQ at September 3, 2004 10:28 AM

Emma - Or SERBIA- another major oil exporter to the world.


Posted by: looker at September 3, 2004 10:33 AM

No, there is less reason to go in because of the sanctions. Anyway, no offence 'cos I think the US military are trained to a very high degree, but at the same time, I think they would be out of their depth in a guerilla war.
I seriously doubt international politics is as black and white and as simple you make it out to be Mc..if the world was like that then it would be easy for the UN to sort things out. I can't continue this conversation...time for me to head home from work. Also, I'm not a child who falls for the "show me" mentality. Regardless, I'm sure everyone else on this page, would rather read people's discussions on Russia.

Posted by: Emma at September 3, 2004 10:36 AM

Perhaps they need to build a wall and seal themselves off from the Chechens, if that is even possible given the geography of the situation.

Otherwise they're going to need to take extremely draconian steps

Posted by: shark at September 3, 2004 10:36 AM

No it won't work , this is a terrorists way of dealing , and it is not working for them too.
and i assure you these people have very very small or no support but that's teh problem with extremist all what they need is teh believe and that's what they have , they have the believe taht they were born to kill and that's what they wana do while teh country forces don't have that aim, look at attacks in iraq in 90% of the cases they don't care about who they kill, they just kill for the sake of killing , like in the attack that killed 70 people few weeks ago the bomber actually waited for a civilian bus to come by him before blowing the car to cause maximum kill !, you don't hear that in the News but we iraqis know and hear that , these people want to KILL whatever was the person they kill it's like you either with us or against us while goverments don't have these concepts thanks god saddam did and thanks god he's roating in jail now

Posted by: Msa at September 3, 2004 10:38 AM

Emma: I didn't bring up the subject. As a reminder, you did. You shotgun some broad insults about the US and then, when your feet are held to the fire, you pretend you'd prefer to talk about the Russian problem and write off the replies you got is a "black and white" view.

Really. How much more black and white can one get
than saying something like ...

It is not up to America to impose its "policing" on countries that do not effect America's security. If that was the case then why has your government allowed thousands of people to be killed on a daily basis in Sudan...oops I forgot, there's no oil in Sudan and therefore no reason for your country to step in.

...hmmm, Emma?

Posted by: McQ at September 3, 2004 10:42 AM

Before I leave. I totally agree Msa, I don't think a wall would work. It didn't work up in Northern Ireland, and I only live a few miles down from there. I don't think it's going too well in Palistine either.

Posted by: Emma at September 3, 2004 10:43 AM

Now they say 10 arabs were in the hostage takers , as an arab i hate these people with all my heart and have no support for them , and i don't know any iraqi who does .
don't know why , when they kill anywhere they are terrorist but whne the same people do it in iraq they are resistance.!!

Posted by: Msa at September 3, 2004 10:45 AM

UPDATE: From a radio report, Russia is claiming that 9 of the terrorists which were killed were "Arab mercenaries". Not Islamic fundamentalist. Not jihadists. Not terrorists. Mercenaries

Well, don't forget, the journalists creedo is "one man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"

Because killing children are what freedom fighters do, sure.

Posted by: shark at September 3, 2004 10:47 AM

the answer is easy , all the Mercenaries arabs who went to fight in chychenia are islamic fundemetalists but how would you know that from the place where you are from we know that because we were there

Posted by: msa at September 3, 2004 10:51 AM

msa: all the Mercenaries arabs who went to fight in chychenia are islamic fundemetalists.


I agree and that's the point. Mercenaries fight for money, not principle. And I'm not buying these guys were there only for some bucks. They were definitely islamic fundamentalists, regardless of how the news services choose to characterize them.

Posted by: McQ at September 3, 2004 10:56 AM

Wise up Mc...I was drawing a parallel to Iraq and the original purpose of that war was to find WMD.
From personal experience, it's sometimes better not to police other countries, but try to talk first.

Posted by: Emma at September 3, 2004 10:57 AM

And 10 years of talking with Iraq yielded exactly what, Emma?

Posted by: McQ at September 3, 2004 11:03 AM

Unless they take some alive, we won't know if they are fundamental, or simply mental.

And mercenaries? Doesn't quite work if they were willing to blow themselves up. Mercencaries like to enjoy the money they made doing mercenary things and blowing yourself up is inconsistent with that goal.

Posted by: looker at September 3, 2004 11:04 AM

Excellent point, looker .... hard to collect the big bucks if your a smoking, bleeding heap.

Posted by: McQ at September 3, 2004 11:06 AM

Msa-

You need to find a TV station somewhere, and repeat what you have said here. More than 1/2 the people here in the US have no idea what the war we are fighting in Iraq is about.

I believe WMD's were really secondary. IMO, the was was about creating an environment where, over time, there would be more people like you in the Middle East...and fewer like those who butcher school children or video tape beheadings of defenseless innocents.

I am afraid that if we are not successful, the war will escalate greatly and millions will be killed.

Posted by: Mr. K at September 3, 2004 11:20 AM

looker: "Unless they take some alive, we won't know if they are fundamental, or simply mental."

You are not stupid; neither are we. So stop acting like it. Please.


Mr. K is on to something. We are NOT in a war with selected regimes; we ARE in a war with Islamofascism. There is no reasoning with them, there is no negotiating, there is no common ground. They are to be destroyed until they are either dead or disabused of the idea that they can conquer the West.

You know the strategic reason we took Iraq (there were plenty of good ones, but I mean why we did it when we did it)? Because now, with Afghanistan, we will be guaranteed at least two invasion routes to Iran. Iran is the key to the region. This administration, and God bless 'em for being adults serious about protecting this country, has always intended to take the mullahs out before the core starts cooking. Syria will not hang on after an Iranian collapse, and then we can reckon with the House of Saud, which just might clean its own stables before we have to. Five years to the virtual elimination of governments which fund, house and protect Islamofascists. And then a genration or more of continual pre-emptive actions against Islamofascist remnants until Arab Islam can face the truth and quit blaming the West for its own incompetence.

Posted by: Jumbo at September 3, 2004 08:36 PM

Jumbo - I should have engaged sarcasm mode beforehand on that segment.

I don't believe for an instant they were mercenaries, and I'm sure they were fundamentalists of one stripe or another.
These guys were fully prepared to die, and more to the point, they were fully prepared to blow the shit out of a bunch of helpless kids in the process. Only someone who is pretty fundamental in their beliefs could buy into this being a path to paradise.

Mercenaries may be the scum of the earth, but they like to live after they've done their daily scummy deeds, otherwise there's no point in being a "mercenary". Hence second para on my post still applies.

Posted by: looker at September 3, 2004 08:56 PM

On the "serves em right" front, I read on the wire that some villagers caught one of the terrorists and beat him to death.

I'm having a hard time thinking that's a problem.
Morally I know that's not the answer, so feel free to call me a fascist on this one. It couldn't possibly have taken long enough.

Posted by: looker at September 3, 2004 09:31 PM

"Jumbo - I should have engaged sarcasm mode beforehand on that segment."

Sorry, looker. I see that now.

Posted by: Jumbo at September 3, 2004 10:22 PM

Jumbo - No problem here, I shouldn't have tried to joke, it's not a funny issue and I regret even attempting sarcastic humor.

I caught enough of the still photos from the outcome that I didn't need to see. Thank God thumbnail shots are small and I wasn't wearing my glasses. Couldn't bring myself to watch the video.

Who the hell can see this, or hear about it, and still tell themselves that we're the evil ones, that we're wrong and that we ought not to be involved in rooting this out stem and branch anywhere it occurs throughout the world. What kind of people can close their eyes to this and condemn us for what we're trying to do?

What was it Burke said? - "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph..."?

Posted by: looker at September 4, 2004 12:13 AM

Mr.K
i'm ready to do that if there was only one channal in the world that is ready to listen without showing the americans as teh criminals and sadam as teh victim!! all media try to view that, teh war in iraq is not between iraqis and americans it's between terrorists and( iraqias and americans ) no one in iraq want to be rules by people like the ones you saw yesterday in russia and that what will happen in the mession in iraq failed!!

Posted by: Msa at September 4, 2004 01:31 AM

i am totally behind putin in his cause to retaliate and i believe that chechnya will see its come up very soon your going to have a nuclear power coming down like a tonne of bricks and hopefully russian vigilantes exacting their revenge and the best of luck to them. Putin was also right to leave charred remains of terrorists out to hang to deter future assaults Russia will be dancing on their graves in no time
It is such a shame that such a tragedy has occured to wake a sleeping giant and let me tell all you neutralists or islamics supporting these twisted humans that you have just woke up another nucler power and no disrespect to islam or muslims as i think civilian islam and muslims are the most respectful people in the world but the day we show off our nuclear arsenal to terrorism i will be more concerned about what is stuck to my shoe than the lives of you dispicable forms of humans you will forever burn in hell next to your twisted idols under the watchful eye of Jesus Christ God and all those you mudered in the past.GOD BLESS BESLAN!!! R.I.P TO ALL

Posted by: UniteAgainstTerrorism at September 7, 2004 05:10 PM