Comments
...and I remember that poison is bipartisan.
But what stature do any of those bloggers have, as compared to the millions upon million of Coulter and Limbaugh fans who have made millionaires of this rancid duo? Some of those links are to pretty obscure blogs, tho Digby is quite high profile.

Digby annoyed me greatly when, about a month ago, he argued as follows: libertarians would limit the govt to police powers, thus libertarians in power would create a police state. But I haven’t seen his best-seller book calling us fascists, treasonous etc.

Written By: Mona
URL: http://
I don’t see that blockquote on the link you’ve posted (it goes to a Delong post on taxes).

Written By: Ugh
URL: http://
Some of those links are to pretty obscure blogs, tho Digby is quite high profile.
Yeah, and Tbogg is tiny as well.

Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Yeah, and Tbogg is tiny as well.
It may be big as well, I’ve just never read it, or barely heard of it.

Written By: Mona
URL: http://
Consider it a corollary to Gresham’s Law — bad political speech drives out good. But I’m afraid that’s just how the world works now, thanks in large part to what your "free" markets have brought us in the way of a corporate-sponsored right-wing media machine.

NOT to match invective with invective and ridicule with ridcule would constitute a form of unilateral disaarmament, and I’m sorry but the left can hardly afford to do that — not as long as Disney puts Rush Limbaugh on umpteen zillion radio stations and General Electric has Ann Coulter in the regular talk show rotation at NBC.

P.S. A little off topic, but your commenting instructions (i.e. how to make them "work safe") says more about the limits, and contradictions, of free market libertarianism than anything I could possibly think of.

Written By: billmon
URL: http://
Then again, Ezra’s usually better than that.

Look at the comments (it’s the last link provided).

Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
You started out very well with this good point...
Consider it a corollary to Gresham’s Law — bad political speech drives out good.
...but the rest was a hash.
But I’m afraid that’s just how the world works now, thanks in large part to what your "free" markets have brought us in the way of a corporate-sponsored right-wing media machine.
If you think over the top, hateful rhetoric is a recent invention from the Right, I don’t even know where to begin. This kind of thing has always been around. I’m quite sure the Right thought they were just responding in kind when they ramped it up long ago.
NOT to match invective with invective and ridicule with ridcule would constitute a form of unilateral disaarmament, and I’m sorry but the left can hardly afford to do that
Do you really want to argue that the Left can’t afford to avoid calling conservatives pedophiles?
P.S. A little off topic, but your commenting instructions (i.e. how to make them "work safe") says more about the limits, and contradictions, of free market libertarianism than anything I could possibly think of.
And I’m not really sure what this even means.

Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.qando.net/
"P.S. A little off topic, but your commenting instructions (i.e. how to make them "work safe") says more about the limits, and contradictions, of free market libertarianism than anything I could possibly think of."
Your boss can’t shoot you, the gov’t can.

What set of "limits" or "contradictions" do you prefer?

Oh wait, you must prefer being shot.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp

Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
A little off topic, but your commenting instructions (i.e. how to make them "work safe") says more about the limits, and contradictions, of free market libertarianism than anything I could possibly think of.
Libertarianism is supposed to mean everyone can do whatever he wants on someone else’s property? Go talk to the anarchists.

Written By: JWG
URL: http://
"P.S. A little off topic, but your commenting instructions (i.e. how to make them "work safe") says more about the limits, and contradictions, of free market libertarianism than anything I could possibly think of."
Hilarious.

The reason we’ve made it "work safe" isn’t to restrict speech, but to get by firewalls which screen out sites which have certain words in them.

But hey, just like the Limbaugh thing, jump to those unsupported conclusions.

I’d have to say that your errant conclusion says more about you than anything I could possibly point out.

Heh...

Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
billmon writes:
P.S. A little off topic, but your commenting instructions (i.e. how to make them "work safe") says more about the limits, and contradictions, of free market libertarianism than anything I could possibly think of.
Hard as I try, I cannot fathom what this means?

And as for this:
NOT to match invective with invective and ridicule with ridcule would constitute a form of unilateral disaarmament, and I’m sorry but the left can hardly afford to do that — not as long as Disney puts Rush Limbaugh on umpteen zillion radio stations and General Electric has Ann Coulter in the regular talk show rotation at NBC.
Look, I think it more than fair game to point to Limbaugh’s many divorces — and the fact that he apparently broke up a marriage with the last (now ex) wife. Gingrich as well. Given all the "family values" platitudes these people spout, that is all fair. (And Ann Coulter dresses like a vixen; I don’t believe it is remotely possible she is untouched by man, notwithstanding her life-long single status, and would not object to anyone pointing out her liaisons in light of her pious tripe and vicious accusations.) But implying that Rush is a child molester is way over the top.



Written By: Mona
URL: http://
...and I remember that poison is bipartisan.
But what stature do any of those bloggers have, as compared to the millions upon million of Coulter and Limbaugh fans who have made millionaires of this rancid duo?
As opposed to the millions upon millions of Micheal Moore fans who have made millionaires out of that rancid clown.

And so, this measurement of stature, it has what to do with the left complaining about the right (under Coulter and Limbaugh) and their nasty commentary and behavior? Are you saying it’s justification for making nasty commentary and supporting bad behavior because it’s only ’little’ people with a small following, so hey, it’s understandable? it’s okay?

Obviously based on your last post, you don’t feel that way, so don’t sound like you defend poison on a small scale just because it’s smaller than poison on a large scale.

Written By: looker
URL: http://
looker writes:
Obviously based on your last post, you don’t feel that way, so don’t sound like you defend poison on a small scale just because it’s smaller than poison on a large scale.
I hold zero objections to pointing out manifest hypocrisy when it is true. But there is no basis for implying that Rush Limbaugh is a pedophile.

As for Michael Moore, I can’t stand him. But his sins are political lunacy far more than rancid personal attacks on individuals or invocations of treason or whatever analog the left could invoke vis-a-vis the right. Altho I grant that the portrait he offered of George Bush in F 9/11 was deranged and vile. (There is enough actual criticism of Bush to employ without going into la la land.)

Written By: Mona
URL: http://
(There is enough actual criticism of Bush to employ without going into la la land.)
Thank you, exactly.
Same for Rush, same for Coulter.

But the stature of the person using the invective shouldn’t be of significance in the discussion.
Especially with the reach of the internet. Invective published for common viewing by a small site is still invective. Every itty bitty site has the potential for a multimillion person audience. Lies told (Rush = pedophile) gather a life of their own in proportion to the desire of any given reader for that lie to be true (for whatever reason).

None of the ’big’ sites started out that way.
Consider internet phenomenons like the "Numa Numa" guy, or Maddox. You really have no idea just how far any one comment or observation or posting on the net can actually spread. Net postings are an informational virus and some things survive and propagate because, for some reason, they are appealing.

So, any poison, has the potential to become big poison.

Written By: looker
URL: http://
I would argue that it’s even more important to point it out in the blogosphere. What chance do we, even as a group, have on affecting the rhetoric and behavior of Rush or Coulter, or Moore? We are able to affect the level of acceptable discourse in the blogosphere. Thus you get more return for your investment when criticizing Ezra Klein for calling Rush Limbaugh a pederast than you do for criticizing Ann Coulter for calling liberal traitors or godless.

Written By: ChrisB
URL: http://
What chance do we, even as a group, have on affecting the rhetoric and behavior of Rush or Coulter, or Moore?
Well, Dan Rather and the guy from CNN might object to that statement but yes, agreed.

Written By: capt joe
URL: http://
What chance? It all depends on how far and fast it spreads doesn’t it?
Someone out there is reading it, or Dan would still have his job, and GWB possibly wouldn’t be in the White House. So Dan makes for an excellent example.

I mean, who’s to say hypothetically that the allegation about Rush isn’t based on some fact that someone (’anonymous sources say’) knows about Rush. (blah blah blah, I was getting on a plane in Durka Durkastan, and I saw Rush Limbaugh with a blah blah blah)

Back in the day, when I started wandering the net and happened on FR, I came across the Lewinsky allegations, as I recall, at least a month ahead of the mainstream media. At the time I remember thinking they were el-toro-ka-ka. Well, whups. Someone who really did know something was blabbing...
but how the hell could I know for sure?

What I’m saying is there are too many people who would read stuff about something, wonder if the author (who may or may not hint that he has inside info) knows something and... bang - suddenly people are doing searches, posting questions, etc. A lot of which starts showing up on search engines, and it takes on a life of it’s own.

Written By: looker
URL: http://
I’d say this tops Digby or any of those lefties musing about Ruch Limbaugh’s sex life:
The Supreme Whores are in dire need of Intervention by Lynch Mob™.

UPDATE: Meanwhile, the American Caliphate Litigating Unit call the Supreme Whores’ surrender to al-Qaeda “a victory for the Rule of Law.” Shariah “law”, maybe. The ACLU, proudly embracing everything that might aid terrorists in bringing about another 9/11. Hang them.
Misha at Anti-idiotarian Rottweiler on the subject of today’s Hamdan decision from SCOTUS.




Written By: Mona
URL: http://
That is priceless.
And no irony, mocking Shariah law while calling for a lynching.
Very thoughtful bit that.


Written By: looker
URL: http://
Oh, no, wouldn’t want to say anything bad about Rush. It’s not like he ever accused a former president of rape, or his wife of murder. Oh, wait, he did and continues to do so. We must always be "civil" to knuckle-dragging bastards.

Written By: Oliver
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
Again - the standard - two wrongs maketh a right. Bravo, well reasoned.

Written By: looker
URL: http://
"...and Ann Coulter dresses like a vixen; I don’t believe it is remotely possible she is untouched by man, notwithstanding her life-long single status, and would not object to anyone pointing out her liaisons..."

Jeebus Chripes! Is this The View? Is the fact that someone in the public view seems likely to have a somewhat normal sex life an appropriate subject for comment? OK. She seems likely to have had liasons. So? My point is that you SHOULD object to anyone pointing out her liaisons. If, that is, you are the libertarian you claim to be.
I won’t even go into the "dresses like vixen" comment [obvious comparison to rape victims being accused of asking for it].
Mona; engage brain before engaging keyboard.

Written By: Robert Fulton
URL: http://
What chance do we, even as a group, have on affecting the rhetoric and behavior of Rush or Coulter, or Moore?
The real question is: what RIGHT do you have?

The answer is: none.

We have laws covering slander and libel. Beyond that, I’m for unrestricted freedom of speech, whether I agree with it or am offended by it.

If you want to make a complete fool of yourself by criticizing Ann Coulter for her "pious tripe" and "vicious accusations" while speculating in the previous breath that she is most likely a slut, knock yourself out. Wanna criticize Michael Moore? Go right ahead.


But you might want to run HypocrisyCheck before you post.

Written By: Jeff
URL: http://
Im not saying dont criticize Rush, Coulter, and Moore. Absolutely disagree and criticize them all you want. I’m just saying that just because they’re "big" is no reason not to criticize the "small" bloggers. Especially since you’re much more likely to have an effect on the blogger.

Ahh Oliver Willis, going for the 2nd grade defense? "Johnny from down the road did it too, why cant I?" I’m sure you wont ever complain of how the "vitriol of the Right is destroying modern politics". It’s Coulter that’s destroying politics, it’s Rush thats destroying politics, it’s YOU who are destroying politics.

Written By: ChrisB
URL: http://
She seems likely to have had liasons. So? My point is that you SHOULD object to anyone pointing out her liaisons. If, that is, you are the libertarian you claim to be.
I won’t even go into the "dresses like vixen" comment [obvious comparison to rape victims being accused of asking for it].
Ann Coulter is not a rape victim. She is a black-leather-miniskirted social conservative who spews crap about the glories of religion and the evils of "liberal" mores, all tarted up in "come hither" rags. Well, the Bible she so extols, and the Xianity she wants to convert all the Muslims to at the point of a gun, forbids fornication. I don’t for three freakin’ seconds believe she abides by what she peddles.

There is nothing wrong with pointing out hypocrisy. For example, every word that Rush Limbaugh has muttered about how all who violate the drug laws deserve lengthy prison terms — and he has had SOOOO much to say about that until, oh, recently — is properly shoved in his face.

(This is enormous fun, saying things that really outrage people. I seldom adopt an eff it attitude as to what I’m willing to say in public, but Ann brings it out in me.)

Written By: Mona
URL: http://
Oh, no, wouldn’t want to say anything bad about Rush. It’s not like he ever accused a former president of rape, or his wife of murder. Oh, wait, he did and continues to do so. We must always be "civil" to knuckle-dragging bastards.
And Filet O’Fish misses the point of this post by a mile...

Written By: Jordan
URL: http://
Please read up on the history of American politics before you go about claiming attacking an attacker is "ruining politics".

Written By: Oliver
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
Good one, Oliver. That’s telling him.

Written By: Jeff
URL: http://repatriate.blogspot.com
Oliver, criticizing Limbaugh is perfectly fine. Nobody has a problem with that. And if you want to call him a "knuckle-dragging bastard", that’s fine, too. It’s not really persuasive, but I’m sure it has its place.

But Digby didn’t criticize him, or call him a "knuckle-dragging bastard". He implied that Limbaugh was a pedophile.

So, what do you think? Do you think that it’s acceptable to imply that your political opponents — even those you really, really dislike — are pedophiles? Does Oliver Willis consider it acceptable to accuse political opponents of raping children?

Considering how outraged you guys routinely get about Ann Coulter, et al, I just sorta assumed you thought that sort of thing was Bad. If I’m mistaken, please let me know.

Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Considering how outraged you guys routinely get about Ann Coulter, et al, I just sorta assumed you thought that sort of thing was Bad. If I’m mistaken, please let me know.
The simple explanation goes as follows.

Bad Things are done by Bad People and Good People always do Good Things. When Bad People do something the Good People must criticise them, because it is always a Bad Thing. When Bad People criticise Good People it is another example of their Badness and opens them up for criticism.

Written By: Unaha-closp
URL: http://
Does Oliver Willis consider it acceptable to accuse political opponents of raping children?
Yes, he does, and he’s proud of it.

Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Does Oliver Willis consider it acceptable to accuse political opponents of raping children
I’m sure Oliver himself has done it at some point...

Written By: shark
URL: http://
not as long as Disney puts Rush Limbaugh on umpteen zillion radio stations and General Electric has Ann Coulter in the regular talk show rotation at NBC.
Exactly. A point I have repeatedly made. And one that Jon simply doesn’t get.

The left does not get upset with Coulter herself. She is a pure cynic. Moreover, the right side of the political divide is filled with lots of hateful speech. But then so is the left.

If that’s your point ... yawn.

What gets the left upset is the platform Coulter’s hate gets. Same for Limbaugh. I listen to Michael Savage every day. Ever hear his show? Yikes.

The hate coming from the left does not get a similar platform. That you have to cite Digby proves the point.

Look, no one would care if Coulter sat in her room alone spewing her garbage. Coulter is not the issue.

Why is it so hard for you to understand this basic point?



Written By: mkultra
URL: http://
mk -

So, let me get this straight. It’s bad no matter who does it, but the Right is better at broadcasting it, therefore it’s okay when the Left broadcasts it?

As an added plus: why do so many Lefties reflexively whip out the word "hate" like it can possibly put others on the defensive? It’s your own shibboleth, buddy; it carries no weight here. And the reason it doesn’t carry weight is that none of us feel like we’re particularly "hateful." And who’s in a better position to identify hatred: the party allegedly feeling it, or those who think they detect it in others?

Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
"The hate coming from the left does not get a similar platform."

Hilarious! Uh, that’s because the Left has colleges, TV, movies and MSM to subtly edge the nation’s politics leftward, you know, FOR THE CHIILLLDDREENNNN.

Written By: yeah, sure...
URL: http://
So, let me get this straight. It’s bad no matter who does it, but the Right is better at broadcasting it, therefore it’s okay when the Left broadcasts it?
Hate is a poison. Let’s agree about that. Let’s also assume, just for sh*ts and giggles, that on each side of the political divide there are people who say hateful things.

Jon’s assertion is that the left does not get as upset about hate on its side than it does about hate coming from the right.

But he does not address the obvious point: If hate is a poison, then one should be more concerned about how far and wide the poison is disseminated than with the fact that the poison exists in the first place.

Jon’s obvious concern is with the coarsening of the political dialogue due to hate speech and the failure of each side to charge its own pundits with propogating such speech.

But Jon misses the obvious point: Size Matters, espcially when it comes to poison. The greater the dissemination of the poison, the more harm. If a blogger with something hateful to say has 10,000 readers, I am far less concerned about him or her than I am about the television or radio personality spewing hate who has millions of listeners or viewers.

That is, if I am worried about the coarsening of the national political dialogue. Jon seems that way, but by not appreciatiing the "dissemination factor," I am not as inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Coulter, Rush, and Savage vs. who on the left? Digby?

BTW, what is Digby’s real name? Do you have a picture of his face? How many major networks has he appeared on? Do millions listen to his radio show? Does he have a show? Does he even have a radio? A TV?



Written By: mkultra
URL: http://
So the left doesn’t have platforms from which to broadcast their invectives.
1) Quit injecting yourself with your own urine. I don’t mean to be presumptuous, but the rumor is that George Balanchine used to put so much pressure on his corps d’ ballet to remain razor-thin that some of them injected themselves with their own urine to keep the pounds off. You look like you’re doing this also.
8) Buy a vibrator.
In addition to all your other problems, I think you need to rack up some quick orgasms. There’s one called "the Rabbit" which I hear gets you going from several different angles at once, if you know what I mean. It was featured in a recent episode of "Sex in the City."
Once you’ve cleared your system of all the toxins that back up when you stop getting off, you should immediately ...
then there is the treatment that Michelle Malkin got on the BIG blog Wonkette.
wonkette: OMG I AM WATCHING MICHELLE MALKIN’S INTERNET VIDEOS FOR THE FIRST TIME
operative: she has internet videos?
operative: does she do the thing with the ping-pong balls?*
And I’m sure examples from the right can be just as quickly located and that, my friends, is exactly Jon’s point. But go ahead, Mona, rationalize.

Written By: tom scott
URL: http://
So the left doesn’t have platforms from which to broadcast their invectives.
Your example is a post on Salon. ’Nuff said.

Written By: mkultra
URL: http://
Anytime mkultra has said "nuff then I am happy.

Written By: tom scott
URL: http://
...This is enormous fun..."
Having someone point out that you have made an ass of yourself is enormous fun? Just how envious ARE you of the leather miniskirt? Clearly you are getting off on writing about it. For the record, I have not seen a lefty holding forth on the evils of fornication for some time. Coulter seems to bring out the worst in you. Of course, you are only having enormous fun, so I guess it is all right.

Written By: Robert Fulton
URL: http://
Hmmmm. What is with that margin?

Written By: Robert Fulton
URL: http://
Of course, you are only having enormous fun, so I guess it is all right.
’zactly.

Oh, and about Malkin and the ping-pong balls bit, and the rest of the "Asian whore" crap, I’ve already agreed that was nasty, either here or elsewhere. However, as an excuse to disallow comments at her blog, I’m not buying it.

Malkin runs around claiming virtually all liberals are, as her book proclaims, "unhinged." Coulter has them all down for treason. Ramesh Ponnuru places them in something constituting a "Party of Death." These are big hitters in the right-wing world, and if the left/Democrats/liberals are totally sick of it, and not all reacting like graduates of Miss Manners Charm School, I can understand that, even if I think they should try to stay out of the sewer themselves.

Written By: Mona
URL: http://
For what it’s worth, Mona, I heartily agree with the condemnation of the Idiotarian Rottweiller’s rhetoric. It’s unfortunately par for that course, which is why I haven’t been there in a very long time.

As for disallowing comments, I’d note that both Malkin and Reynolds operate on MovableType, and at their level — even leaving aside spam problems — comments would be an enormous burden on the server. That’s one reason we had to move away from MovableType, and we’re not even remotely in that traffic league.

Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.qando.net/
I have no idea what your point is.

Just why do you think that Rush went to the Dominican Republic with a bottle of Viagra (prescribed to someone else) that Rush claimed was a "boy’s only" trip?

Is it somehow not news? Did Digby make it news?

Should we libertarians not pretend that the Dominican Republic is notorious for sexual abuse of minors? Is it out libertarian view that minors can give consent?

In what sense did Didby do ANYTHING wrong?

Oh, as one libertarian to another, I think you sold your soul for a bl*wj*b along time ago.

Written By: jerry
URL: http://
Full disclosure: I am not really a libertarian, and I believe many libertarians are just apologetic conservatards living in a pool of their own sticky denial.

Written By: jerry
URL: http://
I have not heard any of the family-values proponents scolding the again unmarried Rush for his Viagra-assisted foray into the Dominican Republic. And does Ann ever get questions about how her own chosen lifestyle/habits of cigarettes and alcohol while condemning liberals of being godless? Does she regularly attend church? Does Rush? It’s like Jimmy Swaggart — do as I say and not as I do.

Written By: buma
URL: http://
I have not heard any of the family-values proponents scolding the again unmarried Rush for his V*agra-assisted foray into the Dominican Republic.
What "v*agra-assisted foray" into the Dominican Republic?

Couldn’t the same sort of unwarranted conclusion be reached about Digby? How’d he know the Dominican Republic was a sex tourism stop? Experience?

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