Comments
It would be nice to see Nifong face criminal prosecution over this. There’s got to be some kind of serious penalty for crap like this.

Written By: Firehand
URL: http://elmtreeforge.blogspot.com
Something still smells.

Written By: VRB
URL: http://hathor-sekhmet.blogspot.com
I’m not expert on prosecutorial immunity and crim pro, but this strikes me as a serious Brady violation. Hello section 1983 suit!

Written By: Sean
URL: http://www.myelectionanalysis.com
Wow, this is lame spam

Written By: shark
URL: http://
Snippets from Reason (by Jeff A Taylor), the voice of the Dem voting progressive "libertarians."

End of first and full second sentence, first paragraph:
...it became clear that Durham district attorney Mike Nifong has made fans of limited government confront an ugly truth. Despite the sensible urge not to federalize every issue, sometimes only another layer of government can fix bad government.
In a case of fairly clear prosecutorial misconduct, the first insinuation is for more government. I’ve got an idea, how about we the citizens, hold Nifong responsible. Of course, that would necessarily include the ’fourth estate’ bucking the costal elite establishment and recognizing that this might be a real civil rights transgression, instead of the hypothetical ones by the Bush Admin they keep on belaboring. Or how about all those Duke faculty who knew that white rich boys must be at fault and signed on to statements of PC condemnation of the WASP culture that has ruined this country. Or how about the citizens of Nifong’s district that recently re-elected him. Nope, Reason "libertarians" imply a need for more government.

Then there is this:
Nifong is a duly elected officer of court and as such, beyond the reach of state’s weak executive branch.
For a publication that has been wailing about Bush’s strong assertion of executive authority, a natural event in wartime within the ebb and flow of federal power sharing, it is surprising to see the insinuation that some of the problem results from a weak executive.

And I love this gratuitous rip on Bush:
That leaves the efforts of quirky Rep. Walter Jones (R-N.C.) to get the feds involved. Jones, who does not even represent Durham, has asked the Justice Department to start its own investigation into Nifong’s handling of the case. Jones, you’ll recall, was among the very first Republicans to question the wisdom of the war in Iraq, so he is not at the top of the Bush administration Christmas card list.
Now that is soo relevant to the Duke story.

In closing, Taylor concludes:
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales then, incredibly, becomes the key to protecting basic civil liberties in what should be a routine criminal prosecution by local officials.
NO! There were a multitude of ways to protect the basest civil liberties as guaranteed by the US Constitution. Unfortunately, in today’s political climate, identity politics takes precedence. Minorities can not be racist, women can not be sexist, environmentalists can not be fascists... fault always lays with whites and Christians.
And truth does not get much uglier than that. (quoted out of context to make a point)

While offering an otherwise good analysis of what has transpired re the Duke Rape case, Jeff misplaces blame for the tragic fiasco upon a straw man - which unsurprisingly has been the devil-de-half-decade. How so progressive "libertarian."


Written By: bains
URL: http://
It might be Nifong, or the Prosecutor who attacked Tom Delay on charges with no evidence, or that old bastard Jim Garrison who ruined peoples lives by linking them, with no evidence, to the Kennedy assassination.

I believe we have given prosecutors way too much power and not enough accountability.

Written By: kyle N
URL: http://impudent.blognation.us/blog

I believe we have given prosecutors way too much power and not enough accountability.
I believe this wholeheartedly. A lot of the reports have mentioned the fact that district attorneys have absolute immunity for even intentional malicious acts conducted as prosecutor. Ok, so we give the guy broad and deep power, then immunize him ALMOST ENTIRELY from any sort of check on that power or accountability. And no, frankly, I don’t see "well, you can vote him out of office" as any kind of check or accountability. I mean, it’s like saying "Bill, you work at Bank of America. If you ever abuse your power to, say, steal millions from account holders there, you’ll be fired! Eventually. Like, at the next four-year juncture. And after you’re fired, we’ll, um, we’ll...ok, nothing will happen to you."

Prosecutors need to be subject to the same standard of conduct as other attorneys. If you commit willful malicious acts, people can sue you for the damages those acts cause.

Written By: Jinnmabe
URL: http://
Nice roundup at Stop the ACLU.
Classic. Stop the ACLU has a roundup of stories about the abuse of the rights of the accused. Meanwhile, it is the very same ACLU that has done more than any other organization to aggressively litigate to protect and enforce those very same rights.

If wingnuts were allowed to determine the rights of the accused, the Duke boys would have already been convicted.



Written By: mkultra
URL: http://
If wingnuts were allowed to determine the rights of the accused, the Duke boys would have already been convicted.
Do you ever really read what gets posted here on QandO, or do you have some flip chart with the orders of the day which you follow as you jump from site to site and post from your instructions regardless of fact or reality?

This case smelled from the get go - it was lambasted strenously here, by most, except you, who staunchly maintained that Nifong was a genius, his plan was way over our heads, etc.

So, do us a favor, and shut...the hell....up, you frigging loon.



Written By: looker
URL: http://
"she cannot at this time testify with certainty" that it occurred,"

And nobody at any time realized that this was a problem witness? all those skilled and experienced investigators could not pick up even a hint that her memory was not as accurate as could be hoped? Maybe it is a bit different for women, but I am fairly certain that I would have a pretty vivid memory of being forcibly penetrated by a male sexual organ. Even a small one. Even if details were somewhat blurry, I am pretty sure I could give at least a firm yes or no answer.
With prosecutors like Nifong running loose, I am going to have to give more credence to the claims of innocence by convicted criminals. Maybe O.J. was innocent.

Nah, I don’t think so.


Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Do you ever really read what gets posted here on QandO, or do you have some flip chart with the orders of the day which you follow as you jump from site to site and post from your instructions regardless of fact or reality?
Actually I think he has a few big pie charts, one is for domestic policy, one is for foreign policy and the other is for miscellaneous. Each chart is filled with either quotes from Denis Kucinich, Noam Chomsky, or Mother Jones. Then he just throws darts at them.

Written By: kyle N
URL: http://impudent.blognation.us/blog
Classic.
Speaking of classic, classic avoidance of your former defense of Nifong.

Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Do you ever really read what gets posted here on QandO, or do you have some flip chart with the orders of the day which you follow as you jump from site to site and post from your instructions regardless of fact or reality?

This case smelled from the get go - it was lambasted strenously here, by most, except you, who staunchly maintained that Nifong was a genius, his plan was way over our heads, etc.
Read for meaning. Read for meaning.

The only comment I have ever made about the case is that Nifong didn’t do what a lot of experienced prosecutors don’t do: talk directly to the victim. As I mentioned before, doing so runs the risk of turning the prosecutor into a witness and this disqualifying him from the case.

That was my only comment about the case. You will not find a single thing I said otherwise about the case. Nothing.

As far as I am concerned, the case is otherwise meaningless. After all, the rights of the accused are violated every day. It’s funny that wingers get upset about only when those who happened to be the accused are three privileged whites.

Now, calling you a f*ck*ng tool would be an insult to tools, so I will refrain.

But the fact remains: When it comes to the procedural rights of criminal defendants, wingers side with the state, almost inevitably. And I have read nothing on this site that would dissuade me of that fact.
Actually I think he has a few big pie charts, one is for domestic policy, one is for foreign policy and the other is for miscellaneous. Each chart is filled with either quotes from Denis Kucinich, Noam Chomsky, or Mother Jones. Then he just throws darts at them.
Ha ha. Good one. But then again, you, like most of those who post here, probably thought invading Iraq with Bush at the helm was a good idea.
Speaking of classic, classic avoidance of your former defense of Nifong.
I never defended his case. And you know it. I defended merely one tactic in his case.

Tell me where I said Nifong had a good case. Quote me. I dare you.

Oh yes, you can’t. Why am I surprised.

You don’t know the first thing about being a lawyer. Being a wingnut, yes. But being a lawyer. No.



Written By: mkultra
URL: http://
Aren’t they TarHeels in NC?

Nifong needs a history lesson as to the originations of such comes from.



Written By: TC
URL: http://
When it comes to the procedural rights of criminal defendants, wingers side with the state, almost inevitably.
Wow! them ’wingers’ must be bad dudes and dudettes... care to offer a definition that works for any one of our three hosts MK?
And I have read nothing on this site that would dissuade me of that fact.
...or in other words, until you write what I want to hear...

Written By: bains
URL: http://
Ha ha. Good one. But then again, you, like most of those who post here, probably thought invading Iraq with Bush at the helm was a good idea.
well maybe I was wrong on that one, but you think that pulling out and letting the chips fall is a good idea and that is certainly a bigger mistake.

Written By: kyle N
URL: http://impudent.blognation.us/blog
In regards to this case, I have read more about the alleged victims lifestyle and the lack of DNA than any thing else. You all could not think that these young men were capable of anything and not possibly think that this woman may be traumatize by any sexual assault or rape (to fulfill North Carolina’s definition). Is that so, because it was not your wife, sister, or mother. Most of you can not empathize. This is what smells. You played the case as if you were the defense lawyers. Now, everyone is hoping the other charges will be dropped, because certainly this is a looney we have for an alleged victim. Let’s have the trial!

I thought this typical male reaction had diminished some time ago.

Written By: VRB
URL: http://hathor-sekhmet.blogspot.com
There is no case.

At this point, there literally is no case against these men.

This is affirmative action taken to its logical extreme. From Durham-in-Wonderland blog:
In a tumultuous forum at NCCU held on April 11, local activist Victoria Peterson claimed that Duke University Hospital “tampered with” the DNA samples. (Peterson, ironically, would later be welcomed as co-chair of Nifong’s citizens’ committee.) The forum’s message: Nifong would get the black vote he needed to win the primary only by securing indictments. In a chilling remark that captured sentiment in the auditorium, NCCU junior Chan Hall said that the Duke students should be prosecuted “whether it happened or not. It would be justice for things that happened in the past.”


Written By: Aldo
URL: http://
VRB the Chickenhawk meme, right...we’re not FEMALE or RELATED to the "victim" so we can’t have an opinion? UNLESS the opinion agrees with you?

So let’s have the trial and let’s destroy the victim on the stand...good idea. Let’s present the evidence that the police violated THEIR OWN PROCEDURES with the picture books and then point out that the victim FAILED TO IDENTIFY ANY OF THE ACCUSED UNTIL THE 2ND OR 3RD GO-ROUND. Let’s have her testify that one of the accused had a mustache at the time of the attack when he NEVER had a moustache. Let’s have one of the accused present his evidence, ATM records, dorm entry records, and testimony from a cab driver that he was not at the house AT THE TIME OF THE ALLEGED ASSAULT. Sure VRB let’s have this trial and once the accuser is destroyed and the three accused are ACQUITTED will you be happy? IS that what it takes to make you happy?

You’re one of the Duke 88, right? They MUST be guilty because bad things have happened to Womyn and People of Colour and so now White Men must pay! This case is a microcosm of Amerikkkka 2day, right? White, Hetero-, Upper-Class Men use and abuse a Womyn of Colour....You need to go back and study the Enlightenment, the idea is that there is an Objective Truth out there and it’s our job to find it, even if it makes us uncomfortable.

I here a lot about Emmett Till and the Scotsboro Boys, and how WRONG things were, so your answer is to simply railroad some white guys, THAT’LL MAKE IT BETTER? Heck by that logic we don’t need any Rape or Sexual Assault Divisions. All we need is a lottery of Upper-Class Hetero-males. Every year a state could randomly select one from it’s d-base, abuse, pillory, publicly mock and then execute THIS man as the "scape goat" for ALL sexual crimes committed against womyn. How about that we save ourselves a whole lot of money and apparently that’s all that’s really being called for here, because the EVIDENCE sure doesn’t seem to support the conclusion ANYTHNG happened, much less a rape, or sexual battery or kidnapping...

Lastly, I like Ann Coulter’s take, "Lie Down with Strippers Wake up With Pleas." (IIRC) At one level there aren’t ANY heroes or victims in this story. A bunch of drunken loutish jocks decide to hire two strippers to come dance for them. There are two women who are so debased that they agree to this offer. Both sides are morally reprehensible, but being a moral reprobate isn’t illegal. And that’s a good thing, after all if it were, we’d ALL be in jail, but I really don’t have to feel anything for any side in this debacle, except contempt...Contempt for men who deicde they’d like some easy wimenz to shake their money-makers for them, contempt for the women that decided this was the EASIEST way of making a living, rather than some "McJob", and Nifong for latching onto a sensational case that was going to vault him to the top of the heap and give him bag loads of Street Cred with Womyn and People of Colour. If at the end of the day all six end up much worse off than they were before this all started, I’m OK with that too. Somewhere al long the way I hope all six learn a GOOD lesson, about strippers, stripping, and the responsibilities of office.

Written By: Joe
URL: http://
You don’t know the first thing about being a lawyer.


I would take that as a compliment, McQ.

Written By: Aldo
URL: http://
More lawyerly obfuscations from mk.
Tell me where I said Nifong had a good case. Quote me. I dare you.
Technically correct, but you never criticized him either, and told us it was all "over our head" when we did. And, as you’ve admitted, you did defend his tactics, even though it was clear to all the rest of us at that point that he was persecuting innocents.

Could it be that you did that because you were happy he was going after "three privileged whites"?

Written By: Billy Hollis
URL: http://
The general sense in Raleigh seems to be that Nifong used the indictments to win re-election by playing to some nasty sentiments among the black community in Durham. The suspicion is that he refrained from interviewing the accuser during the election period precisely so that he could use an interview with her later to easily drop the case.

He would find her less than credible, announce that she really couldn’t testify clearly to the events, and "relunctantly" announce that he had to drop the case.

What appears not to have gone according to plan is the news about the DNA evidence. I don’t know if Nifong expected the silence of the DNA testing lab to hold, if his timing was off, or if he hadn’t properly considered that dimension of his little scheme to use the case to win re-election.

In any event, it looks like Nifong has gone from winning in Durham at the cost of raising suspicion amongst other North Carolinians to winning in Durham at the cost of possible investigation for serious official misconduct.

Written By: JMD
URL: http://
I never defended his case ...
I never said you did, did I?

Read for meaning. Read for meaning.
You don’t know the first thing about being a lawyer.
Neither, apparently, do you if your legal opinions are any indication.

Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
" As I mentioned before, doing so runs the risk of turning the prosecutor into a witness and this disqualifying him from the case."

I think that may be a risk he wishes he had taken, at this point.
******************************

"Most of you can not empathize."

Perhaps we can empathize with the alledged victim AND the alledged perpetrators, and go to the evidence to break the tie.


" Let’s have the trial!"

Why stop there? Why not do as the Queen of Hearts did; "Sentence first-verdict afterword!". That’s the fun part.

" I thought this typical male reaction had diminished some time ago."

Evidently the typical female reaction,"They did it!", has not diminished either.

Written By: timactual
URL: http://
timactual and joe have just prove my point.

Written By: VRB
URL: http://hathor-sekhmet.blogspot.com
timactual and joe have just prove my point.
What? That privledged white males are always guilty until pardoned by ’olde boy’ legal system?


Written By: bains
URL: http://
Does anybody ever read or comprehend my comments?

Since you brought up white privilege, I thought it kind of interesting that they didn’t hire white strippers. Are black women suppose to be more sexed or easy? What was up with that?

Written By: VRB
URL: http://hathor-sekhmet.blogspot.com
I thought it kind of interesting that they didn’t hire white strippers.
Obviously they are racists - might as well charge them with hate crimes as well. /snark

Written By: bains
URL: http://
Does anybody ever read or comprehend my comments?
I read’em...I’m pretty sure I comprehended them. You just didn’t like that fact that I didn’t AGREE with’em....
Since you brought up white privilege, I thought it kind of interesting that they didn’t hire white strippers. Are black women suppose to be more sexed or easy? What was up with that


They’re children of privilege, not stupid. I’m sure these two were the cheapest strippers...OOOPS, my Bad, "Private Dancers" they could find that met their minimum requirements. It’s called shopping for a bargain....I’m sure the drunken louts would have taken Hmong tribes women, or my sister IF they’d been willing to take their clothes off, "dance" and provide "other services" for the right price.

Editorial Note: My sister don’t come cheap, so no don’t ask.

Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Joe,
What you were doing was arguing using her lifestyle, which in most states has nothing to do if someone is raped. On this blog quite a few of you have made it your business to destroy her reputation. I am sure it has been on talk radio. No, I didn’t like it, because I thought that battle had been won. Yes it is a female perspective. I didn’t know this blog was male only. I gather you think my point of view has no value. Ann Coulter is an honorary male. I only brought race because some of you did. You assumed that race had to be my motive to say what I have said. That I would not have any relationship with rape. Most women have to make decisions, can I run to the store this time at night; if I am jogging in the park in daylight do I need a partner; even if I take a cab how much can I drink without getting drunk. The list is endless. You have to be ever vigilant, because most of the time women get raped, when someone takes advantage of an opportunity. As far as I concerned there is a difference between a dancer and a prostitute.

Written By: VRB
URL: http://hathor-sekhmet.blogspot.com
On this blog quite a few of you have made it your business to destroy her reputation.
Uh, just a minor point of order. If it turns out (as it looks likely at this point) that she made up some or all of her accusations, and thereby ruined the reputations of three young men, at least one of whom wasn’t even around the alleged events, then doesn’t she deserve to have her reputation destroyed? Or is her being a liar irrelevant to you because she’s a woman?

Written By: Billy Hollis
URL: http://
I believe Joe was speaking of how she would be treated at trial. I was only responding to that.

Written By: VRB
URL: http://hathor-sekhmet.blogspot.com
"Does anybody ever read or comprehend my comments?"

I think it is obvious to all but the totally brain dead that your comments are read. As for comprehension, there is a difference between comprehension and agreement. Consult your dictionary.






Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Speaking of empathizing, that, too, is not synonymous with agreement. It is possible to empathize with someone without agreeing with them. There are some decisions in life that are made more difficult because one empathizes with the party or parties involved. You are fortunate in that you have obviously not had to make any of those decisions. Or maybe you just make all your decisions based on your emotions.


Written By: timactual
URL: http://
I didn’t know this blog was male only.

It’s not.

I gather you think my point of view has no value.

Points of view derive their ’value’ not from who might hold them but from supporting logic and evidence. Of which you’ve produced damn-all so far for yours, just a lot of playing girl and waving around the gender card. As a woman and a feminist who’s been posting here for well over a year without encountering the slightest hint of sexism, it’s been embarassing to watch.

The fact you’ve failed to persuade any of us to your point of view has nothing to do with your gender or our lack of comprehension. Stop insulting our intelligence and start using your own.





Written By: Achillea
URL: http://
Achillea,
Where did "typical female" come from? Why did timactual make that comment? I don’t know the persons gender, but it sounded male to me. When I speak of my point of view having value, it is the same as your view having value. It has nothing to do with right or wrong. You all insult my intelligence and twist what I say. Its so tit for tat and I allow myself to get sucked in. Like now.

Let me just say,don’t watch it.

Written By: VRB
URL: http://hathor-sekhmet.blogspot.com
One last point, on an over-long thread. A lot of folks seem to want Nifong to be held liable for his "wrongs" and upset at his immunity. I understand, it’s a volatile case, emotionally, and Nifong seems to have wrongfully prosecuted three folks, PLUS he’s Da Man and this is a libertarian website so Da Man is always suspect. But I’d like to say Prosecutorial Immunity is a GOOD THING.

Sure HERE we’re grumpy BUT in the case of Gotti or Hamdan or a HOST of other defendants with a great legal team removing the immunity opens prosecutors to frivolous charges of malicious prosecution and intentional violations of law and procedure, the end result is that the Bad Guy/Gal is waging “Lawfare” against the State, and having it’s own chilling effect. I’d say the removal of immunity is a net Bad Thing.

I will support your efforts in it IF, you all agree that your clients/adversaries can hold each and every one of YOU liable, civilly and criminally, for EVERY violation of established corporate procedure you make on your job(s). Until YOU’RE willing to go on the block for your shortcuts that don’t change anything I don’t think that we ought to hold prosecutors, in general to that standard either.

It seems Nifong may be in trouble any way and might be disbarred. I think the best idea here IS to let the System do its job, not change the System.


Written By: Joe
URL: http://
They can, Joe. It’s called not performing according to contract. They may decide not to, if they can’t prove that non performance occurred. Or if proving it would cost more than it’s worth. Or if they would have been shown to have contributed in some part or in full. We don’t get immunity from any freaking thing. Just like if I violate the terms of my clearance by disclosing classified info to anyone, or stuff documents down my pants, I might end up in Leavenworth making little ’uns out of big ’uns.

In the case of Nifong, he violated his oath as a prosecutor for political gain. Bust him.

Written By: SDN
URL: http://
Note SDN the move is to remove immunity...opening the DA’s office to charges for ANY violation of procedure. So if at any time YOU don’t follow the manual and you’re willing to be liable, let me know. Until then we’ll just see how this plays out. The phrase is "Hard cases make bad law." The law shileds Nifong, but it also shields DA’s from the likes of Gotti and Hamdan....guys with lots of lawyers who then get a whole new front to operate on. You know like the OJ trial only now the DA can be fined....Sorry this is s solution in search of a problem.

Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Joe, did you even read my post? I’m already liable if I violate the manual AND get caught. Am I going to self incriminate? Uh, no.

Nifong’s already been caught in so much cr*p it’s up to his eyebrows and rising. And I don’t care if Gotti can present evidence of misconduct: he’s a US citizen and HAS THAT RIGHT! As for Hamdan, a) I’m not sure he is a citizen in the first place, and b) by swearing allegiance to a foreign govt and/or taking up arms against the government (by his own admission IIRC) he’s renounced it himself. Either way, he gets no Constitutional protection at all in my book. The mistake Bush made with him and other detainees is not making clear that we aren’t concerned with prosecuting them just in providing targeting info.

Written By: SDN
URL: http://
The only comment I have ever made about the case is that Nifong didn’t do what a lot of experienced prosecutors don’t do: talk directly to the victim. As I mentioned before, doing so runs the risk of turning the prosecutor into a witness and this disqualifying him from the case.
Here’s a prosecutor (whose wife is also a prosecutor) who says otherwise:

Patterico


According to Patterico, the first person interviewed by the prosecutor is the victim. But what would he know, he’s only a prosecutor?



Written By: steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
Joe,
You’re one of the Duke 88, right? They MUST be guilty because bad things have happened to Womyn and People of Colour and so now White Men must pay! This case is a microcosm of Amerikkkka 2day, right? White, Hetero-, Upper-Class Men use and abuse a Womyn of Colour....You need to go back and study the Enlightenment, the idea is that there is an Objective Truth out there and it’s our job to find it, even if it makes us uncomfortable.

I here a lot about Emmett Till and the Scotsboro Boys, and how WRONG things were, so your answer is to simply railroad some white guys, THAT’LL MAKE IT BETTER?

If we had tried to make right every wrong in the way you say, then we would have had the U.S. version of the Mau Mau after Emmett Till, and every white priviledged baby would have been murdered. Then these young men would have not been born. (In the South there was a black person in every middle class house or above; their "girl" or "boy".)
You seem to think to causually use his death in some sarcastic statement is OK. You say these things and think that I should not be offended. You have no understanding what impact Emmentt Till’s death had on any black person and if you are black you don’t know enough about you own culture and are letting the pop culture influence you. I was 10 at the time and it was frightening. Hearing from the olderfolks that they thought some things had gotten better until this happened. If you haven’t seen his body, you should take a look at what his mother had to identify.

Most Black people at that time were very patient and thought those things that the enlightenment brought to white people; it would bring to us. We strove in every possible way to become acceptable citizens and we even chose non-violence as a path.








Written By: VRB
URL: http://hathor-sekhmet.blogspot.com

 
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