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some soylent green anyone? |
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Written By:
capt joe
URL:
http://
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Yes, things would be much better off, for the homeless and other city residents, if we didn’t "squander" any resources on them at all, right? Because then they would disappear. Get real, McQ.
I agree that so-called "homeless advocates" often do little to actually advance the well-being of the homeless. But if you think we as a society have no obligation, or even perogative, to try to improve the conditions of our worst-off, then I guess you and I do not live in the same moral universe.
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Written By:
Mithras
URL:
http://mithrastheprophet.blogspot.com
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Looks like a nice place. I think next time I visit LA, I won’t need a hotel room, I’ll just stay there. |
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Written By:
Ogre
URL:
http://www.ogresview.blogspot.com
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I gotta spend $75 a month for a Gym membership. If me and my steady pretend we’re homeless, I can work out and she can get her hair done free? WHAT A SCAM!!! |
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Written By:
shark
URL:
http://
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But if you think we as a society have no obligation, or even perogative, to try to improve the conditions of our worst-off, then I guess you and I do not live in the same moral universe. That’s hardly the issue. The issue is that, if we’re going to help the homeless, subsidizing homelessness by making it easier to be homeless is probably not the best answer to the problem.
The vast majority of the homelss are either mentally incompetent or have serious substance abuse problems. Providing them with salons and safe schools probably does little to address those problems. Like much of liberalism, the primary benefits flow to the providers, who can feel like they’re "doing good". That is moral vanity, which, in fact, is a different moral universe than the one I inhabit. |
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Written By:
Dale Franks
URL:
http://www.qando.net
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Dale, you are definitely right. This is just social sugar. They have no answer and rather than trying for one, they do something that is essentially meaningless just to feel like they did something. Sort of like painting the deck chairs on the titantic a festive red. |
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Written By:
capt joe
URL:
http://
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If it can get out the urine smell, no price is too great. |
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Written By:
Christopher Cross
URL:
http://legalxxx.blogspot.com
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I think the law of unintended consequences applies here. Once the word gets out on the homeless grape vine the place will be inundated with homeless. Then they will need more money & more room and the cycle continues ad nasium. If on the other hand they are required to do some work or make some kind of contribution to society......quiet as a tomb. Flame away, but I’ve lived in several large urban areas and seen it time & time again. And contrary to popular belief not all are mentally challenged or substance abusers either about 20 to 25% are what we used to call BUMS. |
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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Like many problems, this is one that liberals and conservatives can beat each up over without ever being solved. I agree with skeptics that liberals tend to gloss over laws of unintended consequences—I think we can all agree that good critical thinking ought to be encouraged and applied more often. That said, carping from the right isn’t helping either. As Mr. Franks correctly noted, most homeless people have serious underlying problems that are not being addressed. Perhaps private charities and "faith-based" programs can point to some successes along the way, but get serious: The problem has grown, not shrunk, despite several public and private programs.
So, are you just happy to stand back and smugly berate "liberalism"? Or, seriously, can you propose some solutions or strategies to address homelessness? |
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Written By:
David in AK
URL:
http://
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Why do I have to come up with a solution? Isn’t that the job of the bureaucrats the government hirers by the thousands? Isn’t that the whole left-wing solution? Create a new bureau? And what do they do? They define stupidity; doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome (kind of sounds like the Democrats & schools huh). This is just more of the same. |
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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Greatly contributing to the number of homeless was the drive in the late 70’s to empty out and then shutter many mental institutions. And yes, that was a liberal program too. Today it is nearly impossible to obtain a civil commitment. In Alaska cops could do a 72 hour hold for evaluations but would only do it if the person was a danger to himself or others. The powerful groups that are committed to "deinstitutionalizing" those with mental problems create many roadblocks to cops and judges who could otherwise recommend alternative care. |
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Written By:
tom scott formerly in AK
URL:
http://
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Assuming you’re still checking comments on this story, I thought you might like the free-market version of wacky luxuries for the homeless: the giveaway of a $3000 pimped-out shopping cart complete with
* solar power
* GPS
* minifridge
* LCD TV
* and integrated can-crusher
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Written By:
Mithras
URL:
http://mithrastheprophet.blogspot.com
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It may seem like a lot, but to anyone who knows about "The Midnight Mission" and the circumstances in downtown LA’s Skid Row, it’s not enough. First, let me clear up some misconceptions:
A: The Midnight Mission is not, I repeat NOT a government funded facility. To the contrary, they do not generally accept Government funds due to the stringent requirements, and limited spectrum of use generally associated with such funds.
B: There is no SALON at the facility. There is a barber shop that is run by a participant in the Midnight Missions program.
Wait, that can’t be right can it?
True to it’s teachings, the Midnight Mission acquires over 80% of it’s employment from the residents who live there. In this manner, they can take individuals and teach them usable job skills for when they are ready to transition back out into society.
C: A gymnasium and workout center - for anyone who has seen the physical condition that a homeless individual who is addicted to many drugs is in when they come off the street, you wouldn’t question this once. Many pre-existing shelters have similar facilities in them already, such as the Union Rescue Mission, but because the donors of The Midnight Mission wish to build an in-door gymnasium, as opposed to an outdoor court, they should be chastised?
To anyone who feels that what this facility has is above and beyond the need, take a day to come down and really see what the conditions are like. Volunteer at a facility, and talk to the individuals who are living out on the streets. I personally believe that they deserve every opportunity for recovery, and to be treated with the same dignity and respect that you or I are. |
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Written By:
Justin Wisniewski
URL:
www.midnightmission.org
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I would assume that the 20% who don’t work either have a physical disability or mental health issue which prevents them from working. Of the 80% could you tell me what is the average stay for these people? Of those that leave, how many go on to gainful employment and break the cycle of homelessness? Would you admit that a certain segment of the homeless population has no intention of working and are not interested in changing their lifestyle. Like I said in my day we called them bums or hobos. I have had conversations with many of these types and what I’ve said about them is exactly what they told me. |
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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Another misunderstanding. 80% of The Midnight Mission’s workforce is constructed of 100% of the individuals living there. It’s almost like a communist society. Everyone works to earn their keep.
Each individual has a bank account set up for them and are paid a weekly stipend. Of those funds, 85% are required to be saved to take care life issues once they are ready to transition out of the Mission. As individuals progress through the program, they earn more privaleges such as access to the new Gymnasium, the ability to pay for cable TV, etc.
After 6 months of sobriety, individuals can generally start looking for outside employment, and while still required to participate in the mandatory savings program, are able to start rebuilding their lives and start taking care of life issues that can accumulate on the streets.
True, it cannot be denied that many individuals prefer their "street life" to actual society, but let me give a very realistic interpretation of your average "BUM".
The average homeless individual is in their mid thirties, and has been using drugs for approximately 19 years. (You can research these facts from "The Institute For the Study of Homelessness and Poverty")
Over two thirds of homeless individuals work periodically, but most do not pay taxes on these funds so accumulate thousands of dollars that they will owe to the Government. Let’s estimate low, and say the person only owes about $5,000 in back owed taxes.
Next let’s take into account any legal issues the person may have developed. Even something as small as a jay walking ticket will escalate to a warrant for ones arrest when left unpaid. Many homeless individuals usually owe around 2-3 thousand in fines and warrants to the government for issues that happened while living on the street.
Next let’s go out on the not so wild assumption that the person might actually owe debt to a creditor, or possibly some old child support payments. These could also be upwards of a few thousand dollars.
Okay, now let’s see how this plays out. An individual goes through a program, finds recovery and a job that provides mediocre pay. That pay is just enough for the individual to afford some basic housing. After a few weeks of work, they get a paycheck only to discover that most of it has been garnished to pay for all of those back owed taxes, and possible child support payments.
Assuming the individual doesn’t relapse then and there due to inability to pay, they usually end up having an officer show up at their door and take them to prison due to all of the warrants they have. Since this can happen within a few weeks of getting a job, it can be difficult to explain to your new employer exactly why you had to miss work.
Usually, this ends up causing the individual to lose their job, and in most cases, the individual goes right back to their old lifestyle. Unfortunately, this is an all to real situation, and it happens every day. If you were living on the streets and had to deal with this, you might find it easier to just slowly die on the streets in peace. Unfortunately, many of the individuals out there have had this situation happen to them. Also, many of them look for help, but have been denied what they need so many times that they’re just sick and tired of asking.
The Midnight Mission offers services to assist the individuals with these cases. There are professional lawyers who come in and through a system known as the "Homeless Court", many of them can serve time at the Mission instead of having to go to a prison (Which usually ends up perpetuating the situation) and work out other legal issues. There are profesional Tax preparers who volunteer their time each year to assist individuals with making arrangements with the government to pay off their taxes. In short, the Midnight Mission helps people get back to self sufficiency.
The average individual has a stay between 1 and 2 years. But it can vary depending on the persons circumstances. Some people need upwards of 4 or 5 years to completely get their lives back on track. No two individuals are the same, and each person has a personal case manager to help them through their program and ensure they are not just using the Mission as a halfway house.
I honestly suggest taking the time to check out The Midnight Mission’s website, and if possible, going down there to volunteer and see the facility, and the streets first hand. |
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Written By:
Justin Wisniewski
URL:
www.midnightmission.org
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I don’t see any real statistics? Do you not keep them? If not how can you tell what effect your program is having? What percentage of all people who have gone through your program go on to full employment?
And will you admit that a certain segment of the homeless population has no intention of working and are not interested in changing their lifestyle.
You talk about perpetuating the situation without those stats how do you know that you aren’t doing that very thing? |
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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Sorry you did answer about the Bums. I’m sorry I misread that passage.
I’m sorry I can’t have sympathy for any adult having to pay consequences for the stupid choices they make. i.e. not paying jaywalking ticket almost every fine can be negotiated to community service all you have to do is ask. As a recovered addict I can also tell you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. Forcing any body (you can’t be a part of the program unless you take rehab) is a waste of time and recourses.
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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I can agree wholeheartedly with you about forcing a person through recovery. It’s just not possible! All you can do is build as much trust with an individual as possible in hopes that they will step through the doors that have opened up.
To answer your questions:
Is there a percentage of the population that does not want to change their lifestyle? YES
But The Midnight Mission is designed for those who have already decided they WANT to change.
How many people go on to full employment?
It’s tough to assign a figure to this because it’s impossible to track. Many facilities keep very precise figures showing how many people complete their program, but if that person relapses and comes back a week later they’re a new statistic. Unfortunately, we can’t follow a person for the rest of their life to see what they have become of themselves. Taken by the standard figures, the national recovery rate for the a facility such as the Midnight Mission is around 7-8%. The Midnight Mission is running at approximately 18%.
If you are a recovering addict, you understand that recovery is a life long situation, and something that needs consistant treatment. You’d also understand that relapse is a part of life long recovery. Many individuals have to try many programs before they find one that work for them. Some individuals come through the Midnight’s program a couple times before they find recovery. And as they come through a second, or sometimes a third time, the odds of them making it on to full recovery jump from 18% to 25%, and then around 33%.
Sympathy for an individual who has made bad choices can be difficult, but anyone who honestly wants to make a change in their life should not be denied. All we can do is open the doors as wide as possible, and let the willing weed themselves out. The Midnight Mission has defninitely taken a step above the rest in accomplishing this. |
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Written By:
Justin Wisniewski
URL:
www.midnightmission.org
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Justin I applaud your honesty, and truly believe you are more than sincere in your efforts. By any standard 7-8% is failure in an economic sense. In human terms of course 1 victory is enough. But you must function with in a budget correct?
In my early 20s I jumped a freight train with a friend of mine from CA to AR met a lot of "bums". To avoid problems we acted in awe of them and presented ourselves as wannabe hobos. They took us under their wings and proceeded to show us the ropes.
They taught us how to beg. How to deflect offers of work or food to money. One guy would mix cigarette ashes with his coffee and he would look deathly ill (gray and sweaty) his take would double. They had a whole list of strategies for organizations like yours.
All I’m saying is organizations like yours need to think outside the box and develop criterion that will identify the truly needy, and shine on the scam artists. With a first time rate of 7-8% vast amounts of resources are being
wasted. |
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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Justin Subsitute 18% for 7-8% |
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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It’s understandable that one might think that resources were being wasted when 72% of the individuals who go through the program leave without finishing the program, yet as you said it’s difficult to put a cost on human life.
The Midnight Mission runs almost soley on private donation. Many of these donors come down to the mission on a regular basis to see it’s work in action. True, it’s not perfect, but not even the most lucritive financial organization is without flaw.
The hardest thing to realize when dealing with individuals is that no two people are alike. I know you have questions about avoiding scam artists, so let me help alleviate some of those.
All of the Case Managers that are at The Midnight Mission are former addicts themselves. Not only that, but there are many measures in place to ensure that individuals who are here, stay clean. I don’t care how sneaky you are, it’s nearly impossible to fool our drug tests.
Another thing to remember is that the $17 Million was to build a brand new facility in Downtown Los Angeles. With the cost of property, and building supplies in LA, the facility isn’t quite as plush as one would think. The program residents are still required to sleep in a dorm setting, many of them sharing bunk beds. It’s only right that we try and not only rehabilitate and individual, but reintegrate them into society so that they feel like they’re a person again.
I don’t know how those hobos you met seemed to you, but I would assume they seemed detracted from society - they’re own culture if you will. The point is to break that out of a person’s mentality, and help them easily assimilate back in.
That is what The Midnight Mission is about - "Building a bridge to self-sufficiency for homeless people through counseling, education, training, and job placement" |
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Written By:
Justin Wisniewski
URL:
www.midnightmission.org
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Hanging with hobos is not the only reason for my point of view.
When I put myself through college in the early 90’s I lived in a low income neighborhood for 3 and a half years. What I observed there opened my eyes. Fraud of all types was the rule not the exception. (before I’m called a racist this behavior cut across all racial lines black, white, hispanic, and asian) The underground economy was food stamps you could buy drugs with food stamps. You could go the mom & pop grocery store and get half the face value of food stamps in cash no questions asked. Mothers would gather several of the neighborhood kids (for a few bucks each) and go down to Welfare or W.I.C. claim them as their children so they could get more food stamps. They would hold informal “seminars” on how to defraud Medicare, and insurance fraud. One group in my building would stage accidents and in league with crooked Drs would defraud auto insurance companies. Guys like you need to wake up to the fact that probably half of your clientele are running a scam.
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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I would be a fool to not agree with you when you say the the streets are full of scams. Individuals will get as much as they can with as little work - it’s human nature. What I think I’m seeing, however, is that you aren’t fully realizing what goes on at many of the treatment center’s, especially The Midnight Mission.
First, The Midnight Mission does not seek individuals out, nor can it provide help at it’s facility for every individual who comes through the doors. Each individual who comes looking for help is given it in one form or another. Let me explain.
Meal services are offered three times a day to anyone who shows up to the facility. In addition, clothing and emergency beds are offered to those who are in need. It is not the Midnight Mission way to turn anyone down who is in need of these basic necesities, and I don’t think anyone could aregue with that.
If a person walks through The Midnight Mission’s doors and says they would like to get involved in the program offered there, they are taken through a very stringent interviewing process. If the individual attributes their chronic homeless situation to a substance abuse problem, they may be perfectly suited to the Mission’s program.
Though, not everyone needs what The Midnight Mission has to offer. If, for example, they are a victim of domestic violence, has a severe handicap or illness, or just lost a job, they might be better suited for other programs. In these instances, the individual goes through The Midnight Mission’s refferal department and has a facility found for them, that suits their personal needs. The Mission calls the facility to make sure they have an availability, and will even take individuals to that facility to make sure they get the help they need.
Do not assume that we are not aware individuals will say or do anything to get the help they want. Unfortunately we are all too aware of these situations. However, the best thing we can do is open our doors as wide as possible, and let as many people walk through them. Those who are intent on bettering themselves will stay and utilize the program to it’s fullest, taking themselves to better and brighter places. Those who don’t inevitably flounder and end up back in the food lines. But it doesn’t mean we won’t still offer them all we can.
The key is compassion, and that is a key that The Midnight Mission holds. |
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Written By:
Justin Wisniewski
URL:
www.midnightmission.org
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That’s my point Justin with an 18% number you are not just servicing those who are intent on bettering themselves. In an earlier posting you said some people stay in the program 5 yrs. Any one stays that long is scamming you and isn’t intent on bettering themselves. Man there isn’t a drug test invented that can’t be beaten. The Olympic Committee thought they had a foolproof way of testing for steroids; they would have an observer watch the athlete give a sample. It was foolproof until they found out The Polish weight lifters were injecting clean urine into their bladders before each test. It should be noted it didn’t matter if it was a random either. The procedure could be carried out in a few minutes in any semiprivate place. That’s just an example. Check the internet a whole industry out there for beating drug tests. Like computer viruses the criminal is always 1 or 2 steps ahead. You do help the approx 10% of those counted as homeless, those who really want break the cycle (And would have probably done it with out you), but to tell you the truth with the other 80% you’re just an enabler and wasting resources. |
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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Don’t get me wrong I applaud you and your goals but to the scam artists compassion is just a big target. |
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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For any substance abuser who has recovered from an addiction there comes a point they usually call "the bottom". That point where life is so miserable that they feel they can’t go on. It is here they make the commitment to sobriety. By compassionately allowing people to cycle through your program, you are catching them before they hit bottom, and thus enabling the abuser.
Sometimes the most truly compassionate thing to do is to turn your back on someone, some call it tough love.
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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Once again, I can understand the points you are making, yet they are flawed on a few points.
1: Although doing something along the lines of injecting yourself with clean urine could beat a test, you have to realize that the individuals who are utilizing this facility would not have the means or desire to go to such extreme measures. Clean urine isn’t exactly common on the streets, and with the pain and risk of infection, there isn’t a huge benefit to it. They arne’t competing for gold medals, they’re just trying to get some help.
2: 18% is the number of people who make it through our program their first time through, not the number of individuals truly seeking help. It would be simple for us to let every person stay at The Midnight Mission with no rules, or direction. It’s because of the strict rules and standards that are layed out that an individual has difficulty completing the program.
3: The reference to someone staying five years isn’t an every day occurance. As previously stated, no two cases are the same. Everyone has their own history and story. Some times, it may take an individual several years to catch up on back owed debt. They might relapse and have to start over in the program from step one and have to earn their privalages once again. The point is The Midnight Mission understands that someone might take a bit longer than another, and we’re not here to just boot someone out after a specific period of time. They make sure that when a person walks out of the doors to that facility, they truly get a fresh start, and a new lease on life without their past pulling them down.
4: "The Bottom" is different for every individual. No one I’ve ever met has had the career goal of being homeless. It’s not something one strives for. As I’ve stated before, the best thing to do is open our doors as wide as we can. Sometimes, a person may leave the Mission after a couple months. Usually, however, they end up hitting "The Bottom" and coming back to our facility and generally making it through the program at that time.
It would be a wonderful situation if we could ensure that 100% of individuals would make it through on their first try. But that is not only unlikely, it is unreasonable. As I’ve stated, relapse is an inherent part of recovery so not everyone will make it their first time. With over 82,000 homeless in LA County, and 6,000 - 8,000 of that existing solely on the streets of LA City, all we can do is try and help as many individuals as possible. |
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Written By:
Justin Wisniewski
URL:
www.midnightmission.org
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No one I’ve ever met has had the career goal of being homeless. It’s not something one strives for.
Like I said we used to call them hobos I’ve met lots of them and you have defined their existence.
Most are fiercely proud of it too.
The fact that you can’t comprehend their existence shows a flaw those of your ilk seem to share. A blind spot in your comprehension of human nature. And that is why the law of unintended consequences is constantly biting the most compassionate among us in the ass. And that’s why your organization may be enabling more than they are helping.
I’ve truly enjoyed talking with you.
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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I can say that I’ve enjoyed talking with you as well, but I have to disagree with your last statement.
The problem you are having is you are sticking a monolithic view on a very diverse problem. Homeless situations vary from person to person - be it substance abuse related, domestic violence, emancipated youth from the foster care system, physical or mental disabilities, unemployment...the list goes on and on.
In addition, the homeless of Los Angeles very vehemently from the homeless of other areas. If you were in the pacific north west, many homeless there know how to fish and hunt, and can actually survive in off the land. If you were to take the homeless of Los Angeles and stick them in that situation, they would not be capable of surviving in the same manner.
In order to understand the homeless condition, one needs to experience it from many angles. Yes, you may have met and experienced life with so called, "hobos", but that is only one angle, and one type of experience. Also, what would happen if you were to give those individuals a couple million dollars? Would they continue down the path they have been living? It’s very doubtful.
No one chose as a youth to be homeless, and living off the streets. Though they may feel "Proud" of their condition now, it is not to say that they would not give up their lifestyle if they won the lottery.
I could give $10 million to 1000 different homeless individuals out on the streets of Skid Row, in Los Angeles, and I could almost guarantee that within a three to five year period, well over 90% of the individuals would have used up all the money, or died from overdosing.
The fact of the matter remains that on the streets of Los Angeles, substance abuse is a SERIOUS problem. As you had stated earlier, you cannot force a person through recovery, it has to be chosen. Unfortunately, we cannot spend our entire lives trying to discern who truthfully wants it, and who is just trying to get a warm bed. All we can do is offer what we can to everyone. Believe it or not, sometimes even those "Scam Artists" begin to realize it’s time for a change. |
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Written By:
Justin Wisniewski
URL:
www.midnightmission.org
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Just remember in human terms you are a success.
We disagree in the efficacy of your program.
I for one would not give to your cause. I would see it as a waste of my resources.
Like I said in my first post the law of unintended consequences applies.
Like the Food Stamp program, founded on good intentions, that has turned into one of the most corrupt, criminal enterprises in history.
(I’m not saying you are corrupt or criminal just pointing out law of unintended consequences)
Good intentions aren’t enough.
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Written By:
McQ2
URL:
http://nukethebabywhales.gov
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You restated "Law of Uninteded Consequences" yet you say that if they had to work, they would not come in.
In several of my posts, I have stated that individuals who come into The Midnight Mission ARE required to work. Everyone who is staying and getting more than just food or clothing puts in 20 - 40 hours of labor a week, on top of attending school for 16 hours a week, and attending a minimum of 10 hours worth of meetings.
The individuals staying in The Midnight Mission’s program work harder, and longer hours than almost anyone I know, and they do it for less money.
I once again have to state that you need to research a topic more thouroughly before passing judgement on it. If you would like, I can schedule a personal tour of the facility to show you just how impactful and unwasteful it is. |
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Written By:
Justin Wisniewski
URL:
www.midnightmission.org
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