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I ask because I don’t know but, were you in the military during wartime, McQ? I can’t recall if you were active during Vietnam or not. Your son was active during GWI, correct? I’m curious as to whether or not there is a different mentality when it comes to training new recruits during wartime. To be quite clear, I am not trying to excuse or condone the actions cited above. However, I can understand/comprehend where certain breakdowns in company discipline might be "tolerated" more during wartime than peacetime, especially those that create a certain sense of urgency in the recruits. Does that make any sense or am I way off base? |
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Written By:
MichaelW
URL:
http://
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I can tell you right now there was a hell of a lot worse stuff going on at Ft Knox in May of 2001 when I went through OSUT, in peacetime.
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Written By:
David
URL:
http://
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Capt. William C. Fulton, 35, the company’s commander, was convicted last week of false swearing and dereliction of duty for not halting the abuse. He was sentenced to six months’ confinement.
Earlier this year, Price was convicted of maltreatment and demoted, as was Staff Sgt. Ricky L. Stauffer. Staff Sgt. Michael G. Rhoades was found guilty of maltreatment and impeding an investigation, and received a bad-conduct discharge. Staff Sgt. Bryan G. Duncan is awaiting a court-martial.
From the Wapo/AP article. May we not cynically wonder why this is being published now? Might it be part of Dem/MSM political campaign?
Me thinks...damn straight!
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Written By:
RiverRat
URL:
http://
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I ask because I don’t know but, were you in the military during wartime, McQ? I can’t recall if you were active during Vietnam or not. Your son was active during GWI, correct?
Correct.
I’m curious as to whether or not there is a different mentality when it comes to training new recruits during wartime.
Mentality, perhaps. But physical abuse? No.
Look, physical abuse doesn’t teach anyone about war. Its simply abuse.
When I was in I graduated one of the toughest schools the army has during wartime. The US Army Ranger schoool. I was never once touched in an abusive manner. Same with airborne school. And, as I said, I was an infantry AIT company commander, and we never did it then. We turned out some damn fine infantrymen.
There’s no reason for this in peace or war. |
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Written By:
McQ
URL:
http://www.qando.net/
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I can tell you right now there was a hell of a lot worse stuff going on at Ft Knox in May of 2001 when I went through OSUT, in peacetime.
Well I hate to hear that David, because that’s not the way it should be done. |
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Written By:
McQ
URL:
http://www.qando.net/
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From the Wapo/AP article. May we not cynically wonder why this is being published now? Might it be part of Dem/MSM political campaign?
Or because, as of last week, the case if finally wrapped up?
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Written By:
McQ
URL:
http://www.qando.net/
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Or because, as of last week, the case if finally wrapped up?
Well, if that were true we’d still be waiting for Lyndi England to be convicted to hear about Abu Ghraib wouldn’t we? |
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Written By:
RiverRat
URL:
http://
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If you had not told us that it was an MP describing what Drill Instructors had done to recruits, I would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime—Pol Pot or others—that had no concern for human beings. |
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Written By:
SaveFarris
URL:
http://
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Went through Infantry OSUT at Ft. Beginning in 1993. Our drill sergeants were a bit more slick: "I didn’t hit you! That full canteen hit you!" Still, one of them went way over the line and beat the piss out of a kid and he (the drill sergeant) ended up getting prosecuted, so all’s well that ends well, I guess.
By the way, McQ, did you command B 2/58 back then? ’Cause my CO dropped me for pushups after I saluted him with a pen in my hand. Lots of them. It was the first time I had seen an officer and I was all flustered.
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Written By:
Jeff
URL:
http://
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When I went through Marine Corps boot camp in 1985, there were strict rules against drill instructors getting physical with recruits ... so it never happened.
We did, however, have a few recruits who had to go to sickbay for a fracture check after falling down stairs when nobody was looking. Odd, given that my platoon’s squad bay was on the first floor of the barracks.
It seems to me that if only physically imposed discipline will teach a recruit something that he absolutely must take to heart—lest he later endanger himself and his comrades because he didn’t do so—then it is a disservice to that recruit, to his comrades and to the organization to not provide that discipline. There’s a reason why E-4s—who constituted the bulk of drill instructors before the "rank inflation" of the Vietnam era—are called "corporals."
Tom Knapp |
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Written By:
Thomas L. Knapp
URL:
http://knappster.blogspot.com
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I never attended Ranger School, but I did 13 weeks of OSUT at the Benning School for Boys back in 1989 and while the Drills were tough, I don’t ever recall them touching a recruit. This kind of thing is utterly unnecessary and counterproductive, even more so at a time when recruiting and retention are so vitally important to the Army’s mission. I hate to say it because I served with one of the Drills, but these guys need to have the book thrown at them. |
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Written By:
Andrew
URL:
http://andrewolmsted.com
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When I went through Marine Corps boot camp in 1985, there were strict rules against drill instructors getting physical with recruits ... so it never happened. That’s interesting - the first thing I thought when reading the entry was "hey, this stuff doesn’t belong in the Army, that’s what the Marines are for!". Seriously, given the severe penalties for a recruit striking a DI, it’s completely inappropriate for a DI to strike a recruit (or to incite a recruit to strike him, but that’s a different discussion).
I’m glad the Army is following up on this appropriately. |
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Written By:
Skorj
URL:
http://
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Back in ’49, in leadership school, we were taught to the tune of the Doolittle commission, a government commission formed at the demand of veteran enlisted men writing their congressmen about chicken. I suspect too many DIs are overly influenced by the movies. It is quite possible to accomplish the building of a soldier without making an ass of oneself.
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Written By:
Walter E. Wallis
URL:
http://
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Well, if that were true we’d still be waiting for Lyndi England to be convicted to hear about Abu Ghraib wouldn’t we?
No.
Abu Ghraib was going to break as soon as CBS could put it together, which, on reflection, would seem to argue against your point. |
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Written By:
McQ
URL:
http://www.qando.net/
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Jeff:
When I was there it was still the 1st AIT Bde (hadn’t gone OSUT or given the units a regemental lineage). I had D Co, 5th Bn. |
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Written By:
McQ
URL:
http://www.qando.net/
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It seems to me that if only physically imposed discipline will teach a recruit something that he absolutely must take to heart—lest he later endanger himself and his comrades because he didn’t do so—then it is a disservice to that recruit, to his comrades and to the organization to not provide that discipline.
Really?
By what right?
What I did was remove from the service (by discharge for the good of the service) those who seemed unable to learn. I certainly didn’t condone abusing them ’for their own good’ or ’for the good of others’. |
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Written By:
McQ
URL:
http://www.qando.net/
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Geez, McQ... you’re old.
What was it really like being a Rough Rider under Teddy Roosevelt? ;) |
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Written By:
Jeff
URL:
http://
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Geez, McQ... you’re old.
Yup. And meaner than a snake.
What was it really like being a Rough Rider under Teddy Roosevelt? ;)
You mean back when men were men and Jeff was a sissy’s name? ;) |
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Written By:
McQ
URL:
http://www.qando.net/
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I went through MOSUT @ Ft Sill, OK in ’83. The closest to abuse I recall was the 2nd platoon Drill SGT’s reply to a group of soldier’s in unison voice asking "How are you today, Drill SGT?" "It’s an awfull day, we’re not at war and no privates are die-ing!" was his daily reply. Then the Granada rescue happened. That was one happy Drill SGT. After graduation I worked with a soldier who was in BCT in ’75, he told me that in their bunks on knees and elbows holding their M-16’s pararell to the floor they were ordered to close the bolt on their thumb.
Glad I went through when I did.
Will the POI change if and when draftees are in basic combat training? |
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Written By:
Ret_SGT
URL:
http://
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"Ranger schoool. I was never once touched in an abusive manner. Same with airborne school."
Question: Were you an "O" or and "E" grade at the time?
Not to disparage your comment, but as one 1st Sergeant I had said, "There’s
enlisted men, and then there’s officers." It may have been my imagination,
but I think I detected the slightest emphasis on "men".
As someone else noted, the cadre had legalistic ways around the "no touch"
rules when they felt they needed it, but it was pretty rare. The usual way
of handling a recalcitrant recruit was to impose unit punishment for that
individual’s failings. We had one clown from the backwoods who had a real
personal hygiene issue. He finally straightened up after the 1 AM forcible
shower using floor scrub brushes.
Personal details, Knox Aug-Oct ’64, "US" serial number.
The Marines do things differently. For one, they have all their recruits
call the DI’s "SIR!". One line that sticks with me after all these years was
the retort from cadre when that mistake was made - "Don’t call me sir, I
work for a living."
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Written By:
bud
URL:
http://
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I am Drill Sergeant Stauffer. If you have questions about the truth, just ask me.
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Written By:
rick stauffer
URL:
http://
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