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USS Bataan: the dog that didn’t bark?
Posted by: Jon Henke on Monday, September 05, 2005

Kevin Drum writes...
Asked why Northcom hadn't reponded to Hurricane Katrina more quickly, [Lt. Commander Sean Kelly, a Pentagon spokesman for Northern Command] accidentally told the truth:
Northcom started planning before the storm even hit....We had the USS Bataan sailing almost behind the hurricane so once the hurricane made landfall, its search and rescue helicopters could be available almost immediately So, we had things ready.

The only caveat is: we have to wait until the president authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can't just act in this fashion; we have to wait for the president to give us permission.
So why didn't the president issue the orders?
Why didn't Bush issue the orders? Well, here's the thing: he did.

Katrina hit the coast on August 29th. On August 30th, the "Pentagon announced it will send five ships, though four are several days away". The other was the USS Bataan, which was following behind the storm. On the morning of August 31, the USS Bataan was flying missions into Louisiana, as "four MH-53 Sea Stallion and two HH-60 Seahawk helicopters from USS Bataan were flying medical-evacuation and search-and-rescue missions in Louisiana, and Bataan's hospital was preparing for possible use for medical support".

More details about the extensive deployments can be found here and here.

Kevin Drum asks why the President didn't "issue the orders"; Carpetbagger says "the White House never made the call". What do they know that the USS Bataan—busy doing evacuation and search-and-rescue missions 6 days ago—didn't?

UPDATE: Lt. Commander Sean Kelly—the person cited by Carpetbagger and Kevin Drum—wrote to Drum with a clarification, which Kevin has posted:
The biggest hurdles to responding to the storm were the storm itself — couldn't begin really helping until it passed — and damage assessment — figuring out which roads were passable, where communications and power were out, etc. Military helos began damage assessment and SAR on Tuesday. Thus we had permission to operate as soon as it was possible. We even brought in night SAR helos to continue the mission on Tuesday night.

The President and Secretary of Defense did authorize us to act right away and are not to blame on this end. Yes, we have to wait for authorization, but it was given in a timely manner.
So, operations began on Tuesday, rather than the Wednesday morning I originally cited. More details at the USS Bataan's website.
To date, the two squadrons have transported 1,613 displaced people and delivered more than 100,000 pounds of cargo. Bataan also provided 8,000 gallons of fresh drinking water to the ravished Gulfport , Mississippi area. Sailors filled eight 500-gallon water bladders with the ship's potable water and HM 15's MH-53 helicopters transported them from the flight deck of Bataan to land.
Protein Wisdom comments, too...
 
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Comments
But in the link you provided—and quoted from—on defenselink.mil is date 8/31. That’s 2 days after the storm hit. You even say that it was August 31st.

The full quote is:

As of this morning, four MH-53 Sea Stallion and two HH-60 Seahawk helicopters from USS Bataan were flying medical-evacuation and search-and-rescue missions in Louisiana, and Bataan’s hospital was preparing for possible use for medical support.

It seems there was a 2-day delay in getting the Bataan involved in S&R.
 
Written By: M@
URL: http://
There is a blog called "Squiggles" that has posted a timeline of preparations and response for Katrina based on excerpts from the Times-Picaune (TP). It clearly shows that the Feds were ahead of the game but were hampered by foot dragging by the Mayor and the Governor. Because of the federal nature of the Constitution and some subsequently enacted laws, the feds are prohibited from undertaking actions within a state without the express invitation of the state authorities. As the data from the TP clearly shows, the feds were set up and ready to go ahead of the planning timeline that FEMA has long established for any federal support. It is clearly the responsibility of state and local authorities to maintain order and initiate evacuations, etc. in the event of a disaster. It is clear that they did not act in a timely manner and were bureaucratically unprepared to execute their own approved response plans.

If you cant find Squiggles, check with Eternity Road for a link.
 
Written By: John F
URL: http://
Well yeah ... it’s kinda nice to get in range before you launch so you can be sure your helicopters don’t end up in the sea. And helicopters don’t fly well in hurricanes as you might imagine so you probably need to let it pass on through first especially when you’re coming in behind it.

That, however, doesn’t mean the ship wasn’t notified, sailing and sent in behind the hurricane two days before it launched aircraft.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
The Chicago Tribune story, bylined Sept. 4, is fully consistent with the earlier Aug 31st. CNN/defense.mil statement:

"The Bataan rode out the storm and then followed it toward shore, awaiting relief orders. Helicopter pilots flying from its deck were some of the first to begin plucking stranded New Orleans residents."

The point being that *since then* the ship’s capabilities have not been used fully at all:

"But now the Bataan’s hospital facilities, including six operating rooms and beds for 600 patients, are empty. A good share of its 1,200 sailors could also go ashore to help with the relief effort, but they haven’t been asked. The Bataan has been in the stricken region the longest of any military unit, but federal authorities have yet to fully utilize the ship."

Sure looks like bungling to me.
 
Written By: gwailo
URL: http://taxprofessor.blogspot.com/
At some point, when you are arguing with geniuses who simply can not figure out why you do not ’pre-position’ naval vessels in the path of hurricanes for later disaster relief, it is time to stop arguing and start ignoring them.

Lt. Kelly had a briefing that was aired this morning on CNN that explains why the deployments were made when they were made, and that explains, even for the slow, that they chose not to place National Guard troops in theatre too close to the storm for what are obvious reasons for people who walk upright.

And no Gwailo- that is not what they are now arguing. They are arguing that Bush didn’t give the orders.
 
Written By: John Cole
URL: http://www.balloon-juice.com
Making excuses for the most dangerously incompetent president in the better part of a century must be mighty hard work.

Maybe you need a rest.
 
Written By: D Moriarty
URL: http://
D Moriarty -

Thanks for your contribution - your facts are just so compelling!
 
Written By: Monica
URL: http://
I actually cited the relief efforts of the U.S.S. Bataan a couple of days ago. According to the ship’s website, it was conducting rescue operations on Tuesday, Aug. 30, the day after Katrina made landfall.
 
Written By: MichaelW
URL: http://
Making excuses for the most dangerously incompetent president in the better part of a century must be mighty hard work.

And what excuses are those?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
I have a family member aboard the Bataan and they are FURIOUS. We were receiving emails BEFORE Katrina struck, indicating they would be riding the storm out, then heading in for service wherever they were needed.

Yes, they were given the Go Ahead, as in GO AHEAD AND WAIT!!!!! Bataan WAS ordered to prepare - which they did with breakneck speed - and once ready were told to wait, bobbing offshore (less than TEN miles offshore) like a toy the "Big Kids" weren’t ready to play with just yet.

Our family member was to have returned home the Wednesday before Katrina struck, at which time they were going to attend a family reunion in late September - they were told on Sunday —again, BEFORE the aftermath began to be seen—that they could be in that area for up to two months.

We’ve received emails that are heartrending - their medical facilities, personnel and staff, as well as the capacity to generate OVER 70,000 gallons of potable water PER DAY went un-used due to waiting for a GD ’go ahead’. She said the morale onboard - as they all watched news updates via satellite - was the lowest ever seen.

WE HAD A FULLY LOADED - STOCKED - ABLE - ship and full crew ready to go in and help IMMEDIATELY.

I’m tired of all the ’speculation’ as to the truth of Bataan holding back - our family had the news BEFORE the media did.

Don’t blame the Bataan, its crew or commanders. Blame the bureaucratic bastards who kept them from heading in to help. Two days after we got word of this, the ship’s commander, Nora Tyson, was quoted in Navy Newsstand - "We’re waiting but we can’t force ourselves in...." The Barking Dog barked - but its owner wouldn’t untie the fucking leash.

The administration is finger-pointing in every direction, with all ten - but the sad fact remains - all it would have taken was ONE message, ONE word, ONE call - and help - less than ten miles out to sea—would have been given.

 
Written By: StJulien
URL: http://
Making excuses for the most dangerously incompetent president in the better part of a century must be mighty hard work.

You must be confused - I don’t see anything here about Jimmy Carter.
 
Written By: Lance Jonn Romanoff
URL: http://www.ljonn.com/
I’m relieved the President adhered to the law by not superseding States power otherwise, this would have set the public standard for all disaster response. Dangerously incompetent State governments who abandon all responsibilty in performing their elected duties have no excuse for such criminal acts. Their incompetence compounded the disaster.

When will Kossacks get it, Governors authorize power to the President not the other way around. State government’s failure to act is the fault of the Governor, not the President.

That and, if dino Kossacks ever manage to gain power of the White House they won’t be able to stage a coop d’tat.
 
Written By: syn
URL: http://
Hey St Julien - I hear you, but I’m not sure I understand you. You see, the Bataan had to wait for orders. That’s what the armed forces do. And if you think about it with a modecum of intelligence, you would not want it any other way. Also, look at what you wrote - so the Bataan can make 70,000 gallons of potable water a day. I’ll take you at your word for that, though I’m thiniking to myself either they need most of that water on board... or they have a capability they would not need very often... but I digress. So they can make 70,000 - and lets agree to that. What the hell do you think they would do with that water? Do they have 70,000 one gallon water bottles? Or did you expect 100,000 people to walk by the boat every day to get a drink? Sometimes it’s not just about what you can do - it’s about how you can do it... and what you do next.
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
Several posters here are repeating the canard that the Gov of LA did not declare an official state of emergency that would allow the federal govt to intercede immediately following Katrina’s landfall. Here’s a link to the original declaration of emergency from Gov. Babineaux - made on AUGUST 26th:

http://gov.louisiana.gov/2005%20%20proclamations/48pro2005-Emergency-HurricaneKatrina.pdf

Here’s a copy of her official request for federal aid delivered on August 27th:

http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4843

Some are now alleging the confusion about this timeline was first spun to the media by Karl Rove:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05bush.html

Both The Washington Post and the New York Times have now officially admitted that they made a mistake when they claimed Gov. Babineaux had not declared a state of emergency until after Katrina hit. Here’s an online example of the Post’s correction:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680.html

****

Re: the USS Bataan’s lack of response - as a former navy officer, I can assure you (meagain et al) that the capabilities of that ship to deliver aid (including many thousands of gallons of potable water) daily to locations many miles inland is unsurpassed - it’s one of the express purposes the ship was designed for and one of the primary missions her crew trains for. My contacts in the active service tell me that the crew (and staff) of the Bataan are frustrated and pissed as hell at having to hold off full response while hundreds or thousands of fellow Americans suffer and die within their reach.
 
Written By: jeff
URL: http://
Jeff:

Gov. Blanco did not declare a state of emergency. On August 27, she requested that Pres. Bush do so. Furthermore, if you read the actual request, you will see that there were no federal troops requested, and no authorization was given (at that time) for any active duty troops to perform "law enforcement duties."

As for the USS Bataan, it was performing search and rescue operations almost immediately after Katrina passed (by the Tuesday following touchdown), so I’m not understanding why your contacts are claiming to be frustrated that they had "to hold off full response while hundreds or thousands of fellow Americans suffer and die within their reach." In what sense did they "hold off"?
 
Written By: MichaelW
URL: http://
Why didn’t Bush issue the orders? Well, here’s the thing: he did.

My eyes aren’t as good as they once were, but I don’t see anything in the link discussing presidential orders. The President isn’t mentioned at all.
 
Written By: ed
URL: http://
In Response to Meagain -

In case you’re interested in offering a more enlightened opinion in future - check out the Bataan website, as well as the Navy Newsstand - there you’ll find the listed capabilities of the vessel, as well as the fact that the water producing capabilities are - in addition for crew benefit - also for use in assisting civilian populations during times of crisis on land.

Oh, and they don’t issue ’bottles’ of water. There are specialized containers known as ’bladders’ they’re transported to land via amphibious landing craft designed for that purpose - saving the population from - in your words - "Having to walk by the boat every day to get a drink." Jeff, in his post, explains it further. I encourage you to read up on the topic before resorting to sarcasm in attempt to prove your thesis.

"The Bataan had to wait for orders" I have no argument with that whatsoever. It’s the fact that those responsible for issuing those orders had their thumbs up their collective derrier (hmmm, French plural uses for buttocks???) derriers?

"That’s what the armed forces do..." Are you a member of those armed forces? Have you ever been? The emails I’ve been receiving come from three personnel aboard the Bataan, including my family member who has been in the Navy for over 25 years. I’m a military wife. How do you know what they do? You hadn’t a clue as to how the Bataan would transport water to shore.

Methinks I smell someone fishing for flamebait.

Jeff - thanks for your informed input, based on experience.




 
Written By: St.Julien
URL: http://
Great job St Julien! In response to MichaelW, a "federal" state of emergency turns authority over to FEMA. And yes, she does have to ask for it. FEMA has authority to get troops in and do what is necessary once the declaration is made. They do not have to go through all the bureaucratic crap which is one of the primary reasons FEMA was created. Here is what is stated in the FEMA Crisis Response Manual:

3. If Federal aid is requested by a State, what are three responsibilities of the Federal government?
= Conducts Joint Preliminary Damage Assessments (PDA) with State and local governments.
= Approves or denies requests for Federal assistance.
= If Federal assistance is approved:
􀂃 Activates the Federal Response Plan (FRP).
􀂃 Establishes the Emergency Support Team (EST).
􀂃 Identifies the Emergency Support Functions (ESFs) to respond.

Further, Blanco had already declared a state of emergency for the state which in advertently starts the proceedings to request "federal" relief. After her state recovery reports came in, she requested Bush to send federal assistance once he stopped clearing brush from his ranch.

source: http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/downloads/is208SDMUnit3.pdf
 
Written By: Moonsha
URL: http://
The Navy’s website seems to give a pretty complete rundown what the Bataan was doing.

From August 29 (the day of the storm):

The amphibious assault ship USS Bataan (LHD 5) and other U.S. Navy assets are making preparations to provide assistance in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, if needed. Bataan is currently underway in the Gulf of Mexico and standing by to provide assistance as needed in hurricane-affected areas.

Based in Norfolk, Bataan is underway for previously scheduled operations, and will remain in the vicinity of impacted areas until otherwise directed. If called upon, Bataan brings unique humanitarian capabilities to the scene.
Note that according to the NO Times-Picayune, the Coast Guard units pre-positioned by FEMA were in action doing search and rescue within hours after the storm. The T-P also reported tropical storm force winds well into the afternoon of the 29th - not a safe environment for helos to be flying at low-altitude in a built-up environment.

The flooding in New Orleans started out slowly; although it appears levees were actually leaking water by late on the 29th, the bulk of the catastrophic flooding took place on the 30th. And what was Bataan doing on the 30th?

The multipurpose amphibious assault ship USS Bataan (LHD 5) was tasked Aug. 30 to assist with Hurricane Katrina disaster relief efforts.

Two MH-60 search and rescue helicopters from Helicopter Sea Combat Squadron (HC) 28, based out of Norfolk, Va., launched at 5 p.m. CST Aug. 30 to assist in the search and rescue efforts that are currently ongoing in and around the New Orleans area.

At 6:30 p.m. CST, two MH-53 helicopters from Helicopter Mine Countermeasures Squadron (HM) 15, based out of Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Texas, also flew off Bataan to assist with efforts in the New Orleans area.

Bataan is currently underway in the Gulf of Mexico approximately 100 miles South of New Orleans. The ship’s involvement in humanitarian assistance operations is an effort by the Department of Defense in support of the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA).
It seems clear that the first priority was to rescue people whose lives were in imminent danger. This is what the mayor, governor and FEMA people were all saying, and what the Coast Guard, Navy and National Guard were all doing. Shipping supplies to the Superdome or evacuating people from there, where nobody’s life was in comparable immediate danger (apart from the failure or inability of local authorities to maintain law and order there) was not the first priority, and rightfully so.

In any case, there is no evidence of delay in the Bataan’s commitment, having been pre-positioned in the right place by DoD on instructions from FEMA.

People who want to find something to gripe about will inevitably succeed, and there was no humanly possible way to do "enough" in the first days after the storm, but there is no basis for the hysteria being stoked by the MSM, as I’m confident the interminable investigations will eventually bear out.
 
Written By: LagunaDave
URL: http://
Moonsha, The "State of Emergency" declared on the 26th referenced the Stafford Act and was not a request for FEMA to tkae over. To my knowledge, the state govt. is still in charge, not FEMA.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://





The Bush bashers in this thread have resorted to one of their favorite tactics which is to link to a website, news article or other source that allegedly supports their claim, but doesn’t.

1. Jeff says "Several posters here are repeating the canard that the Gov of LA did not declare an official state of emergency that would allow the federal govt to intercede immediately following Katrina’s landfall." He then links to Gov. Blanco’s (not Babineaux you idiot) proclamation declaring a state of emergency. That proclamation is an executive order issued by the governor of the State of Louisiana pursuant to Louisiana Revised Statute 29:721 et seq. It is not a request for relief from the Federal Government and it does not allow the Federal Government to "intercede" or do anything else. It applies solely to the State of Louisiana and has no effect on anyone except Louisiana authorities.

The Stafford Act (42 U.S.C. 5191 et seq.) is the Federal statute that controls the provision of federal disaster aid. Section 5191 clearly states that "All requests for a declaration by the President that an emergency exists shall be made by the Governor of the affected State…As part of that request, and as a prerequisite to emergency assistance under this chapter, the Governor shall take appropriate action under State Law and direct execution of the State’s emergency plan.” Blanco’s proclamation was one of the necessary steps for the receipt of federal aid but it does not authorize it. Her proclamation directed “execution of the State’s emergency plan” but that was only one part of what is required to bring in the Federal Government. She must make a separate request for Federal aid and she didn’t do so until the next day.

Unfortunately for Bush bashers, the Federal Aid requested by Gov. Blanco on August 27, 2005, doesn’t say a single thing about evacuating New Orleans, providing law enforcement for New Orleans or supplying provisions for evacuees stranded in New Orleans. It asks for the creation of special need shelters, generators for those shelters and money to fund the activities of the State Police and the State Departments of Transportation and Wildlife. The President, however, was one step ahead of her because he had already issued a declaration that state of emergency existed in the State of Louisiana on August 26, 2005. http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html After August 26th, Blanco could have requested any kind of Federal aid she wanted but she didn’t. She didn’t even request more National Guard troops pursuant to the “multi-state compact for mutual assistance until Wednesday” according to the Washington Post.

Furthermore, according to the New York Times and the Washington Post, as of yesterday Blanco was still refusing to cede any “control” over the disaster operations to the Federal Government. Nonetheless, FEMA is acting in its support role and some active military units are providing support. Those are the roles that FEMA and the Federal Government are supposed to play. “Other federal and state officials pointed to Louisiana’s failure to measure up to national disaster response standards, noting that the federal plan advises state and local emergency managers not to expect federal aid for 72 to 96 hours, and base their own preparedness efforts on the need to be self-sufficient for at least that period.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301653_4.html Clearly, New Orleans and the State of Louisiana’s own emergency plans anticipated that they would handle the initial emergency response http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26 and http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf. The fact that those state and local efforts turned out to be non-existent is the direct responsibility of state and local officials, not the Bush Administration.

Liberals don’t seem to understand that merely saying something is so doesn’t mean that it is. You can say that you’re the Easter Bunny if you want, but you aren’t. Blanco’s proclamation did not authorize the intervention of the Federal Government, let alone the use of the U.S. military for law enforcement or the evacuation of New Orleans. Her request for Federal aid asked for money and “special needs” shelters. The problems with the relief effort in New Orleans had nothing to do with any of that.

2. The Bush bashers are trying to make an issue of the U.S.S. Bataan’s rescue operations. However, the levees broke on Tuesday August 30, 2005, http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-katrina-levees,0,4307527.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines
The helicopters from the U.S.S. Bataan were flying search and rescue and med-evac missions on the morning of August 31st according to the American Forces Press Service. http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Aug2005/20050831_2576.html I don’t know anything about the frustrations of those on board but the Bataan’s six helicopters began operations less than 24 hours after the flooding began.

Meanwhile, on September 1st Blanco issued a proclamation authorizing the use of school buses for evacuation http://www.gov.state.la.us/Press_Release_detail.asp?id=991
However, Mayor Nagin’s inaction had already rendered useless the buses closest to those who needed them. http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_08_28.html#004752 It also now appears that New Orleans had no plan to evacuate those without transportation http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/data/2005/09/05/20050905_230000_flash3kt.htm which directly violates the New Orleans Emergency Preparedness Plan linked to above.


 
Written By: Jt007
URL: http://
Another Bataan family member weighs in —-

www.chicagotribune.com

Quotes from Nora Tyson, Captain, Commander U.S.S.Bataan.


GULF COAST CRISIS: OFF THE GULF COAST



Navy ship nearby underused
Craft with food, water, doctors needed orders

By Stephen J. Hedges
Tribune national correspondent
Published September 4, 2005


ON THE USS BATAAN—While federal and state emergency planners scramble to get more military relief to Gulf Coast communities stricken by Hurricane Katrina, a massive naval goodwill station has been cruising offshore, underused and waiting for a larger role in the effort.

The USS Bataan, a 844-foot ship designed to dispatch Marines in amphibious assaults, has helicopters, doctors, hospital beds, food and water. It also can make its own water, up to 100,000 gallons a day. And it just happened to be in the Gulf of Mexico when Katrina came roaring ashore.

The Bataan rode out the storm and then followed it toward shore, awaiting relief orders. Helicopter pilots flying from its deck were some of the first to begin plucking stranded New Orleans residents.

But now the Bataan’s hospital facilities, including six operating rooms and beds for 600 patients, are empty. A good share of its 1,200 sailors could also go ashore to help with the relief effort, but they haven’t been asked. The Bataan has been in the stricken region the longest of any military unit, but federal authorities have yet to fully utilize the ship.

Captain ready, waiting

"Could we do more?" said Capt. Nora Tyson, commander of the Bataan. "Sure. I’ve got sailors who could be on the beach plucking through garbage or distributing water and food and stuff. But I can’t force myself on people.

"We’re doing everything we can to contribute right now, and we’re ready. If someone says you need to take on people, we’re ready. If they say hospitals on the beach can’t handle it ... if they need to send the overflow out here, we’re ready. We’ve got lots of room."

use the Chicago Tribune link for further.

Of course, we - and by that I mean our family—already knew about it. Yes, they went in and performed helio rescue/transport for approximately 175 people the first day but had to stop due to shooting - which certain members of the media and adminsitration pooh-poohed - but they still were not allowed go to in and drop supplies. "We can’t force ourselves on people" to quote the Captain.
———- link to read the full article ——

My job as a 911 Dispatcher has taught me the vast difference between what the media reports and what is actually going on. It’s an eye-opening experience to be on the radio headsets as a situation ’goes down’ while my co-workers watch the media coverage - which is ALWAYS flawed - usually speculative and, unfortunately, often 100% horseshit, strewn about for the sake of a ’scoop’. Such is the case here.

I don’t care about the whining, toddler stampings of those who attempt to deflect the veracity of my statements by questioning the truth of my position as a military family member. I am compelled to speak -irregardless of what they think.

Happily, the Bataan is now being allowed to shine - and it is doing so brilliantly, with over 1,600 persons rescued and deliveries of water and supplies going out to those who need it most.

We KNOW what is happening, as do the other spouses, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters of those who serve aboard Bataan, a crew who has ridden this damned thing out from the get-go. Our sailors wanted to do more - were champing at the bit to do what they’ve trained to do endlessly. The Captain wanted to do more but the Feeble Emergency Management Agency struck again, or rather failed to.

Whether you’re a liberal or conservative - guess what? We’ll ALL pay the price for this.

Rennie
 
Written By: Rene
URL: http://
In case you’re interested in offering a more enlightened opinion in future
Nice - thanks.

OK, I read the site. 500 gallon bladders certainly allow for transport. Though I’m still wondering what the survivors would have done with bladders that weigh 4,165 pounds. I was also unable to determine how many bladdres they have on board... 70,000 gallons a day potential would require a lot of bladders.

Beyond the specifics of the above, my point was that frustration aside, some of the rescue efforts take time and require things to be in order on the ground.
Are you a member of those armed forces? Have you ever been?
No and no. Does that invalidate my opinion? My point was that our armed forces wait for orders before acting. They may indeed get frsutrated - but what is the alternative?
Methinks I smell someone fishing for flamebait
Methinks I have no clue what that means. I’m thinking about the events that are occurring and attempting to discuss them.
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
Though I’m still wondering what the survivors would have done with bladders that weigh 4,165 pounds.

Oh come on ... they’re flown to a distribution point where fresh water is made available to those who need it. This isn’t rocket science for heaven sake.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
Oh come on ... they’re flown to a distribution point where fresh water is made available to those who need it. This isn’t rocket science for heaven sake.

Fair enough, but the people who will need fresh water will probably need containers to fill to be able to use it, don’t you think?

It’s somewhat like the jerry can problem in WWII; the only way (then) to get fuel from the fuel distribution points to the vehicles was in jerry cans. The troops tended to throw the cans away after refueling. No jerry cans, no way to refuel even with thousands of gallons of fuel in the dumps.

Maybe that’s not a problem in New Orleans; I don’t know.

 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
And if the point to which the bladder is taken is set up as a "water distribution point" it most likely will have containers on hand to begin with.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
This isn’t rocket science for heaven sake.
I know it’s not rocket science McQ - I guess I am making my point poorly - were distribution areas set up? Were the containers available? Those are the things I’m talkiing about. They take time - and people and space.
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
I know it’s not rocket science McQ - I guess I am making my point poorly -

Fair enough ... I just thought it was a bit of a nitpicking point.

Containers can be just about anything available and usually at a local level (a milk processing plant, for instance, would have thousands of them). There are other places to procure them (2 gal buckets from Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc).

And yes, there are distribution centers set up all over the place, per the videos I’ve seen of people moving through them and having supplies (such as water) handed to them.

They take time - and people and space.

Yes they do, and the time has passed for them to be set up, the people are available and Katrina took care of clearing much of the needed space.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
Yes they do, and the time has passed for them to be set up, the people are available and Katrina took care of clearing much of the needed space.

I had thought the discussion was about the USS Bataan sitting around with nothing to do right after the storm passed. At that time, the ship could have produced shitloads of fresh drinking water but there was not an infastructure in place to accept the water blivits. The fact that there is an infastructure in place now is a good thing for the people of New Orleans, but I don’t think that it was in place then.

I could also be full of shit. It won’t be the first time.

 
Written By: Mark
URL: http://
The water they produce isn’t just limited to NO.

It can be flown or landed all over the effected coast.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
You guys are wasting your breath (typing fingers) on any and all Bush-bashers. I work with a guy who, this morning, came right out and said, "I hate Bush!" There was no convincing him that ACCORDING TO OUR CONSTITUTION, the federal government=BUSH, cannot act till given that authority by the state. Also impossible to prove to him how inept the local (250+ school buses for evacuation not used) government screwed up; and state (not calling LA National Guard, or giving feds control [even N.O. mayor now saying gov. said she needs "24 hrs." to make decision]). Nope, they hate Bush so much, facts don’t matter.
 
Written By: JEGjr
URL: http://
Given the cogent and reasoned responses to the original claim of the post which heads this comment thread, I think it’s becoming increasingly apparent that left-wing moonbats aren’t the least bit interested in the truth but would rather spend their time cherry-picking already suspect "news" accounts in order the grind their hate-Bush axes. There is no rational remedy for this kind of pathology

Thank you to those fair-minded individuals who are setting the record straight regarding this egregious lie concerning the USS Bataan.
 
Written By: Hankmeister
URL: http://
Wotta Mess!
Do liberals ever join the military except to get college money? And just look at those croc tears.
"Tommy this and Tommy that an’ chuck ’em out the brute!
"But savior of the country when the guns begin to shoot.
"An’ Tommy this an’ Tommy that an’ anything you please.
"But Tommy ain’t no bloody fool, you bet that Tommy Sees.
Does anyone know what Posse Commotatus means?
Civil war? Law enacted to facilitate southern reconstruction that prohibits federal military assets from being used to enforce civilian law? Has anyone read the congressional records dated 1986 as to the new limits of this law?
I’m not a lawyer. Just a military man (ex)who knows who his friends are: an’ tain’t no liberals
 
Written By: ssg Winfrey
URL: http://
Hooah Winfrey!

Libs need more exposure to Kipling and less to Chomsky.

When the wolves breach the wall we will be there to stand between them and the lefty sheep.

We will faithfully defend their absolute right to spout any hateful, vicious, sleazy or just plain stupid lies that they please and to continue to place their silly, useless and corrupt Democrat hacks in high office so we can continue to suffer from their incompetence.

We will continue to protect their liberties although I am certain they don’t give a damn about ours. We will do our job and protect their weanie asses. Unless the bastards stab us in the back in which case the poor babes are on their own...

Drive on!
 
Written By: MSG Willy
URL: http://
General Honore said Governor Blanco requested troops twice before the hurricane hit. Below is from http://www.dod.gov/transcripts/2005/tr20050901-3843.html

Q General, Jamie McIntyre from CNN. To what extent is this additional assistance you’ve outlined today a response to a request from the state governors in Louisiana, Mississippi? And if so, can you tell us when specifically you got that request?

GEN. HONORÉ: Yes, sir. The process starts, sir, in this particular event, with a request Friday of last week, as the approximate date for defense coordinating offices to be established in Florida, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. Those were established in those states over Friday and Saturday.

Q Sir, I’m specifically interested in how soon after the hurricane hit and the extent of the damage became known did the governors request additional assistance above and beyond what they had requested before?

GEN. HONORÉ: Sir, that started to happen on Saturday, as the hurricane was approaching, and was executed with the movement of my headquarters on Sunday to Mississippi, where we established a joint—JTF headquarters here in Mississippi with a forward cell of the 5th United States Army in Louisiana. And on Sunday we established JTF-Katrina, with myself as the task force commander.

And since that time, we’ve continued to flow naval air and Army helicopter support and other assets, as requested by the governor, through FEMA. And that is the process, and you know that works. The governor identified a requirement. It goes to FEMA. That requirement is sent to Northern Command, my boss, Admiral Keating, as parallel to General McNeill at Forces Command. And we have started to flow the forces to your region. Over.

MR. DI RITA: You know—it’s Larry DiRita—I think what people are interested in, if you know, is when specifically or if indeed did the governors specifically ask for additional security forces and when that might have been? And if you don’t know that, we’ll try and find it, but that would be—I think that’s a little more refined aspect of what the reporter’s asking for.

GEN. HONORÉ: Yeah, that was incremental. The security force piece was executed through a process called EMAC. That started on Sunday, a collaboration between the adjutant general and the National Guard Bureau to flow additional capabilities to Louisiana and to Mississippi. That flow started approximately around Sunday. Forces started moving once the eye of the hurricane had passed and we could start moving forces in and assist the states, Alabama pushed forces into Mississippi as well as forces from Texas started to flow into Louisiana, as well as other states. But that’s the approximate phase of the operation. Again, that was executed through National Guard arrangements to move National Guard capability where it’s needed. And that is what is happening, an extension of that, now.

The DOD capability was based on requests that came from FEMA for additional ability to assist in search and rescue, and that was called a mission assignment. Those started on Sunday. And we were here on Sunday, and by Monday, the Bataan was present, as well as federal helicopters started arriving Monday to assist in the search and rescue and the sustainment operation, that that is the timeline as it was executed in the process.

Any more specifics on that? Over.

Q No, that’s fine.

 
Written By: Mark
URL: http://

 
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