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Immigration reform: First, control the borders
Posted by: mcq on Thursday, March 30, 2006

One of the reasons most of us have mixed feelings about the immigration issues is we're all from immigrant stock. On my father's side, the first McQuain to arrive in the new world did so as an indentured servant. It turned out ok. He served out his indenture, married the "boss's" daughter, served with the Virginia militia during the Revolution and ended up with a little piece of land which is still in the extended family. On my mother's side, the immigrantion took place a little later than that of old Alexander, but with a name like Mackey, you can imagine how well they were received.

So as with most Americans, I can see and appreciate the other side of the immigration debate. But, when all is said and done, I am an American. I'm not Scotch or Irish. I'm not German (even though my dad's mother's name was Millerhaus). A mongrel yes ... but an American mongrel.

All of that to preface comments on George Will's column today. First let me dispense with a tired old canard that I'm surprised Will uses:
It is a melancholy fact that many of these may have to be employed along the U.S.-Mexican border. The alternatives are dangerous and disagreeable conditions for Americans residing near the border, and vigilantism. It is, however, important that Americans feel melancholy about taking such measures to frustrate immigration that usually is an entrepreneurial act — taking risks to get to America to do work most Americans spurn. As debate about immigration policy boils, augmented border control must not be the entire agenda, lest other thorny problems be ignored, and lest America turn a scowling face to the south and, to some extent, to many immigrants already here.
Americans do not "spurn" the work. Americans mostly refuse the work because they don't feel the pay is commensurate with the labor. There's a big difference between saying I won't do that type of work and I won't do it at that price.

But that's a diversion from the topic. Border control is a prerequisite to any meaningful immigration reform. Without it, nothing changes. In fact, I can promise you that the tide will not ebb, but grow larger. Will gives us four reasons why border control is the "top of the agenda" item:
First, control of borders is an essential attribute of sovereignty. Second, current conditions along the border mock the rule of law. Third, large rallies by immigrants, many of them here illegally, protesting more stringent control of immigration reveal that many immigrants have, alas, assimilated: They have acquired the entitlement mentality spawned by America's welfare state, asserting an entitlement to exemption from the laws of the society they invited themselves into. Fourth, giving Americans a sense that borders are controlled is a prerequisite for calm consideration of what policy that control should serve.
Now you may feel the tendency to mock number three a bit. Don't. While I wouldn't call their demands proof of "assimilation", I would point out that it does indeed smack of the entitlement mentality. Illegal immigrants need to be disabused of any claim to entitlement they think their presense gives them.

However, to me, the most important point of the four is number four. If and when we can establish control of our borders, we can then calmly and rationally consider immigration reform. Until then, I don't think that's possible.

So in my estimation, we need to separate the two issues and pursue border control first. Once that is done, then then it is logical to proceed to immigration.

Of course we can build a wall from east to west along the Mexican border and Canada and there will still be illegal immigrants entering the country. But not in the numbers we see today. I'm not advocating a wall, don't get me wrong. I'm just pointing out that even the most draconian measures along the border won't stop illegals from trying and succeeding in getting into the country. It will, however, make it much harder and that alone will see the numbers drop dramatically.

Once those borders are secure, then let's talk turkey about immigration reform.
 
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Previous Comments to this Post 

Comments
This is a great idea. After we stem the flow of illegal immigrants coming across the border we should then try the same thing with drugs. Certainly we can make the War on Illegal Mexican Labor at least as successful as the War on Drugs.

yours/
peter.
 
Written By: Peter Jackson
URL: http://www.liberalcapitalist.com
A whole bunch of Harvard students and I have got together to blog on immigration issues as well on our blog, Immigration Orange.

I actually just finished a trip imitating the trip of a migrant from Guatemala and had to cut it short when I got on the wrong side of coyotes. It’s all on Immigration Orange.

You maybe right when you say that border control is important, but if you really want to stop immigration than you have to start giving immigrants a reason to stay.

The most efficient way to stop immigration, without the enormous costs associated with not only security but bussing and flying illegal migrants back, is prevention. Migration is fueled by the enormous inequalities in the region, both between countries and within them. That is what has to be attacked, and those are the policy debates we should be having.
 
Written By: Kyle de Beausset
URL: http://immigration.campustap.com
There are major differences between the War on Drugs and stopping illegal immigration.

While we need more border enforcement, a more important root cause needs to be addressed: political corruption.

Why do you think so very many politicians oppose immigration enforcement?

Could it be because they receive donations from those companies that profit off illegal immigration?

Could they then allow illegal activity because of those contributions?

There are other reasons why politicians might support illegal immigration, but that issue needs to be addressed. If it isn’t, the problem will continue.
 
Written By: TLB
URL: http://lonewacko.com
Bruce,

You make very good points.

The argument that illegal aliens contribute to the economy is belied by research from the Pew Hispanic Center showing that Mexicans, the largest immigrant group and 85% illegal according to Pew estimates , send some $16 billion dollars to Mexico yearly, where it is the second largest source of Mexico’s national income. A lot of illegal workers are paid under the table and don’t pay taxes and if so much of what is earned is sent to Mexico, who pays for health care, other social services and schooling for illegal aliens and their often large families? Ten percent of the U.S. prison population, much higher in border states, is made up of illegals, who pays the extra money for this? Citizens and taxpayers do.

Seems to me illegal aliens are a net loss for our economy since they consume far more tax money than they contribute, tax money that should be used to pay for things that benefit U.S. citizens.

I am real tired of all the euphemisms used to describe illegal aliens. They’re called "undocumented immigrants", "undocumented entrants","paperless immigrants" you name it, all to divert attention from the basic fact that they have broken one or more U.S. laws just in being here. If illegals find it easy to break one law I imagine they would find breaking a few more to be no big thing.

A final point. As Thomas Sowell has recently pointed out, illegals are gate crashers and are due the same treatment that we would give to someone who crashed our party, pushed his way to the front of the line for food and cleared all the place cards from the best table so he could sit there.
 
Written By: Gary Reynolds
URL: http://
Migration is fueled by the enormous inequalities in the region, both between countries and within them. That is what has to be attacked, and those are the policy debates we should be having.
Be that as it may, conditions in one country do not empower someone to disredard the laws of another country. Not to mention the fact that if we started to debate how Guatemala can improve its economy, the leftist liberal horde would be claiming the Imperialist/Capaitalist Pigs are trying to rule another country.

Guatemala has to figure out its own solutions. As does Mexico. As does every other country who’s residents risk life and limb to leave.
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
Bullsh*t Wacko.

If anything in your little copy and paste were true, WE WOULDN’T BE IN THE SITUATION WE ARE IN TODAY. If any of it were true, we wouldn’t have Mexicans streaming over the border right now. But we do. And the more workers we are successful in turning away, the higher those wages will go, providing even more incentive for creative,— and most likely more dangerous— solutions to the problem.

And by the way, I hope you and your one-note drum don’t do to Q and O what you did to the Command Post.

Gary!
Seems to me illegal aliens are a net loss for our economy since they consume far more tax money than they contribute, tax money that should be used to pay for things that benefit U.S. citizens
Why don’t we revisit this statement after you pay $6 for a head of lettuce. In the meantime, why don’t you ask yourself what happens to that $16 billion once it gets to Mexico, as well as what happens to the money saved in the US because cheaper goods and services are available produced by Mexican labor.

meagain!
Be that as it may, conditions in one country do not empower someone to disredard the laws of another country.
This is what all of you Anti-Mexicans are stuck on. You can’t get past this whole "disregard" of the law thing. Has it ever occurred to you that the law isn’t disregarded due to criminal-mindedness but simply because the law is stupid? You know, like if they dropped the national speed limit to 15MPH? Would you and every one you know then be a criminal after you "disregarded" a law that was so inconsistent with the "be that as it may" reality of the way Americans use automobiles? Stop being offended and start thinking. Please.

yours/
peter.
 
Written By: Peter Jackson
URL: http://www.liberalcapitalist.com
In response to Kyle:
Mexico is a sovereign state. The economic conditions within that country are largely the result of the policies of that independent people’s government. For us to effect a leveling of economic inequalities, we would have three choices:

1) Eliminate Mexican sovereignty in fact by annexing it. (Don’t laugh, we did it with Afghanistan and Iraq in effect for other reasons.)

2) Eliminate Mexican sovereignty in practice by forcing them to adopt our financial policies. (Don’t laugh, Senators Coburn and Schumer were trying to set Chinese currency policy a week ago.)

3) Eliminate Mexican sovereignty indirectly by injecting sufficient cash that the Mexican people are no longer subject to the results of their government’s economic policies - but instead to ours.

There are many well-meaning people who think option 3, which we call foreign aid, is benign, not to say wonderful. It is potentially the most pernicious - it puts the United States and other wealthy nations in charge of whether the conditions are good or bad for the government of a supposedly sovereign state to survive. It masks the symptoms of decay that might otherwise prompt a sovereign people to change course. And it leaves us the option of - in righteous indignation - impoverishing a people should their leaders push us too far.

Kyle is possibly right that the best long-term solution to the immigration problem is for the United States to directly or indirectly sabotage Mexican sovereignty by determining its economic conditions by our policies. But I don’t think that was the intended meaning.

I myself think there is another way we can harmonize conditions between the two countries. In the short term it’s ugly; in the long term, it may be the only answer. Right now, the politicians of Mexico have a pressure valve - illegal and legal immigration - that allows them to pursue policies that are bad for the country but good for select constituencies. This leads to the impoverishment of the Mexican people and the transference of Mexico’s income generating power from the Mexican economy to the American economy.

Tighter, if hardly impermeable, border controls, would simultaneously limit the outside income which subsidizes poor Mexican socio-economic policy and increase the number of productive workers within the country. While Mexican politicians would blame the U.S. - more than ever - for all that ails, the lack of a shut-off valve would force Mexico to choose between maintaining regimes with lousy policies and suffering the consequences or looking for a better way.

There are those who talk about giving productive workers from Mexico a fair shot in the U.S. while taking action to alleviate inequalities between the two countries. What this really means is that the U.S. will absorb those Mexicans who are productive, let the Mexicans in Mexico languish in a declining society and throw enough money their way to subsidize an independent nation’s descent into full-fledged vassal status.

If we feel bad about restricting immigration on our own behalf, we should be doing so on Mexico’s behalf. If we continue to be the place for those who take chances to come and get ahead and in the bargain provide the financing to keep corrupt and inept governments in place, in 20-50 years, Mexico will lay in ruins (even moreso than now) and we will discover that the inequalities Kyle wants to address will have grown 1000 times worse.

 
Written By: Geoffrey Barto
URL: http://gbarto.com/turkey
To Peter jackson,

I’d rather pay the $6.00 and not have the massive problems we are having with illegal aliens. By the way, if the massive numbers of illegal aliens in question were from, say, Iceland or Brazil, Great Britain or Fiji, my objections would be the same.

I believe it was Sowell who argued that it isn’t that illegals take jobs that Americans refuse but rather that illegals take jobs that are too low paying for the work required and that by doing this illegals lower the wages of all.

As for where the $16 billion goes, I think it probably supports Mexican citizens just enough to enable the kleptocratic and corrupt Mexican government to postpone critical changes in their economic, social and political policies.

The Mexican ruling elite has succeeded in holding on to power by holding these changes at bay, shifing the manifold problems caused by their present policies—unemployment, poverty, lack of adequate health care and education and drug-fueled crime problems—across our border where U.S. citizens, suckers that we are, are paying the price. Think of U.S. taxpayers and citizens as Mexico’s safety valve.

According to recent news stories, the Mexican government prints and distributes a pamphlet teaching illegals techniques that they can use to more easily cross the U. S. border with more tips on how to hide from our authorities when they make it. Seems like a hostile act to me. In addition officials from the 40 plus Mexican consulates in the U.S. apparently routinely argue that Mexican illegals caught in the interior of the U.S. should not be subject to U.S. law.

Put the pamphlets together with the attitudes displayed in recent massive demonstrations by illegals carrying mainly Mexican flags, demanding "rights" and with the bolder of them calling for the Reconquista of the lands the U.S. won from Mexico. It isn’t just poor, starving immigrants just wanting a better life for their families, this is rather a slow motion invasion that is Mexican state policy.
 
Written By: Gary Reynolds
URL: http://
This is what all of you Anti-Mexicans are stuck on. You can’t get past this whole "disregard" of the law thing.
Anti-Mexican? Painting with a broad brush there Peter Jackson. I am NOT anti-anyone. I’m married to a Brazillian and have many friends of Mexican and Latin American descent. So back off on the name calling.

Yeah, I’m crazy when it comes to ’disregarding’ the law. Please. If you don’t like a law, you work to change it or you accept it and work within the rules. I think most of the drug laws are dumb. I also think if you get arrested for using/possessing drugs you have to face the music.

If you have a problem with the sitiation in Mexico, then work on changing Mexico. We are a nation of laws. Casually ’disregard’ them at all of our peril.
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
You can always tell when the unhinged pro-amnesty types are losing the argument: They resort to the good old "BIGOT!" argument.

But we do. And the more workers we are successful in turning away, the higher those wages will go, providing even more incentive for creative,— and most likely more dangerous— solutions to the problem.

Hence the need for actual border enforcement. By the way, ask Israel how successful their fence has been. Once we get the border under control, we can adjust the flow of legal immigrants to meet demand anyway.

Why don’t we revisit this statement after you pay $6 for a head of lettuce. In the meantime, why don’t you ask yourself what happens to that $16 billion once it gets to Mexico, as well as what happens to the money saved in the US because cheaper goods and services are available produced by Mexican labor.

For starters, unlike you I’m not willing to cede our national sovereignty for the price of lettuce. Why don’t you ask how much it costs to provide social services for 12 million freeloaders and cope with the increased crime rates associated with them? Let’s see what the NY Times has to say:
The quality-of-life problems of border communities are not well publicized, and they are not the kind of issue that makes or breaks government policy. But some immigration experts say these problems add another point of view to a national debate that has lately focused on the risks to the illegal immigrants. A General Accounting Office report released in August said that other communities where border enforcement had increased had experienced economic improvement and lower rates of crimes like theft.
And there’s this inconvenient little fact:
Since 1980, the number of Hispanics with incomes below the government’s poverty line (about $19,300 in 2004 for a family of four) has risen 162 percent. Over the same period, the number of non-Hispanic whites in poverty rose 3 percent and the number of blacks, 9.5 percent.
This is what all of you Anti-Mexicans are stuck on. You can’t get past this whole "disregard" of the law thing. Has it ever occurred to you that the law isn’t disregarded due to criminal-mindedness but simply because the law is stupid?

Well, in a Democracy laws generally reflect the will of the populace. Stupid or not, most people agree with this law. America can’t afford to be Mexico’s welfare state. As "meagain" said, if you don’t like lobby for it to be changed.
 
Written By: Jordan
URL: http://
I’m not going to bother replying to the "liberal" again, but:

If any of it were true, we wouldn’t have Mexicans streaming over the border right now.

We have that situation because they know they can find jobs and get services. If neither were true, they wouldn’t come.

They can find jobs because employers know they can hire them with impunity.

Therefore, we ask: why aren’t our laws being enforced? We follow the money, and we see the truth.

Why don’t we revisit this statement after you pay $6 for a head of lettuce.

Labor costs are just 10% of the cost of lettuce. Meaning that labor costs would have to about dectuple before lettuce prices just doubled.
 
Written By: TLB
URL: http://lonewacko.com
Labor costs are just 10% of the cost of lettuce. Meaning that labor costs would have to about dectuple before lettuce prices just doubled.

That’s a good point. That made me remember this:
It’s a myth that the U.S. economy ``needs’’ more poor immigrants. The illegal immigrants already here represent only about 4.9 percent of the labor force, reports the Pew Hispanic Center. In no major occupation are they a majority. They’re 36 percent of insulation workers, 28 percent of drywall installers and 20 percent of cooks. They’re mainly drawn here by vast wage differences, not labor ``shortages.’’ In 2004, the median hourly wage in Mexico was $1.86 compared to $9 for Mexicans working in the United States, says Rakesh Kochhar of Pew.
 
Written By: Jordan
URL: http://
6$ lettuce?
I guess we will have to cope with that, like we did when Caesar Chavez unionized the grape workers and increased their wages.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://

Gary!
I’d rather pay the $6.00 and not have the massive problems we are having with illegal aliens.
Well hey, it would be nice if that were really our choice, wouldn’t it? The truth is if you get your way, we’ll wind up with both the "massive problems" AND $6 lettuce. And that’s the problem. If we go with a "first, control the borders," we’ll never get to step 2—ever. Still, you bring us back to my original point: exactly what makes you think we’ll be any more successful banning Mexicans then we’ve been at banning cocaine? Seriously? I mean you guys sound like Hillary talkiing about health care: everyone could have access to free health care if the government just tried. What makes you believe that in the case of Mexicans, anything short Sovietizing our borders with Mexico is going to keep anyone out that wants to get here? Any success of your strategy carries within it the seeds of it’s own failure: as prices for low-skill labor rise as the supply falls, the incentive for jumping the border is increases and continues to increase the more successful you are. Out of all the posts jumping on me here, NOT ONE of you even addresses this—a phenomenon you know, as alleged conservatives, to be true.

As far as Thomas Sowell goes, he’s arguing against the rationale used by the left to support their psuedo-humanitarian position. The left’s position in no way resembles my position. I’m not arguing for any type of amnesty for anyone, or even for changing the rules for becoming a citizen. I’m merely arguing that by arbitrarily constraining the number of Mexicans allowed into the US to work far below the number that actually wants to come in, we’ve created a prohibition-like environment where the law is ignored. And Sowell knows this better than anyone.


meagain!
Anti-Mexican? Painting with a broad brush there Peter Jackson. I am NOT anti-anyone. I’m married to a Brazillian and have many friends of Mexican and Latin American descent. So back off on the name calling.
Well I’m certainly willing to give you any benefit of the doubt, but at the same time I’ve never encountered even one anti-immigrationist that was even aware of how many Canadians are here illegally, much less how many Europeans. I mean, there could be five Europeans here illegally for every one Mexican and they wouldn’t even know. Why? Because they obvoiously don’t care. Yet start talking about Mexicans and they get all hot and bothered. It’s not name-calling: if one walks like an anti-Mexican and talks like an anti-Mexican, one is anti-Mexican in my book.


Jordan!
For starters, unlike you I’m not willing to cede our national sovereignty for the price of lettuce
This is pure hyperbole. If national sovereignty depended on a nations’ ability to keep individuals from crossing their border for one reason or another, then the only sovereign nations in this world are North Korea, Cuba, and possibly Israel. And by the way, I was being allegorical with the lettuce thing. In reality we would be looking at the price of just about everything going up, from food to housing. In case no one has noticed, our national unemployment stands at 4.8%, which is .2% less than that which economists used to consider full employment. When it comes to low-skill workers, we’ve simply run out for all practical purposes. But of course our current immigration laws— which, if you hadn’t noticed, we all agree aren’t working—are based on a completely different reality (an infinite supply of cheap labor available from the agricultural sector) and the socialist ideas about labor predicated on that defunct reality. If low-wage workers aren’t brought in, this means that employers of low-skilled workers will have to compete with employers of medium-skilled workers, driving up the cost of both... and on and on up the chain. This of course is the case with all protectionism. There’s nothing special about labor that makes the laws of supply and demand work any differently.
Hence the need for actual border enforcement. By the way, ask Israel how successful their fence has been.
Yes, let’s talk about Israel’s fence; I’m a big fan of it. For starters, it would barely wrap around Los Angeles county. But most importantly: is that what you really want on the southern border of the US? Machine gun nests, land mines, high voltage, watch towers full of sharp-shooters? And even Israel lets thousands of Palestinians cross to work in Israel every day. I find this suggestion ludicrous. Jesus, Israel is trying to protect themselves from suicide bombers with their fence. You want to spend God knows how many additional $billions to protect us from... illegal roofers. Are we trying to redefine "hysterical" or what?



Hey Wacko.
Therefore, we ask: why aren’t our laws being enforced?
Because as those laws currently exist, they are beyond the capacity of the government to enforce.

Listen very carefully Wacko: THE FACT THAT A GOVERNMENT POLICY DOESN’T PRODUCE THE OUTCOME INTENDED IS NOT EVIDENCE OF INCOMPETENCE OR LACK OF POLITICAL WILL.

What is so difficult about this for conservatives to understand? We spend $billion after $billion on the war on drugs, we’ve got virtually every law enforcement officer in the country deployed in the war on drugs, we have over a million non-violent drug offenders in jail, we’ve weakened virtually every protection in the Bill of Rights—ESPECIALLY the Second Amendment— in the name of fighting the drug war, and yet we’ve haven’t managed to get drugs out of our penitentiaries, let alone our middle schools. So wacko, in the war on drugs, are we just not trying?

 
Written By: Peter Jackson
URL: http://www.liberalcapitalist.com
Still, you bring us back to my original point: exactly what makes you think we’ll be any more successful banning Mexicans then we’ve been at banning cocaine?
You know, this is an assinine comparison when you really think about it.

Cocaine is a consumable that can be smuggled in various ways. You use it and it’s gone. It doesn’t hang around for years.

Its illegally distributed and handled by outlaw organizations.

It can be smuggled in in small packets or shipped in bulk. It can arrive in a container after a month at sea. To compare that to illegals crossing a borders is, well, specious at best.

But you could control it’s use if you wanted to be draconian enough. The way to control the use of cocaine, the best way, is to incarcerate the users (and the producers and distributers if you can find them). No consumers, no market. A huge job, eh? No way, you say.

I agree. It’s made up of millions of individuals. Veritable drops in a sea of users.

Now, who are the "users" when it comes to illegals.

Ah, businesses. No work without their demand.

Suddenly it isn’t so implausible when you consider the problem in that light. While still a sea, it is a sea in which the "drops" could potentially lose everything they’ve worked for.

A few raids, a few huge fines, a little jail time in a couple of high visibility cases and suddenly the market for illegals begins to dry up. It is no longer worth the relative savings illegals bring them.

Do we want to go to that extent? Do we have the will to do that?

I don’t know. Its not something I’d like to see, that’s for sure. But it could be done.

The illegal immigration problems isn’t like cocaine, and it can be stopped if the political will is there. The technology and money certainly are. It all depends on what the people demand, doesn’t it?

It all comes down to the question of how the ’will of the people’ will be expressed and interpreted by various politicians, especially those running for the WH in ’08. My guess is the guy or gal who does the best job in that interpretation wins.

So I’m back to the point of my post. We need to do what is necessary to first control our borders. If we don’t, if we continue to allow this level of illegal immigration to continue, we’ll never be able to take the time necessary to put together a rational and workable reform program for immigration. With control of our borders we’ll have the luxury of time (and a less hostile citizenry) with which to actually do the immigration question right.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
McQ!
Ah, businesses. No work without their demand.

Suddenly it isn’t so implausible when you consider the problem in that light. While still a sea, it is a sea in which the "drops" could potentially lose everything they’ve worked for.

A few raids, a few huge fines, a little jail time in a couple of high visibility cases and suddenly the market for illegals begins to dry up. It is no longer worth the relative savings illegals bring them.
The only similarity between cocaine and labor in the US is that demand exceeds supply. Other than that, as you’ve pointed out, there are lots of differences. But as we see here, your prescription to "solve" the problem is identical; absolutely no different than the drug warriors prescription (or the alcohol warriors before them) whatsoever.

No offense dude, but your prescription just doesn’t have much of a successful track record anytime, or anywhere—except, perhaps, in certain totalitarian millitary dictatorships, where the state control over the populace is, well, total. If you’re going to take up the banner of "more of the same," maybe you should first address why "the same" is obviously failing, and why more of it will succeed, without resorting to the tautology that it’s not enough.

yours/
peter.
 
Written By: Peter Jackson
URL: http://www.liberalcapitalist.com
But as we see here, your prescription to "solve" the problem is identical; absolutely no different than the drug warriors prescription (or the alcohol warriors before them) whatsoever.
But whereas putting thousands of coke heads in jail won’t make a dent (see addictive qualities of substance), put a few business owners in the old jailhouse (or to make even more of an impression, fine them until they lose whatever economic advantage to hiring illegal labor they previously gained) and an entirely different phenomenon will take place.

You see, there is a viable substitute for illegal labor ...
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
Yes, let’s talk about Israel’s fence; I’m a big fan of it. For starters, it would barely wrap around Los Angeles county. But most importantly: is that what you really want on the southern border of the US? Machine gun nests, land mines, high voltage, watch towers full of sharp-shooters? And even Israel lets thousands of Palestinians cross to work in Israel every day. I find this suggestion ludicrous. Jesus, Israel is trying to protect themselves from suicide bombers with their fence. You want to spend God knows how many additional $billions to protect us from... illegal roofers. Are we trying to redefine "hysterical" or what?
All this after you condemn me for hyberpole. Hysterical. The wall is a wall. That’s it. It’s not a fortress. If you don’t believe me, Google’s your friend. I even visited several sites which describe it as the "Apartheid Wall" just to be sure.
If national sovereignty depended on a nations’ ability to keep individuals from crossing their border for one reason or another, then the only sovereign nations in this world are North Korea, Cuba, and possibly Israel.
Well, obviously it’s not the only necessary ingredient, but now that the Mexican Army and it’s drug smuggling compatriots are taking routine vacations here, I’d say our sovereignty is looking a little lessened as of late.
And by the way, I was being allegorical with the lettuce thing. In reality we would be looking at the price of just about everything going up, from food to housing.
I suppose slave labor is better, huh? Even if your beloved amnesty plan actually works (which it won’t; Reagan tried it already, remember?), wages will still rise.
 
Written By: Jordan
URL: http://
Well I’m certainly willing to give you any benefit of the doubt, but at the same time I’ve never encountered even one anti-immigrationist that was even aware of how many Canadians are here illegally, much less how many Europeans.
That’s laughable. Maybe it’s because the numbers are vastly different? Or perhaps you can give us those numbers, because I’m sure they’re widely available, right? If not, then kindly point me in the direction of the nearest Home Depot with dozens of Canadians loitering around or the Canadian equivalent of La Raza. What’s that? You can’t? How about the nearest rally with more Canadian flags than American flags? No luck there either, huh? Well then knock off your pathetic cries of bigotry.
 
Written By: Jordan
URL: http://
Hey, does anyone know if Mexico has border control between itself and South America? I think it does.......
 
Written By: martie
URL: http://
If all illegal aliens are legalized, then all that any alien has to do is successfully cross the border into the USA and then they have all the attributes of a US citizen after that. If all the people, all over the world who want to do that were to start doing it, imagine what would happen? There are people and countries in this world that are a hundred times poorer than the latin american countries. What is the point of having any immigration laws, the INS and the US borders at all in that case?

Aside from that a few anecdotes: Hepatitis A was largely unknown just a few years ago in the USA. Same with Typhoid, Tuberculosis, and a large number of other infectious diseases.

Oh and another point nobody considers the limited resources of clean drinking water, clean air and land and the increasing pressure of the increasing number of people in this country on the environment and the natural resources. One of the reasons this country is so great is because of there was an abundance of natural resource wealth per capita; another reason: the import of immigrant intellect. Yes hard work played a part initially when the number of people was small but now that situation has changed. At the rate the population in the US is exploding, it will be very hard to maintain the standard of living in this country.

Of course the politicians won’t do any thing to implement the immigration laws on illegal aliens because they are tied to the legal immigrants and recent naturalized citizens by family ties, cultural ties and other ties. Therfore they do not want to alieniate a large voting block. By the way the largest legal immigrant group in the US is Mexicans.

 
Written By: Sunny
URL: http://
I like the one sign I saw which read, "What part of illegal don’t they understand". My son served over in Iraq twice for other peoples rights and yet he is frustrated because he can’t do anything to protect our rights in our own country.

Right outside of Camp Pendleton our government spent money on signs along our freeway with pictures of a man, woman, and child running. This is to slow Americans down so they don’t hit the illegals. This is insane.

I served in the Marine Corps also. My family is all for Immigrants, just not illegal immigrants. I’m tired of these illegals taking from all of us hard working Americans. They keep saying they are what is keeping our country going because they are willing to do jobs we don’t want to do. An American teenager can’t even get a job at any fast food restaurant because all the illegals have taken the jobs from them.

I’m tired of working for my paycheck and then seeing all these illegals in line at the grocery store using food stamps. Which our government made that easier for them by making ATM Cards to use so it’s not so noticable as to who is on welfare. Welfare is the reason these illegals are comming across the boarder. They know they can get everything for nothing.

Our politicians don’t want to stop them from being here because then who would be their maids, babysitters and gardeners.

You teachers should be all for the wall. I hear you complain all the time about over crowded classrooms. Stop the illegals and that will definately free up space in our classrooms.

I am willing to go give my time to build the boarder. We have Habitat for Humanity to build homes. Let’s start a group AFAR (Americans for American’s Rights) to volunteer to build a wall.
 
Written By: Shannon
URL: http://
Anyone who doesn’t think these illegals are a problem I invite you to visit California. Choose a city, any city and take your family for a nice leasurely walk in the early evening. Tell me you feel safe. These illegals think they own everything. They can break any law and get away with it.

Recently the Mexicans did a march on our public streets and even attempted to march onto the freeway onramps. The police officers just stood by watching. If the White, Black or Asian population did this we would be sited and/or arrested because it is just not acceptable.

Almost all of our cities have a street that the illegals hangout on in order to get picked up as day laborers. Where is the INS. Why aren’t they going there with buses to pick them up and send them home. What are these people at the boarder patrol recieving paychecks for? Instead of sending the illegals back our city installed port-a-johns for them.

 
Written By: Shannon
URL: http://
Those stupid wetbacks need to quit whining!!.. IF they want to live here then get here the right way!!... I don’t know why the boarder control doesn’t just shoot those cock suckers that try to cross the boarder!!. Bunch of wetback whining babies!!!!

westernarabiansx@aol.com
AIM: westernarabiansx
 
Written By: Jana
URL: http://

 
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