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Commentary
Posted by: Jon Henke on Tuesday, May 16, 2006

If you think video of a plane hitting the Pentagon will make 9/11 conspiracy theorists re-think their conspiracy theories. . .well, you don't know conspiracy theorists.

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There's been a lot of discussion about whether Karl Rove will, as Truthout alleges, actually be indicted soon. It's an interesting drama, but I've resisted the urge to weigh in on it for a couple reasons. First, the Plame case and its ancillary issues are hopelessly complicated and I've nothing to say that other, more attentive observers, couldn't say better. Nor do I have any particular insight into whether Jason Leopold is an intrepid reporter, a gullible messenger or a dirty liar.
"il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un advisor pour encourager les autres"
The second point, however, is that I'm just not that concerned about whether Rove will be indicted, go to jail, etc. I've no particular antipathy towards Mr Rove, mind you — at least, no more than towards any other politico. However, operating on the general idea that "il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un advisor pour encourager les autres", I'm perfectly happy to see politicos indicted, frog-marched, shackled or otherwise tarred and feathered.

After all, as Thomas Jefferson said, "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Jefferson also said that the "tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants", though I'm sure he would have also approved of the tree of liberty being sprinkled with the indictments of politicians.

Divider



Glenn Greenwald has discovered angry Republicans. Discussing Bush's "rage-fueled base", he cites numerous bloggers and pundits and their "growing dissatisfaction with Bush". Monday, he described how the Right is moving against the "weakened, ready-to-be-tossed aside failure, George Bush".

So I guess this means the weakened, ready-to-be-tossed aside Authoritarian Cultist theory has outlived its usefulness.

UPDATE: "Glasnost" brings up a good point, and I want to pull it and my answer from the comments:
It’s amazing to me, John, that BDS is a point of religion around here, and yet you’re going so far out of your way to pretend that there isn’t a parallel tendency on the right wing.
I’m afraid you’re confusing the comments of readers for my own commentary. I’ve not levelled the "BDS" charge, and I happen to think it’s more akin to calling "Godwins law!" than to any persuasive argument. It’s a rhetorical dodge, designed to end arguments and malign persons, rather than advance understanding.

I have, however, written about the tendency Greenwald describes. Essentially, I believe that people have a natural tendency to become defensively loyal to their "team". That applies equally to the party in power and to the party out of power. The reflexive anti-left and the reflexive anti-Bush movements are psychologically related. In my opinion.
 
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Previous Comments to this Post 

Comments
They didn’t. It could be tagged with anything. For example...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/16/pentagon.video/index.html?indigentbloggerdidit
Try it.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Jon, your link has the tag on it. Perhaps you should remove it.
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
ah, that’s cool. Thanks for that.
 
Written By: Indigent Blogger
URL: http://vagabondia.blogspot.com
Good point. I followed the link from SayAnything, so I musta copied it as he had it, too. I’ll change that. Thanks.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Jon,

This regular flog-and-poke-Glenn-Greenwald game is getting a bit tiresome. The man, despite all his eloquence and experience arguing as a litigator, is a BDS suffering hack who regularly molds "facts" to fit the thesis. We get it!

Now just leave him to stew in his own juices.
 
Written By: D
URL: http://
Right is moving against the "weakened, ready-to-be-tossed aside failure, George Bush".
More of that is what we need, for whatever my disagreements with Pres. Bush are, I’ll always rally to his side against snide, overly-righteous pieces of drek like that.

A "weakened, ready-to-be-tossed aside failure, George Bush" is still better than any Democrat any day.


 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
This regular flog-and-poke-Glenn-Greenwald game is getting a bit tiresome. The man, despite all his eloquence and experience arguing as a litigator, is a BDS suffering hack who regularly molds "facts" to fit the thesis. We get it!
I "poke" him, because I think he’s a smart guy with a lot of useful stuff to say. It’s just that he also seems to look for some overarching theory of everything to explain disagreement, rather than simply addressing the ideas. That’s not useful and it takes away from the valuable commentary he writes.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
He is destroying his base on the whole immigration issue. Put up a 2,000 mile fence or say goodbye to a large portion of his support. Many of his supporters also want the illegals kicked out, which he seems unwilling to support.
 
Written By: Shawn
URL: http://politicalcritic.com
Jon, like a lot of theories attempting to investigage purely sociological events and trends, the Authoritarian Cultist theory is hard to pin down. But in my version of it, anyway, you’re shooting at a straw man.

The conservative base hasn’t suddenly decided that George Bush has concentrated too much power, is moving too recklessly, isn’t being democratic, etc. etc. They’re dissapointed with his unwillingness to fullfill their Authoritarian Cult of Destiny. He’s not jailing journalists who publish leaks left and right. He’s not building a wall on the Mexican border and deporting Mexicans en masse. He’s not "cutting government spending" by eliminating with executive orders massively popular social programs. He hasn’t bombed Iran yet.

This is far from an invalidation of Authoritarian cultism. It’s a demonstration that Authoritarian Cultism is not based specifically around Bush, but around a desire to see one’s rigid point of view imposed on one’s country by the most forceful means possible - with a corollary that this involves using overwhelming govenrment power with, let’s say, minimal regard for the law.

What this does demonstrate, however, is either a) Bush isn’t really interested in going all the way to dictatorship or b) he has a better sense of political realities than the Cultists, and he doesn’t think it could work.

I’ll give Bush the benefit of the doubt and say both a) and b).

The problem with Bush’s reign is that even if he personally doesn’t strive to be a dictator, his management and oversight skills are so poor that he has allowed his government to take steps towards that position.

 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
It’s amazing to me, John, that BDS is a point of religion around here, and yet you’re going so far out of your way to pretend that there isn’t a parallel tendency on the right wing. I expect that from blind partisans with a stake in the issue and people who hate Democrats and don’t/can’t think clearly: your intelligent, factually-based posts have led me to tentatively conclude that you’re not either of those.

From a systemic point of view, it doesn’t even make sense that you’d be seeing these tendencies from one side of the political spectrum, and not on the other. Everything about US politics is cyclic and systemic. All popular trends are more similar than they are different. Everything’s been seen before.

Do you really think that Republicans by virtue of their universally superior character, are immune to the irrational hatred we hear is being rolled in by Democrats (And, I might add, looking at polls, independents)? (Please note, I know what the peanut gallery thinks here, so bring it on, prove my point, not that you haven’t already done so in spades).

If you aren’t ready to say that above, than it’s not very far to see that Republican irrational hatred in its current stage is being demonstrated as Authoritarian Cultism. It’s just being more specific.

Glenn may not have defined his parameters as carefully as ideal, but he’s right.
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
I don’t think the Authoritarian Cultist theory has run it’s course yet.
Rather, it is a moment like just after 9/11 .. we are all Democrats now

LOL
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
It’s amazing to me, John, that BDS is a point of religion around here, and yet you’re going so far out of your way to pretend that there isn’t a parallel tendency on the right wing.
I’m afraid you’re confusing the comments of readers for my own commentary. I’ve not levelled the "BDS" charge, and I happen to think it’s more akin to calling "Godwins law!" than to any persuasive argument. It’s a rhetorical dodge, designed to end arguments and malign persons, rather than advance understanding.

I have, however, written about the tendency Greenwald describes. Essentially, I believe that people have a natural tendency to become defensively loyal to their "team". That applies equally to the party in power and to the party out of power. The reflexive anti-left and the reflexive anti-Bush movements are psychologically related. In my opinion.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Did anyone see the plane in the video? (N.B.: I am NOT claiming that no plane hit the Pentagon.) It looked like it was a surveillance video operating at 1 frame per second. In 1 second, Flight 77 would have travelled about 800 ft. So, it would be almost impossible to see anything but a blur.

You’re right, Jon: it won’t quiet the conspiracy theorists. Even if the video had been taped at 60 frames per second and we saw the terrorists waving at the camera as the plane slammed into the Pentagon, the conspiracy theorists would simply claim the video had been altered to fit the evil neocon cabal’s bogus "official" story.

It’s fun to be a conspiracy theorist, because you can make any claim you want at any time. I see it in the Kennedy assassination conspiracy buffs: they used to claim that the Zapruder film was iron-clad proof of at least one other shooter (and thus a conspiracy), but now that the Zapruder film has been shown to uphold the Single Bullet Theory, conspiracy buffs are claiming the film was modified while still in the developing lab.
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://steverino.jounalspace.com/
Perestroika,
Do you really think that Republicans by virtue of their universally superior character, are immune to the irrational hatred we hear is being rolled in by Democrats
Yeah, and do you still beat your wife!?

Seriously, I certainly expect that when the tables turn and the Dems. are back in power (and they will be someday; this year, in a few decades or sometime in between) you will see plenty of "DDS" going the other way. That said, it does not excuse the anti-Bush rationalizations in juxtaposition to fact emanating from the port-side today. Call it BDS, call it cognitive dissonance, call it Borshcht Moskovy if you prefer. The name doesn’t change the fact that it’s all laughable and reflects more on those proffering it than those they lambaste.
 
Written By: D
URL: http://
I don’t know about Act, but Glasnost is a perfect example of AIN. Asinine Immature Name calling. In his sad twisted little world his fellow citizens whom he happens to have disagreements with are not merely wrong, No, they are all unhinged, evil fascistic extremists.
He, however, is not an extremist himself oh no, you can be sure he sees everything with the greatest of sagacity.
 
Written By: kyle N
URL: http://impudent.blognation.us/blog
Allow me to coin a phrase:

"The rush to wall"

It refers to the strange urgency felt by some to get a 2,000 mile wall up on the border without first having a meaningful debate and looking at each option.

Would it be so bad if we take 6 months to let these ideas percolate and then have the 2006 elections?

and for all you deportation buffs out there...you will be looking really bad when the media starts showing those buses full of crying women leaving the USA. A few more predicitions:

When deporting 12 million people, there will be mistakes and abuses. There will be an old woman who can’t speak English, but is a citizen or green card or whatever, but somehow still manages to be deported. There will be instances where people are somehow abused - and it will be news for weeks.

Again, I am for a fence and deportation, but ideally, you’d get some incentives togther to have the 12 million leave and then come back legally (at the end of the list not jumping the queue) rather than having trains packed with Mexican people being sent south.


 
Written By: Harun
URL: http://
When deporting 12 million people...
Dood, there ain’t gonna be any deportation of 12 million people, your totalitarian fantasies notwithstanding. That’s about equal to the entire populations of CT and NJ combined. Even Stalin wouldn’t be able to pull that off.
 
Written By: Manny Davis
URL: http://
**I’m afraid you’re confusing the comments of readers for my own commentary.**

I stand corrected.

**That said, it does not excuse the anti-Bush rationalizations in juxtaposition to fact emanating from the port-side today.**

**Hmmmm. I’ll agree with you that irrational biases are bad, and not confined to conservatives.**

**I don’t know about Act, but Glasnost is a perfect example of AIN. Asinine Immature Name calling. In his sad twisted little world his fellow citizens whom he happens to have disagreements with are not merely wrong, No, they are all unhinged, evil fascistic extremists.
He, however, is not an extremist himself oh no, you can be sure he sees everything with the greatest of sagacity.**


Physician, heal thyself.
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
He is destroying his base on the whole immigration issue........
You know what? The base will get over it come election time, I just don’t believe that the "base" is that rigid to make the same mistake (stay at home) again. 9/11 came from that (yeah Glasnost, yeah Pogue, yeah MK, I said it. You don’t like it too bad)the last time. I doubt the "base" wants to see the Dems in charge of anything of importance- in a position to repeal tax cuts, create a healthcare system, set Iraq policy, set Iran policy. The very thought makes me ill with anticipation.

And I’m sure it will for the "base" as well.

 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
"If you think video of a plane hitting the Pentagon will make 9/11 conspiracy theorists re-think their conspiracy theories. . .well, you don’t know conspiracy theorists."

Jon, you make a good but obvious point. One only need to consider all the footage available of the planes plowing into the WTC and the subsequent collapse of the buildings. That hasn’t slowed conspiracy nuts in the least.
 
Written By: the wolf
URL: http://gabbleratchet.blogspot.com
Am I disatisfied with the direction of the country, the leadership of President Bush and the Republicans???


CERTAINLY...


Does it mean I want a Democrat in charge?

HECK NO...

At most I want the Republicans to get a wake-up call, and stop acting like Democrats (ie SPEND, SPEND, SPEND.)
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
BTW - although I’m an ardent supporter of the President, I don’t believe I’ve ever been reflexively pro-Bush. I’ll state where I disagree with him on policy, and defend his policies when I agree with him.

I wont engage in personal attack, and will defend him against such tactics, because personal attacks are a waste of time.

Same thing with Rove, et al. If they did the crime, they should do the time. But we shouldn’t pre-suppose guilt, especially not without real evidence of a crime.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
Keith writes:
At most I want the Republicans to get a wake-up call, and stop acting like Democrats (ie SPEND, SPEND, SPEND.)
I have almost no reason to prefer Republicans over Democrats any more, and unless the Democrats nominate Sandinistas in ’06, that is how I will vote. The Republicans have not only lost the way on spending. They are no longer federalists.

I am squeamish on abortion, but The Partial Birth Abortion Ban, and the more federal abortion legislation they have in mind for this summer, are an assault on federalism. Ditto that insane mania when they passed the federal "Terri’s Law." Or the attempt, taken all the way to the SCOTUS, to tell Oregon that that state may not decide whether its physicians may provide assisted suicide relief to terminally ill patients by prescribing the indicated pharmaceuticals.(Unless you can tell me where in Article I Congress is authorized to legislate in areas of abortion, end -of-life decisions & etc; or explain to me how such legislation can seriously be claimed to fall within interstate commerce.) And don’t get me started on the terrorization of federal and state judges as a result of a lot of this hysteria, and slyly approved of by several GOP "statesmen."

Then there is the wildy expanded theory of Executive power Bush has embraced, and which "permits" him to violate any law he likes, as long as it touches on national security. This theory is so outrageous Bush is literlly on the run from the courts, which he knows will smack down his imperial, lawless notions.

Finally, Iraq. Whether it was justified in the first instance (and I think it was), that isn’t the issue. It is a debacle,and the fault for that lies with George Bush.

Nope, I’m squarely off the "Democrats would be worse" plantation. GOP populism is nearly the antithesis of libertarianism, and I’m done with it.
 
Written By: Mona
URL: http://
HECK NO...

At most I want the Republicans to get a wake-up call, and stop acting like Democrats (ie SPEND, SPEND, SPEND.)
Oh Keith. The republicans have been spending since time-immemorial (when they have control of the executive branch, that is)..Witness Reagan, Bush Sr and now the junior. The only difference is that they cut taxes (except Senior) without cutting spending, which is the same as raising taxes.....
 
Written By: Iva
URL: http://
Mona wrote:

"Then there is the wildy expanded theory of Executive power Bush has embraced, and which "permits" him to violate any law he likes, as long as it touches on national security."

And this is an idiotic lie, or, a laughable and delusional misrepresentation. There is no "expansion" of executive power in what he has done, what he has done has traditionally been done in wartime, and his administration’s doing it ends with the expiry of the AUMF and relates only to activities persuant to the AUMF.

I’ll worry if the Supreme Court says him nay and then his administration doesn’t follow through on the nay.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
I don’t mean to cut of debate when I say that I think BDS is very real. And no, I don’t define it as simply "disagreeing with Bush".

I think it manifests as a willingness to believe virtually any claim or allegation against Bush, no matter how outlandish or devoid of evidence, as long as its reflects negatively upon him. It seems a lot of the thinking on the Left these days takes a priori that Bush is stupid, evil, greedy, and racist. All else follows from this premise. Anything proposed or said by the Bush administration is first run through this filter - and by this means BDS sufferers divine the "real motivation" for said proposal.

So it’s impossible for these people to even begin to see the issues fairly and reasonably. Invoking BDS doesn’t cut off debate;; it’s an acknowledgement that debate has already be rendered impossible.
 
Written By: equitus
URL: http://
Then there is the wildy expanded theory of Executive power Bush has embraced, and which "permits" him to violate any law he likes, as long as it touches on national security.

Sort of like the wildly expanded theory of intoxication that certain individuals have embraced, and which "permits’ them to violate any law they like, as long as it touches on getting stoned out of their minds.

(Note: Before any fits are pitched, I’m for legalization.)
 
Written By: Achillea
URL: http://
Glasnost
BDS is a point of religion around here, and yet you’re going so far out of your way to pretend that there isn’t a parallel tendency on the right wing
Wait wait wait ... is anybody actually claiming that there’s no RW parallel to BDS? Claiming it explicitly, I mean. Or is this one of those "evidence of absence" things?

Mona
I’m squarely off the "Democrats would be worse" plantation. GOP populism is nearly the antithesis of libertarianism, and I’m done with it.
You sound just like me, two years ago, as I was holding my nose and getting ready to vote for Kerry. It did not feel good. Now we pass, moving in opposite directions. I’m "wastefully" voting my Libertarian conscience NEXT time, because, frankly, I can’t stand the way it felt not to, last time.
Or so I say now, in 2006. By 2008, I might be ready to write in Cthulhu, because I’m sick of voting for the lesser of two evils, and expect to be even more sick of it by then.

 
Written By: Stoop Davy Dave
URL: http://
Mr Perkins
There is no "expansion" of executive power in what he has done,
On November 1st 2001, that argument became untenable.

Mr Equitus
... BDS is very real ... it manifests as a willingness to believe virtually any claim or allegation against Bush, no matter how outlandish or devoid of evidence, as long as its reflects negatively upon him. ...
My inbox is filled with evidence of the truth of your assessment. But that’s not to say that Mr Glasnost is wrong. Somebody else might have an inboxful of evidence of ... damn, what’s the antinym for "BDS"? The RW version of the same problem, I mean.
I don’t doubt that such a mirror-image problem exists; I find evidence of it here and there. But I wonder about how widespread it is, relative to BDS. And I wonder if there’s any way of measuring these things.
 
Written By: Stoop Davy Dave
URL: http://
"On November 1st 2001, that argument became untenable."

You assert and do not demonstrate.

Jimmy Carter, for example, claimed much of the same authority that George Bush does and other executives have otherwise claimed the remainder, where’s the expansion?

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
Mr Accurate
You assert and do not demonstrate.
Such is my way; I’m extraordinarily lazy. Something happened on that day ... or maybe the 11th ... damn, it had a "1" in it, anyway, that date. 10th? 1st? Anyway whatever it was, it was in November of 2001, so don’t worry, by this time it probably doesn’t even count any more.
 
Written By: Stoop Davy Dave
URL: http://
9/11 is not at issue Dave, whether any other course than the status quo—not confronting AlQaeda as fully as we might—became untenable is. Also at issue is whether President Bush has exercised expanded wartime executive powers to an unprecedented or unusual degree.

He hasn’t.

Try to answer the actual issue, not blow smoke.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
9/11 is not at issue Dave
And November 1st doesn’t fall in September, in that or any year, either.
at issue is whether President Bush has exercised expanded wartime executive powers to an unprecedented or unusual degree.
There’s no way of knowing whether he has exercised the expanded executive power that he awarded himself on November 1st 2001. That’s the nature of the e.e.power in question. It’s hard to believe that he would expand it and then not exercise it, though, and it’s known with certainty that he expanded it.
Drat! I thought I’d have this embed-a-linky thing worked out by now. But if so, it doesn’t show up in preview. Sigh. Maybe it will come through on the posted copy.
 
Written By: Stoop Davy Dave
URL: http://
Bah. Anyway, here’s the link in text format. Harrumph.
http://archives.his.com/intelforum/2001-November/msg00006.html
 
Written By: Stoop Davy Dave
URL: http://
"And November 1st doesn’t fall in September, in that or any year, either."

True, it’s just that you made no mention of why November was important and I have no reason to think you’re competent to write what you mean say.

This is from the linked document that you think is relevant:
"Thousands of pages of records from the Reagan Administration were to
become public earlier this year under the Presidential Records Act, the
first effective release of documents due to that 1978 law.

But the Bush Administration resisted implementation of that law,
invoking a 1989 executive order to assert its right to review the
records prior to release and to assert constitutionally based privileges
against disclosure.
What "happened" on Nov. 1, 2001, is irrelevant to this discussion. Even if it were relevant to anything relating to Bush’s use of the usual wartime executive powers, do you imagine there would be no leaks of such dastardly doings as you are certain Bush is doing?

You aren’t only lazy, you are a moron. Or you didn’t think I’d look at the link?

Or do you think the other posts there are relevant somehow?

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
What "happened" on Nov. 1, 2001, is irrelevant to this discussion.
Earlier in the discussion, you claimed that
There is no "expansion" of executive power in what he has done
That’s false, because he unilaterally expanded his power to keep executive documents secret, as illustrated in the link that I posted.
What "happened" on Nov. 1, 2001, is irrelevant to this discussion.
Up until the moment that you made the claim you made, that was true. After that, not.
Even if it were relevant to anything relating to Bush’s use of the usual wartime executive powers, do you imagine there would be no leaks of such dastardly doings as you are certain Bush is doing?
Non sequitur. I haven’t accused him of dastardly doings; I’ve accurately stated that he has expanded the executive powers of his office.
You aren’t only lazy, you are a moron. Or you didn’t think I’d look at the link?
I figured you’d look at the link, note that it contradicts your overstated claim, and save yourself the embarassment of trying to salvage it. Did I give you too much credit? Seemingly so.
Or do you think the other posts there are relevant somehow?
Actually I’m too lazy to have checked those out. Any funny ones in there?
 
Written By: Stoop Davy Dave
URL: http://
BZZZZ!

You’ve screwed up again:
There is no "expansion" of executive power in what he has done
is written in relation to this from Mona:
"wildy expanded theory of Executive power Bush has embraced"
And this is not a wild expansion; in fact, if legal at all, he always had the power to do so, hence, it is not an expansion at all.
"I haven’t accused him of dastardly doings"
The entirety of this subthread relates to Mona accusing Bush of dastardly doings. What did you think we were talking about?
"note that it contradicts your overstated claim"
And as I’ve shown, it doesn’t contradict me at all.
"Actually I’m too lazy to have checked those out. Any funny ones in there?"
No, but there’s plenty of yours here.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
Oh, and Stupe,

You may not be aware, but legally, Executive Orders are accorded the status of the very lowest level possible of legally binding instructions. They are binding only on the employees of the executive, and any statute and court ruling instantly an fully overturns one.

So it’s s fairly weak implementation of executive power even as it stands.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
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