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See, we disagree about stuff!
Posted by: Dale Franks on Wednesday, May 17, 2006

Here's a perfect example of an issue where the QandO bloggers disagree with each other.

As I've stated before, my opposition to illegal immigration has nothing whatsoever to do with economic arguments. Indeed, if you could show me that illegal immigration was a positive boon to the United States, I'd still be against it. And comments like the one I addressed here, explain why.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with economics, and everything to do with preserving the traditional ideological vision of America. As I stated previously, "I wouldn't particularly care if 7,000,000 Mexicans came to the US every year, as long as they determined to become Americans when they got here. But, when they carry signs that declare themselves to hold primary allegiance to Mexico, and asserting that the Southwestern US should revert to Mexican sovereignty...well...that pisses me off. I didn't spend a decade on active duty wearing my country's uniform in order...to drag a quarter of the country back into Mexican misrule. At the end of the day, what matters isn't the country you come from. All that matters is the country to which you owe your allegiance. If that is a country other than the United States of America, then you should be in that country, not here."

And speaking about returning the Southwest to Mexican sovereignty, have doubt about it, this is what would result. Mexico is one of the most corrupt, least effectively ruled countries in the Western Hemisphere.

Additionally, the previous waves of immigration, whether Italians, Irish, or German, were, for the most part, one time waves. The major difference now is that the wave of illegals is a never-ending stream. Whatever dislocations that resulted from previous waves of immigration—quite apart from the fact that those waves were of legal immigrants—were temporary. The current dislocations are not temporary. They are ongoing and increasing.

And unless we are willing to stress assimilation, those problems will not stop.

You can prattle on about the economic benefits of "immigration" all you want. But, since the primary concerns over illegal immigration are not, primarily, economic, I simply don't find them compelling. Human beings are not, as some imply, nothing more than homo economicus, people for whom economics are the primary motivators. Economic argument are important in many contexts, but they do not encapsulate the sole range of motivations to which human beings give primary importance.

When grupos like MEChA and La Raza stop talking about la Requonquista and marching with Mexican flags, then maybe I'll revise my opinion. Until then, I will regard them as "fifth columnists" of a foriegn power, rather than Americans who are keen to seek social justice.

Now, hopefully, Jon will respond with some nasty personal invective, to which I can respond in kind. I think that would make the blog so much more interesting to our readers.
 
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Now, hopefully, Jon will respond with some nasty personal invective, to which I can respond in kind. I think that would make the blog so much more interesting to our readers.

Well, can’t one or the other of you furiously demand that the other leave, since one or the other of you will not tolerate dissent on the issue of immigration, and then start a blog fight over it that gets picked up and parsed to the nth degree at other blogs? I know I’d like to see that sort of excitement at this otherwise milquetoast site. :)

But seriously Dale. I totally agree with you that assimilation is crucial. And I oppose most of the multi-culti nonsense that abounds. But as to the flag business, my Irish forebears carried both Irish and American flags in their anti-Know-Nothing marches and stuff. Still do on St. Patrick’s Day in NYC.

The Reconquista notion is silly, and if I believed it was anything but the feverish ranting of a few far leftist nutjobs, I’d be worried. But the millions of poor slobs coming over here to nanny our tots and pick our produce are not animated by a desire to retake Texas. They want to feed their families. Hell, increasingly they settle in and vote Republican.

If they are willing to accept our civil "religion" as contained in such foundational "sacred texts" as the Declaration and the Bill of Rights, I have no problem with their living and working here. And I’m aware of no evidence that the vast majority reject those things.
 
Written By: Mona
URL: http://
It’s a shame that you’ve suddenly decided to throw economics out the window, since applying it here might help you think beyond step one. As it stands now, immigration to the US has prohibitive transaction costs, which means that the people most likely to cross the border are those most eager to leave. This will tend to disproportionately mean young, rootless males — exactly the kind of demographic most receptive to fanatical groups. If you’re worried about groups like MEChA, the correct response might well be freer migration.
 
Written By: Matt McIntosh
URL: http://catallarchy.net/blog/
Well, can’t one or the other of you furiously demand that the other leave, since one or the other of you will not tolerate dissent on the issue of immigration, and then start a blog fight over it that gets picked up and parsed to the nth degree at other blogs?
Alas, no. All three of us are co-equal bloggers. Although, at the end of the day, since I host the blog on my servers, I could temporarily shut down the blog, Jon owns the domain, and he could simply move it to some other web host. And, that would be inconvenient for everybody. It’s a lot easier to snipe at each other, and keep the blog more or less as it is.

And a lot more fun, too.

Seriously, I think the three of us accept that, while we’ll never be in perfect agreement on everything, the QandO Blog is greater than the sum of all our parts. We make fun of each other, in the blog and on the podcast, but QandO is a really valuable forum, and, unless Jon wishes to simply drive everybody else away, all of us would prefer to stay here, air our disagreements—such as they are—publicly, and let the readers decide.
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
"...those most eager to leave" should read "most eager to leave their homes," for the sake of clarity.
 
Written By: Matt McIntosh
URL: http://catallarchy.net/blog/
If you’re worried about groups like MEChA, the correct response might well be freer migration.
Or, alternatively, allow MEChA to encourage more immigration of people who are more sympathetic to their aims.
As it stands now, immigration to the US has prohibitive transaction costs, which means that the people most likely to cross the border are those most eager to leave.
And, yet, oddly, they aren’t leaving, which strikes me as a fundamental refutation of your argument
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
"...those most eager to leave" should read "most eager to leave their homes," for the sake of clarity.
Oh. OK. To which I would reply, "And...?"

Their eagerness to leave their homes, and their eagerness to become Americans do not necessarily equate to the same thing.

I wonder, would you be making the same arguments if Islamic radicals made up the primary component of illegal immigrants?

I doubt it.
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
I would have the same position about the Mexican invasion if instead it was hundreds of thousands of white french speaking people from Quebec who were streaming over the Canadian border into the United States. It’s not about race or fleeing economic depravity, it’s about defending one’s cultural identity. I would prefer that America remain a mostly white, english speaking, judeo-chrisitian
culture. American culture has given birth to the modern world, everything that
we take advantage of, telecomunications, air-travel, television, space travel,
the internet, literaly everything, was created or pioneered by the US. And yes,
immigrants to this country were helpful in making this a possiblity, but it was the best and the brightest. I just don’t see how it could even remotely be in the best interst of America to import poor, uneducated, low skilled people into this country. And the very notion of a guest worker program, harkens back to the age
of indentured servitude or worse.
 
Written By: Radical Centrist
URL: http://
Why do you want them to become Americans? What’s wrong with them just coming to work for a while and then going back home?

And since when do "radicals" represent the "primary compnent" of Mexican immigrants?
 
Written By: Matt McIntosh
URL: http://catallarchy.net/blog/
Anyone who uses phrases like "Mexican invasion" to describe this situation immediately disqualifies themselves from adult discussion. Let’s keep a level head here, can we?
 
Written By: Matt McIntosh
URL: http://catallarchy.net/blog/
Oh, and this: "Or, alternatively, allow MEChA to encourage more immigration of people who are more sympathetic to their aims."

Is not very likely. There’s very little evidence to suggest that many Mexicans share their goals, and freer immigration would probably hurt their membership at the margins by increasing economic opportunity for young immigrants and encouraging alternate forms of community within the immigrant population. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to conjecture that groups like MEChA are in a large part emotional substitutes for more benign forms of community and activism.
 
Written By: Matt McIntosh
URL: http://catallarchy.net/blog/
Matt McIntosh:

They don’t go back home, they stay and their families join them and they multiply.
Why do you think we have had mass amnesties in the last 30 years.

And I don’t know, what would you call, millions upon millions of people streaming into the territory of the United States illegally, year after year, depressing wages, putting a strain on our social welfare system and parading in our streets by the millions, declaring that this land is stolen land and demanding rights that they don’t have! And what do you think would be the practical effect of this situation continuing for, oh let’s see 20 more years. It would make us a country more resembling Mexico than our current anglospheric identity. I don’t want that to happen! For good or for ill this country was creatied by colonizers, or invaders if you want to be vulger, not immigrants. If the founders of this country were immigrants we would be speaking some indian dialect and not english.
 
Written By: Radical Centrist
URL: http://
What’s wrong with them just coming to work for a while and then going back home?
They don’t.
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
And if you make becoming a citizen an easy pass - THIS will be home.
And if you don’t close the border, there’ll be a lot more ’citizens’ to deal with.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
"They don’t."

Not so much now, no. I’m suggesting that laissez-faire with regard to migration would likely encourage more of that kind of "commuting" rather than the formation of a permanent underclass, which is what the current restrictive policy accomplishes.
 
Written By: Matt McIntosh
URL: http://catallarchy.net/blog/
Matt McInstosh:

What happens when they are amnestied, they becom part of the modern welfare state.
They are then intitled to services that are reserve for American citizens.
What do you think will happen if 11-20 million people are put online, it will banktrupt an already banktrupt system.
 
Written By: Radical Centrist
URL: http://
Actually in all probability this would financially strengthen rather than weaken the system, since Social Security and Medicare make up the overwhelming bulk of those entitlements and if I’m right most Mexican migrants wouldn’t stay to collect those. Even under the current system they’re pretty much a wash as far as how much they put in vs take out. Obviously this sort of thing is difficult to predict for sure, but if you really want to be sure about it I would have nothing against barring them from recieving entitlements until they’ve lived X number of years and become full citizens.

In any case, I think free migration actually would help reign in the welfare state, which another reason to support it as far as I’m concerned. Consider the free immigration that currently exists between American states: there’s a good argument to be made that the reason state-level entitlement programs are in general less of a disaster than federal ones is that they’re kept in check by the possibility of interstate migration. If a state has more indulgent and generous welfare programs, they’ll attract indigents from abroad, swelling the welfare rolls and increasing costs. The same principle applied at the national level could concievably contribute to greater discipline in the federal welfare state.
 
Written By: Matt McIntosh
URL: http://catallarchy.net/blog/
Dale,
Grant them citizenship or kick them out. And don’t expect them to like you - you offer them sh*t jobs for sh*t money and call them criminals for doing the work you pay them for. To them you are an aggogant bunch of snobs who think them not good enough to join your club.

Some of them want to take charge of the land (Requonquista) so they can do the same thing to you - imitation the sincerist form of flattery, be flattered.


American culture has given birth to the modern world, everything that
we take advantage of, telecomunications, air-travel, television, space travel,
the internet, literaly everything, was created or pioneered by the US.


Case in point - arrogantus Americamus.
 
Written By: Unaha-closp
URL: http://
...you offer them sh*t jobs for sh*t money.
Uh, I don’t think so, Angus ... they come here and take sh*t jobs for sh*t money. No one is forcing them to do it.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://qando.net
Unha, is it arrogant if it’s true?
 
Written By: Matt McIntosh
URL: http://catallarchy.net/blog/
"What’s wrong with them just coming to work for a while and then going back home?"

Not much, but the problem is that they don’t go back home. Why would they? The whole point of them coming here is to not be back home.

"freer immigration would probably hurt their membership at the margins by increasing economic opportunity for young immigrants and encouraging alternate forms of community..."

As Dale correctly pointed out, people are not motivated solely by economics. Much of the rhetoric of the reconquista types I have seen has nothing to do with economics.


"Case in point - arrogantus Americamus"
No, justifiable pride. Perhaps you are a bit envious or resentful?
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
I, for one, would not want to be a member of any blog whose other members always agreed with me however much I would nonetheless have to respect their good sense in doing so.

I’ve lived in Europe and seen enough of the social and cultural divisiveness of language there, and for that matter, as close as Canada to believe it is in the best interests of the U.S. to expect immigrants seeking any sort of permanent residence, and especially those seeking citizenship, to know English. Everything I have read on the subject, however, leads me to believe that this happens within several generations, so I am concerned only that we do not adopt policies that discourage that process.

I, too, much prefer the mixing bowl to the tossed salad theory of acculturation, but I suspect that, the lunatic left aside, so do most people living in this country, recent and prospective immigrants included.

I also agree with Mr. Franks that economics does not and cannot address all the important issues involved here. Life is not a business. On the other hand, economics is not only about monetary transactions – it is about evaluating and weighing and comparing competing preferences, especially including political and social preferences. Mr. Franks, for example, highly values what he calls “preserving the traditional ideological vision of America.” I do not so much disagree with him as not know what he means by that, so I won’t attempt to argue the point one way or the other. But if we’re all generally agreed that English should remain the predominant language in a U.S. that doesn’t cede any territory to Mexico, what else exactly is at stake?
 
Written By: D.A. Ridgely
URL: http://
Bruce, You offer and they take = job market.

Matt, Is it true, did Al Gore really invent TV?

Tim, I’m not, but I’m not emptying your garbage for a buck fifty an hour.
 
Written By: Unaha-closp
URL: http://
It would seem to me that if you were illegal, you would want to keep a low profile. Where I live, the illegal immigrants wear khaki work clothes and baseball caps, it makes them look the same. I think it keeps them invisible. If there are about 7,000,000, then the few that carry signs and the Mexica Flag are a very small percentage. I could not see that is being reprsentative. Has anyone talked to them, in their own environment.

I think it is the second generation that truly assimilates.
 
Written By: VRB
URL: http://
To them you are an aggogant bunch of snobs who think them not good enough to join your club.
Considering that this is a direct contravention to practically everything I’ve written, "what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
Ok, a simple no would have done just fine.
 
Written By: Unaha-closp
URL: http://
Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
Dang, Dale, I believe you are right. I think I will sue.
 
Written By: capt joe
URL: http://
"DISCLAIMER: The information and opinions expressed on this site are not necessarilly the opinions of the author and may be denied or disregarded at a later date. Reading of this paragraph constitutes as agreement on part of reader not to hold author responsible for any damaging effects resulting from reading and agreeing with anything printed on this site; furthermore reader waives all future claims resulting from changes in law which may render this disclaimer null and void. This disclaimer is valid in all states with the exception of those states which have laws forbidding the existence of this disclaimer, and in states where such laws exist the reader agrees to read this disclaimer in a state where this disclaimer is binding."
 
Written By: Unaha-closp
URL: http://
...offer them sh*t jobs for sh*t money and call them criminals for doing the work you pay them for.
Leaving aside the issue of employers - who ought to be prosecuted as the criminals they are...

If all this american economy has to offer is, "sh*t jobs for sh*t money", why do so many keep coming here?

(that was rhetorical for the logically impared)
 
Written By: bains
URL: http://
Rhetorical, meaning that you know why Mexicans are doing those jobs and Americans aren’t.
 
Written By: unaha-closp
URL: http://warisforwinning.blogspot.com/
A few comments:
And unless we are willing to stress assimilation, those problems will not stop.
I believe that a more open border policy would incentivize assimilation. A policy in which they’re technically illegal but practically overlooked will necessarily prevent assimilation. In other words, our current immigration policy is a major contributor to the very problem you want to solve. And for what it’s worth, I think assimilation—in both directions—is a worthwhile social goal, too.

In addition, though I am concerned about the political effects of mass immigration, I have serious reservations—practical and moral—about basing immigration policy on the politics of potential immigration. I’d consider it wrong to for politicians to vote to exclude immigrants because they’re worried they’d vote in a more individualistic, libertarian direction, so...
You can prattle on about the economic benefits of "immigration" all you want. But, since the primary concerns over illegal immigration are not, primarily, economic, I simply don’t find them compelling.
That should properly read "since MY primary concerns over illegal immigration are not, primarily, economic...". There are a wide variety of "primary concerns" postulated by various people interested in this issue. I "prattled on" about those concerns because facts matter and participants in this debate ought to be properly informed about what the research actually indicates, rather than what they simply assume to be the case.

In any event, you’ve previously indicated that you’re not terribly concerned about the economic arguments, so my economic arguments are not addressed towards you.
When grupos like MEChA and La Raza stop talking about la Requonquista and marching with Mexican flags, then maybe I’ll revise my opinion.
As far as that goes, I agree that it’s worth being aware of those groups. But, like Matt, I believe that a freer immigration policy would go a long way towards solving those feelings of alienation towards the US. In any event, I do not believe general social trends can be extrapolated from the fringe MECHA groups. There are KKK members in the South, too, but I don’t fear another confederate seccession.

Oh, and it seems you’re making contradictory arguments here. On one hand, in response to Matt saying these immigrants are leaving Mexico, you write "And, yet, oddly, they aren’t leaving [Mexico]". After that, when he suggests they "[come] to work for a while and then going back home?", you write that "they don’t."

You’re playing both sides here. Some of them do come to stay, while others come briefly and then go back home.
Now, hopefully, Jon will respond with some nasty personal invective, to which I can respond in kind.
Uh, your father smells of elderberry.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
In any event, you’ve previously indicated that you’re not terribly concerned about the economic arguments, so my economic arguments are not addressed towards you.
Then who are you trying to persuade? Only those who say illegals aren’t necessarily an economic asset? Are you conceding the field to those who argue in terms of assimilation or security?
Uh, your father smells of elderberry.
Your mother is a hampster.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://qando.net
Then who are you trying to persuade? Only those who say illegals aren’t necessarily an economic asset?
I posted the letter because I think it’s a valuable corrective to some of the economic misunderstandings involved. I didn’t address it to a specific person and, since he’s previously indicate insignificant interest in the economic arguments, I’m somewhat surprised that Dale seems to have taken it as a personal reproach.
Are you conceding the field to those who argue in terms of assimilation or security?
No, of course not. Did I write something indicating that? A post discussing the economic arguments is no more a concession of the cultural and security arguments than a post criticizing Howard Dean is an endorsement of John Kerry. When I do not address something, that should not be taken as a de facto endorsement of it.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Uh, your father smells of elderberry.
I believe it was ’smelt of elderberry’
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
No, its your uncle, the old salt, who smells of smelt.
 
Written By: D.A. Ridgely
URL: http://
Splitter!
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Additionally, the previous waves of immigration, whether Italians, Irish, or German, were, for the most part, one time waves. The major difference now is that the wave of illegals is a never-ending stream.
I doubt it, Dale. Take a look at the Mexican demographics stats. Their dependency ratio will soon resemble Europe’s more than it does ours.

A stream always looks never-ending when you’re in the middle of it.

My only concerns about the largest numbers of illegals are

1) security concerns
2) the social implications of a continuous stream of low-skill low-wage workers as a business plan. Demographics tells us that the next wave of immigrants will be very, very different than the current wave.

 
Written By: Dave Schuler
URL: http://www.theglitteringeye.com
"...but I’m not emptying your garbage for a buck fifty an hour."

Nobody is emptying anybody’s garbage for a buck fifty an hour in this country. That’s why they come here.


"I believe that a more open border policy would incentivize assimilation. A policy in which they’re technically illegal but practically overlooked will necessarily prevent assimilation"

And I don’t believe it. Touche.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Legitimate concerns about the impact of immigration on the poorest Americans should not be addressed by penalizing even poorer immigrants
Where’s the substance for this? How did we become responsible for everybody else’s poor? Are they saying we should effectively bear the cost of "empire" but not the benefits?

The implication is there’s a world wide ’RIGHT’ to immigrate to the United States, and that that right supercedes our soveringty.
And not once, have they mumbled the word "illegal" to distinguish the argument at hand. With a few exceptions here I don’t think any of the reasoned arguments are demanding we cease immigration into the United States.

From that standpoint the letter is nonsensical.
To steal their phrasing
While a small percentage of native-born Americans may be against ANY immigration
vastly more Americans understand we should continue to encourage it.

As a tool for disgarding the ’bad economics’ straw man the letter is fine.
But they didn’t need to tell us that, really, the fact that there are 10+ million, with more everyday, indicates the economics of the situation MUST be working out doesn’t it. That which has been demonstrated.

So, in reality, it states the obvious, and argues against something that most of us already concede should not be done in the first place.

To whit - immigration is a positive economic thing, and should not be prevented.

Now, how do they feel about ILLEGAL immigration?
Your mother is a hampster.
And isn’t it spelled hamster?

At least no one is threatening to make castanets out of anyone else’s testicles.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
And isn’t it spelled hamster?
Yes it is, but his mother is a hampster.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://qando.net
Nonsense. It is spelled "eye" "tee."
 
Written By: D.A. Ridgely
URL: http://
Yes it is, but his mother is a hampster.
Dale - "Can we come up and see the hampster?"

Jon - "No! You are Gringo types!"

Dale - "What are you then?"

Jon - "I’m Mexican.....why do you think I have this outrageous accent you silly blogger!"

McQ - "What are you doing in the US?"

Jon - "Mind your own business!
"You don’t frighten us Gringo anti-immigrationistas!
go and boil your bottoms, son of a silly person. I blow my nose on you...."
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
His mother is Jane Hampster? Of fire dog lake??
 
Written By: capt joe
URL: http://
When grupos like MEChA and La Raza stop talking about la Requonquista and marching with Mexican flags, then maybe I’ll revise my opinion. Until then, I will regard them as "fifth columnists" of a foriegn power, rather than Americans who are keen to seek social justice.
As I’ve posted elsewhere, there’s a Flat Earth Society too. But that doesnt’ mean we all should all strap on parachutes.

We have 40 million completely or almost completely assimilated legal Hispanics in this country. I live amongst many of them— even on my very street— here in Austin, Texas. We also have a 2.9% unemployment rate. Most of the poor hardworking souls that stream over the border (we have more than half of it) into Texas are completely culturally harmless and help keep our cost of living down.

yours/
peter.
 
Written By: Peter Jackson
URL: http://www.liberalcapitalist.com
I don’t know about cultural harmlessness....odd to go into a Wal-Mart and have the TV blare at me in Spanish instead of English - and I’m 3 hours norte of you.

Last time I checked we’re largely an English speaking culture, but more and more signage, TV broadcast and radio is in Spanish here in Tejas.

Call me a snob, I’d prefer not to HAVE to learn Spanish to get by in my own country. I try to be open minded, but let’s not get carried away.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
I don’t know about cultural harmlessness....odd to go into a Wal-Mart and have the TV blare at me in Spanish instead of English
The OUTRAGE.

Heh.

Lighten up.
Man, I go into shops all the time where they have hip-hop on the loudspeaker… I can’t understand any of it. Go figure.
Schnizzle with my dizzle
!?!
Umm. What does he want me to do?

The OUTRAGE.
When I was young, people spoke proper American. And young people had respect for their elders. Kid’s today. Nothing but sass.
.
 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
Last time I checked we’re largely an English speaking culture, but more and more signage, TV broadcast and radio is in Spanish here in Tejas.
Exclusively in Spanish ?? Nah...It is not true even in Kalifornia..Relax looker, this country is not going to be taken over by Spanish...Atleast for the next 20/30 years...But teach your kids Spanish, though. It’ll come in handy
 
Written By: Ivan
URL: http://
Sometimes watching TV news, the reporter could be anywhere in the world, like a village that was ravaged by the tsunami, and they can find someone that speaks a little English. I don’t like to feel that Americans are so offended by some one speaking Spanish. Most older people who speak Spanish would probably not learn English, because it is very difficult to learn any language when you are a certain age. The young people will be bilingual because the POP culture is in English.
 
Written By: VRB
URL: http://
Fifteen years or so ago I worked offshore with a drill crew from south Texas. At the time, I’d never been west of Houston. These were all redneck white boys, most with less than high school educations, and they were all, each and every one, completely bilingual. Once I asked the crew"s welder and mechanic, two Hispanic fellows who often conversed in Spanish, if the drill crew’s Spanish was any good, and he told me that they spoke completely fluent Mexican Spanish. Apparently Spanish is just something you pick up when you grow up in certain parts of south Texas. Being an English only speaker (I’ve long since forgotten the French they taught us in Louisiana schools), I’m still impressed.

yours/
peter.
 
Written By: Peter Jackson
URL: http://www.liberalcapitalist.com

 
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