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Jesse MacBeth’s - REAL- DD214
Posted by: McQ on Saturday, May 27, 2006

Perhaps this will finally put this sad chapter to bed once and for all. I, through some old connections, have managed to come up with the unaltered DD214 of Jesse MacBeth. This isn't a joke or some funny little photoshop gig. It is the actual, real DD214 of one Jesse Adam Macbeth. I have taken out the SSAN and NOK information for privacy reasons. As should be obvious after reading this, the DD214 Macbeth has posted has portions which have been crudely forged.

I'm going to put the two sections I've broken out in hidden excerpts because they're large files. I've posted the top half of the form and the bottom half of the form. I don't want to inconvenience those who have slow connections and/or really don't care.

The files are large because you have to blow them up to see clearly through the gray shading which is on the form.

When you see it, there will be no doubt that this is his real DD214. There are no "font" issues. There are no non-standard notations. It is a simple document showing the 30+ day service record of someone who wasn't around long enough to earn anything.

It shows that he lasted all of one month and 13 days in the Army. It also shows he that he never had a primary specialty nor any awards and decorations. None. It also shows he was an E1 when discharged.

Show/Hide

The bottom half of the form is just as revealing. Block 19 says "Service Member has not completed first full term of service". Block 24, as noted earlier, shows his service as "Uncharacterized" which is only given to those who are discharged as trainees. Block 25 is key. It shows he was discharged under the authority of AR 635-200 Chapter 11. That means he was found to be unfit to remain in the Army and was dicharged for the good of the service. Or as many have said, a boot camp washout. We've been through the code for discharge in the next block, but the narrative reason for his discharge is found in block 28, which says "Entry level performance and conduct", or, he couldn't cut it.

Show/Hide

My advice to Jesse Macbeth is to quit this now. It's over. It's all out for everyone to see. There is no other "truth" to come out which will save you and your story. Get some help, please.
 
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Comments
That jives with his "sister"’s story, that he was a fourth-week washout. I believe she is who she says now. One month and thirteen days; figure thirty days in training, and another thirteen-fourteen in "Casual" company being outprocessed. Getting out takes a lot of time and paperwork. I’m going through the process of getting ready to separate right now, but at least I’m getting out Honorable, re-enlistment code RE-1 with nine years of service. Unless twixt now and EAS I lose my frickin’ mind completely and pull a Macbeth. He’s established beyond a doubt that his head is filled with sawdust and bong water.
 
Written By: Russ
URL: http://beerbaitnammo.blogspot.com
MaBeth’s crimes are identical to United States of America Vs. Marvin Enoch Potter, Jr. and can be charged under 18 U.S.C. § 498 and 704. In addition he feasibly could be charged with § 2388. Activities affecting armed forces during war which states (a) Whoever, when the United States is at war, willfully makes or conveys false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States or to promote the success of its enemies.

His video inteview is a false report intended interfere with the conduct on the war in Iraq.
 
Written By: combat infantryman
URL: http://
I agree he should stop this charade immediately, but more importantly we should find out who put him up to this scam. Certainly this wasn’t fostered by him alone.He had to have some backing. Those people should be exposed for not only lying to the American people but also for aiding and abetting the enemy. That is serious.
 
Written By: Moose
URL: http://
Chapter 11
Entry Level Performance and Conduct
11–1. General
This chapter sets policy and provides guidance for the separation of soldiers because of unsatisfactory performance
and/or conduct while in entry-level status.
11–2. Basis for separation
Separation of a soldier in entry level status may be warranted on the grounds of unsatisfactory performance and/or
unsatisfactory conduct as evidenced by—
a. Inability.
b. Lack of reasonable effort.
c. Failure to adapt to the military environment.
d. Minor disciplinary infractions.
11–3. Separation policy
a. This policy applies to soldiers who—
(1) Enlisted in the Regular Army, ARNG, or USAR.
(2) Are in entry-level status, undergoing IET, and, before the date of the initiation of separation action, have
completed no more than 180 days of creditable continuous AD or IADT or no more than 90 days of Phase II under a
split or alternate training option. (See the glossary for precise definition of entry-level status.)
(3) Have demonstrated that they are not qualified for retention. The following conditions are illustrations of conduct
and/or performance that disqualify soldiers for retention:
(a) Cannot or will not adapt socially or emotionally to military life.
(b) Cannot meet the minimum standards prescribed for successful completion of training because of lack of aptitude,
ability, motivation, or self-discipline.
(c) Have demonstrated character and behavior characteristics not compatible with satisfactory continued service.
(4) Have failed to respond to counseling (DA Form 4856–R).
b. Enlisted women who become pregnant while still in entry-level status—
(1) Will be involuntarily separated under this chapter when the training activity commander with separation
authority, in conjunction with the medical officer (obstetrician), determines that they cannot fully participate in the
required training for the MOS concerned because of their physical condition.
(a) The training commander will furnish the training requirements to the obstetrician.
(b) Soldiers separated for pregnancy that occurred after entry on AD or IADT are entitled to maternity care in a
military medical facility only per AR 40–3.
(2) Will be retained when they can fully participate unless they request separation per chapter 8.
c. Nothing in this chapter precludes separation under another provision of this regulation when such separation is
warranted. For example, if homosexual conduct is involved, the case will be processed under chapter 15. However, if
separation of a soldier in entry-level status is warranted by reason of unsatisfactory performance (see chap 13) or
misconduct (minor disciplinary infractions (see para 14–12a), separation processing will be accomplished under this
chapter. As an exception, soldiers with less than 181 days of continuous active service who have completed IET, been
awarded an MOS, and been assigned to a follow-on unit for duty will be processed for discharge under the appropriate
chapter (chap 13 or 14 or another appropriate chapter).
11–4. Counseling and rehabilitation requirements
Counseling and rehabilitation requirements are essential when entry-level performance and conduct are the reason for
separation. Military service is a calling different from any civilian occupation, and a soldier should not be separated
when this is the sole reason for separation unless efforts at rehabilitation have failed. Before initiating separation
action, commanders will ensure that the soldier receives adequate counseling and rehabilitation. (See chap 1, section
II.)
11–5. Separation authority
Commanders specified in paragraph 1–19 are authorized to order separation. Separation will be accomplished within 3
duty days following approval by the separation authority.
AR 635–200 • 6 June 2005 81
11–6. Type of separation
The criteria in chapter 1, section VII, will govern whether the soldier will be released from AD or ADT with transfer to
the IRR or be discharged. (See paragraph 1–11 for additional instructions on ARNGUS and USAR personnel.)
11–7. Procedures
The commander will take action as specified in the notification procedure. (See chap 2, sec I.)
11–8. Description of service
Service will be described as uncharacterized under the provisions of this chapter.


Guess he didn’t do so well......
 
Written By: PSycotte
URL: http://
Yeah, but as Glasnost said, this guy is still right about everything he claimed!

Why is it that the only soldiers the left has any use for are fake soldiers?
 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
UGH! YOU SCOOPED ME!! I was just working on getting that thing, too.

Heh. Good going!

—Tuning Spork
 
Written By: Tunung Spork
URL: http://blatherreview.mu.nu
Thank you for posting that! Now maybe we can all get back to our mundane blog-like lives and put this behind us...
 
Written By: Brad
URL: http://justcitizens.blogspot.com/
One of MacBeth’s complaints in his original video interview was that he wasn’t getting any help from the VA.

He didn’t serve long enough to be elegible for veteran’s benefits. (You have to serve six months IIRC.)
 
Written By: Steven Den Beste
URL: http://denbeste.nu/Chizumatic/
This whole mess should be over, but Macbeth has shown a propensity for refusing to shut up and cut his losses.
 
Written By: Russ
URL: http://beerbaitnammo.blogspot.com
the guy is a pathetic crackpot looking for attention. he fits right in Cindy Sheehan, Al Gore, and all the rest of ’em.
 
Written By: kirk
URL: http://
Old saying in the police department, when a cop is busted for doing bad stuff: "Deny, deny and make counterallegations."
 
Written By: nahncee
URL: http://
I have a question: do you think someone put him up to this? I really have a hard time believing he’s smart enough to have pulled this off all by himself.
 
Written By: Jason
URL: http://shockandblog.blogspot.com/
In all fairness, very few people on the Left ever picked this guy up. The "Socialist Alternative" people (I never heard of them before), a few of the nutjobs at DU (but not all, which should tip you off), maybe a scattered few elsewhere.

The blogs on the Right, on the other hand, took off with this story. It was going overboard to call him the "darling of the antiwar Left," which — with a quick Google search — is what a lot of people were calling him. He was hardly their "darling"; they mostly didn’t know who he is. But now a bunch of bloggers have been caught trying to tar the entire Left with this loser.
Well, there’s no love lost between me and a bunch of the idiots on the anti-war Left, but let’s stay reasonable.

Now, I won’t go as far as the Kos diarists who are using this to call the entire Right a bunch of propogandists, but I will say this: this was blown totally out of proportion. Everyone can agree that Jesse MacBeth was hardly a threat to the war effort, because with perhaps a very few exceptions, only the people with screws loose were willing to be taken in by the guy.
And that’s a good sign, even if this little tempest in the "blogosphere" (I still hate that word) has brought out the Stupid in corners of both the Left and the Right.

I’m glad we can put this all to bed. MacBeth is a fraud, he needs help, and anyone who actually was taken in by him — including IVAW and "dahr", who should have exercised due diligence — has a couple questions to answer. Case closed.

Now, again, let’s move on to something substantial.
 
Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
I have a question: do you think someone put him up to this?
Honestly? No. I think this is all his. Review his criminal record. He’s a scam artist and this was his latest scam. He tried being a "I love my country and am proud of my service type" but that really didn’t get him anywhere. So he went the other way and it gave him the desired attention and a group of people who were willing to accept his story on face value and stroke his ego telling him about how brave and courageous he was for speaking "truth to power", etc, ad nauseum.

He got caught up in it and as long as he flew under the radar screen and kept interacting with the anti-war crowd he had a good little gig going for himself.

But then he screwed up and let his ego get the best of him and made the film.

Game over.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
Everyone can agree that Jesse MacBeth was hardly a threat to the war effort, because with perhaps a very few exceptions, only the people with screws loose were willing to be taken in by the guy.
And that’s a good sign, even if this little tempest in the "blogosphere" (I still hate that word) has brought out the Stupid in corners of both the Left and the Right.
All in all, true. But there is more to this for me.

I guess the best way to relate this is to use a fireman or police officer as an example. We’d find it unacceptable if someone were posing as one of these types. But a cop or a fireman are going to be angry. That’s because what they do means a lot to them and they earned their title. And most have had friends and acquaintences die doing the job. So they’re likely to go after any and all posers with a vengence.

Same here. And it isn’t at all a surprise to me that most of that anger resides on the right side of the blogosphere, because most military folks identify with the right ideologically.

I went after Jesse Macbeth because he said he was a Ranger. Well, being one myself, I knew it was a crock within a minute of watching his video ... that photo was just awful. But like I said when I linked to my Ranger class photo, probably half those guys in that picture are dead from serving their country. And they were real Rangers. They deserved better than letting this toad try to steal their honor.

That was why I went after it so hard. And I’ll do it again if another poser shows up.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
That’s fair, McQ. I’m no Ranger (or military of any sort), and the fraud still angered me. What I objected to is not so much the rapid "outing" of MacBeth as a fraud, and the deserved whipping he got for it, but the attempted use of MacBeth to tar the entire Left.

Now, it may be that catching him so quickly and exposing him so thoroughly saved some of the anti-war Left from embarrassing themselves, but we don’t know how the entire anti-war Left would have responded. He never had a chance to be their "darling."

Some people, mind you, were indeed taken in. Some have tried covering it up; others have washed their hands of him and apologized.
But this didn’t qualify, for either the Right or the Left, as material over which it’s worth screaming at each other. And some blogs — not this one, so much, but others I’ve recently read — jumped the gun.
 
Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
McQ has hit this nail on the head:
MacBeth used this to get his pathological need for attention filled, and to meet chicks.
He is clearly not original, since he was simply copying the great soldier fraud of the vietnam war, John Kerry. His sex life was probablythe best its ever been, as he posed as a young version of John Kerry. He was probably thinking ahead, to getting to be a gigilo for some rich anti-war babe.
I wonder if Kerry thought he could have faked his service completely, and not just his medals, if he would have gone that route as well?
Thank God for the blogosphere to challenge the frauds and forgeries the left relies on.
 
Written By: hunter
URL: http://
The saddest thing about Jesse Macbeth is that by lying and falsifying his DD-214, he betrayed his cause, he betrayed his friends, he betrayed his supporters, he betrayed his country and, most importantly of all, he betrayed himself. Like Philip Nolan, he has truly become a man witout a country for all time.

Pity him for he has truly descended into Hell. His new tour of duty has begun.
 
Written By: Wild Bill
URL: http://
Aaaaw....OrneryWP the "tarring of the Left"...Well the Left has brought itself to this point, from VVAW to IVAW, from Jane Fonda to Cindy Sheehan, from the "Winter Soldier Hearings" to folks like Micah Wright and Jesse MacBeth. What you and the Left don’t like is being "outed", as LIARS. I personally see this as a fight that the Left CAN’T lose, because if it does, almost ALL it’s untruths will be re-examined, from 1968 on.

Bottom-Line: the Left has done little but spread malicious LIES about the US and its efforts in the World since 1968. And those birds are starting to come home to roost. Not ALL the Left, Michael Walzer’s little glob of the Left hasn’t, read his work in Dissent, "Can There Be A Decent Left"? Too bad Jesse MacBeth isn’t from that portion of the Left. I guess we’ll call them the "New, New Left". If you’re one of the them well too bad for you I guess you’re seeing that you don’t get a free rife any more. if you’re from the Walzerian Left, I think you might at least see WHY Wlazer entitled his article what he did.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Thank you for your great reseaerch. I pointed out on another blog that under ’Medals,Decorations’ my DD-214 shows that I qualified with a rifle. That alone should be enough to raise suspicions because:
1 The Army will not let you complete Basic Combat Training without qualifying with a rifle.
ergo
2 Since MacBeth’s DD-214 shows NO RIFLE QUALIFICATION He did not complete Basic Training.
3 Since he did not complete basic training he washed out for one reason or another and couldn’t possibly have been a Ranger.
 
Written By: BigTee
URL: http://
Now, I won’t go as far as the Kos diarists who are using this to call the entire Right a bunch of propogandists, but I will say this: this was blown totally out of proportion. Everyone can agree that Jesse MacBeth was hardly a threat to the war effort, because with perhaps a very few exceptions, only the people with screws loose were willing to be taken in by the guy.
Sorry. I agree with almost all of what you say except for this. Remember that "only the people with screws loose" very precisely describes our enemy and a lot of the people they depend on for support.

I don’t much think that they’ll refrain from using Jesse Wannabe’s little video as a propaganda tool just because we’ve thoroughly ripped it apart, nor do I think that the excellent efforts of the milbloggers will carry much weight with the unwashed masses that will be the target for such propaganda.

If he’d just been another undersexed, pathetic loser trying to borrow a spine by parading around in a mil-surp uniform, I’d have thought him mainly pathetic and, after a while of righteous seething, let it go.

But he just had to take it half a million steps further, didn’t he?
 
Written By: Misha I
URL: http://www.nicedoggie.net/
And some blogs — not this one, so much, but others I’ve recently read — jumped the gun.
Not this blog at all. I’ve been very specific about who I was addressing and I gave examples. I also gave examples of those on the left acting responsbily:
Before an unwarranted assumption is made, let me say this isn’t about all of the left. Some have been very responsible:
Last night, I posted a link to a video interview with Jessie Macbeth, regarding atrocities he says he participated in while serving in Iraq. It appears, however, that there are a number of reasons to question his veracity, so I’ve pulled the post. I should have been more skeptical. My apologies.
I’ve been very careful to say "anti-war left". As commenter Tito - a left of center reader - points out, for many on the left, it’s been more of a disagreement as to whether he’s a "poser" or a "poseur".
But I’m not sure who doesn’t equate "anti-war" movement with the left. Different era, same folks in some cases (see Code Pink). Not that some on the right can’t be anti-war, but the movement itself is centered in the left. So I see nothing wrong with tagging the anti-war left with part of the responsiblity for this. They were the uncritical ones who paraded the guy around, accepted his story at face value and made the video (which I assume was made for a particular purpose and not because Jesse is "good TV").
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
I think this whole episode says a lot more about IVAW (and Peacefilms, whoever they are) than anything.
He’s just another in a growing list of charlatans who they’ve latched onto in order to further their illegitimate claims in support of the enemy.

He may not be "the darling of the left," but he sure was the darling of IVAW until he got "discharged." They’re supposedly war veterans themselves, and THEY couldn’t figure out his lies? I call bullsh**. They either knew he was a fake and didn’t care, or they’re fakes themselves and didn’t know better. I’m sure they knew all along.

I don’t even care about Lady MacBeth anymore. I want IVAW taken down. They get treated with kid gloves by us, and put up on pedestals by the left, because of their "service." They use that service as a crutch to HELP THE ENEMY. As far as I’m concerned, their game is OVER.

See also: Micah Wright, Jimmy Massey, and who knows (yet) who else.
 
Written By: Beth
URL: http://bamapachyderm.com
I see nothing wrong with tagging the anti-war left with part of the responsiblity for this. They were the uncritical ones who paraded the guy around, accepted his story at face value and made the video (which I assume was made for a particular purpose and not because Jesse is "good TV").
EXACTLY.
 
Written By: Beth
URL: http://bamapachyderm.com
Calm down, Joe. If you actually read my comments, it should be pretty obvious why this comment of yours is inappropriate:
What you and the Left don’t like is being "outed", as LIARS.
Give me a break. I am perfectly fine with Jesse being blasted for his fraudulent claims. What I’m not fine with is the partisan rush to tar "the other side" as being nothing but a bunch of cranks.

It’s incredible, really, how you’ve just rushed to lumping me in with the Left. What, just because I disagree about how this story was reported by the blogs, I’m suddenly a "LIAR" who doesn’t like being outed?
I guess we’ll call them the "New, New Left". If you’re one of the them well too bad for you I guess you’re seeing that you don’t get a free rife any more. if you’re from the Walzerian Left, I think you might at least see WHY Wlazer entitled his article what he did.
Actually, Joe, this might surprise you, but I’m pro-war, I tend to vote Republican, and I’m a neolibertarian. I’ve contributed an article to The New Libertarian and I’ve been the proofreader for it. I don’t like Cindy Sheehan or Jane Fonda.

I am not a member of the Left, much less the anti-war Left; but go ahead, you were making a point, right?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
McQ -

While you did make that qualification later in your post, you started that post off with a generalization — the same one many other blogs used — saying, "A darling of the anti-war left, he was praised in various venues for his conscience, for speaking ’truth to power’, for standing up and being counted." Now, I do note that you made the qualification in the same post, but I saw many other bloggers who did not. The fact is, several significant names in the anti-war Left never had a chance to swallow his story, because the first they heard of it was from milbloggers, Righties, and neolibertarians who had already come up with a hundred reasons why Jesse was a fraud.

Perhaps my "not this blog, so much" is a bit too accusatory.

If the pro-war bloggers had sat on the story another week, perhaps, trading emails and waiting to pounce on the big fish, we could have wrapped up the entire anti-war Left at once.
 
Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
While you did make that qualification later in your post, you started that post off with a generalization — the same one many other blogs used — saying, "A darling of the anti-war left, he was praised in various venues for his conscience, for speaking ’truth to power’, for standing up and being counted."
I don’t get it ... that’s entirely consistent with what I said before. I was talking about a particular segement of the left: the anti-war left.

But don’t take my word for it ... from Kos:
There have been several diaries on Daily Kos in recent weeks that have linked to comments made by and interviews with Jesse MacBeth, who claimed to be a former Army Ranger who committed war crimes and witnessed atrocities in Iraq. Several anti-war groups have used this individual as a poster boy and spokesman for the cause. He also was featured in a video discussing alleged war crimes in Iraq, and said video was disseminated widely on progressive, democratic, and independent websites.

[...]

IVAW was not the only group who was scammed by this poser. Respected journalist Dahr Jamail, who many of us here respect, was conned as well. Dahr has also issued a statement regarding MacBeth and removed the aofrementioned video and comments by MacBeth from his website. After Downing Street has also been fooled by the scumbag MacBeth.
Many, many totally accepting and uncritical people and groups on the left more than willing to accept what he said at face value. There’s a reason for that, and I’d love to know what it is. Why would Jamail, who the writer claims is a "respected journalist" allow himself to be so uncritical?
If the pro-war bloggers had sat on the story another week, perhaps, trading emails and waiting to pounce on the big fish, we could have wrapped up the entire anti-war Left at once.
Heh ... you’re probably right, although again, like the woman who wrote the Kos entry and Tito, some weren’t fooled at all ... which again goes back to my point about those who were ... why were they so uncritical if his fraud was so transparant?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
Okay, okay, McQ, you’ve got a perfectly reasonable position. I yield the point.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Tunung Spork - have you tried killing your cookies from QandO?
 
Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
OrneryWP,
No, I haven’t. I hate to think of how many cookies I’d have to search through to locate this one. Eh, maybe it’s not as bad as I fear. I’ll give it a go. Thanks!

—Tuning Spork
 
Written By: Tunung Spork
URL: http://blatherreview.mu.nu
Aw come on, Spork ... your sig always offers me a chuckle when I see it ... espeically the bold "i".

Heh ...
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
It doesn’t matter if Jessie Macbeath is a real US bonehead or not. Here is the reality of it:

http://rawstory.com/comments/15288.html
 
Written By: tony
URL: http://
As a card-carrying member of "the antiwar left," I can say that I never heard of Jesse MacBeth until I read about him on a wingnut site. Yes, I’m among those on my side my read the whackjob sites on your side.

I’d say when it comes to being discredited, the wingnuts really ought to be careful about throwing too many stones inside that crystal palace of theirs. To wit:

- WMD
- Saddam links to 9/11
- "We don’t torture."
- Jessica Lynch
- The Army’s explanation for Pat Tilman’s death
- Marine Corps (attempted) coverup of Iraq massacre

Not to mention some other issues, like:

- "Heck of a job, Brownie."
- We’re only tracking calls between other countries and the U.S.
- Scooter Libby et al
- Iran makes Christians and Jews wear badges

And the best you people can come up with is some nutcase of a fake Ranger who got promoted by some obscure website that virtually no one, Left or Right, had ever heard of until the wingnuts decided to shout about it.

Has anyone told you that you’re slipping?
 
Written By: CW
URL: http://
It wont be over ’til he’s either brought up on charges or gets back on his frickin’ meds.

Anywho, McQ,
I just wanna say something. Allow me this indulgence.

Although I served, enlisted, in the Air Force in the mid-80s, I am not a "milblogger" by any stretch. I don’t believe that I’ve ever visited QandO until this week. But, I’ve been back several times a day all week. Mainly because you’re doing some great blogging, but also because of something else.

I played a very small part in the Jesse MacBeth story this week, but I can’t help but feel like I accomplished something wonderful. Not to be all me me me about it, but my biggest thrill this week wasn’t determining that Jesse MacBeth was nowhere to be found in the old Ranger graduation photos. Also, it was neither that I got a cool Allah-lance nor was it that the info I provided made it into the Wikipedia entry on MacBeth. (Though that was very cool!)

Nope. My biggest thrill this week was following my blog’s referral list back to QandO and seeing that not only had you linked to my post, but that you’d found your own Ranger Class graduation photo because of it.

Now, for all I know you may have an 8x10 of that photo framed and hanging on your wall. Or, this might’ve been the first time you’ve seen it in decades — if ever. Assuming that you hadn’t seen it in a while, I can only imagine the thrill of learning that it’s there, finding it, and then pointing it out on your blog saying (and I could hear you grinning through the monitor) "That’s me", and noting that you were "smiling for the camera on one of the proudest days of my life".

Then I read that McQ2 (Your Wife? Brother? Son?) made that photo his/her wallpaper on his/her desktop with the punctuation: "Very proud".

My contribution to the story was, in the big picture, pretty modest. But, that it made an even bigger difference to you and yours than it did to MacBeth is what I’ll remember most about this week.

Just wanted to tell ya that for some reason.

/sappy drivel

—Tuning Spork
 
Written By: Tunung Spork
URL: http://blatherreview.mu.nu
As a card-carrying member of "the antiwar left," I can say that I never heard of Jesse MacBeth until I read about him on a wingnut site.
I can’t say that surprises me, given the nonsense you posted.

You might want to check in with the other card-carring members of your crew since they were the one’s trotting him around from event to event. I can only surmise your ignorance of his existence is because you aren’t what you say you are.

But then that would fit perfectly in the Macbeth mold.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
Nope. My biggest thrill this week was following my blog’s referral list back to QandO and seeing that not only had you linked to my post, but that you’d found your own Ranger Class graduation photo because of it.
It was a big thrill for me too Spork. I saw faces I haven’t seen in 36 years. Guys who’s names I can’t tell you, but who’s faces are as familar as family.

The guy next to me is named Hawkins. That’s it. That’s all I remember of his name. But he was one of my best buddies in the course. And you know how you call each other by your last name at that age. Well he was "Hawkins" or "Hawk".

The little guy with the asiatic features in tha row is a Malaysian Special Forces officer name Zainal (that’s phonetic). His Ranger buddy was a US Special Forces officer named Flynn.
Now, for all I know you may have an 8x10 of that photo framed and hanging on your wall. Or, this might’ve been the first time you’ve seen it in decades — if ever. Assuming that you hadn’t seen it in a while, I can only imagine the thrill of learning that it’s there, finding it, and then pointing it out on your blog saying (and I could hear you grinning through the monitor) "That’s me", and noting that you were "smiling for the camera on one of the proudest days of my life".
Nope ... no photo on the wall. In fact, I don’t really even remember them taking that photo. I remember a guy taking a photo of me getting my tab pinned on (they literally use a big saftey pin ... or did then) and had always wished I had a that pic. But this one is just as good. And I was grinning through the monitor, Spork ... thanks.
Then I read that McQ2 (Your Wife? Brother? Son?) made that photo his/her wallpaper on his/her desktop with the punctuation: "Very proud".
My brother and best friend. A Navy vet. Just as proud of him.
My contribution to the story was, in the big picture, pretty modest. But, that it made an even bigger difference to you and yours than it did to MacBeth is what I’ll remember most about this week.
You know what, me too ... every time I look at that pic, Spork. Thanks again.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
Much ado about nothing? I will agree that Jessie MacBeth is nothing. I will agree that very few anti-war sites have published his lies. But the number is growing - even now with his true bonafides being brought out in the open for all to see - there are new sites that a simple Google search will show his lies and film again.

"A lie repeated enough becomes the truth." I do not know who to attribute this quote but I believe it. You have to stand up and step on a lie - hard - before it gains any momentum.

And with all this having been said, I wager we have not heard the last of Jesse MacBeth. I will wager we will be seeing his lies again and again. And we need to step on them again when they show.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
OrneryWP, you deserve an "I’m sorry" from me, "Sorry, I thought you were of the Left." The rest of your point is still invalid, however. You make a strawman argument it seems, "Not ALL Leftists think X". I’m sure that’s true, Not ALL anythings are something... HOWEVER, the bulk of the Left IS anti-war and apparentlyy willing to do or say almost anything to bring an end the war.

Example, not ALL Nazi’s would have supported the Holocaust, but it’s irrelevant. The LEADERSHIP did and it DID happen. What any particular Nazi thought or would have thought of it really is irrelevant. It’s not important that many or even a MAJORITY of the participants in anti-war rallies buy any or all of ANSWER’s agenda. BUT it’s ANSWER and the International Solidarity Movement and a mass of Leftists that sponsor the rallies and they support the OTHER side. So if you or your friends or your family attend these rallies they are in effect supporting these folks. It’s not important whether they do or do not agree with the goals and all the methods, they are acting in concert with them. Now the folks at the Euston Manifesto and other Lefteists have segregated themselves from the folks in Code Pink or ANSWER, but they seem to be a minority in the Left.

Bottom-line: All Leftists don’t have to support Michael Moore of Jesse MacBeth or ANSWER, but MOST of them will tolerate them and their tactics. It makes them complicit. So I really don’t think it’s relevant if or if not 10% or 95% of the Left would agree, as the centre of gravity of the Left is in the anti-war New Left position.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Saying that the left didn’t try to publicize the heck outta MacPoser before the right blogosphere came down on his butt is a flat lie. But of course. Lying is truth to power to them. So is posting leftist BS and claiming to be conservative, libertarian, used to be a conservative, was once a republican, etc. etc. which is more of same, just like ole Jesse.

http://www.sfphblog.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/799-The-Macbeth-Myth.html

At least one somebody archived all the pulled stuff for us.


heh.


.
 
Written By: The Machine
URL: http://
Ah...I see CW has used page two of the Left’s guide to debate ... consisting of single words or simple phrases one adheres to as matters of blind faith - unexamined and beyond debate.

The Left cult is one based on feelings not rationality. Ergo we have to endure the whole mendacious sophistry of Bu$HitlerHaliburtonZionistNecons "spying on Americans!" schtick at every revelation of facts that challenge their faith.

CW "thinks" with his gonads, not his brain.
 
Written By: Darleen
URL: http://www.darleenclick.com/weblog
Hey Darleen, and what would you have written had I spent, oh, about a page on each of the bullet points? I can answer that: You’d have yammered about how the Lefties are so wordy.

Here’s the deal: The wingnuts hate America and every single thing it has ever stood for. You hate truth. You hate fact. You hate freedom. You hate life. You have no standards that apply across the board; as long as your Liar in Chief is doing it, you figure it’s okay because after all, "He’s a Christian."
 
Written By: CW
URL: http://
Here’s the deal: The wingnuts hate America and every single thing it has ever stood for. You hate truth. You hate fact. You hate freedom. You hate life. You have no standards that apply across the board; as long as your Liar in Chief is doing it, you figure it’s okay because after all, "He’s a Christian."
Impressive argument there, CW (cough, cough).

Original, scholarly and bordering on brilliant ... for a moonbat.

Get thee back to the cave, please. Your hat needs a tin foil relining and take a refresher in Hate Speech 101, please.

You’re boring us to death.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
Many, many totally accepting and uncritical people and groups on the left more than willing to accept what he said at face value. There’s a reason for that, and I’d love to know what it is.

It’s a classic example of confirmation bias.
 
Written By: Steven Den Beste
URL: http://denbeste.nu/Chizumatic/
Nice work. McQ. Same to other debunkers involved. Well done guys! In the least, most benign case, poseurs steal honor from others. Medium bad case, poseurs can cause distrust of soldiers and their mission in the US population, in disasters where Guard work to restore order and services, cause resentment in host countries our soldiers are based in, and in places where we are engaged, poseurs can rally neutrals to the enemy cause by their anti-American lies. Worst case, their lies can cost us victory in a conflict or cost real soldier’s lives.

So it is a service to the nation and to soldiers living and dead to find poseurs and publicly smoke them out and call for consequences. Again, well done.

===============================
Noticed the admirable Steven den Beste appearing here. Steven, I hope we see you more active again!
 
Written By: C. Ford
URL: http://
Wow.

First, this from Joe:
OrneryWP, you deserve an "I’m sorry" from me, "Sorry, I thought you were of the Left." The rest of your point is still invalid, however. You make a strawman argument it seems, "Not ALL Leftists think X". I’m sure that’s true, Not ALL anythings are something... HOWEVER, the bulk of the Left IS anti-war and apparentlyy willing to do or say almost anything to bring an end the war.
It’s not a strawman. It was calling an awful lot of people on a far overblown generalization. McQ understood what I was saying, because he was one of the few to qualify what he said.

My argument isn’t even that it has to be 100%. On virtually every issue, a huge number of blogs I’ve read from all parts of the political spectrum have an annoying tendency to lump all people who disagree with them into one-dimensional groups. And I’m telling you, it’s not smart.

How often have you been associated with someone who doesn’t come close to representing you? And how do you react when someone makes that association? I’ll go out on a limb here and guess that it puts you on the defensive and makes you think your opponent is too stupid to tell A from Z.
If you make that mistake with even a signficant percentage of your opponents, they’re going to think you are that idiot. And on the Jesse MacBeth issue, the pro-war people who called Jesse on his half-witted fraud did so before a whole lot of anti-war folks even heard of him. He was not (yet, you might argue) their "darling."

Yes, a lot of the DU and Socialist Alternative people wanted to believe Jesse so much that they let him take them for a ride. It’s pathetic, yeah.
But there was doubt even among some of the normally kooky DU people. The anti-war movement as a whole wasn’t prepared to swallow him without some corroboration, though it’s clear that their due diligence leaves something to be desired.
And since many self-identified anti-war people, including several prominent ones, never rushed to Jesse’s defense, the generalization — "darling of the anti-war left," as if they as a collective had decided he was their cause celebre, as many of them have with their useful idiot Cindy Sheehan — was hasty. Like I said, maybe if we had sat on this another week or so, we might have been able to use that generalization.

I know a lot of lefties. Believe it or not, they are not willing to say or do anything to bring an end to the war. All the lefties I know want to be good people, and they want to be able to look at themselves in a mirror at the end of the day. When they start getting off on some "Michael Moore is just fighting fire with fire" kick, I am always able to keep them honest by asking them what makes misleading spin good for one side but not for the other.
I’ve found that it’s a lot easier to approach people by starting from the assumption that they’re not evil and interminably stupid. It’s much easier to keep them honest — and to allow them to keep you honest — when you don’t do foolish things like lumping them together with people with whom they don’t identify.

In politics, surgical strikes are more difficult than saturation bombing, but always more effective when you can afford them. In this case, we have links to the specific people who made the mistake of taking Jesse’s ridiculous story at face value.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Next, The Machine:
Saying that the left didn’t try to publicize the heck outta MacPoser before the right blogosphere came down on his butt is a flat lie. But of course. Lying is truth to power to them. So is posting leftist BS and claiming to be conservative, libertarian, used to be a conservative, was once a republican, etc. etc. which is more of same, just like ole Jesse.

http://www.sfphblog.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/799-The-Macbeth-Myth.html

At least one somebody archived all the pulled stuff for us.


heh.
Hey Machine, in case you were paying attention, I linked to that SFPH blog several posts ago, under the text "Some people." (I think it’s the 16th post down)

Now, why would I link to that post if what I was saying was a "flat lie" intended to deceive anyone here?
Perhaps I have a nuanced argument, one that belies your attacks on me.

And I didn’t post any "leftist BS." What did I post that possibly could make me out to be on the political Left? Have I ever posted anything that suggests I’m anything but a neolibertarian? I mean, what does someone have to do to establish his bona fides around here? And why are you guys rushing to kick out anyone who disagrees with you about one issue out of the club?

What seems to be flying right past you guys is how many people a political movement — which is what neolibertarianism is, as opposed to a philosophical club — can lose by making hasty generalizations. There’s not enough "us" to turn everyone we don’t like into a "them." That’s the very mistake the Libertarian Party keeps making.

I think that the QandO bloggers are extraordinarily careful to qualify their generalizations and avoid such logical fallacies. Unfortunately, not all of their commenters practice the same policy.
 
Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
I am like Jesse. I joined the Army in 1981 at 19 and washed out six weeks later. As a Northerner from Montana, I failed to acclimate to the sweltering southern climes of Ft. Jackson, and was the only person in my unit to be set aside with other washouts. Many Montanans acclimated, adapted, but I just didn’t have what it took. I thought I was so smart, that ANYONE could go into the Army. Was I wrong. I wasn’t spectacular, and neither were any of the other washouts. None of us were capable for one reason or another to adapting. I had so wanted to be a linguist, a translator and cryptographer, and college just didn’t supply the education for that. Simply put: I failed. It is the one failure in my life about which I am ashamed. The only difference between me and Jesse is that I don’t go around making things up about my Army experience. Don’t get me wrong, my life is still happy, I have a good husband and four lovely daughters, but I often reflect what my life might have been had I succeeded. I still love languages and learn them quickly, but everytime I do the cryptographs in the puzzle section, I wince, wondering what I might have done differently. When I flew back to Montana, I left my honorable discharge certificate and other forms on the seat in the airport. It was too painful to read, so let me say this, to all of you who serve, with or without distinction, how proud I am of you who have succeeded where I failed. I salute you all. We are not worthy of your sacrifices, and the ingratitude of so many in my country makes me prouder of you, and angrier at the rest of us. On this Memorial Day Weekend, former Private Washout Jauhara acknowledges your sacrifices and commends you all. Thank you.
 
Written By: Jauhara al Kafirah
URL: http.infidelphialive.blogspot.com
CW yammers: Here’s the deal: The wingnuts hate America and every single thing it has ever stood for. You hate truth. You hate fact. You hate freedom. You hate life.

Absoluting proving Dennis Prager
Though liberals regard themselves as intellectual — their views, after all, are those of nearly all university professors — liberal thought has almost died. Instead of feeling the need to thoughtfully consider an idea, most liberal minds today work on automatic. One-word reactions to most issues are the liberal norm.

This is easy to demonstrate.

Here is a list of terms liberals apply to virtually every idea or action with which they differ:

Racist
Sexist
Homophobic
Islamophobic
Imperialist
Bigoted
Intolerant

And here is the list of one-word descriptions of what liberals are for:

Peace
Fairness
Tolerance
The poor
The disenfranchised
The environment

These two lists serve contemporary liberals in at least three ways.

First, they attack the motives of non-liberals and thereby morally dismiss the non-liberal person.

Second, these words make it easy to be a liberal — essentially all one needs to do is to memorize this brief list and apply the right term to any idea or policy [...]

Third, they make the liberal feel good about himself
CW’s hormonal temper tantrums demonstrate how unserious contemporary Left cult members are. It’s a wonder he knows how to tie his shoes.

Or maybe he just has the sneakers with the velcro tabs.
 
Written By: Darleen
URL: http://www.darleenclick.com/weblog
Ornery you persist in making distinctions that make no DIFFERENCE. Plus you seem to suffer from Pauline Kael Syndrome." Again it’s NOT relevant that ALL Nazi’s or that ALL members of the CPUSA or the Republican Party support: a) Genocide b) A Unitary Party Marxist-Leninist State in the US c) Tax Cuts...the PARTY(ies) does(do). What counts is what happens or what is proposed, not what EACH member thinks, because organizations don’t aggregate EACH INDIVIDUAL INTEREST, but operate under Michel’s Iron Law of Oligarchy. The 5% in Leadership count. Right now the Left is predominantly anti-war and a majority of those folks fall into the ANSWER, Moveon.org, Michael Moore crowd. And, judging from the turnouts, MOST folks protesting are willing to accept that position, either implicitly or EXPLICITLY.

And sure none of the Leftists YOU know think that way....well Pauline Kael didn’t know ayone who voted for Nixon, BUT he won in a landslide. So the crew from the Left you hang with are good and decent folk, OK. And who has more influence, Noam Chomsky or them?

Bottom-line: it is IRRELEVANT that SOME or MOST of the Left aren’t from New Left position, because the New Left position dominates the Left’s discussion of the issue(s). The question is "How soon can the US withdraw from Iraq?" not, "IF the US should withdraw from Iraq?"

In re: Macbeth I’d say that because the Right reacted quickly, almost PROACTIVELY, the Left never GOT to make him a "darling". But to say that most Leftists didn’t know who he was or support him begs the question, doesn’t it? Because of swift action HE NEVER GOT THE CHANCE. A failure to act doesn’t mean that womeone WOULDN’T have done something only that they had no chance to act. And I would advance that theory in this case. It is a case of "He said-She said" as the conclusions fit either set of facts. But let’s not hear too much concern for the Left being "tarred." From 1968 on the Left or New Left and the now, New, New Left (Critical Theory) have a track record of deceit and deception. Viewed in that light Ornery I’d say that the Left just never got the CHANCE to love Jesse, not that they rejected him, after all they loved everyone at the Winter Soldier Hearings and I didn’t see too much critical thought at the "War Crimes Trials" in Sweden put on by Russell, either.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Ornery you persist in making distinctions that make no DIFFERENCE.
They make a helluva lot of difference. Remember that a huge number of people who are against the war today were not against the war two years ago. They are people who can be persuaded to change their minds. If you try to lump in everyone who recently switched views on the war with some monolithic "anti-war Left" only serves to alienate them further from the pro-war crowd. And if you jump into a generalization without being able to name several very prominent anti-war Lefties, you’re reaching.
Plus you seem to suffer from Pauline Kael Syndrome." Again it’s NOT relevant that ALL Nazi’s or that ALL members of the CPUSA or the Republican Party support: [...] The 5% in Leadership count. Right now the Left is predominantly anti-war and a majority of those folks fall into the ANSWER, Moveon.org, Michael Moore crowd. And, judging from the turnouts, MOST folks protesting are willing to accept that position, either implicitly or EXPLICITLY.
Excuse me, but it is entirely relevant whether your generalization includes very prominent opinion-makers on the other side and, really, the majority of Leftists out there, who never heard of Jesse MacBeth before he had already been discredited.

You’ll never be able to fight them properly if you blind yourself to the complexities inherent in their political movement, as in all movements. They are not monolithic; that means they can be divided and conquered if you don’t do their party’s job of unifying them under one banner.
And sure none of the Leftists YOU know think that way....well Pauline Kael didn’t know ayone who voted for Nixon, BUT he won in a landslide. So the crew from the Left you hang with are good and decent folk, OK. And who has more influence, Noam Chomsky or them?
Apparently, Noam Chomsky doesn’t have influence over them, and that includes the many I know who are college students.
I disagree with the Lefties I know all the time, but I am able to do so in a way that doesn’t alienate them from me. Occasionally I’m able to sway their opinions on issues; when’s the last time you were able to do that?

I’ve never seen anyone’s opinion change in the direction of someone who’s screaming at them. Never.
In re: Macbeth I’d say that because the Right reacted quickly, almost PROACTIVELY, the Left never GOT to make him a "darling". But to say that most Leftists didn’t know who he was or support him begs the question, doesn’t it? Because of swift action HE NEVER GOT THE CHANCE. A failure to act doesn’t mean that womeone WOULDN’T have done something only that they had no chance to act.
Wow, Joe, welcome to the debate. I made the same point a few times already, and McQ agreed.

But notably, you also don’t know that they WOULD have done what you think they would have done. I was already seeing doubt in the comment sections I read before he was discredited by the pro-war bloggers, and if you go back and read them you’ll see the same thing. There were plenty of people who swallowed the story whole, but if you see doubts from Democratic Underground and Daily Kos commenters (of all people!), you start to wonder just how good your generalization is.
Viewed in that light Ornery I’d say that the Left just never got the CHANCE to love Jesse, not that they rejected him, after all they loved everyone at the Winter Soldier Hearings and I didn’t see too much critical thought at the "War Crimes Trials" in Sweden put on by Russell, either.
Many people who are against this war have never heard of the Winter Soldier hearings. Many are people who have limited experience with, and thus investment in, the anti-war movement or in the Left.
They can be persuaded. I know this because I’ve been able to wear people down who have taken anti-war positions. It takes persistence, but you can divorce people from Michael Moore and Kos and Cindy Sheehan and the like — that’s the easy part — if you just refrain from putting them on the defensive. Then you can work on showing them where they have their facts wrong, searching for the articles of faith that underlie their political philosophy. And then you can start pointing out what those articles of faith are, those things they can’t prove except with other articles of faith. And then you can start knocking those pillars out from under them.
But if you start out by attacking them and lumping them in with the idiotic hard core peaceniks, you burn their bridges behind them. If you make generalizations before you’ve got them trapped — I mean, really trapped — they won’t recognize their defeat. They just won’t. They don’t feel that Jesse was their "darling," so they won’t be persuaded by the people who start out by identifying Jesse as their darling.
 
Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
Damn, I should really have looked at that preview to make sure I closed the tags. I just get tired of having to hit that Preview button.
 
Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
Ornery you persist in making distinctions that make no DIFFERENCE.
They make a helluva lot of difference. Remember that a huge number of people who are against the war today were not against the war two years ago. They are people who can be persuaded to change their minds. If you try to lump in everyone who recently switched views on the war with some monolithic "anti-war Left" only serves to alienate them further from the pro-war crowd. And if you jump into a generalization without being able to name several very prominent anti-war Lefties, you’re reaching.
Plus you seem to suffer from Pauline Kael Syndrome." Again it’s NOT relevant that ALL Nazi’s or that ALL members of the CPUSA or the Republican Party support: [...] The 5% in Leadership count. Right now the Left is predominantly anti-war and a majority of those folks fall into the ANSWER, Moveon.org, Michael Moore crowd. And, judging from the turnouts, MOST folks protesting are willing to accept that position, either implicitly or EXPLICITLY.
Excuse me, but it is entirely relevant whether your generalization includes very prominent opinion-makers on the other side and, really, the majority of Leftists out there, who never heard of Jesse MacBeth before he had already been discredited.

You’ll never be able to fight them properly if you blind yourself to the complexities inherent in their political movement, as in all movements. They are not monolithic; that means they can be divided and conquered if you don’t do their party’s job of unifying them under one banner.
And sure none of the Leftists YOU know think that way....well Pauline Kael didn’t know ayone who voted for Nixon, BUT he won in a landslide. So the crew from the Left you hang with are good and decent folk, OK. And who has more influence, Noam Chomsky or them?
Apparently, Noam Chomsky doesn’t have influence over them, and that includes the many I know who are college students.
I disagree with the Lefties I know all the time, but I am able to do so in a way that doesn’t alienate them from me. Occasionally I’m able to sway their opinions on issues; when’s the last time you were able to do that?

I’ve never seen anyone’s opinion change in the direction of someone who’s screaming at them. Never.
In re: Macbeth I’d say that because the Right reacted quickly, almost PROACTIVELY, the Left never GOT to make him a "darling". But to say that most Leftists didn’t know who he was or support him begs the question, doesn’t it? Because of swift action HE NEVER GOT THE CHANCE. A failure to act doesn’t mean that womeone WOULDN’T have done something only that they had no chance to act.
Wow, Joe, welcome to the debate. I made the same point a few times already, and McQ agreed.

But notably, you also don’t know that they WOULD have done what you think they would have done. I was already seeing doubt in the comment sections I read before he was discredited by the pro-war bloggers, and if you go back and read them you’ll see the same thing. There were plenty of people who swallowed the story whole, but if you see doubts from Democratic Underground and Daily Kos commenters (of all people!), you start to wonder just how good your generalization is.
Viewed in that light Ornery I’d say that the Left just never got the CHANCE to love Jesse, not that they rejected him, after all they loved everyone at the Winter Soldier Hearings and I didn’t see too much critical thought at the "War Crimes Trials" in Sweden put on by Russell, either.
Many people who are against this war have never heard of the Winter Soldier hearings. Many are people who have limited experience with, and thus investment in, the anti-war movement or in the Left.
They can be persuaded. I know this because I’ve been able to wear people down who have taken anti-war positions. It takes persistence, but you can divorce people from Michael Moore and Kos and Cindy Sheehan and the like — that’s the easy part — if you just refrain from putting them on the defensive. Then you can work on showing them where they have their facts wrong, searching for the articles of faith that underlie their political philosophy. And then you can start pointing out what those articles of faith are, those things they can’t prove except with other articles of faith. And then you can start knocking those pillars out from under them.
But if you start out by attacking them and lumping them in with the idiotic hard core peaceniks, you burn their bridges behind them. If you make generalizations before you’ve got them trapped — I mean, really trapped — they won’t recognize their defeat. They just won’t. They don’t feel that Jesse was their "darling," so they won’t be persuaded by the people who start out by identifying Jesse as their darling.
 
Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
Bruce,

Thank you for helping to bring this sad charade to an end.
 
Written By: SMASH
URL: http://www.indepundit.com
Hmmm...

Maybe I spoke too soon:
I have come to the conclusion that Jessie was not lying, and that this whole smothering fiasco will turn out to confirm the truth of his testimony.
Furthermore, what we hear coming out of Iraq substantiates these levels of atrocities committed by the American soldiers in Iraq. Recall the execution of the wounded old man in the Fallujah mosque that was caught "accidentally" on video by a correspondent; and the Haditha massacre that was recorded "by luck" and is now under scrutiny because it was recorded.

How many massacres have been committed by the American soldiers in Iraq that have NOT been recorded and, hence, will not be persecuted for their crimes?
Of course, they only discredit themselves by continuing to endorse such an obvious fake.
 
Written By: SMASH
URL: http://www.indepundit.com
Whatever OrneryWP it’s obvious you’re wedded to your view that just because the LEADERSHIP of a movement is wedded to a position doesn’t mean that the rank and file are...again it’s true but irrelevant. The leadership sets the agenda for the movement, not vice versa. If the revers were true there’d be a whole lot more folks in with the Euston Manifesto and a whole lot fewer folks in with Moveon.org or ANSWER. So whilst not everyone agrees with "Bush Lied, People Died" that’s the thrust of the movement and I don’t see a whole lot of the DSA or Moveon, abandoning that position....
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
But you’re conflating other events with this Jesse MacBeth case. Many of the highest-profile anti-war folks never picked up on MacBeth, and neither did a huge number of the people who are against this war. Many probably still don’t know who he is.

I wasn’t arguing the "thrust" of the "movement" (again, it’s not a monolithic thing, and there are many different attitudes within that movement). I was arguing about the Jesse MacBeth case. So you’ve brought in something that you admitted is tangential to this story — precisely because many who are against the war never got the chance to learn who Jesse is, some of those who did learn early were skeptical, and most others only learned of him after he had been discredited. (There are still a few rather pathetic hangers-on, but he’s toast.)

Now, are you determined to go on dismissing me, or are you going to start thinking about this issue as if it’s more than two-dimensional?
 
Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
But you’re conflating other events with this Jesse MacBeth case. Many of the highest-profile anti-war folks never picked up on MacBeth, and neither did a huge number of the people who are against this war. Many probably still don’t know who he is.
Macbeth was a small time scam artist flying pretty much under the radar until he made his now infamous video. As you point out, had we sat back and let it go a while, with that video out, he might have been picked up by some of the higher profile anti-war types. It was the anti-war left who was using the guy and his story, but pretty much on a local basis. When he finally gained higher visibility, he was stomped flat in record time.

Which is why ...
Many of the highest-profile anti-war folks never picked up on MacBeth, and neither did a huge number of the people who are against this war. Many probably still don’t know who he is.
...that is pretty much true. That’s not to say, given his acceptance by the local groups, that those who are at a higher level wouldn’t have used the guy had they known of him. But that’s conjecture on my part.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
Now, are you determined to go on dismissing me, or are you going to start thinking about this issue as if it’s more than two-dimensional?
It’s obvious I’m not DISMISSING you, look at the length of our posts. OBVIOUSLY you want the best of both worlds, yes I conflate MacBeth and the Anti-War Movement. It’s my choice, because he was a tool of the movement. You want to break the link. I don’t agree. Then you want to talk about the MOVEMENT. One of the other, in my view MacBeth IS a aprt of the movement and it’s fair to conflate them. You keep wanting to parse the Left, I say fine, but again who cares what EXACT percentage want to do what, whne the focus of the active mevement is something entirely different? The anti-war Left and it’s message IS within ANSWER and it’s ilk. Sorry that seems to bother you... Look I don’t calim all Lewftists are anti-US or Pro-The Other side, just that the vocal leadership of the anti-war movement IS.

You constantly talk about the various currents in the movement. OK they exist, but they are guided in only ONE direction... I just don’t see the two or threee peace rallies, one by ANWER, one by folks that want to end the war but don’t support ANSWER and then one by the Democratic Socialists FOR the War. I just see the ANSWER rally. Whne these multifarious currents and strains of thought care to manifest themselves in the streets and in the Blogosphere (measured by the vituperation they recieve at Kos, DU, Moveon, BartCop, etc.) THEN we can talk about the nucances of the movement.

Right now, PRACTICALLY, it IS two dimensionsal, on the Left in the anti-war movement... there is Dubya, Chimpy McHaliburton’s Illegal, Immoral War for Oil and Haliburton Destroying Iraq in the Name of Profit and then there’s the rest of us. It’s two-dimensional on BOTH sides Ornery, Moveon despises me (in a generic "me" sense as they don’t know "me" from Adam- as a supporter of the GWoT and OIF) and I despise THEM, in a generic "them" sense-as I only know a few of their ilk in passing on the Internet.

Are there Leftists I admire, yeah one... Michael Walzer. I don’t AGREE with him on many matters, but I admired his work Just and Unjust Wars. I can’t say I like Hitchens much, his work blows hot and cold, he exagerates Kissinger’s crimes in one work, so I have to figure he exagerates Clinton’s in the other. He’s a Marxist, not simply Marxian, but a Marxist of the hardish variety. he has never repented of being such. Frankly it’s like having Leni Riefenstahl on your side, I don’t much care for it or him. Norm Geras may be a Leftist, having just read a bit of him. But NONE of the threee woould turn up at an ANSWER rally, either. I don’t say ALL Leftists are anything, but I do say that the Anti-War Movement is FOR THE OTHER SIDE, as a practical matter. And if this is simplistic, well Ornery you may well find that some things in life ARE simple...
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Methodological individualism, Joe. You’re responsible for your comments, actions and beliefs, and not those of the groups to which you belong. Nor are members of The Left responsible for words/actions/etc of other members of The Left.

Even assuming you’ve characterizing the groups correctly, you’re committing a basic error of attribution. This is the political equivalent of "blood libel" — of saying that Person X is responsible for Person Z merely because they belong to the same group.

You may be determined to do it, but it’s a lazy intellectual shortcut, and — worse — it’s destructively obscurant and dehumanizing.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
As you wish Jon. I AM responsible IF I accept actions done in my name. It’s not "intellectually lazy" it’s a moral necessity. IF you march in an ANWER rally you’re stuck with the ANSWER label. You don’t march in the rally you got no problem. You must differentiate yourself from the group however, and unless you do you are complict with the group’s goals and actions. The Anti-War Left hangs together on the streets under the ANWER banner they get stuck with the label and the rap. Ornery and now you want to let your friends in the Left off the hook. My only response is if they aren’t with ANSWER they got no problem if they are oh well. Jon the fact is groups and membership in those groups come with costs and advantages. I’m just pointing out that IF you’re part of one group, as far as I’m concerned, you’re not much of a person.

Now that seems to cause you and Ornery heart burn. I can’t figure it out. Like I said, if you’re a Nazi you’ve got some ’splaining to do. And saying, "Well I don’t buy all that Jew bashing stuff" doesn’t make the cut, morally or intellectually. You can’t just say, "Not all Nazi’s think certain ways and we can’t judge them." Sorry yes we can, on the basis of the company they keep. I have differentiated between the various Leftists and I’m talking about THEM. THYE seem perfectly content to lie and decieve to achieve their ends. And even IF EVERY member of ANSWER doesn’t do that, their group does. Sorry, but that tars them, too.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Re: Glastnost et al, who seem so wounded because they got caught by the farmer in the hen house and now say that they were just trying to return some chickens that had gotten out.

SSgt Alfred Smith, my drill SGT in basic training (and the scariest man whom I have ever met), said it best: "When you throw a rock into a pack of dogs you can always tell which one you hit because he yelps the loudest."
 
Written By: Major K.
URL: http://
Stars and Stripes caught up with MacBeth:
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=36627&archive=true

"In a telephone interview Thursday, MacBeth said he purposely wore his uniform backward in a video interview in which he made his allegations because veterans are prohibited from wearing their uniforms at protests.

Asked why the Army found no record of him, MacBeth said, “They did the same thing to John Kerry.”"

"But MacBeth insisted he served in Iraq with the Rangers and claimed Iraq Veterans Against the War had betrayed him.

“When the heat gets on them they stab me in the back,” he said.

Still, MacBeth said he would not defend his credibility any further.

“I’m not going to follow this battle no more. The right wing won,” he said."


 
Written By: Anonymous
URL: http://
Just as there are a "number of reasons to question his (MacBeth’s) veracity", there are just as many reasons to question the blatant anti-military, anti American diatribes of the leftwing websites that publish that type of crap. They are so eager to repeat anything they’re told, as long as it fits with the requisite "America: bad, Islamofascists: good". The best thing about the internet is that retribution for contrived
bullsh!t is swift. Macbeth got schooled on what happens when a wannabe Soldier invents their own customized "war record". I served in Iraq in Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom. I’d like to meet this little "hero" and introduce him to some of my fellow veterans, for a little "wall-to-wall counseling".
SFC Cheryl McElroy
US ARMY
 
Written By: SFC Cheryl McElroy US ARMY
URL: http://
QUOTE
I’d like to meet this little "hero" and introduce him to some of my fellow veterans, for a little "wall-to-wall counseling".
UNQUOTE

SFC you will have to wait your turn. This has to be properly brought up the chain.

The Chain starts with me, Little bitty E-4 CPL.
I did not get to go to Iraq. when i volunteered, I did not have enough time left. I want to ask him PERSONALLY how his experiences where like

Now.
someone got his DD214 which is hard to do. I commend you for it.

but let us see how good you are.

It says his place of entry is phoenix.
So what is his current address?

I see on another blog it states he carries a weapon 24/7 If he carries concealed...I hope he has a concealed carry permit. otherwise the cops might just get to him.. There is no way he works in a hsopital with a gun sticking out.

I wonder if he works in the hospital across the street from his home of record upon entry.

this is going to be fun
 
Written By: me
URL: http://
QUOTE
Xavier is a Registered Nurse who specializes in complex wound care. He has been practicing for over ten years in his community. He often treats patients in areas where law enforcement refuses to enter without back-up. Xavier has been an avid shooter for over 25 years. He strongly supports the 2nd Ammendment, opposes gun control of any sort, and carries a weapon 24 hours a day. Xavier is known on various internet gun forums as XavierBreath
UNQUOTE

Let me see
DD214 says DOB 1984
It is now 2006

2006 - 1984 = 22

he has been practicing for ten years? he was a registered nurse at the age of 12.

He was shooting 3 years efore he was born.
 
Written By: me
URL: http://
strike that last comment.
That nurse is someone else I confused with Jesse.

It is now late..I need sleep
 
Written By: me
URL: http://

 
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