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Stem Cell Funding
Posted by: Jon Henke on Thursday, July 20, 2006

I'm not happy he took so long to veto a bill, but I'm not actually unhappy that Bush has vetoed the stem cell research bill. Our reasons differ — Bush is opposed to using embryonic stem cells, I'm opposed to using federal money to pay for what could and should be privately funded research — but the result is the same. Stem cell research is still perfectly legal, and anybody who would like to fund it is perfectly welcome to do so. And many are, so send in your checks, guys! There's important work to be done!

Or is this vitally important research only important enough to spend other people's money on?

I don't differ with them on the potential benefits of embryonic stem cell research — embryonic stems cells do have different potentialities than adult stem cells — but one Democratic objection strikes me as odd.
Despite this wide-spread support, despite the possibilities and the hope this research offers, the President is expected to veto this legislation.
Right! Onward with the missile defense program!

Oh, wait. Stem cell research. Sorry, I lost the narrative there.

Meanwhile, despite widespread support, despite the possibilities and the hope that the research offers, Democrats oppose a missile defense program.
 
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I have a hard time believing that anyone familiar with the state of the world and the state of our security would argue that developing an anti missle system is more important than protecting our ports.

Anyone wanting to blow up the US can just ship the warhead here via UPS. Perhaps we should fix the cheap easy attack first. The Russians and the Chnese could overwhelm an ABM system and the North Koreans could easily miss. That makes a first stike really unlikely.

You guys think the democrats are soft on security? Look around.

BTW: The Internet, the micro chip, and anything done with radio active isotopes were all developed on the federal dime. Basic research almost always is. Historically, industy is far too concerned to make expensive long term investments in technologies of uncertain profitability.



 
Written By: cindyb
URL: http://
I have a hard time believing that anyone familiar with the state of the world and the state of our security would argue that developing an anti missle system is more important than protecting our ports.
If I make that argument, we’ll have that conversation. I haven’t.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.qando.net/
Why not fund both? Both have the potential to save lives, sounds like a better investment than nation building.

 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
x2master We are or have you failed to notice that? We are placing LIMITS on Federal Funding on Embryonic Stem Cell Research, not banning funding entirely.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Historically, industy is far too concerned to make expensive long term investments in technologies of uncertain profitability.
Tell that to the pharma companies who spend BILLIONS in R&D.

Take it down to the simplest piece. Bush’s stance is he does not want the Feds to fund it. Maybe this is the start of something good. Maybe he’ll decide the Feds should not fund other things, like, maybe Education and Healthcare.
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
Stem cell research has a demonstrable path to success, one we can’t just rely on Big Pharma to discover (from the same folks who want to patent DNA). Missile defense, assuming it works exactly as designed (a far cry from the current state) would not defend against the most significant threats to America (the 9/11 attacks would be unhindered by ballistic missile defense).
 
Written By: Oliver
URL: http://oliverwillis.com
Well Joe obviously the limit is not enough for scientists to proceed whole heartedly with their research. No company will privately step in and gamble their bottom line.

Maybe we can also limit Aids, cancer, and diabetes research since we havent found any cures for them, HUH?

Research in Bio-tech is a hell of alot more costly than Bush’s alotted budget.

 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Missile defense, assuming it works exactly as designed (a far cry from the current state) would not defend against the most significant threats to America (the 9/11 attacks would be unhindered by ballistic missile defense).
But MIGHT protect us from the "Ronery Guy" in North Korea, the PRC’s 18 nuclear-tipped ICBM’s and from a future Iranian threat... not so bad if you ask me.
we can’t just rely on Big Pharma to discover (from the same folks who want to patent DNA).

Yeah beyond penicillin and about 90% of the drugs on the market what have they EVER done for us?
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Well Joe obviously the limit is not enough for scientists to proceed whole heartedly with their research. No company will privately step in and gamble their bottom line.

Really and so all those drug commercials I see were from Federally funded research? And 2X can you point out ONE major reserch project hamstrung by Federal Embryonic Stem Cell Research limits? Money being fungible, those resources that the Fed’s free up in Adult Stem Cell Research can be diverted into Embryonic Stem Research, by Corporations or Universities.
Maybe we can also limit Aids, cancer, and diabetes research since we havent found any cures for them, HUH?
ADULT Stem Research has produced measuarable progress in treatments, beyond the "potential" of Embryonic Stem Cells can you show equivalent progress in Embryonic Research. Just last week it was shown that ADULT Stem Cells can help rejuvenate damaged heart muscle after a heart attack. Adult Stem Cell research IS producing results too. In fact, more results than Embryonic Stem Cell research...so tell me which one we are supposed to LOGICALLY fund?

AND Embryonic Stemm Cell Research is NOT stopped by the Bush program WHICH ALLOWS THE USE OF A NUMBER OF STEM CELL FAMILIES ALREADY CREATED. Your problem is 2x you’re using talking points, here.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Hey, if they want to argue that a North Korean missle strike in California, isn’t a significant enough threat to protect against, let them.
Stem cell research has a demonstrable path to success
Good thing that President Bush has funded stem cell research then isn’t it.

Oh, he’s limited FEDERAL support for embryonic stem cells, but that isn’t limiting stem cell research in total...
Research in Bio-tech is a hell of alot more costly than Bush’s alotted budget.
So, we should just have the Federal government take over all research since it’s all much more costly then the current fed budget allows.

Yeah, that will improve the situation.

Something many people seem to forget is that there are a number of stem cells beyond the embryo that also deserve research funding. So, how should the government alot the money?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4480875.stm
US scientists believe they could use brain stem cells to cure diabetes.

Although the work is not yet ready to be tested on human patients, results in animals have been promising, say the Stanford University researchers.

They were able to coax the immature brain cells to develop into the insulin-producing islet cells that are lacking in diabetes.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3584090.stm
A stem cell cure for diabetes is a step closer, scientists have predicted.

A team at Toronto University found immature cells in the pancreas of adult mice that were able to develop into cells that produce insulin.

If the same precursor cells are present in humans, it may be possible to cure diabetics who have to take insulin.
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/84/98078.htm

Some lab mice with diabetes now have normal blood sugar levels, thanks to the miracle of stem cells. For humans, this means a possible new treatment for type 1 diabetes.

The study, published in the journal Laboratory Investigation, involves bone marrow cells, which are a source of stem cells — master cells that have the capacity to grow and develop into a variety of cell types, including pancreas cells that produce insulin.
As a diabetic and a Christian, I’d prefer that research focus on non-embryonic stem cells. Which path, BTW seems to be bearing some fruit.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
Ultimately though, I’d prefer the government to get out of the job of handing out money.

I can manage my diabetes on my own, with the help of Big Pharm.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
The adult stem cells are not viable to create multiple types of tissue like brain, pancreatic, spinal and the like.

The newest research has Embryonic stem cells regenerating spinal tissue in rats,and restoring mobility. Adult stem cells can not.

The research and science is still young hence the need for more money!Pretty simple Mr.Joe.

Scientists have stated the lines that exist are not enough, but I suppose brainiac Bush knows science better than Genetic researchers, Cmon get real.


 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Scientists have stated the lines that exist are not enough, but I suppose brainiac Bush knows science better than Genetic researchers, Cmon get real.
X2Master, Let them create them...Bush’s limit doesn’t stop them...Again talking points, dude.
The adult stem cells are not viable to create multiple types of tissue like brain, pancreatic, spinal and the like.

And we have not made Embryonic Stem Cells do it EITHER.


This is as much about Bush-bashing and Christian-bashing as it is Science x2. No one is STOPPING anyone from any research. They are simply saying, there is SOME research the Federal Government will NOT fund. Again money is fungible. Federal money frees up NON-Federal money. Only the problem on your side is that doesn’t let you bash the folks you want to bash. So keep on with the talking points.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Again Joe why limit funding to Embryonic stem cell research but fund alternate forms of stem cell research?

Has to do with Christian appeasement? Maybe?

Definetly not SCIENTIFIC in your reasoning .
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Alas almost 40 years of research with adult stem cells with marginal results.

The scientific community has determined the best avenue is embryonic cell research.

Thats not a talking point it is a direction scientist have proposed.

I only see hardline religious fundimentalists objecting.Hardly the theater of people to decide scientific agenda for the future.

Ya know like they say,

Dont pray in my school and I wont think in your church!
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
x2 - you might as well ask why support abortion but opposed the death sentance...

POLITICS!!!

bleech... spit spit... getting that bad taste out of my mouth.

So, why not just open the doors to all scientific research??

Cloning humans - sure no problem. So what if most people might have ethical issues with it, it might save someone, or a lot of people.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
Of course, you are requiring that my money be used for something that I might have ethical problems with.

Bush seems to have gotten to a compromise solution, which allows some federally funded research, and doesn’t prevent ANY privately funded research.

But, that’s not enough for some. All or nothing, if you’re not going to increase funding 3X, and are increasing it by 1.5X then you’re cutting it by 1/2.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
Im talking about embryonic stem cell research not cloning.

Most Americans back federal funding of stem cell research.63%-71% at any given time in the last 2 years.

Why should the majority take a back seat to the minority because they think they speak for a diety?

Abortion, my point exactly. The majority support it. It is legal. It is a choice . If you object make a different choice.

If a cure is found through embryonic stem cell research then you also can have a choice to say I object to this cure so let me die because Im too ignorant.

Still this issue is not dead.

Prediction: there will soon be enough supporters to prevent a veto.
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Or, you could put your money where your mouth is and support it yourself...
Ultimately though, I’d prefer the government to get out of the job of handing out money.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
Oh x2Master your posting really says a lot, about YOU and many in your camp.
Alas almost 40 years of research with adult stem cells with marginal results.
Alas the WHOLE FIELD IS LESS THAN 20 YEARS OLD!
The scientific community has determined the best avenue is embryonic cell research.
No, Vice President Gore, the "whole scientific" community has NOT determined this. Please note the advances in the treatments involving ADULT Stem Cells.
I only see hardline religious fundimentalists objecting.Hardly the theater of people to decide scientific agenda for the future.
Uh why not? It’s THEIR money too. You see x2Master it’s also about PUBLIC POLICY, not simply "Science." Many are saying, "Don’t use our money for this." So we don’t. Use YOUR MONEY, dude...Use Monsanto’s, Genentech’s, Harvard’s, why even California’s...
Ya know like they say,

Dont pray in my school and I wont think in your church!
Rather revelatory isn’t it. This isn’t really about Science, it’s about YOUR PREJUDICE concerning the Religious. YOU’RE THE ONE NOT THINKING. You want money spent in a manner pleasing to you and will accept no alternative(s). I’d say x2Master is the one not thinking, but praying, in his/her Church of the Secular World.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Most Americans back federal funding of stem cell research.63%-71% at any given time in the last 2 years.
As do I...I simply oppose MY MONEY funding research I find morally objectionable. I have NO PROBLEM with Adult Stem Cell Research, or even research involving the 50 families acceptable within the Federal Guidelines. So x2Master, I would point out, "Lies, D@MNED lies and Statistics." Your poll means much or little, doesn’t it, since I, too would be in that 63-71%?
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Oh and that peskiy "Science-thingee"...from Michael Fumento, via Rightwing News:
"Embryonic stem cells (ESCs) receive tremendous media attention, with oft-repeated claims that they have the potential to cure virtually every disease known. Yet there are spoilsports, self included, who point out that they have yet to even make it into a human clinical trial. This is even as alternatives – adult stem cells (ASCs) from numerous places in the body as well as umbilical cord blood and placenta – are curing diseases here and now and have been doing so for decades. And that makes ESC advocates very, very angry.

How many diseases ASCs can treat or cure is debatable, with one website claiming almost 80 for umbilical cord blood alone. Dr. David Prentice of the Family Research Council, using stricter standards of evidence, has constituted a list of 72 for all types of ASCs. But now three ESC advocates have directly challenged Prentice’s list. They’ve published a letter in Science magazine, released ahead of publication obviously to influence Pres. Bush’s promise to veto legislation that would open wide the federal funding spigot for ESC research. The letter claims ASC “treatments fully tested in all required phases of clinical trials and approved by the U.S Food and Drug Administration are available to treat only nine of the conditions” on his list.

Well! One answer to that is that it’s nine more than can be claimed for ESCs. Further, there are 1175 clinical trials for ASCs, including those no longer recruiting patients, with zero for ESCs."
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Prediction: there will soon be enough supporters to prevent a veto.
Guess again, not enough supporters, meaning actual voting members of the House.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/7/19/205635.shtml?s=us

President Bush rejected legislation Wednesday that could have multiplied the federal money going into embryonic stem cell research, using the first veto of his presidency to underscore his stand on the emotionally charged, life-and-death issue.

A few hours later, the House voted 235-193 to overturn Bush’s veto, 51 short of the required two-thirds majority.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
Why is federal money required for this research?

IF embryonic stem cells are such a sure thing (which is what many supporters give the impression it is), then why isn’t there a tremendous amount of private money available for it?

I mean, anyone with even a small amount of money to invest would be an idiot not to bet on a sure thing at the ground floor.

I kick myself for not investing in Microsoft back in the mid-80’s.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
Well Keith there might be this, from the same website:
"The reason that embryonic stem cell researchers are agitating for taxpayer money is that their private funding has dried up. Private investors and venture capitalists are not investing in embryonic stem cell research because they perceive it to be a pipe dream unlikely to produce any progress and, hence, investment returns, in any reasonable time frame.

Researchers aspiring to be on the dole and investors whose money is mired in floundering stem cell research firms are looking to federal funds for relief. Such groups already hoodwinked California voters for $3 billion last year with Proposition 71 — a sum that pales in comparison with what Congress could slop in their troughs.

The bottom line is that if embryonic stem cell research had real promise, private investment would be overflowing into biotech companies. But it’s not."
Steve Miloy, via Rightwing News. Admittedly an opinion piece, via Fox News... so it IS opinion and it is CONSERVATIVE opinion. However it does make a nice argument about WHY some folks, masquerading as ALL Scientists, favour Federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.

 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
WHY some folks, masquerading as ALL Scientists, favour Federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.
Because it will be the well that never runs dry. Any attempt to cut or stop the funding would be met with cries of ’it’s for the children’ or ’it’s for the senior citizens’... the flow would never cease, and the academics could get back to important things at school like whether or not a conservative should be allowed to do a commencement speech.
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
Heh Joe my typo meant 14 tears o results.

Went back to gallup and you are not reading correctly , my # are correct:

63% favor federal funding for EMBRYONIC stem cell research. 22% oppose.

You are stating adult stem cell research.They are not the same.

Gedon has used both. Embryonic stem cells not adult stem cells can be cultured into multi-type cells.
The above company has used the embryonic stem cells to rewire spinal cord cells and restore function in lab rats just recently.

I believe in God. Not religion. They have had there chance to prove themselves for thousands of years with nothing but" my God is bigger than yours" complex.

In my opinion neither Jesus, muhhamed, or Buddah has brought home the pork chops!

Believe God gave us a brain to use not conform.

A democracy usually or should go by the will of the majority last time I checked.

Opposition to federal funding of EMBRYONIC stem cells is in the vast minority.




 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Hey JOE what diseases have been cured with umbilical and adult stem cells?

I can not find any.

Just returning the ball in your court.
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
A democracy usually or should go by the will of the majority last time I checked.
Oh goody! Does that mean we can bring back slavery if we get 51% of the population to agree with it?
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
A democracy usually or should go by the will of the majority last time I checked.
Well since we’re a Constitutional Republic and not a democracy, I suppose we may not see that happen.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Or is this vitally important research only important enough to spend other people’s money on?
Halleluiah, praise the maker. A perfect, textbook, libertarian argument. Drinks on me.

Just one small problem. As long as we’re talking about spending other people’s money…

I don’t have to explain to you, or anyone else here, that in a democratic republic such as ours, we get to decide how we spend public funds. In most cases, there is at least a small group of people that disagree on how that money is spent, … yeah well, tough toenails; the people have spoken.

"Do you think the federal government should or should not fund research that would use newly created stem cells obtained from human embryos?"
Should: 56%
Should Not: 40%
Tough toenails.

But that’s okay, though. We’re talking about a textbook libertarian argument. Anybody need a refill?

It’s too bad, however, that libertarian principles aren’t applied to the Iraq war.
"Do you think the U.S. should or should not set a timetable for when troops will be withdrawn from Iraq?"
Should: 52%
Should Not: 42%
You know, because everyday that we’re there, you’re spending my money.
Oh. Because you, hawkish libertarian, think otherwise, you go on and spend our money. And it’s perfectly reasonable to spend my money where you deem necessary… But when we’re talking about government funded research… well, that just crosses the line.

"All in all, considering the costs to the United States versus the benefits to the United States, do you think the war with Iraq was worth fighting, or not?"
Worth fighting: 40%
Not worth fighting: 58%
But let’s stick to libertarian principles, shall we? Those who oppose the Iraq war, stand and be recognized.

Stem cell research is still perfectly legal, and anybody who would like to fund it is perfectly welcome to do so. And many are, so send in your checks, guys! There’s important work to be done!
Excellent idea.

Grab your pen, Mr. Henke. It’s check writin’ time.
Total of the U.S. taxpayer cost of the Iraq war:

$297,440,061,435
No wait,
Total of the U.S. taxpayer cost of the Iraq war:

$297,441,234,262
No wait,

Total of the U.S. taxpayer cost of the Iraq war:

$297,442,897,298
(sigh)
Oh, just forget it.
 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
Cmon Flacy we are talking about healing people not owning them, besides a brutal war amongst us decided that fate.

KUDOS PogueMahone!!!

News flash no more US checks.... put it on credit my great grandkids can pay for it, no problem.
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Why does the federal government spend $28.5 billion (FY 07) funding the NIH?

It’s virtually all medical research.

If we’re going to spend it anyway, why shouldn’t ESC research be in the mix of competetive grant funding? (that we shouldn’t spend any of it is a seperate argument with some validity)

The current attitude is to fund the best science. IF ESC proposals rise to the top of the NIH grant review process, why not fund them?

We spend the money to fund scientists to look for cures. Why not let the peer review process let scientists decide what’s most likely to bear fruit?
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
Pablo because some people believe life starts as an embryo and ends at......birth?
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
x2master, that one I’m familiar with. I’m looking for the economic argument, which I have yet to see anywhere.
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
Some articles on Stem Cells here:
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/SO_stemcells.php

They include:
Patient’s Own Stem Cells Mend Heart
Adult stem cells proving themselves in the clinic.
Dr. Mae-Wan Ho 13th January 2005

Bone Marrow Cells Repair Heart Damaged by Chagas’ Disease
Two women whose hearts were severely damaged by Chagas disease (see Box) showed remarkable recovery three months after stem cells from their own bone marrow were transplanted into their heart.
Dr. Lilian Joensen 13th January 2005

No Case for Embryonic Stem Cells Research
Technical and financial hurdles add to ethical and safety concerns over embryonic stems cells while adult stem cells are achieving remarkable clinic successes.
Dr. Mae-Wan Ho 16th December 2004

Cord Blood Stem Cells Mend Spinal Injury
Stem cells isolated from umbilical cord blood enable her to walk again after 19 years. No need for embryonic stem cells
Dr. Mae-Wan Ho 13th December 2004

Adult versus Embryonic Stem Cells
Dr. Mae-Wan Ho gives the latest score-sheet in the great stem cell debate.
Dr. Mae-Wan Ho 9th July 2002
 
Written By: Anonymous
URL: http://
x2Master there are nine, processes of Adult Stem cells being approved for treatment...now Embryonic Stem Cells have.... None, not a one, Nada, Rien...Null.

So all this "Science" seems to come down to YOU WANT Embryonic Stem Cells, whther or no they have proven any value yet.

Balls in your court. I stand with the citations above.....
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
No one is talking about ENDING the Beloved Christian Adult Stem Cell "any-day-now after 40 years" miracle cures. Or taking away any of the 700,000 "Frozen Children of Jesus" that any more on top of the 125 "Snowflake Baby" families want.

[Though the 100 or so families are in such hot demand to go on paid tours and bring the Jesus-redeeming "Snowflakes" to Right to Life Churches for members to say Hallilueah! over, they tend only to want 1, maybe two rejected embryos from some other couple...Only 125 Snowflakes made over 10 years time. Not a solution to the masses of unwanted blastocysts, just a minor sideshow puffed up by Religious Right politicians.]

No, have a ball, line up all the Christian uteruses willing to be implanted, keep full adult stem cell funding going. To say it is a choice in funding in the freest-spending Administration in history - either adult or embryonic - but not both can be funded - is a Fundie lie in a time when 28 billion goes into the wallets of agribiz multimillionaires in Jesusland simply NOT to grow crops or to fuel more ethanol pork subsidies.

Just recognize that 95% + of all unwanted embyros still will get flushed down the toilet even if researchers get the lines they want to see if a cure for diabetes, parkinsons, and spinal paralysis is feasible.

And just recognize that 70% of Americans are in favor of research on embryonic stem cells and almost 85% of Americans approve of basic research into incurable diseases like solid tissue cancers, AIDs, diabetes and possible great societal advances like tapping fusion energy, advanced prosthetic devices for maimed soldiers and then the public —- Even though such research is rejected by private industry due to long time horizons past the next quarterly results, that lack "immediate or reasonable Venture Capital 5-year investment cycle criteria". Blocking the will of 70% of the People is going to get mighty painful for RTL politicians living outside RTL Jesuslands.

And no one except the worst of Opus Dei and the RTL fanatic community wish to ban in vitro. Even Bush, in a rare moment of non-religious sanity, praised in vitro as offering a future to many infertile couples.

The Bushies and RTL fanatics in the Senate, like Coburn, Santorum, Delay, and "Mr Snowfake" Brownback of Kansas, lie and claim the extra embryos are lovingly and humanely kept in perpetuity. They know that isn’t so.

And everyone in the scientific community knows their other claims are big lies on par with the 6,000 year old Earth. Bush’s "approved lines" are far smaller in number than he said back in 2001, contaminated with mouse and rat proteins and DNA - and useless for developing any FDA-approved treatment from. And the lie that adult stem cells are just as useful - Provided unproven research can regress adult stem cells into true pluripotent embronic cells.

Margeret Carlson said, echoing people like Orrin Hatch and Gordon Smith and Nancy Reagan - I don’t want the president to shut down fertility clinics because they’re committing murder. I want him to open the door to stem-cell researchers because they aren’t. I want him to acknowledge that my brain-damaged brother is as worthy as any infertile couple of being rescued by an embryo. Instead, he chooses to favor one over the other with no recognition of the contradiction.
 
Written By: C. Ford
URL: http://
Cmon Flacy we are talking about healing people not owning them
Well, except for the embryos. But they aren’t really considered people by legal fiat, are they?

If we’re gonna go that route, why is organ donation voluntary? Think of all the lives that could save! It’s not like you’re going need them after you’ve kicked the bucket.
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
And the lie that adult stem cells are just as useful - Provided unproven research can regress adult stem cells into true pluripotent embronic cells.
Gee C at the end of the your argumentum ad hominem screed you finally get around to making some factual claims. Such a pity they are untrue...Again NINE FDA approvals in the works for ADULT Stem Cells and NONE for Embryonic. No they don’t have to be "regressed" to anything. So what you and x2Meister are REALLY saying is, "We hate the Religious Conservatives and this is our way of attacking them." Because you’re argument(s) are not particularly strong or well-supported. Mostly they seem founded upon some sterotypes concerning the people you oppose.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
OT, but since Cindyb brought it up:

I have a hard time believing that anyone familiar with the state of the world and the state of our security would argue that developing an anti missle system is more important than protecting our ports. Anyone wanting to blow up the US can just ship the warhead here via UPS. Perhaps we should fix the cheap easy attack first. The Russians and the Chnese could overwhelm an ABM system and the North Koreans could easily miss.

Again, as with the stem cell debate, those that oppose missile defense try to frame it as a false choice. That if we go ahead with a missile defense, we automatically fail to address port security. If we go with embryonic reasearch, then the couple of dozen "snowflake" Christians will be robbed of the 700,000 embryos they wish to implant in Christian uteruses....and embryonic stem cell research will somehow destroy all efforts at adult stem cell research...

Obviously Cindyb has no military background, and has likely not been watching the news about NORK tests and long-range precision missiles falling into Hezbollah terrorist hands just changed the global strategic picture and has some 15 nations making inquiries to the US on actively participating in missile defense development.

Our Navy, exposed to long-range missiles on it’s missions overseas, and our deployed troops in range of SRBM and MRBMs consider missile defense an imperative. Same with those seeing the need to have moderately effective missile defense systems to deter rogue nations with modest abilities from hitting CONUS, and just as importantly our non-nuclear non-missile capable allies like Japan, Australia, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt - facing a possible threat from Iran and the NORKs may elect not to join the nuclear and missile race themselves if we have the ability to offer them viable defense and thermonuclear deterrence.

People with military experience to not engage in wishful thinking that the NORKs "could just as easily miss (Japan, our continent) with a guided missile as hit it".

While the Russians have the ability to overwhelm our missile defenses - the Chinese, Iranians, NORKs do not in either strategic or in theater war at this time.

"Port Security" is the bugaboo of people that think it’s OK for a ship to be loaded unmonitored in N Korea bound for NYC, a plane to take off from KSA and land in Chicago...just as long as it is searched by thousands of Federal flunkies when it arrives at Ground Zero. True Port security involves knowing what is coming into the USA by having security at embarkation ports - not 1,000 Federal min wage people in polyester suits searching 780 cargo containers on each arriving ship for a possible dud thermonuclear bomb that failed to go off as soon as the ship arrived at the center of NYC.

Lefties with no idea of threat assessment counsel us that in their opinion, the "real threats" are future Tim McVeighs with box cutters or a smuggled nuclear bomb not a missile - confusing apples and oranges - and further counsel that missiles are irrelevant in Lefty strategic thought since "a ship" could come into America and explode!!! [ unless they were nice and waited for the port Security Heroes to search the docked ship for a few days rather than just set off the nuke when it arrived] Now what would happen if "Tim McVeigh-like types" tried to seize a plane these days is the plane would be saved by the passengers, taken in dive by the pilot to make a crater before they got cockpit control. Not a big problem anymore. Yes, a non-missile owning nation could blindside the US with WMD use by a few planes or ships, but not affect our war-fighting ability or the continuence of our civilization. An attack which would then immediately lead to theater control where no ship or plane was allowed to come within 200 miles of our nation or deployed forces without being destroyed without qualm until the war finished....And whoever attacked would then be helpless as our nuclear-tipped missiles finished the war they started. And even if they were caught trying to use WMD before they could attack...still be destroyed. Our current war plan calls for no Geneva Convention avoidance of civilian casualties in a WMD war - it calls for "complete national destruction" of the ability of any nation (outside Russia) that hits us with WMD. A turning of N Korea or Iran into a nuclear wasteland.

That is the reason that strategic missiles are indispensible. It is possible that a tramp NORK steamer could start a nuclear war, but a limited missile defense and plenty of American nuke missiles guarantee we would win it and very few NORKs would survive.

 
Written By: C. Ford
URL: http://
I stand with Mark and Joe here. C. Ford I will repost my comments from the discussion thread on stem cells from earlier in the week since I don’t think you’ve had a chance to read them.

C.Ford : at first, I thought you were an anti-Muslim bigot (all Muslims are just fundamentalist psychos waiting for you to say boo to chop your head off). Then, I thought you were an anti-Jewish bigot (all Jews are rich "money men" who control the world through the offices of the Democrat party). All this is fine and I could have happily lumped you in as the modern reincarnation of one of the Know Nothing Party’s most fervent members. Now, with the anti-Christian screed, I am forced to move you from simple Know Nothing bigot to religion hating bigot period. Where does this level of hatred and scorn for the beliefs of the orthodox religious community come from? Where you abused by a priest, or kidnapped by scientologists and forced to watch L. Ron Hubbard videos? Do you consider all Christians to be simply hypocritical rubes led on by medieval notions of morality preached to them by scam-artist evangelists?

For the life of me, I cannot understand the enormously skewed perceptions that more than a few of the posters here at QandO seem to have of religion. Every Christian is not Jerry Falwell. Every Jew is not George Soros (who isn’t even an identifying religious Jew). Every Muslim is not OBL.

Could one of you die hard secularists please explain this attitude to me?
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: http://
Joe -
Gee C at the end of the your argumentum ad hominem screed you finally get around to making some factual claims. Such a pity they are untrue...Again NINE FDA approvals in the works for ADULT Stem Cells and NONE for Embryonic
Joe, you are a broken record on your wonderful 9 FDA approvals for treatments, not cures, on perpherally important diseases, or just FDA recognized course of treatment of some disease where stem cells have no direct effect - but Maaay have pallative effects....after 40 years of research. Since the science has just progressed enough to start basic research on embryonic cells towards understanding (cancer) or curing MAJOR diseases (diabetes, retinal blindness, spinal paralysis), it is like saying back in the 50s that antibiotics should not be pursued since cures were not proven and we should be content with "tried and true mercury, arsenic, and sulfa drug treatments".

Again, no one is saying you Right to Lifers cannot have your precious adult stem cell "cures" and FDA approvals. For all the rest of society cares, you can stick with them and we will join in your prayer sessions to go from 9 peripheral treatments of diseases that affect a few up to 20 or so adult treatments that even might involve a significant disease.

If it turns out that in 2012, Year 46 of adult stem cell efforts, it comes up with a cure for diabetes that saves 110,000 lives a year and lets 5 million diabetics lead normal lives...the 70% of the population that wants embryonic stem cell therapies investigated will say "GREAT!! A cure is a cure!"

No one is trying to interfere with your "Christian-blessed" research. More power to you. We just want religious fanatics to bug off on efforts to block what the majority of Americans want - to use cells routinely flushed down sinks or toilets to see if we can end the terror of mankinds great remaining killing
diseases or injuries or degenerative conditions that give a terrible quality of life (broken neck paralysis, Parkinsons)

If embryonic stem cells, in year 8 or year 12 begin to come up with evidence of cures and treatments and private businesses or nations piggyback off the basic research with applied research.....then RTL Christians are still free to say, remain paralyzed rather than accept spinal cord embryonic cell treatments.

As other posters have noted, there is no cure for AIDs, lung cancer, no evidence that instant teleport through quantum wormholes is feasible. After 50 years, we have no commercially viable fusion process.

Do RTL Christians oppose all scientific research funded by the government that does not have a "private enterprise payoff" in sight? Are you RTLrs generically anti-science?

Poet Omar - No one cares about your smarmy moral judgements. Ever wonder why people like you are so reviled & hated the world over??? Re-read your post for insights.

 
Written By: C. Ford
URL: http://
Hated the world over? Really? Gee whiz, I’m pretty sure no one threw rotten fruit at me in Israel, Turkey, India, Egypt, Russia, the Ukraine, Germany, Thailand, Indonesia, etc. Or even here in the good old US of A. And I’m not exactly shy about my religious beliefs. Although I do make an honest effort not to push them on others. As for the religious in general being hated the world over, I seem to remember reading somewhere that two of the most popular figures in twentieth century history were Pope John Paul II and Mother Teresa of Calcutta.

As for smarmy moral judgements, how about the depraved, whacked-out conspiracy theorist diatribes you have launched into? You are the one passing moral judgements here, pal. Just a few columns ago you launched into the evil rich jews controlling the world thing, which PogueMahone rightly called you on. Every time you discuss an issue touching on religion, it becomes a personal jeremiad. You obviously have some deep seated issues with the religious. You know what? This is America, by all means, have issues, but don’t try to spew that kind of bigoted garbage here and expect not to take some heat. Again, I know that I am probably in the minority here in defending religion, but there is plenty of room in our society for both religous and secular folks without bitter recriminations flowing back and forth. You have no desire for reasonable, rational dialogue regarding issues that some consider to be questions of religious belief and/or morality. Fine, but in your endless frothing at the mouth, wild-eyed conspiracy theory laced postings, try to show a smattering of something resembling a point, instead of endless religon bashing one-liners.

PS Instead of just silly personal attacks here, you could have actually explained your personal animus against religion and/or the religious.
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: http://
I see the flames starting up here, but I just wanted to share that a friend of mine has hotchkins disease and the doctors are going to be using an adult stem cell procedure on her. From the basics that I’ve been told, they are going to take a bunch of stem cells from her bone marrow, then do some heavy radiation and such to that bone marrow to get rid of the bad marrow, and then put the stem cells back in to grow new bone marrow.

 
Written By: Chris
URL: http://
Chris, that’s proven technology which has been around for a while. Best wishes to her for successful treatment.
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
Such a pity they are untrue...Again NINE FDA approvals in the works for ADULT Stem Cells and NONE for Embryonic.
What is that supposed to prove? How many of those nine applications have federal research money behind them?

ESC’s are pluripotent and can potentially become any type of tissue. Adult cells are already differentiated and are limited in what they can be made to do.

That said, framing the issue as ASC’s vs. ESC’s is a false dichotomy. Radiation works, but that doesn’t stop people from using chemo, nor does it stop scientists from looking for other cancer treatments. We have cars and we know they work just fine. We still wants trucks around, don’t we?
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
Hi Joe , poet Omar and Mr ford,

Thanks for 411 Joe.

Gedon has used Embryonic stem cells to culture and repair damaged spinal cord tissue giving a return of mobility in rats, so there is one.

Guys I have a flyer a college kid gave me up here in Virginia some will find offensive, but I thought it might break up the tension here:

NEWS FLASH NEWS FLASH NEWS FLASH

IN A STUNNING REVERSAL WASHINGTON HAS AGREED TO ALLOW EMBRYONIC RESEARCH ON ARAB/ISLAMIC EMBRYOS.
WHEN PRESSED OFFICIALS ,DEMANDING ANONYMITY, SAID THIS IS A WIN WIN SITUATION IN THE GLOBAL WAR ON TERRORISM. WE WILL GET THEM BEFORE THEY GET OUT OF THE UTERUS!
CHRISTIAN RIGHT EXTREMIST ALSO ENDORSE THE PLAN. SEE SINCE THEY DO NOT ACCEPT JEEEEEZZZZZUS AS THIER SAVIOR THEY ARE DAMNED TO THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ETERNITY ANYWAYS, EXPLAINED ONE PREACHER.

END OF REPORT






 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Poet

I do not wish to veer into religion but this is obviously an issue with religiuos people.

Religion HAS impeded throughout history free thinking and science. There is no way to establish an arguement against this.

The Judao-Christian bible , koran, well all ancient texts explained our origins with a primitive understanding of the world we live in.
This is evidenced with 6000 year old earth theory as well as the flat earth theory.Earth is center of universe theoryETC.

These concepts are laughable today although many were killed and tortured for centuries because it was considered hurtful and blasphenous to disagree with anything that is scripture.Men had to protect God and show their devotion by denying men of thought and observation life and liberty.

I love GOD. I believe that there is something out there. I would like to point out that I like my free will to think just as equally. I understand the balancing act you refer to in tempering the mad scientist mentallity.I also think science is needed to temper the religious mentallity as well my friend.

Long time ago I remember a debate where which
the fundamental issue was freedom and religion in the USA.Do we as a nation prescribe to one basic religious principle that interferes with free thought and advancement.Making a long story short, the debate ended with , We can not allow one group of people worshipping God as they understand him impede the very freedom of all peoples when it is that very freedom that allows them to worship without fear of persecution.

The people want federal funding of Embryonic stem cell research by a margin of 2 to 1.
The people want adult stem cell research 3 to 1.

Essentially our freedom , our voice, our choice is being held hostage as a country and free people with one of the above.(embryonic)

This is another example of the religious right placing themselves in the realm of science when they have no science only ancient doctrine.

Part of living in a free society is that sometimes things around us and people around us may offend our personal beliefs. Remember though that alot of people are still persecuted for those differences in belief.

Morals are as important. Science is important.

Please though remember in this issue if it were truly one of morals and beliefs then the Government would have outlawed the procedure of creating embryos in the first place.This rules out a moral issue, thus what is remaining?

A minority flexing its views, beliefs,and yes judgement on us all through a polital process that did not respect the wishes of all free people in our GOD blessed land.







 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Hey, how about we prepare for the next pandemic or bio-terror attack with Federal money. If we can’t stop those 2 things, all the stem cell cures in the world aren’t going to help us.

Let Big Medicine develop the miracle cures with their own money.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
"The reason that embryonic stem cell researchers are agitating for taxpayer money is that their private funding has dried up. Private investors and venture capitalists are not investing in embryonic stem cell research because they perceive it to be a pipe dream unlikely to produce any progress and, hence, investment returns, in any reasonable time frame.

Researchers aspiring to be on the dole and investors whose money is mired in floundering stem cell research firms are looking to federal funds for relief. Such groups already hoodwinked California voters for $3 billion last year with Proposition 71 — a sum that pales in comparison with what Congress could slop in their troughs.

The bottom line is that if embryonic stem cell research had real promise, private investment would be overflowing into biotech companies. But it’s not."
Um, I think you proved my point...

There’s nothing to suggest that investing in embryonic stem cell research is prudent. So, your preference is for the Federal government to invest in it.

My preference is for the Fed gov not to invest in it.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
x2master, I appreciate your kind words, however my ultimate solution to this is basically in line with what Keith is suggesting.

Since the moral side of this debate is not going to be argued to a successful conclusion for anyone (for prior example, see abortion 1973-present), I suggest that the feds just butt out. Congress should withdraw all funding and all restrictions on stem cell research. Let the free market pursue it if its viable and such states as want to support it may do so as well. If the vast majority of Americans are for embryonic stem cell research as you claim, then most of the states should gladly jump on the band wagon. If not, then the legislators who vote for it will be turned out of office next election cycle. For the folks who opposed this type of research like myself, we won’t have to worry about our government supporting, with our money, something we consider a moral aberration. For those in favor of it, it removes any existing or future federal barriers. Lastly, for those who are against government spending period (I’m in this group, too), it stops what is bound to become yet another massive government agency/office from being formed. As an added bonus, it puts the ball in the states’ court, which should make the federalist types happy.

Speaking strictly for myself, and as probably the only Muslim who posts here, I don’t have a problem with evolution as a theory. It challenges some of the more literal interpretations of the Old Testament of the Christian and Jewish Bible, but the Quaran and Islam in general are very open to the idea of evolution. And pre-1500, most of the world’s scientific advancements came from the Muslim world. Google (or wikipedia) my nickname (Poet Omar), Al-Ghazali, Avicenna, Averroes, numerous others.
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: http://
Note to all who complain about a "broken record" ADULT STEM CELLS ARE PROVIDING CURES, TODAY... Embryonic Stem Cells
NOTHING.
Which to invest in.... What a question.
ESC’s are pluripotent and can potentially become any type of tissue. Adult cells are already differentiated and are limited in what they can be made to do.

Key word Pablo, POTENTIALLY. Just as in the Philosopher’s Stone had the Potential to transmute Lead into Gold. POTENTIAL, but no actuality, whereas ASC DOES produce results.

Again this is as much about Religion as "Science" and a reading of x2Master and C.Ford reveals a lot about the other side. Note the animus against Right to Life and the Religious. This is about defeating them D@MNED Christians as much as curing Parkinson’s Disease. And if ACTUAL RESULTS are anything to go by it’s MORE about teaching them D@MNED Christians their "place" than finding any cures.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
You are dancing around the issues with a blantant disregard for the will of the majority Joe, for YOUR personal convictions to a religion .Just to reciprocate your tactic what right do the religious have to impede the will of the majority?

You can run but you cant hide......


 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Omar

I would say it not only challenges it ,it refutes it.
You prove the point that advancement can be made with religion and science together but you fail to state one fact, How many were killed for ignorance becuase they proved the scripture false.

Dont get me wrong, I think God exists without religion and religion exists without God.. This would require me to condemn other religions as false and mine the only truth to the kingdom of heaven.This is what has caused great harm, bigotry, war, and division.

So far human comprehension to God(s) has resulted in a fractured world.

Scripture is against abortion and probably Embryonic stem cell research. It is also against war and hate but idealogues have plenty.Good to hear from you Poet.
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
You are dancing around the issues with a blantant disregard for the will of the majority Joe, for YOUR personal convictions to a religion .Just to reciprocate your tactic what right do the religious have to impede the will of the majority?

You can run but you cant hide......
You’re correct I oppose ESC Research on Moral grounds, HOWEVER you keep touting it as "Science" when the EONOMICS and SCIENCE of ESC v. ASC says, "ASC is the way to operate."

The person whose prejudice is on display is the fellow(s) who touts Science, but when confronted with logical arguments and evidence continues to tout the alternative...IN SPITE OF THE CONTRARY EVIDENCE.

Again IF ESC is such a great idea, YOU PAY FOR IT. All the current regime says is that Federal moneys may not go for all ESC research. And right now that is not only the MORAL course it’s the ECONOMICALLY SMART course. Your problem is you can’t accept that because it lets "those people win." Harvard is FREE to research ESC to it’s heart’s and Endowment’s content. Drive on Troop.

Fianlly you and CFord might examine the history of the 20th Century, well really the History of the Enlightenment, profitably. You will discover that the "religious" have been far less a bane on human existence, than say the "heirs of the Enlightenemnt" have been. Or at least no more a problem. I believe it is the ATHEIST regimes of the the USSR, the PRC and Kampuchea that have killed over 100-million humans, NO? I belive Lysenko and now "Environmental Science" have or are busy undermining REaL Science. There is this false BELIEF that the Religious represent "Superstition" and "Illogic" whilst the Enlightenment frees us from all that. The REALITY is that Enlightenment Philosphy(ies) are just as dangerous, bigoted, self-righteous and narrow-minded as ANY Religious sects have been. So grow up and realize that Religion and Science aren’t enemies. That’s just a myth both sides like to put out because it serves each side in it’s supposed confrontation with the "other."
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
First president to allow federal funding of human embryonic stem cells: George W. Bush.

Current restrictions on private funding of human embryonic stem cells: None.

Why are people on a libertarian blog, arguing against the libertarian approach to this?
 
Written By: ChrisB
URL: http://
Good comeback Joe!!!

Never ever thought Id get you to agree with me on anything!!! Holy Moly!!!!

I like what you said and I agree with you totally about enlightenment philosophy and pure aetheist regimes, just as dangerous in principle and action compared with crusades and inquisitions.

Still a reciprocation though Joe.I guess we could list the atrocities of both, and logic might dictate that maybe we need a new way.
Maybe the young lions of the earth can take the best of both sides and make a better world for us all!!!

Peace Joe!!!!
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Key word Pablo, POTENTIALLY. Just as in the Philosopher’s Stone had the Potential to transmute Lead into Gold. POTENTIAL, but no actuality, whereas ASC DOES produce results.
POTENTIAL is why we do research, including the ASC research that led to the therapies you noted. They were once nothing more than POTENTIAL, yet you seem rather glad that the research was done to realize that POTENTIAL.
You’re correct I oppose ESC Research on Moral grounds, HOWEVER you keep touting it as "Science" when the EONOMICS and SCIENCE of ESC v. ASC says, "ASC is the way to operate."
THIS is the argument I’d like to hear. Would you mind fleshing it out? If we already have "A", why should we EVER research "B", according to this logic?

 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
Chris

His first vetoe!

I hear people complaining about money.Well no one here can argue without looking foolish about the opportunity he has had to vetoe huge spending bills on war AND pork!!

He is the first in this issue because this issue is very new!!!

Private funding is drying up.

Libertarian? Thats free will, not the will of a religious faction on the majority.

Take care.
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Heh Pablo

You a scientist? I like the A B anology!


Research is nothing but a risk.The majority want to take that risk.The minority say no on their moral parameters.Its not that complicated.

Just remember to vote this November!

Thats the real risk here for the Republican party that this will fly against them.

Lets prove them right for once.

PS PS (note i am neither republi-con or demo-crap , just have strong feelings towards advancing medicine as fast as we can)

 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Maybe the young lions of the earth can take the best of both sides and make a better world for us all!!!
I don’t want anyone trying to make a better world for us all!!!

If people would worry about their own little part of the world, we’d all be better off.

The failure of all utopians is thinking that they know what’s best for everyone else.

Me, I just want everyone to keep their dirty hands to themselves.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
just have strong feelings towards advancing medicine as fast as we can
And you think that Federal funding is the fastest way of doing this?
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
Good note Keith

We can start with our own country and get out of everyone elses backyard for a start Mr.Keith.Talk about utopian, making everyone into our image by force.
If we do not try to make it a better place who will?

Sky fairies?
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
wAnd you think that Federal funding is the fastest ay of doing this?

Big money, good start!!Damn right!!!
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
And you think that Federal funding is the fastest way of doing this?
The FY 07 NIH budget is $28.5 billion. So, yes. The Fed is BY FAR the largest sponsor of biomedical research.

From the Libertarian perspective, we shouldn’t spend any of that. That’s a valid argument.

But we do spend it, and we’re going to continue to do so. Why should ESC be left out of the mix?
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
Pablo ESC research is NOT out of the mix... you may wish there was more, but research can continue on the 50 families allowable. Again money is fungible. Take the available federal money, take private money(s) or California’s money(s) and use it for MORE ESC research. All the Fed’s say is tht ESC research is LIMITED, not banned.

Still ESC has produced NOTHING as compared to ASC work. Ask yourself this, "Is my desire for POTENTIAL outcomes, over-riding the ACTUAL outcomes? How best to allocate money?" Remember the engineering aphorism, "The Best is the Enemy of the Good Enough."

 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Private funding is drying up.
Why is that?


And I’m not sure you understand the libertarian argument x2master (or you at least dont pay in mind to it, prefering to rail against religious beliefs instead), though pablo does understand it.
 
Written By: ChrisB
URL: http://
ChrisB

Fair enough!
Wont apologize for going against stupid.

Very expensive research is, as for me Im investing in GEDON.

Still no one has offered a debate about will of the majority.

I hear religiousos saying I object to morally and thats that!!No funding!!!
Let me say this when Roe VS Wade occured in 1973 did your temples fall or something?
Did your faith leave you?
Did the world stop functioning in your religious world.Church bells stop ringing? JEESH!!

News flash when they finally do federally fund embryonic research nothing about YOUR religion, YOUR faith, will change unless YOU want it to.

This is no theocracy and there will be things in this land your sensitive ears and eyes may not like, but majority rules.....get over it!!!

This veto stinks . ESC should not be excluded the American public wants it, a vocal minority doesnt......Please see meaning of theocracy and move to one if you want preachers as your leaders.
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Pablo ESC research is NOT out of the mix... you may wish there was more, but research can continue on the 50 families allowable.
The majority of which cannot ever be used for human experimentation because they’re contaminated from the mouse medium they were originally propagated in. This is one of the little wrinkles we found out about from doing research! Mouse medium ruins your lines. So, given that real world constraint, the potential cannot be realized through gov’t funded ESC research. The practical effect is that researchers are either leaving the country or finding other things to work on.

So, the scientists in the field say that isn’t enough. Who knows better than them?
Remember the engineering aphorism, "The Best is the Enemy of the Good Enough."
This isn’t engineering, it’s biomedical research. The aphorism in play at the federal level is "Fund the best science" which is along the lines of the NFL aporism that says "Draft the most talented player available". That is the purpose of the peer reviewed grants process. Except that you can’t get any project funded if you want to use a different, non-contaminated stem cell line, no matter how promising it is.

You’re saying that the 50 lines is "good enough". Do you know what that’s the enemy of?
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
Pablo ESC research is NOT out of the mix... you may wish there was more, but research can continue on the 50 families allowable. Again money is fungible. Take the available federal money, take private money(s) or California’s money(s) and use it for MORE ESC research. All the Fed’s say is tht ESC research is LIMITED, not banned.
Scientist claim the lines are insuffificient and contaminated.(maybe why not too many results)

Sometimes we have to leave science to ...um....scientists!!!

This is bio-medical a little diff from your engineering aphorism, but I understand what you mean.

Research must come before the cure, no matter what.

Off beat but on same topic Joe,do you morally object to the disposal of 10’s of thousands of embryos dumped down the proverbial toilet in the course of producing a viable embryo for impregnation?

Take care



 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
x2master, I’m an atheist.

Pull another argument out of your butt.
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
And gee, this can’t change at the drop of the hat when the next President is elected.

I think there are better things that the Fed gov can be doing then chasing ESC research.
Sometimes we have to leave science to ...um....scientists!!!
And sometimes we have to leave ethics to ...um... other people.

And we are talking about science, we’re talking about funding science.

I’m against the Federal government funding the arts, and education too...
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
And sometimes we have to leave ethics to ...um... other people.
By “other people” you of course mean, “the minority of people”.
"Do you think the federal government should or should not fund research that would use newly created stem cells obtained from human embryos?"
Should: 56%
Should Not: 40%
And Keith, knowing that you were, and still are, a supporter of the Iraq war, why is that you are so quick to spend my money for that risk endeavor, but not for scientific research?

Using the now discredited “smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud”, you could argue that the risk endeavor was worth spending billions and billions of “other people’s money” because it might save millions of lives. Right?
Well how is that any different than ESC research?
It might save millions of lives, right?

How is it different?
Other than, of course, ESC research would be cheaper, less destructive, and less risky. Oh… And that it has widespread support. Which the Iraq war no longer has.

Other than those little things, how is it different?

 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
Again Pablo, x2 you don’t like the Federal 50 lines, you are at PERFECT LIBERTY TO FOUND YOUR OWN. The Fed’s DON’T prohibit this. You have to use your OWN money, that’s all...

This is becoming more and more the Federal Government should pay for it all... and Pablo as to what is it the enemy of, how about the fact that 9 cures are in the works with ASC and that there are 1100-plus test programs in the works, IIRC, for ASC, v. POTENTIAL in ESC programs...You keep looking to the "potential". I keep saying look at the "actual."

It makes more sense to focus money on research that is panning out than research that MIGHT pan out in the future... now if you want to focus on the potential, get PRIVATE investors OR the State of California to provide it. It’s NOT FORBIDDEN.

I will second Keith on it’s not just "Science" X2, it’s Public Policy AND ETHICS. You’re trying to trot out the "white lab coat" technocratic approach, "This is SCIENCE, leave it to the professionals." Two-fold response, again, it’s not "just" Science it impinges on ethics and morality, a white lab coat is NOT authoritative in this debate. Secondly, as the Science and Economics seems to point out the ESC approach is very speculative, right now. So the research OUGHT to focus on the program(s) that are providing pay-out and those are ASC Programs.

Even a Scientist might posit that the vast majority of money ought to go to ASC, use your PRIVATE money for ESC work. Money is fungible, IF there is USD 3 Billion (SWAG amount) available privately for ALL Stem Cell Research, and the Fed’s make available an ADDITIONAL USD 1 Billion, make a case for diversion of USD 1 Billion into ESC research and keep the USD 1 Billion of Federal research in ASC and the 50 famlilies legal. TOTAL Funding increases by USD 1 billion and funding for ESC research will INCREASE. Again, logic suggests that this approach is a viable one and is a viable alternative to your approach.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Well Pogue National Security IS the purview of the Federal government...Scientific Research is NOT.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Point taken, Joe.
However, you did see the poll, right? The majority of Americans believe that the Federal government should fund the research. I realize that is a major inconvenience for your argument, but the numbers don’t lie.

Hell, there are a lot of things the Federal government funds that are outside the purview of the Federal Government. Most of the spending I disagree with, but whudayagunnado?

And it seems odd to cheer this veto as a limit on spending, when the majority of people wish to use these public funds to do research that could be so beneficial. Especially when the President made no secret that he was against this bill for moral reasons, not fiscal, and not scientific.
Judging by the comments here and elsewhere, most supporters of the veto are also against the bill for moral reasons, not fiscal reasons.

For Jon to applaud this unpopular veto as a limit on spending, then turning around and chiding the Dem’s for not wishing to fund the unproven SMD program “despite widespread support” just seems like an odd combination.

 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
And I bet if you took a poll, a majority of people would say the government SHOULD give them $2000 every month.

But, that’s neither here nor there is it.

And by other people I mean, say ethisists, religious scholars, philosophers. You know, people who study ethics.

Pure science can lead you straight to human experiments, for the good of the people of course. Doesn’t mean it should be done on moral grounds.

Poque - maybe Jon was trying to show the hypocracy of using popularity as a reasoning behind funding. After all, according to that poll, 68% support funding research into SDM. Far more then those who claim support of ESC research.
 
Written By: Keith, Indy
URL: http://
Again Pablo, x2 you don’t like the Federal 50 lines, you are at PERFECT LIBERTY TO FOUND YOUR OWN. The Fed’s DON’T prohibit this. You have to use your OWN money, that’s all...
If that’s what I were arguing, this would be a great rejoinder. But I’m not so it’s a non sequitur.
You keep looking to the "potential". I keep saying look at the "actual."
When all you have is a hammer, I guess all the world is your nail. Have they cured diabetes with ASC? No? Well, should we should just give up on it then?

It makes more sense to focus money on research that is panning out than research that MIGHT pan out in the future...


If it’s "panning out" it isn’t research anymore, it’s therapy. (The term, BTW, is "proven") Frankly, this argument is absolute nonsense. The world worked fine when we thought it was flat, right? You don’t know what’s going to work until you do the research. That held just as true for ASC as it does for ESC now. Research got us to the "panning out" point. Most probably FEDERALLY FUNDED RESEARCH.
Well Pogue National Security IS the purview of the Federal government...Scientific Research is NOT.
Joe. I’m only going to say this once more. The National Institutes of Health is a Federal Government apparatus with a $28.5 BILLION DOLLAR budget (FY’07), all of which promotes and funds biomedical research. There are thousands of employees there who will be quite shocked to find that their Federal government jobs are not within the Federal government’s purview.

I’m asking a very simple question and I’m going to ask it directly once more before I give up: Why should stem cell research be restricted from competition for existing federal research grant funding?
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
Even a Scientist might posit that the vast majority of money ought to go to ASC, use your PRIVATE money for ESC work. Money is fungible, IF there is USD 3 Billion (SWAG amount) available privately for ALL Stem Cell Research, and the Fed’s make available an ADDITIONAL USD 1 Billion, make a case for diversion of USD 1 Billion into ESC research and keep the USD 1 Billion of Federal research in ASC and the 50 famlilies legal. TOTAL Funding increases by USD 1 billion and funding for ESC research will INCREASE. Again, logic suggests that this approach is a viable one and is a viable alternative to your approach.
That’s not how it works. The vetoed bill did not appropriate funding for ESC research. It would have simply allowed such proposals to enter the existing funding process and compete for funds that have already been allocated.

If the funding were truly fungible, it wouldn’t matter which research was funded from which sources. But it does. Drugs and devices are favorites of private enterprise because they can make lots of money exclusively. Basic science doesn’t offer that. This is why the Fed and academia funds the vast majority of it.
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://

And it seems odd to cheer this veto as a limit on spending
Pogue, as I mentioned, this was NOT a spending bill and there would never be a spending bill attached to it, unless someone decided to create a National Embyonic Stem Cell Institute within the NIH. Never gonna happen.

There is no savings in this as the pool of available research funds will still be spent. Maybe we’ll get more science that doodles with the human genome than we would have without the veto. But we didn’t save any money with it.
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
x2master, I’m an atheist.

Pull another argument out of your butt.




Ok Im not a scientist but I support it. You are an aetheist and do not support because you do not want the government to spend tax dollars....right?


You are in the vast minority, case closed.
And sometimes we have to leave ethics to ...um... other people.
I would think an ethics panel comprised of Different people of different walks of life maybe elected by the people could do that, but I will never concede to allow ethics to be derived from religion alone.They have not proved themselves worthy.

Name a religion without blood on its hands or a group following a religion who doesnt violate there own texts. NADA.

A democracy does not have to prove itself compatible with religion, a religion must be compatible with the democracy in this case.

The democracy says: FUND embryonic stem cell research
The so called moral religious right: says no.

Democracy should win.Whats wrong with that?
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Gentlemen, what this issue has boiled down to is subsidiarity which is an economic, political, and religious (see Catholic social teaching) issue. The point of most libertarian leaning commenters here, including myself, is that federal government funds should not be spent on research into stem cells. Period. End of line.

For those who advocate spending government money on this (or any other type of research), let your states spend the money. If such an overwhelming tide of people are in favor of it, let them tell their legislators to vote for such a bill. If the legislators reply that they will have to raise taxes to do it, then put your money where your mouth is. Either step up and pay the taxes or shut up about government funding.

This isn’t a difficult concept to wrap your brains around. We keep skewing off into religion v. science debates here and that’s not how I am framing this issue. Others may be, but I’m defending the politico-economic point of view here, not the religious/moral one.

Pogue, just because leviathan exists doesn’t mean we have to keep feeding it, eh?

Pablo, same thing. Just because NIH has a 28 billion dollar budget, or hey let’s get a little crazy with the cheez-whiz and say a 500 trillion dollar budget, doesn’t mean that it should. NIH (like virtually every other federal institution) is like the plant from Little Shop of Horrors. The more money we give it, the more it says, "Feed me Seymour, feed me." I have no problems with state level governments funding just about anything they want to. Hey, fund live cannabilism on tv for all I care. This is a matter for the states (let’s go back to that old raggedy document we call the Constitution). If you insist that the feds and only the feds can fix this, then just go ahead and call yourselves totalitarian collectivists and declare this the People’s Republic of America. Geez.
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: http://
Poet

My congressman and senator did vote for it! Matter of factly the house and senate approved it!

Last time I checked they are my reps in this rep democracy.

The president in his belief vetoed the will of collective representation.WTF?

So now it is an issue to get more reps to counter his veto, or wait untill we elect another president who would not veto.Which means two years wait for research into this new field.

Problem with states deciding their own destiny: take your pick. We need the FED to regulate and sometimes tell states you are doing un contitutional things, IE slavery,labor laws yadi yada.....





 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Bet ya this



If and I say if a substantial breakthrough is made
this issue will become MARKET DRIVEN.Money seems to supercede politics,ethics,morality,and yes even democracy.


Take care
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://

Pablo, same thing. Just because NIH has a 28 billion dollar budget, or hey let’s get a little crazy with the cheez-whiz and say a 500 trillion dollar budget, doesn’t mean that it should.
Poet Omar, I completely get that and deep inside, I agree. But should is sort of out the window here and we’re in the realm of "does". Unless we’re going to undo that, we’re stuck working from here, where we have the NIH and its budget that is it going to spend on research. Again, this is not a proposal to expand that budget. This was a proposal to change the rules as to what applications are acceptable for review/entering the grants process.
The point of most libertarian leaning commenters here, including myself, is that federal government funds should not be spent on research into stem cells. Period.
That should carry across the spectrum of biomedical research, not just SC research, correct?
If and I say if a substantial breakthrough is made
this issue will become MARKET DRIVEN.Money seems to supercede politics,ethics,morality,and yes even democracy.
x2master, the problem with that is that it’s going to be damned tough to patent stem cells. Once there’s a breakthough, people will seek to capitalize on it. That doesn’t necessarily mean a return on research investment for whoever makes the breakthrough.
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
You are an aetheist and do not support because you do not want the government to spend tax dollars....right?
An atheist can’t have a moral or ethical outlook on life?

If you need more lines for research, x2master, get off your *ss, go to the fertility clinics, and ask the folks coming out or going in if they’d like to donate any leftover blastocysts.

Bring your poll along when you do, in case they give you any sh*t.
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
If you need more lines for research, x2master, get off your *ss, go to the fertility clinics, and ask the folks coming out or going in if they’d like to donate any leftover blastocysts.

Bring your poll along when you do, in case they give you any sh*t.
*ROTFLMAO*

I doan t’ink, "Dew eeeet yerself" is a phrase Pablo and X@ unnerstan Mark.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Pablo, yes I support no government spending on this or any other biomed research. As essentially a minarchist, I would be an absolute hypocrite to support government spending on non-night watchman related issues regardless of the potential benefit to humanity. As far as I am concerned it is a matter for the market and the individual states. Those who are so much in favor of this, please take a hint from the folks in California who have already taken steps in the right direction.

X2 : we need the fed? Seems to me California gave the fed the finger regarding this issue. Your local democracy is perfectly well equipped to decide whether or not to spend your money on stem cell research. Why do you insist that the federal leviathan needs to be inolved? Suppose your state, USA decides to spend money on stem cell research. Then suppose uglyneighbor state, USA says no; spending money on such a project is morally/economically/politically reprehensible. So what? Is one state going to sue another to block them spending their own money? Why do we need federal regulation here?
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: http://
Just as I thought dodging the question....keep dancing. I guess as long as the veto supports your view against the majoritys view you can celebrate and say he did the moral thing.
What are polls for if not to feel the pulse of public thinking.


Im not relying on the polls squarely, Im talking about the house and senate vote .

Round and round we go. Bottom line what good is representation ,what good is a vote if one man can speak for us all to kiss the butt of a minority with an opposing moral view only to rally a base that wont be enough to hide the failures of the admin.

I guess if you are a Illegal Mexican homo that likes to burn flags your in deep crap.......... OH my!

Poet,
I wont justify even answering why we need the fed, pick up an American history book about some very stupid state actions.


Im outie!!!!



 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
x2 If you don’t like the idea of one man forcing his will on the majority, then I suppose I should ask your opinion of the court system. Lots of one man rulings that went against popular opinion there, too. And this further strengthens my argument that the feds shouldn’t be involved. If you don’t want the possibility of presidential veto, then keep the matter at the state level.

States can, have, and will continue to do stupid things. That doesn’t mean we need the nanny state to step in and tell us to grow up and run things the way they want us to. Again, if you think the fed should be a nanny state that makes all of our decisions for us and regulates us poor little misguided children at the state level, then by all means move to Europe or Canada or China or any of the other collectivist states.
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: http://
Poet

The proverbial genie is out of the lamp.You can not put it back in.

This is a popular issue with a majority support.The courts have no problem or it would be illegal. The congress passed the legislation based on majority support.

Then one man, Mr Bush using his first and only vetoe goes against that support for a minority moral view. You still dont see anything wrong with that?

For me to accept that would mean to say that the majority is incapable of making this decision.

I am totally accepting of decisions that the majority make even if I disagree with them. Why cant you? Give and take, right?
An atheist can’t have a moral or ethical outlook on life?
Im sorry Flacy I didnt mean to offend you. Some of the most intelligent moral people I know are aetheists and I certainly did not mean to put words in your mouth.

This idea with the fertility clinic is exactly what scientist wanted.To use discarded Embryonic stem cells from new lines that were to be disposed of. Peace!

 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
x2master, the problem with that is that it’s going to be damned tough to patent stem cells. Once there’s a breakthough, people will seek to capitalize on it. That doesn’t necessarily mean a return on research investment for whoever makes the breakthrough.
Awesome point, maybe why private funding is so scant.

 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
I doan t’ink, "Dew eeeet yerself" is a phrase Pablo and X@ unnerstan Mark.
Yeah Ill just get out my check book and write those million dollar checks!!!Joe.

I would if I had the money.If we can kill people with tax dollars we sure could try and heal them with tax dollars.

Thats what the Majority of America decided, dont take it so personal that the will of the people is against your mindset.

 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Hey, how about we prepare for the next pandemic or bio-terror attack with Federal money. If we can’t stop those 2 things, all the stem cell cures in the world aren’t going to help us.

Let Big Medicine develop the miracle cures with their own money.

Written By: Keith, Indy
Keith appears to want all university, foundation, and government R&D ended on cancer research, fusion, space exploration science, nanotechnology, and so on. A bizarre Christian Fundie concept that appears to hold that no intellectual advancement or effort to better mankind should be done unless a corporation can do it in order to make a short-term profit, or a market out of it.

BTW, Keith, you seem to think like so many on the Left, that government is a zero sum game. The argument usually goes that [I secretly hate X - ergo....] Why, oh why, *sniffle, sob* is the Government spending money on X - be it highways, defense, medical research.....when the (1)Precious wee children, The Children!! - have no free breakfasts and not enough free lunch luxury items...and why is the gov’t not fighting the kiddy obesity epidemic; (2)Researchers are not employed by the Government to calculate exactly when the Rapture and End of Times will happen and Jesus will Return; (3) When Katrina victims ever need is still unmet. And so on.

For your info, the US is already spending more on it’s ballooning National Security Bureaucracy than is sustainable in the long term, without major tax increases. Embryonic stem cell treatments could substantially improve the lives of up to 102 million Americans, 2.1 billion people worldwide.

And to turn your own logic back on you, if pandemics and "bioterror" are so important, why aren’t you encouraging the US government to abandon the tens of billions spent so far on it so "private companies can invest and make billions selling cures"???

Joe -
This is about defeating them D@MNED Christians as much as curing Parkinson’s Disease. And if ACTUAL RESULTS are anything to go by it’s MORE about teaching them D@MNED Christians their "place" than finding any cures.
When the Fundies block what 70% of the population wants, darn right they have declared themselves opponents of the rest of the population and should expect not only venomous anger from people and relatives of serious diseases they are thwarting research into - but should expect a very concerted political drive to remove Fundies from political power outside the Bible Belt. Count on "Where you stand on scientific research vs. your own religious faith" to be a commonly asked question in future elections. And I believe their votes on blocking stem cell research just doomed Talent and Burns next election, possibly even Brownback, who unlike Coburn (who I really admire), did not run as a religious Fundie. Santorum is already a dead man walking - he could emerge to campaign drenched in holy water, with an Opus Dei priest on one side of him and Jesus himself on the other, and he’s still lose in Pennsylvania.

And it will be a Presidential election issue. Count on both Parties knowing that 70% of the population, including many of the staunchist conservatives and anti-abortion folks feel STRONGLY about this blocking of the People’s will, and no way will another Bible Thumper be electable as President for a good, long time.

Mark A. Flacy -
If you need more lines for research, x2master, get off your *ss, go to the fertility clinics, and ask the folks coming out or going in if they’d like to donate any leftover blastocysts.

Bring your poll along when you do, in case they give you any sh*t
Actually the depth of Christian Fundie ignorance (OK, in your case RTL atheist (such a rare breed!) ignorance) is such that few who support Bush’s veto of the research bill understand it would have required signed permission of the creators of the blastocysts to transfer unwanted ones to research. Which among those polled who have surplus, unwanted embryos in cryostorage in Europe and America, 60% of couples asked said they’d happily donate their stockpile to research rather than just see them tossed in the garbage. Besides, why ask x2master to ask when the Right to Life fanatics are conflicted themselves? Half want users of in vitro and their doctors executed as "baby-killers" given the high number of unwanted embryos left as future "wastage", while the other half of RTL fanatics are curiously not concerned at all as 20-25,000 test tubes of excess blastocysts are thawed and poured down the clinic sinks toilets every year.

What appears unacceptable to all RTLrs is any use of otherwise discarded embryos that might save lives.

The Fundies "Snowflake" project is not faring too well. Fertile Christian couples have a tendency to want their own kids, not recycle other couple’s discards. 125. 12-13 a year since the RTLrs started pushing it, compared to the 35-37,000 excess embryos created annually in just the USA. And no effort by Fundies to try and rent empty uteruses of poor African, Chinese, or Indian women - or take in an illegal Mexican who could have one of the 400,000 "Blessed Blastocysts of Jesus" now warehoused or awaiting discarding implanted.

Curious, ey?

And no Christian Fundies are out volunteering to take over "cold storage fees" in states where the blastocysts are allowed to be chucked if the in vitro partners stop paying fees.

Tsk! Tsk!





 
Written By: C. Ford
URL: http://
I still note that x2 and CFord seem to focus on PERSONALITIES and just don’t seem to take a whole lot of concern about the Facts on the Ground. AGAIN: ASC Research: 9 Cures seeking FDA approval ESC: 0. ESC research allowed under Federal Funding: Yes. Private investment in ESC drying up, taken not as evidence that the treatment modality is suspect, but rather evidence of INCREASED need for funding. Can’t help you.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
x2 The President is a big boy certainly capable of taking any "heat" that may come his way as a result of this veto. Personally I have no concerns about the veto one way or another. Presidents veto things that are against the will of the majority all the time. If Bush wants to do this, fine let him. If the people storm Captiol Hill in droves and demand Congress override the veto, also fine. I have no problem with that either. If you have such an incredible aversion to "one man" standing in the way of the majority, again I suggest that you take up the fight against the overwhelming tyranny of the US Judicial system, especially the SCOTUS. Do you honestly believe that the majority of Americans support the flagrant abuse of eminent domain laws? The Supreme Court sure as heck does. I would call that a minority of fundamentalist crackpots opposing the will of the majority. Where is the outrage over Kelo?

And while we’re at it, why do you accept simple tyranny of the majority? I’ve heard the arguments from leftists, libertarians, and even some conservatives that tyranny of the majority is a VERY BAD THING. Is your political philosophy dictated by worship of simple majority rule?
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: http://
Poet

The arguement against stem cell research by the presidents own admission is strictly a personal, moral position based on his
religious beliefs
, his words not mine.

If the issue was split say equally divided like 50-50% I would say huh this requires some real thought.Its not its 2 to 1 maybe even more as C Ford states.
And while we’re at it, why do you accept simple tyranny of the majority?
I do not see any tyranny occurring on my block, do you?
I have to (well we all do) to an extent have to have respect for the majority to exist as a democracy.
Im not saying that we should never question or debate , Im saying respect it.

I want Bush to be the President of the United States of America and represent the people and their will, not preach and lecture me about his personal religious beliefs and force it upon me and the others who worked so hard to make something happen in a system we believe in.

If he truly believed in the doctrine of Jesus Christ he would not be a publican, who orders death (although needed sometimes in the real world) , hordes capital, grants favors to the rich, lie, and so on. IF he wanted to be a preacher well thats another story.

For all you out there about to yap off that hes acting on concience for the sake of doing Jesus work Id say crawl under a rock, its better you stay there if you are so blind.



 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
Joe’s non sequiter broken record is regurgitated yet again:

I still note that x2 and CFord seem to focus on PERSONALITIES and just don’t seem to take a whole lot of concern about the Facts on the Ground. AGAIN: ASC Research: 9 Cures seeking FDA approval ESC: 0.
1. When a minority of religious idiots block the majority, a substantial majority of American’s wishes, yes, the tendency is to call them idiots.

2. Did you know in 1940 that there were over 71 approved medical treatments for Sulpha drugs and none, not one for some newfangled expensive mold extract called "antibiotics"?? And furthermore, the US government insisted on pouring resources into it in the middle of wartime despite private industry looking at it and saying that it was unprofitable for them to go into the field?

Don’t you just wish that people would just stick to the Good Book and stop with the new technologies and wasted research that hasn’t made any money - like with cancer research and fusion, Joe?

3. Did you know, Joe, that in 1901 that there were tens of thousands of laws and approvals by government agencies for ship and rail transportation - adequate to take man anywhere on Earth, including where a good horse or dogsled would take them a bit further?

But not a SINGLE approval for "air use"?

25,000-30,000 to 0!! Zero approvals for an unproven new technology!

[And that is where your non-sequiter is, Joe. The assumption that any new technology must be bad, even if it turns out to be vastly superior to existing civilizational tools, simply because at the dawn of it it has "Zero government approvals for use" or "zero rich private investors" ]

If Jesus had meant man to fly, wouldn’t HE have given them wings??? And air transport was purely a government thing until commercial investors came in a decade and a half later. And many in the Bible Belt staring out of their shacks thought airplanes ungodly and unbiblical examples of "Man’s Unjust Pride". It was just back then, the Evangelicals had near Zero power to block the development and government support of aviation. The decision makers were all in the Eastern Establishment, educated South, and California. They didn’t care what the barefoot rube Fundies thought.

Good thing, too!

Joe again -
Private investment in ESC drying up, taken not as evidence that the treatment modality is suspect, but rather evidence of INCREASED need for funding
1. No, apparantly the Fundies have created a legal situation where research labs that get Federal Funds for other projects or for basic research support infrastructure like DNA sequencing machinery, bioinformatics programs, glassware, super computers are scared to death some rube Christian Senator will find out that a federally-funded Petri dish used for battlefield blood clotting agent research was inadvertently re-used for embryonic studies, jeopardizing Federal funds for other research, which most Fundies fail to realize happens at the premiere labs where university, Federal, foundation, private capital is commonly pooled. Labs that want to do research are being scared off by the prospect of the Religious Right pulling their other funding if cross-use is found. Pulling Fed funds jeopardizes private investment except in states like California, which is trying to create a firewall between themselves and any attack avenue Bush or the Fundies could use. Some labs currently doing embryonic stem cell research actually have police tape segregating Fundie approved research from their "Satanic" work to save American lives.

2. Another reason funding is drying up is because the Fundies have created a hostile investing climate to research in America, a lot of the private investment money is going overseas to Japan, UK, S Korea, Russia, China, and Sweden - where hopes of creating a great 21st Century revolution in medicine led by one or more of those nations is forming...and who also hope for an end to American preeminance in medical research.
 
Written By: C. Ford
URL: http://
2. Another reason funding is drying up is because the Fundies have created a hostile investing climate to research in America, a lot of the private investment money is going overseas to Japan, UK, S Korea, Russia, China, and Sweden - where hopes of creating a great 21st Century revolution in medicine led by one or more of those nations is forming...and who also hope for an end to American preeminance in medical research
This really worries me. We can not let this happen.

Truly informative C.FORD. Didnt realize the extent of an organized impediment the labs faced involving fed funding.
 
Written By: x2master
URL: http://
The assumption that any new technology must be bad, even if it turns out to be vastly superior to existing civilizational tools, simply because at the dawn of it it has "Zero government approvals for use" or "zero rich private investors"
Bingo! Though I might replace "bad" with "useless" since that seems to be the point Joe is attempting to make.

It really is an idiotic argument, Joe. Especially when your examples are "pending approval" which is to say that they are "not approved".

But, perhaps they will be approved. You know what they’ll (They being the Federal Government) do to decide whether to approve them? They’re going to review the RESEARCH.

As for the "do it yourself", perhaps we can. If we can all just get our $28.5 bilion back from that Federal agency which is tasked with doing it for us with our money, then we can all "do it ourself".

Hell, I’m not planning on getting AIDS, and I don’t plan on going to Africa. Gimme back my money and let them cure it themselves.
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
Pablo, yes I support no government spending on this or any other biomed research. As essentially a minarchist, I would be an absolute hypocrite to support government spending on non-night watchman related issues regardless of the potential benefit to humanity.
Poet Omar, that’s logical, consistent and it’s textbook libertarian. Of course, it’s light years away from the world we actually live in, but that’s another discussion. Well stated.
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://
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Written By: OOOYY
URL: http://

 
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