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BMW: Hydrogen power is here
Posted by: McQ on Wednesday, September 13, 2006

Hello OPEC?
BMW will roll out the world's first hydrogen-burning car in serial production early next year, the German premium automaker said on Tuesday, eager to put its stamp on cars with green credentials.

The specially equipped 7-Series executive cars emit only water vapor when running on hydrogen.

The car hits the market next April and will be shown at the Los Angeles car show in November, the company said. It had said in March the hydrogen cars would arrive within two years.

A spokesman said the car would be leased to selected customers rather than sold because of its high price. Leasing rates would be similar to those for a top-end BMW 760LI with a full-service package.

The BMW 7 Series Hydrogen 7 Saloon is powered by a 260 hp twelve-cylinder engine and accelerates from 0-100 km/h (62 mph) in 9.5 seconds. Top speed is limited electronically to 230 km/h.

BMW has said it intends to build a few hundred such cars at first. They will be able to switch between burning standard petrol and hydrogen so that drivers will not be left stranded while the infrastructure to deliver hydrogen is built up.
Now its simply a matter of time and market pressure. Obviously, given the acceleration and top speed, the technology is there. It's a matter of the fuel and its availability. And with BMW introducing a production model, and the high price of oil, we should assume that other manufacturers will be just as eager to get hydrogen models out as well.

Water vapor. I like it. Wonder how the government will figure out how to tax hydrogen. Wonder how much it will cost to fill up? Wonder what oil producers will be doing in, oh, about 10 years?
 
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If technology stands still, oil producers will be selling their product to electrical and hydrogen-generating plants, which have to get their energy from somewhere.

Or to China and India. They wouldn’t mind.
 
Written By: sammler
URL: http://stonecity.blogspot.com
Switching to hydrogen will actually increase fossil fuel usage. OPEC and the oil companies will be very happy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
An accounting of the energy utilized during a thermodynamic process, known as an energy balance, can be applied to automotive fuels. With today’s technology, the manufacture of hydrogen via steam reforming can be accomplished with a thermal efficiency of 75 to 80 percent. Additional energy will be required to liquefy or compress the hydrogen, and to transport it to the filling station via truck or pipeline. The energy that must be utilized per kilogram to produce, transport and deliver hydrogen (i.e., its well-to-tank energy use) is approximately 50 megajoules. Subtracting this energy from the enthalpy of one kilogram of hydrogen, which is 141 megajoules, and dividing by the enthalpy, yields a thermal energy efficiency of roughly sixty percent (Kreith, 2004). Gasoline, by comparison, requires less energy input, per gallon, at the refinery, and comparatively little energy is required to transport it and store it owing to its high energy density per gallon at ambient temperatures. Well-to-tank, the supply chain for gasoline is roughly 80 percent efficient (Wang, 2002)
,

IMHO Hydrogen is another P.T. Barnum slight of hand scam.
 
Written By: Jay Evans
URL: http://
What Jay and Sammler said, PLUS if it’s all just this easy, how come ony BMW is whipping out the production version? GM and others have been looking at this off and on for decades, and yet no one is driving hydrogen cars. This is like the Trophy APS, it SOUNDS kewl, and it might BE kewl, but I’m not holding my breath.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
"Wonder how the government will figure out how to tax hydrogen."

Not long, I’m sure.
 
Written By: Brad Warbiany
URL: http://unrepentantindividual.com/
Switching to hydrogen will actually increase fossil fuel usage.
Only if you assume that nuclear plants are off the table.
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
"Water vapor. I like it." Who wouldn’t...until winter....

Not to pick but 0-62mph in 9.5 seconds would make expressway merging a chore. Also, driving such an underpowered vehicle at 5,000ft above sea level or higher would be painstaking.
 
Written By: markm
URL: http://
I believe that the major difficulty with hydrogen fueled vehicles will be the need to develop a safe, nationwide infrastructure to support the technology. Hydrogen fill-up stations in every neighborhood with a delivery system to keep them supplied with fuel — quite an enormous undertaking. And how will these stations store the hydrogen....in pressurized tanks? What environmental risks would such pose? Just asking....
 
Written By: RAZ
URL: http://
Only if you assume that nuclear plants are off the table
Even if started today (not happening) it would be 15-20 years minimum before nuclear plants could come on-line with even a small percentage of the power needed.

Mazda has been way out in front on a hydrogen powered car.

MAZDA DELIVERS FIRST ROTARY HYDROGEN VEHICLES TO CORPORATE CUSTOMER FLEETS

MAZDA HYDROGEN FILLING STATION GIVEN THE GREEN LIGHT
 
Written By: Jay Evans
URL: http://
Water vapor is not environmentally friendly, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Agency:
Water Vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas in the atmosphere ... As a greenhouse gas, the higher concentration of water vapor is then able to absorb more thermal IR energy radiated from the Earth, thus further warming the atmosphere. The warmer atmosphere can then hold more water vapor and so on and so on. This is referred to as a ’positive feedback loop’.
This will not sit well with global warming enthusiasts. I can here it now:

"IT’S ALL ABOUT THE HYDROGEN!! NO BLOOD FOR HYDROGEN!!"


 
Written By: MichaelW
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
Zero to sixty in 9 seconds or so seems the average performance of an econobox NOW, and is certainly on par with the average minivan. (My rather mild hotrod GMC Safari runs it in about 7 seconds and would do better if I hadn’t stuffed the taller 3:42 tailgears in it to get that extra couple of MPG.) That you would need a BMW 12 cyl mill to get that kind of performance speaks to a much smaller amount of power available on the given fuel. (the amount of torque coming off that thing must be abysmal!) Still, it SOUNDS workable, assuming RAZ’s point is dealt with...

Even assuming that the technology is there... (And BMW coughing up a limited number of examples is by no means proof of THAT)... you still have the issue of being able to fuel the thing on every other street corner in America. Thta’s not happening in just a few short years. Look at how long it took us to get to unleaded fuel.. and THAT didn’t require us to set up a whole ’nother infrastructure.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitheads.blogspot.com
We could jump-start the new Hydrogen-economy with fossil fuels, then, as basic demand is met, build up national H2 reserves with a steady stream of photovoltaic, hydroelectric and nuclear energy, depending on each region’s resources.

This regional redundancy would leave us poised to wean ourselves off the petroleum sources as they wane.
-Steve
 
Written By: Steve
URL: http://
Wonder what oil producers will be doing in, oh, about 10 years?

They’ll be making jet fuel, plastics, drugs and the like?
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Even if started today (not happening) it would be 15-20 years minimum before nuclear plants could come on-line with even a small percentage of the power needed.
Not if this was made a national priority.
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
Then we can listen to left-wingers whine about "big hydrogen" instead of "big oil." At least they’ll shut up about Exxon’s "windfall" 10% profit margin.
 
Written By: Jordan
URL: http://
Not if this was made a national priority.


No chance of that happening, so back to reality.
 
Written By: Jay Evans
URL: http://
How did Bush know to back hydrogen ?

Or did BMW pickup of Bush Administration rhetoric.
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
Of course, you can make hydrogen from water using electricty made from coal/oil/gas/nuclear.

Does this make it coal/oil/gas/nuclear powered ?
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
Faster please.

Now, we get the power structure to be 70% nuclear, 20% hydro and 10%other, and we’re sitting pretty.
 
Written By: Techie
URL: http://
I want my Hy-Wire now. :)

Anyway, hydrogen is only one way to store power. As the capacity of batteries evolves we may not even need to convert water to hydrogen. Either way we still need to increase the production of power relying less on fossil fuel, especially oil. And maybe moving to a hydrogen economy will help foster that along.

We can build more nuclear power plants for the increase power demand. I envision fuel stations with solar reflectors and windmills to help augment the production of hydrogen using well water. Or maybe where batteries are charged for when drivers come by to swap out their battery for a fresh fully charged one.

Anyway, people need to start moving to electric cars to force the power companies to deal with the extra demand. I hope Telsa Motors or someone will come along and starts selling them to us consumers of modest means. I won’t buy a hybrid since it still relies on gasoline to charge its batteries (I doubt breaking to charge the battery has much impact if at all).

 
Written By: Alan
URL: http://
"...eager to put its stamp on cars with green credentials. The specially equipped 7-Series executive cars emit only water vapor when running on hydrogen."

This would be comical, if the underlying ignorance were not so profound. I don’t suppose that anyone bothered to mention the fact that water vapor is by far the most prevalent greenhouse gas in the atmosphere. CO2 doesn’t amount to a f*rt in a tornado compared to the effect of water vapor.

Replacing CO2 emitting vehicles with H2O vapor emitting vehicles is not "green". It’s just plain stupid.
 
Written By: Suspicious Package
URL: http://
Michael,

Given suspicious packages response you nailed it.
 
Written By: Lance
URL: www.asecondhandconjecture.com
Replacing CO2 emitting vehicles with H2O vapor emitting vehicles is not "green". It’s just plain stupid.
Oh? CO2 naturally condenses out of the atmosphere? Why, I never knew!

BTW, there’s a saturation point for the amount of water the air can hold.
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
BTW, there’s a saturation point for the amount of water the air can hold.

You FOOL! Look at the Atlantic Ocean, Atlantis used hydrogen cars too, and now look at their saturation point problem!
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
I’m not sure an internal combustion engine with H2 pumped in place of gas will be free of pollutants. It may be free of C02, but there’s more to it than that.

A fuel cell may be somewhat more pollutant free.

But neither of those cuts our dependance of oil in the way necessary unless we have such an abundance of nuclear power it is economic to extract H2 from water.

Storing H2 has it problems. They aren’t environmental as much as they are safety.

I remember a report from a Toronto experimental H2 fill station which had an accident about 15 years ago. I was sort of expecting a burned out hulk of a gas station. Instead I saw only the slightest evidence something was burned. Instead you saw a debris filled crater where the station was.
 
Written By: jpm100
URL: http://
"Zero to sixty in 9 seconds or so seems the average performance of an econobox NOW, and is certainly on par with the average minivan."

I have a Volvo that dreams of getting to 60 in 9 seconds. I dream of a new car, but the d*amn thing won’t wear out.

"BTW, there’s a saturation point for the amount of water the air can hold."

I hope never to reach that point. I don’t know where you live, but high humidity in the summer is a mother.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
A buddy of mine and I were discussing hydrogen cars, and he brought up what I thought was a pretty good crater-in-the-street argument: What happens when you have a wreck? Hydrogen cars aren’t any better at avoiding collisions, but they seem like they’d be a whole lot better at exploding when they were in one. Anybody know if there are safety features to prevent a low speed collision from turning into a casualty list?
 
Written By: Gil
URL: http://
I have a Volvo that dreams of getting to 60 in 9 seconds. I dream of a new car, but the d*amn thing won’t wear out.
(Chuckle)

Yeah. I had a boss with a ’76 244... a red one.. and the thing wasn’t even THAT fast. Of course, he got 247,000 outta the thing before it went to it’s reward, years ago.

By the way, in case you didn’t understand this, you get more of a trade-in BEFORE you wear it out....(Chuckle)



 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitheads.blogspot.com
Gee, the article doesn’t say anything on how many miles the car can get on a full tank of hydrogen. Or how expensive the car is, for that matter. What a surprise.

Don’t go thumbing your nose at OPEC just yet.
 
Written By: Mariner
URL: http://www.concordparty.org
Uh, wasn’t the Hindenberg filled with Hydrogen? Seriously, if you slam that BMW into a tree, what is to prevent it from turning into an inferno? I am more than happy to transition away from oil as a primary energy source, but until something really innovative comes along that is also economically feasible and reasonably safe we should focus on exploiting our own sources of petroleum. ie. ANWR, Gulf of MX, etc. I’m pretty sure we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
 
Written By: froggy
URL: http://
A byproduct of nuclear power production is hydrogen. It is presently considered a waste product.

Also an unintended consequence of hydrogen power is wet, slippery highways. Heavy rain washes off the "milk" on the highways; this moisture will remain and create "milk" which is a result of the action of the vehicle’s tires mixing the oil residue from the oil from the wear of tires on the pavement with the moisture. Oil and water will mix for a short period of time and it is white in color. It is used commercially as a coolent/lubricant in thin wall pipe production.

As an aside, the use of 10% alcohol instead of MTBE will result in older vehicle’s gas filters being clogged from the cleaned fuel tank and line deposits. It is a gradual change and will be noticed when you need power as I discovered while climbing a very steep grade in my RV some years ago when ethanol was available. I can imagine the cost next year as many American cars start sputtering in the passing lane. Unintended consequences can be fatal.
.
 
Written By: AMR
URL: http://
Uh, wasn’t the Hindenberg filled with Hydrogen?
So was the Graf Zep, which flew around the world without a problem.

Hydrogen isn’t explosive. Hyrdrogen and oxygen mixed is. Like gasonline vapor and oxygen.
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
Hydrogen as a point-of-use fuel would provide greater flexibility in choosing alternative primary sources (nuclear, coal, natural gas, etc.). In this sense, it offers the same advantages as batteries.

Unfortunately, legal liability issues will probably outweigh technical considerations in the near term. Consider: petroleum technology evolved back when there was some common sense in liability law, and the inevitable failures and risks of new technology could be addressed without technologists facing devastating lawsuits. Today, any failure of H power that results in harm—and it will happen—will bring the shysters.

Absent tort reform, it may simply be too late to develop any alternative automotive energy storage technology other than well-sealed batteries. (And, considering Dell’s recent recall of the Sony laptop batteries, that might be a challenge as well.)

s.t.
 
Written By: s.t.
URL: http://www.siftedtruth.com
all you are morons and know nothing about cars
 
Written By: jimmy
URL: http://

 
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