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French confront Israelis tank to tank
Posted by: McQ on Friday, September 29, 2006

Now France has essentially made it clear that it won't confront Hezbollah:
The French general commanding U.N. peacekeeping forces in Lebanon said Monday his troops would not intervene to disarm Hezbollah, even as French President Jacques Chirac said the militant group should not keep a military wing.
But apparently Israel is another matter:
UN and Israeli tanks have been involved in a brief face-off on a road in southern Lebanon where the Israeli army has been setting up checkpoints.

Four French Leclerc tanks with UN peacekeepers moved up the hill to stand 500 meters (yards) from the entrance to the border village of Marwaheen, as two Israeli Merkava tanks operated nearby on Lebanese soil.
Interesting.
 
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Now’s a good time to remind ourselves of what we expected from the French and the UN in the first place.
 
Written By: OrneryWP
URL: http://
The LeClerc versus the Merkava....depending on the model of Merkava it might prove...interesting.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Perhaps that is why France agreed to take part in the UN effort; a chance to stick it to Israel with the blessing of the UN et al. Too cynical? Probably.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
So, if Israel blows a LeClerc to kingdom-gone are they attacking France, or the UN?
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
"To avoid clashes sometimes you have to dissuade (the other side) by demonstrating you are stronger," the minister said

A tank shell to the head demonstrates strength even better than calling them names while hiding behind a big tank. Its like the french in Monty Python.....
 
Written By: josh b
URL: http://
The LeClerc versus the Merkava....depending on the model of Merkava it might prove...interesting.
The LeClerc can go REALLY fast in reverse. As King Arthur (the Python one) would say - RUN A-WAYYYYYYYY!!!!
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
The LeClerc can go REALLY fast in reverse. As King Arthur (the Python one) would say - RUN A-WAYYYYYYYY!!!!
That reminds me of the joke about the M1 vs. the T72 during GWI. It was claimed that the war pointed out the T72 was missing one vital piece of equipment and that caused a significant deficiency in its performance.

Back up lights - because that’s what it mostly did the entire war.

 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
I’d suspect that this is a local situation, not a general policy of french confrontation.
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
You all will talk bad about the French... they are a fine crew, as long as you measure victories in MORAL victories, to be distinguished from REAL victories.

The reality is, "confronting" Israeli tanks is a LOT safer than confronting Hizb’Allah...the Israelis probably aren’t going to take a shot at you, the same can not be said of Hizb’Allah. I don’t mean that in a "Frenchmen are cowards" way, just that IF you’re interested in being perceived as "doing something constructive" in Lebanon it’s safer and easier to confront a National Actor like Israel than Hizb’Allah. You get points for "caring" but yu don’t get an RPG shoved up your @r$e.

Plus it gives the LeClerc a useful "live fire" exercise to work out the kinks, develop a reputation for later arms sales, and give Lebanon 13 tanks when they leave, no doubt ensuring FUTURE LeClerc sales from France.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
I’d suspect that this is a local situation, not a general policy of french confrontation.
As opposed to the general policy of nonconfrontation with Hezbollah and no record of it either.

Must be one funky ROE they’ve cobbled together.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Must be one funky ROE they’ve cobbled together.

All I can say is McQ IF their conduct and ROE’s in Lebanon are anythng like they were in Cote d’Ivoir I pity any crowds of civilians that confront the French units...also I would lock my dughters up around the UN troops. Though to be fair in Congo the locals are relatively unarmed and in Lebanon their are PLENTY of weapons. So, if the UN troops behave as they have in the Blakans or Africa, the local parents might just sort the issue out themselves, without recourse to complaining to Kofi Annan.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Must be one funky ROE they’ve cobbled together.
It’s quite simple: they are only permitted to confront enemies who won’t shoot back.
 
Written By: Jordan
URL: http://
French Leclerc tank :
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/leclerc.htm

see it in action :
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/231894/leclerc_tank/

quite impressive
 
Written By: Steve
URL: http://
As part of our gunnery drills in Germany in the early 1980’s, we’d project images of various AFVs and have our TCs/gunners yell "Kill" or "No Kill" depending upon the vehicle.

The first time we projected an image of a French tank, they yelled "Kill". When we told them that was a French tank, the reply was "We know that."
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
As part of our gunnery drills in Germany in the early 1980’s, we’d project images of various AFVs and have our TCs/gunners yell "Kill" or "No Kill" depending upon the vehicle.

The first time we projected an image of a French tank, they yelled "Kill". When we told them that was a French tank, the reply was "We know that."
It is to laugh.....
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
FYI the Leclerc would crush even the latest of the lame Merkava tank.
Otherwise the french are here to guard the border and they do their job.
French-haters are pitiful and brainwashed ignorant bigots, no doubt that there are some of them here.
 
Written By: Sensi
URL: http://
FYI the Leclerc would crush even the latest of the lame Merkava tank.
Sensi it is even MORE to laugh! The LeClerc is a fine, if UNTESTED combat vehicle. The Merkava is hardly lame, and the Merkava 4 carries the same tube as the LeClerc, so it comes down to crew really.
Otherwise the french are here to guard the border and they do their job.
Yeah but that’s the RUB isn’t, what exactly IS the French mission, guard the peace or guard Hizb’Allah?
French-haters are pitiful and brainwashed ignorant bigots, no doubt that there are some of them here.
As Rick said to Ugatti in Casablanca, "You DESPISE me, don’t you Rick? / If I thoguht about I probably would." I don’t HATE France, they seldom rise to the level of notice one way or the other, more like Contempt, Contumely, and Scant Regard (via Shakespeare) when I bother think of htem at all. Now the crowds in Cote D’Ivoire might actively HATE the French.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
"The LeClerc is a fine, if UNTESTED combat vehicle. The Merkava is hardly lame, and the Merkava 4 carries the same tube as the LeClerc, so it comes down to crew really."

Yep same gun for the latest Merkava, but while there is a moron to reload the gun on the Merkava, the other autoload at high speed and shoot-on-the-run to own you badly. For the rest you will find all the relevant information on wikipedia.

cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leclerc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava

"what exactly IS the French mission, guard the peace or guard Hizb’Allah?"

The french mission is to guard the border against cross border attempt from both sides, simple, isn’t it?

"Now the crowds in Cote D’Ivoire might actively HATE the French."

As far as i know, the only crowd in the ivory coast that ’hated’ the french soldiers -helping the UN force- were the low-life thugs and milicians under drugs of Gbagbo the national-socialist racist and xenophobic wannabe dictator, not really civilians FYI.
 
Written By: Sensi
URL: http://
Yep same gun for the latest Merkava, but while there is a moron to reload the gun on the Merkava, the other autoload at high speed and shoot-on-the-run to own you badly. For the rest you will find all the relevant information on wikipedia.
A MORON, indeed...so the rest of the West, not the WTO, has FOUR crewman, the one of whom is the loader who never breaks down, never feeds the gunner’s arm into the breach, have FOUR crew to maintain complex pieces of machinery whereas the French have a SMALLER crew to maintain a complex vehicle that has ONE MORE COMPLEX PIECE OF MACHINERY? OK, but the school is still out on the decision to field 4 or 3 man crews. It could work, as I say it’s UNTESTED. And BTW, the Merkava has a shoot-on-the-move capacity as well.
The french mission is to guard the border against cross border attempt from both sides, simple, isn’t it?
But NOT to disarm Hizb’Allah, the folks who broke the tenuous peace the last time and who proclaim their desire to DESTROY Eretz Ysrael. So, the cynic in me feels that La Belle Pays is really there protecting Hizb’Allah.
As far as i know, the only crowd in the ivory coast that ’hated’ the french soldiers -helping the UN force- were the low-life thugs and milicians under drugs of Gbagbo the national-socialist racist and xenophobic wannabe dictator, not really civilians FYI.
Oh and I guess that unarmed crowd outside the French Embassy in Cote D’Ivoire were thugs...but UNARMED folks, thugs or not, are still not legitimate targets for automatic weapons fire from the Troupes Marins.....
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Wikipedia, always a totally accurate source of information.

and the Merkava was specifically designed to help keep that ’moron’ reloading the gun alive along with all his buddies.
Given the Israeli experience, I’d take the average Israeli crews over the French crews any day.

I also note that the French are back to their old small crew games from prior to the 2nd World War. Sensi, you might want to check out how well the busy French crews did in their 3 man vehicles against in many cases inferior German vehicles with larger crews.
Let’s just say France ’40 demonstrated larger crews seemed to work better.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
World Trade Organization?

FYI the merkava can’t shoot on a target while moving at 50 km/h, it can shoot-on-the-move but at 15 km/h and it can’t reload while on move... woohoo.

"the folks who broke the tenuous peace the last time"

I don’t know what you call "peace" while the killing and assassination of opponents, between others civilians, occurs all the year long.

French ambassy? i can’t remember such event, maybe you can provide me a link, otherwise there was -as far as i remember- an event around an hotel where your ’unarmed folks’, within others ’protestors’ of the Gbagbo kind, had ak47.
 
Written By: Sensi
URL: http://
@ Looker, hahaha, i am not here to defend the french, but the whole europe get owned by the nazi blitzkrieg, the brits had to flew at cherbourg and the USA would have been owned pretty quickly if they were on this part of the map.
 
Written By: Sensi
URL: http://
French-haters are pitiful and brainwashed ignorant bigots, no doubt that there are some of them here.
Brilliant ... just freakin’ brilliant.

Commenters like this only show up once in a hundred years!








Thank goodness.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
@ McQ

It is the first or second part of my statement that you disagree?

Haha, I will try to reformulate my statement:
French-haters are pitiful and brainwashed ignorant bigots, is there one of them here?

From some of the ridiculous prejudices that i have read here, i can easily say yes.

On another topic, toward Israel policies zealots, they will surely remember that France was the first country to help Israel to get their nuclear bomb.
 
Written By: Sensi
URL: http://
World Trade Organization?
For the Children, Warsaw Treaty Organization, founded 1955.
FYI the merkava can’t shoot on a target while moving at 50 km/h, it can shoot-on-the-move but at 15 km/h and it can’t reload while on move... woohoo.
Don’t know the M-1 manages to do it, the Leopard 2 manages to do it...I’d imagine the Jew-boys can manage it too.
I don’t know what you call "peace" while the killing and assassination of opponents, between others civilians, occurs all the year long.
Really so the Israelis were killing civilians all the time, ok technically true in that Hizb’Allah are ALL civilians, but they are not NON-combatants.
French ambassy? i can’t remember such event, maybe you can provide me a link, otherwise there was -as far as i remember- an event around an hotel where your ’unarmed folks’, within others ’protestors’ of the Gbagbo kind, had ak47.

Really because the video simply has the French opening fire on the crowd of protestors...to be fair video can lie.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
is that something the French are proud of? Giving israel the ability to commit mass genocide? a country that has ethnically cleansed and deported millions of Palestiniens in the zionist belief that they actually are preferred by God and therefore have the right to crush Palestinians underfoot should not posses the atom bomb. In the past thirty years all israel has done is used the most advanced weaponry in the world to opress the palestinians who are armed with rocks and ak47s. wait till israel faces a sophisticated and trained army instead of rock throwing children.
 
Written By: radical socialist
URL: http://
Hello again joe,

Ok for your WTO, i was wondering if you meant NATO.

I was speaking of the 200+ palestinians killed in Gaza the month before the isrealis-hezbollah-lebanese infrastructure war, you know: the whole picture.

I remember this -partial- video (you see a guy with a hole in his head) and i also have watched others videos which gave a better (un-cuted) overall picture of this event, there was also an UN report following this event if i remember correctly, that taken place in front of an hotel where some foreigners-looking civilians (US citizens included) were protected against the crowd of rapists and murderers who were chasing after "the whites" the night before. The full version (you have only see the one provided and edited by the Gbagbo’s FPI propagandists that was sent to a lot of media outlets) would have made the event and the people holding weapons (ak47 and guns) clearer.
 
Written By: Sensi
URL: http://
"is that something the French are proud of?"

I don’t think that the french are proud of it, i guess that as far as the israelis don’t use it they can live with it, but it may question people that have the habit to always write (see within the first posts here) that the french policy is always against Israel think twice before repeating their piteous litany.
 
Written By: Sensi
URL: http://
@ radical socialist

I share a lot of your disgust concerning this topic, i went to Israel and the occupied territories in 2002 thus i know a bit what is the reality there, contrary to a lot of the israelis policies zealots that have only one side of the story in their american ’free press’, sometimes they are just either racist or stuck in their post 9/11 trauma ’all arabs are muslims and all muslims are natural born terrorists’. I have a lot of arab and jewish friends and if i had to summarize my opinion, my support go to the moderates -of good faith and intellectually honests- on both sides.
 
Written By: Sensi
URL: http://
country that has ethnically cleansed and deported millions of Palestiniens in the zionist belief that they actually are preferred by God and therefore have the right to crush Palestinians underfoot should not posses the atom bomb.
Actually the number is a few hundred thousand and even then to be fair the Palestinians LEFT. The question is was Deir Yassin a deliberate policy or not?

In the past thirty years all israel has done is used the most advanced weaponry in the world to opress the palestinians who are armed with rocks and ak47s.
Really so that whole No Peace, No Recognition No Negotiation was a good plan? And I guess those PLO rockets from Lebanon, and the death of Leon Klinghoffer and hundreds of others at the hands of Fatah was ALL good, then? Radical Socialist you really make me laugh...The Palestinians aren’t the Oppressed Other, they are a group that has never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
wait till israel faces a sophisticated and trained army instead of rock throwing children.
You mean the VOGONS are going to show up? Because Israel is surrounded by some pretty sad armies. But to Israel’s credit they have faced some fairly MASSIVE armies and destroyed them. So I guess it’ll be a while. Yet you say it with such glee...and this REAL army, does it get to make a secular Palestine or is it OK if it simply drives the Joooos into the sea?
I was speaking of the 200+ palestinians killed in Gaza the month before the isrealis-hezbollah-lebanese infrastructure war, you know: the whole picture.
Dude sad to say I missed the 200 dead Palestinians in Gaza...do you mean the Hamas/Al-Aqsa Martyr’s they have been killed and the very few collateral civilian deaths... you know the deaths of folks who really don’t mind targeting Sbarro Pizzarias and Seders? Do you mean that WHOLE picture, you include the Palestinians killed by their own ordnance on the beach in Gaza, too, right?
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
@ Joe

I include all the people you mentioned but i made a mistake in my number, 200+ was for the whole summer including during and after the lebanon war, concerning your "very few collateral civilian deaths", in reality half the people killed were people not taking part in any hostility.

Otherwise some quotes always good to remember...

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
— David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
— David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
— David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.
 
Written By: Sensi
URL: http://
"The reality is, "confronting" Israeli tanks is a LOT safer than confronting Hizb’Allah"

Right up until the time the Israelis decide they do not want to play anymore.

*****************************************
" So, if the UN troops behave as they have in the Blakans or Africa, the local parents might just sort the issue out themselves, without recourse to complaining to Kofi Annan. "

Yes, that might be amusing. Perhaps they will ask the Israelis for help.


************************
"French-haters are pitiful and brainwashed ignorant bigots, is there one of them here?"

Sure, why not? Onion soup sucks! Australia makes better wine! Brie bites!

***************

"Don’t know the M-1 manages to do it, the Leopard 2 manages to do it...I’d imagine the Jew-boys can manage it too."

They probably stole the technology.

******************
This whole "my gun is bigger than your gun" schtick is ridiculous. Once you young bucks get some maturity, you will realize, as I do, that it is not the size of your equipment, it is how you use it.

*******************
"the zionist belief that they actually are preferred by God"

Why should they be any more humble than anyone else?

*******************************

"Commenters like this only show up once in a hundred years
Thank goodness"

Where is your sense of humour? Large, slow moving targets like that are a gift. Enjoy and give thanks. The only sour note is that they can vote. If they can find the polling place.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Tank ... Hate ... War ... Weapon... Bashing ....

please:
Respect, peace, friendship


From France.
 
Written By: Steve
URL: http://
radical socialist,
Giving israel the ability to commit mass genocide? a country that has ethnically cleansed and deported millions of Palestiniens in the zionist belief that they actually are preferred by God and therefore have the right to crush Palestinians underfoot should not posses the atom bomb.
The only place that has been ethnically cleansed in the "occupied territories" is Gaza, of Jews. Although they’re not very welcome in the West Bank, either, like Arabs are in Israel. And how about some details on those millions of deported Palestinians? How is that genocide going? Will they ever get anywhere near the birth rate? Can’t the Palis just send more children into combat situations until they get into a negative population situation? The Jews are doing a pretty lousy job of genocide, left to their own devices.

Last question: Are you a liar or a blithering idiot?
 
Written By: Pablo
URL: http://

 
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