Meta-Blog

SEARCH QandO

Email:
Jon Henke
Bruce "McQ" McQuain
Dale Franks
Bryan Pick
Billy Hollis
Lance Paddock
MichaelW

BLOGROLL QandO

 
 
Recent Posts
The Ayers Resurrection Tour
Special Friends Get Special Breaks
One Hour
The Hope and Change Express - stalled in the slow lane
Michael Steele New RNC Chairman
Things that make you go "hmmmm"...
Oh yeah, that "rule of law" thing ...
Putting Dollar Signs in Front Of The AGW Hoax
Moving toward a 60 vote majority?
Do As I Say ....
 
 
QandO Newsroom

Newsroom Home Page

US News

US National News
Politics
Business
Science
Technology
Health
Entertainment
Sports
Opinion/Editorial

International News

Top World New
Iraq News
Mideast Conflict

Blogging

Blogpulse Daily Highlights
Daypop Top 40 Links

Regional

Regional News

Publications

News Publications

 
Eurabia?
Posted by: McQ on Monday, October 23, 2006

Two things caught my attention concerning Islam and Europe.

One is a general discussion here about the use of the "veil" and how most European states are insisting that it isn't consistent with European culture.

In some places it has been outlawed, others banned, and for the most part it is not welcome, at least in areas of public/governmental jobs such as teaching.

Now someone correct me (Omar?) but it is my understanding that the veil, per se, is not a Muslim requirement as I see it characterized, but rather an Arabic custom. True? I also see the veil (niqab) and the head scarf used interchangably when talking about this. I want to be clear here that I'm talking about the veil. Personally I have no problem with the head scarf (anymore than I do a Yamaka or a Christian cross).

However, the veil presents a different problem. It conceals identity and thus prevents it. Obviously that means it can be used for nefarious deeds. And, frankly it is contra to Western culture as Jan Creemers, mayor of a town in Belgium points out:
"We have many old people, and they were very afraid when they saw these women wearing the veil," said Mr. Creemers. "It's very important in our town and in our Western culture that people see each other face to face."
I also wanted to point out that leading Muslims in Europe also support the banning of the veil:
Women employed in the public sector in France also are barred from wearing veils at work. The legislation has drawn widespread support, including from many Muslims.

"If you're in Europe, you need to live according to European customs. Either you adapt or, if you want to wear Middle Eastern clothing, you leave," said Khadija Khali, head of a French Muslim women's group. A practicing Muslim who has gone to Mecca five times, Mrs. Khali does not wear a veil.
I agree with Mrs. Khali.

The second indicator of the European "problem" is what has been going on in France, virtually unreported, for a year:
One small police union claims officers are facing a "permanent intifada." Police injuries have risen in the year since the wave of violence.

National police reported 2,458 cases of violence against officers in the first six months of the year, on pace to top the 4,246 cases recorded for all of 2005 and the 3,842 in 2004. Firefighters and rescue workers have also been targeted - and some now receive police escorts in such areas.
Apparently, a low level "intifada", for lack of a better word, has been occurring for the past year after tensions exploded in the riots in 2005. It seems burning cars are an almost nightly experience and attacks on police, fire and rescue workers are fairly routine, with ambushes set up in some cases to specifically target them.

The violence is serious and getting more serious by the day. Of course the repercussions are being felt politically:
Ethnic integration and violence against police are both becoming issues in the campaign for the French presidency. Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, the leading contender on the right, said this month that those who do not love France do not have to stay, echoing a longtime slogan of the extreme-right National Front: "France, love it or leave it."
Also apparent, at least to some, is the seeming religious radicalization of some of the "youths". To others, it appears they may still be in denial:
Michel Thooris, head of the small Action Police union, claims that the new violence is taking on an Islamic fundamentalist tinge.

"Many youths, many arsonists, many vandals behind the violence do it to cries of 'Allah Akbar' (God is Great) when our police cars are stoned," he said in an interview.

Larger, more mainstream police unions sharply disagree that the suburban unrest has any religious basis. However, they do say that some youth gangs no longer seem content to throw stones or torch cars and instead appear determined to hurt police officers - or worse.

"First, it was a rock here or there. Then it was rocks by the dozen. Now, they're leading operations of an almost military sort to trap us," said Loic Lecouplier, a police union official in the Seine-Saint-Denis region north of Paris. "These are acts of war."
As the anniversary of last year's riots approach, police are bracing for even more violence. I would imagine that right now being a cop in France is a pretty dangerous job, even more so than usual.
 
TrackBacks
Return to Main Blog Page
 
 

Previous Comments to this Post 

Comments
From everything I’ve heard, the Arabs in France are more akin to African-Americans in Watts than Palestinians in Gaza, in terms of the reasons for their violence.

I think this article, by way of counter-fact, shows the problems Europe is having:

Radical Islam finds US ’sterile ground’
To understand why, experts point to people like Omar Jaber, an AmeriCorps volunteer; Tarek Radwan, a human rights advocate; and Hala Kotb, a consultant on Middle East affairs. They are the face of young Muslim-Americans today - educated, motivated, and integrated into society - and their voices help explain how the nation’s history of inclusion has helped to defuse sparks of Islamist extremism.

"American society is more into the whole assimilation aspect of it," says New York-born Mr. Jaber. "In America, it’s a lot easier to practice our religion without complications."
"What we have here among Muslim-Americans is a very conservative success ethic," says John Zogby, president of Zogby International in Utica, N.Y., whose polling firm has surveyed the Muslim-American community. "People come to this country and they like it. They don’t view it as the belly of the beast. With very few exceptions, you don’t see the bitter enclaves that you have in Europe."
America, too, has poorer neighborhoods with large Muslim concentrations, but they tend to be interspersed with other ethnic groups and better assimilated into society. Another difference, some suggest, is the general profile of Muslims who have come to the US and raised their families here.

Most Muslim immigrants came to America for educational or business opportunities and from educated, middle-class families in their home countries, according to an analysis by Peter Skerry of Boston College and the Brookings Institution. In Europe, the majority came to work in factory jobs and often from poorer areas at home.

European Muslims today live primarily in isolated, low-income enclaves where opportunities for good jobs and a good education are limited. In the US, 95 percent of Muslim-Americans are high school graduates, according to "Muslims in the Public Square," a Zogby International survey in 2004. Almost 60 percent are college graduates, and Muslims are thriving economically around the country. Sixty-nine percent of adults make more than $35,000 a year, and one-third earn more than $75,000, the survey showed.

In Britain, by contrast, two-thirds of Muslims live in low-income households, according to British census data. Three-quarters of those households are overcrowded. British Muslims’ jobless rate is 15 percent - three times higher than in the general population. For young Muslims between 16 and 24, the jobless rate is higher: 17.5 percent.

"The culture is qualitatively different [in the American Muslim community] from what we’ve seen from public information from Europe, and that actually says very positive things about our society," says Jonathan Winer, a terrorism expert in Washington. "We don’t have large populations of immigrants with a generation sitting around semi-employed and deeply frustrated. That’s a gigantic difference."



 
Written By: Geek, Esq.
URL: http://
From everything I’ve heard, the Arabs in France are more akin to African-Americans in Watts than Palestinians in Gaza, in terms of the reasons for their violence.
If you are looking for comparisons, try African Americans in Watts to Palestinians in Gaza, or better yet, Palestinians in the West Bank. The big difference with Arabs within France is that you’ve a large group from backgrounds different than the indigineous folks that seemingly and openly refuse to assimilate. African-Americans as evidenced by their name alone show fealty to the host culture. But more importantly, minorities in this country have sought to be treated by laws already existing - they have never sought replace existing laws.
 
Written By: bains
URL: http://
...it is my understanding that the veil, per se, is not a Muslim requirement as I see it characterized, but rather an Arabic custom.
Correctemundo. The veil is something which was installed by highly conservative Arab cultures. It is not a Quaranic requirement. Under a fairly traditionalist view of Quaranic requirements of female dress, a woman’s clothing should be a)loose-fitting, not form fitting b)should only expose the face, feet, and hands c)should cover the hair d)should not be gaudy. The head scarf is really the only necessary part of what you’ve mentioned here. Now I would be guilty of telling only half-truths if I didn’t mention that Salafis and some Shiites do insist on women wearing veils and will use arguments found in past jurisprudence, however this is a very narrow view and the issue is certainly not settled (the majority of the non-Arab Muslim world is quite firmly against requiring the veil). The only issue that is going to cause friction with secular Western authorities is that the veil is a legitimate religious symbol. Even though there is no REQUIREMENT to wear it, a female Muslim may do so voluntarily as a sign of modesty. Although it certainly runs counter to Western culture, it is a legitimate expression of religious belief, so this is a really tricky subject.

Not to try to veer off topic, here, but I feel that it is important to mention that a big part of what gets ignored by some in the West is that this is not a double-standard. There is also a strict dress code and rules of modesty for men.
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: http://www.asecondhandconjecture.com
McQ,

I have thought about this a lot, and it seems to me that from a policy standpoint the present course in Europe is a mistake, in many different ways. Outlawing the veil is just wrong in my opinion. However, that doesn’t mean businesses or other institutions shouldn’t set their own policy. The problem there of course becomes other aspects of European law which without explicitly banning the veil leave people at the mercy of laws banning discrimination. As usual multicultural imperatives have left the normal assimilation process snared in the machinery of the state. This leaves Europe in the position of assimilating forcefully and categorically rather than incrementally or leaving its populations unassimilated. Right now they have the worst of both worlds. Europe is both unable to assimilate its immigrants nor treat them fairly under the law.

State institutions are a huge problem since 1) they compose such a huge percentage of the potential employment for immigrants in Europe, 2) the lack of dynamism in the European economies means large employers in general are the main source of employment, 3) the state has such a huge role in the regulation and running of the businesses (especially the large employers) themselves. In the US Arabs and Muslims have numerous opportunities to establish and or work for companies that can have a range of dress codes and other cultural accommodations. That is just not true in Europe.

Yet State institutions should have the right to have dress codes which make their employees better able to relate to their co-workers and citizens. Given the size and reach of the state in France allowing immigrants to incrementally assimilate and work out cultural norms over time that Muslims and Arabs are comfortable with becomes not a cultural process, but a political one. Given that it is a political issue and that European laws legitimate them as political issues it is not surprising that immigrants demand that society accommodate them in whatever fashion they deem appropriate or that the general population responds with demands of its own. That always means conflict, and I expect the conflicts to get worse.

 
Written By: Lance
URL: http://www.asecondhandconjecture.com
I would say outlawing the veil would be wrong as well.

However, requiring photo ID’s without the veil seems to be allowable as well.

Those are the only case of the veil being an issue in the US that jog my memory.

I caught Brigitte Gabriel on C-Spans book tv this weekend. She is a firebrand, but is saying what many of us have been saying. Where are the "peaceful Muslims," and why aren’t they in the streets protesting what radicals are doing in the name of their religion. http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/index.html

Now, she was saying that the rhetoric in some American mosques is just as bad as in many Arab states.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://
One is a general discussion here about the use of the "veil" and how most European states are insisting that it isn’t consistent with European culture

But I thought Europeans were planning on rolling over and allowing Muslims to attain majority demographic status and institute sharia. Mark Steyn promised!
I think outlawing the veil on the streets/ your backyard is a bit much, but public employment, yes. Private institutions can and should make individual decisions.


Ethnic integration and violence against police are both becoming issues in the campaign for the French presidency. Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, the leading contender on the right, said this month that those who do not love France do not have to stay, echoing a longtime slogan of the extreme-right National Front: "France, love it or leave it."

It’s funny, but I found racism and anti-immigrant xenophobia to be higher in France then most other European countries - and this was in the 90’s - among all but committed liberals. Britain’s government has a more severe set of security threats to deal with from radicalized Muslim segments, and yet their government has acted with more flexibility and shown more accomodation (alongside security measures).

France, on the other hand, has a serious problem brewing, mostly due to their sclerotic political system and their xenophobia. That doesn’t legitimize Arab immigrants resorting to violence, but before the first bombing, this is the time when France could be trying to offer their ghettoed immigrants opportunities to assimilate, without incurring cries of appeasement - and they ain’t.




 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
It’s funny, but I found racism and anti-immigrant xenophobia to be higher in France then most other European countries
Me too. Attitudes toward immigrants are much more positive in other Western Europeans nations. France is, for lack of a less ridiculous term, Franco-centric. Anything that challenges or attempts to change the nature of their society or governmental system is viewed with extreme suspicion. Despite their socialist tendencies economically, the French (espcially rural French) are extremely conservative culturally.
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: http://www.asecondhandconjecture.com
...the French (espcially rural French) are extremely conservative culturally.
Granted, its been a while, but when I was living in the BDR, the attitudes towards guest workers was downright hostile. Yet the rural French, more recently, were some of the most unpretentiously welcoming folks I’ve ever met. (Touring the country on a bicycle certainly helps, as does being a visiting skier from Colorado.) Parisians were another matter - both then and now.

 
Written By: bains
URL: http://
Yet the rural French, more recently, were some of the most unpretentiously welcoming folks I’ve ever met. (Touring the country on a bicycle certainly helps
Or it could be that they recognize the difference between a vistor and paying customer to their country, and non-productive leeches. (Not saying that all immigrants to France are non-productive leeches, but much of the current problems are comming from that quarter.)
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://
Or it could be that they recognize the difference between a vistor and paying customer to their country...
And I think that’s a major difference. Granted it’s been some 11 years since I was last in France, but I suspect that the treatment afforded permanent guests (immigrants) is of a slightly lower quality than that afforded tourists or temporary guests. Also, the anti-immigrant movement, by what I’ve seen, is not Parisian, but rather from the countryside and the smaller cities throughout France. Parisians are notoriously fickle, however, and may swing to an anti-immigrant position in the next elections. That may be the edge needed to push Nicolas Sarkozy over the top.
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: http://www.asecondhandconjecture.com
In Australia we are currently having a debate about the issue with what is being said within the Mosque’s. In 2000, a gang of young Muslims males were raping young "Anlgo" females and recieved upto 55 years in gaol. Recently, a mufti has been reported to state that it was like comparing it to leaving uncovered meat out in the open and wondering why the cat ate it. He then states that if the meat was cover(Hijab) the cat would not have eaten it. He has also supported and called for young Ausralian Muslims to support and do more for the holly jihad. Whilst living in Sydney I have found that the general muslim community are law abiding people but with one difference. They do not respect western society and our "way of life". We have had reports of shopping centres not allowed to play christmas carols due to the large muslim population within that area and a school teacher ask to appologise from the muslim community in her area for using the verse "christ our saviour" once to often in a news letter and all christian overtones should be taken out. We have found that during the political correctness of the 90’s we have allowed this problem to get out of hand and now are asking why are we in this mess. My parents are Italian and imigrated to Australia in the 50’s and have shown their love for the country by adopting the Aussie way of life without losing any of their identinty and also showning my brother and sister’s what it means to be Australian Italian, which I think is lacking within the muslim community. The hardest thing for any new arrival to any country is language, for the millions of muslims who decide to move to another part of the world is religion.
 
Written By: Frank From Australia
URL: http://

 
Add Your Comment
  NOTICE: While we don't wish to censor your thoughts, we do blacklist certain terms of profanity or obscenity. This is not to muzzle you, but to ensure that the blog remains work-safe for our readers. If you wish to use profanity, simply insert asterisks (*) where the vowels usually go. Your meaning will still be clear, but our readers will be able to view the blog without worrying that content monitoring will get them in trouble when reading it.
Comments for this entry are closed.
Name:
Email:
URL:
HTML Tools:
Bold Italic Blockquote Hyperlink
Comment:
   
 
Vicious Capitalism

Divider

Buy Dale's Book!
Slackernomics by Dale Franks

Divider

Divider