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Here’s the problem in a nutshell
Posted by: McQ on Monday, October 30, 2006

Although this happened in Australia, it reflects the same problems Europe now has.

First, it is a problem of culture. Speaking of unveiled women, an Imam in Australia said:
"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden, or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem,' al-Hilali said.

In an address that was tape-recorded by The Australian newspaper, Al-Hilali said a woman who stayed home and was veiled would be safe from sexual assault. 'If she was in her room, in her home, in her hajib (veil), no problem would have occurred.'
He's apologized saying he only 'only intended to protect women's honour'. Now, of course, his supporters are rallying around him. And this isn't his first bit of controversy either:
Al-Hilali has stirred controversy before. He has denied the Holocaust, defended suicide bombers, described as 'God's work' the 2001 terrorist attacks in the United States, and blamed Jews for 'all the wars and problems that threaten the peace and stability of all the world.'
The second problem this illustrates is assimiliation, or lack thereof:
Al-Hilali, who doesn't speak English despite having lived in Australia for 24 years ...
Why? Why isn't that a requirement of coming to the country?

Prime Minister John Howard says:
'What has to happen in relation to this man is that the issue has to be resolved by his own community,' Howard said. 'He was not expressing Australian values, I can say without fear of contradiction that what he said is repugnant to Australian values.'
Well when you purposely isolate yourself for 24 years, it is most likely you have no idea what "Australian values" are.

Frankly I much prefer General Sir Charles Napier's solution (shamelessly stolen from Mark Styen's new book "America Alone") to the problem of "suttee", the tradition in India of burning windows on the funeral pyres of their husbands. Said Napier:

"You say it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom; when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your customs. And then we will follow ours."

Maybe it's time for Europe and others to begin building a few metaphorical gallows in order to protect their culture from those who don't mind taking advantage of their system but refuse to accept their values and culture and assimilate.

As James C Bennett said: "Democracy, immigration, multiculturalism. Pick any two".
 
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Comments
Twice in the last month, young girls (not young boys) were molested and killed in American schools. No post from McQ. Israeli President Moshe Katsav was charged with rape. No mention from McQ. Russian president Putin says "we are all jealous of Katsav". No mention from McQ. An obscure Aussie cleric says unveiled women deserve to be raped and you finally stand up to protect women.

If kinda makes a girl wonder who the enemy really is.


 
Written By: cindyb
URL: http://
As usual, you need to keep up, Cindy.

Link
If kinda makes a girl wonder who the enemy really is.
Try a mirror for a clue.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
I don’t know how you can claim this guy as a failure of assimilation. He’s clearly internalized the views of many on the right, say Camille Paglia for example, that the sluts were asking for it. I don’t know if that women at Duke was raped or not, but I do know that we had to endure plenty of moralists on the right telling us how if you go strip at a frat house you can’t complain if you get raped. This al-Hilalai guy fits right in.
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
but I do know that we had to endure plenty of moralists on the right telling us how if you go strip at a frat house you can’t complain if you get raped.
I haven’t been following the duke rape case that closely, but I do know that I never once heard of anyone claiming this. Do you have any links I could check out?
 
Written By: ChrisB
URL: http://
Democracy, immigration, multiculturalism. Pick any two"

the italian, irish, jewish and chinese residents of NYC (for example) just might disagree.


not so surprisingly, the imam’s comment sounds much like some early 20th century judicial decisions about women seeking to practice law, or asians seeking to own land. At some point the unreconstructed uneducable old farts will die off and following generations will decide how to blend old country traditions with their new country’s society.

 
Written By: Francis
URL: http://

It strikes me as amusing that this alledgedly devout Muslim cleric thinks that Muslim men have no more self control than animals. That explains a lot. I wonder how he rationalizes the fact that rape is rare in western societies where women dress so provocatively. Maybe he is correct, that he should not be allowed to mix freely with Australians.


"If kinda makes a girl wonder who the enemy really is."

If you really are wondering, maybe you do need to be kept in purdah. For your own protection. Perhaps you may notice someday that in the west we put the rapists in prison; in the Muslim world, evidently, they let the rapists run loose and keep the women in prison.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
I haven’t been following the duke rape case that closely, but I do know that I never once heard of anyone claiming this. Do you have any links I could check out?
Chris, that was an obviously rhetorical question, since he doesn’t have any.

On the other hand, I have been following the duke case and the prosecutor seems to constructing a laughingstock of his particular judiciary in order to get a conviction.

McQ, it is certainly interesting to hear the cognitive dissonance on the left today, supporting a "she deserves it for showing it" defense from some religious fanatic. If this is the sort of thought process that is going on in their collective heads, no way I can’t understand it. ;)
 
Written By: capt joe
URL: http://
McQ, it is certainly interesting to hear the cognitive dissonance on the left today, supporting a "she deserves it for showing it" defense from some religious fanatic.
It is odd, isn’t it?

Of course some are tying to rationalize Bilmon’s blackface caricature of Blitzer as well.

What a day, eh?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Democracy, immigration, multiculturalism. Pick any two".
In the long run, #1 is incompatible with #3....
 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
I haven’t been following the duke rape case that closely, but I do know that I never once heard of anyone claiming this. Do you have any links I could check out?
I’d be interested as well.

In reality it’s just Retief assuming what isn’t in evidence because it fits his argument for the day.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Twice in the last month, young girls (not young boys) were molested and killed in American schools. No post from McQ. Israeli President Moshe Katsav was charged with rape. No mention from McQ. Russian president Putin says "we are all jealous of Katsav". No mention from McQ. An obscure Aussie cleric says unveiled women deserve to be raped and you finally stand up to protect women
How’s your burqua fit Cindyb?

 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
Twice in the last month, young girls (not young boys) were molested and killed in American schools. No post from McQ.
And, as McQ, pointed out, that was flatly incorrect. So let’s move on.
Israeli President Moshe Katsav was charged with rape. No mention from McQ.
Uh, that’s because, as you point out, he was charged with rape. One notes that the Israeli courts apparently didn’t brush it off as "boys will be boys", or declare, "she was askin’ for it". Since that is so, one wonders what particular criticism McQ was supposed to level in order to be adequately concernd with protecting women.

After all, when you drag the freakin’ president of the country off on a perp walk for rape, that’s usually a sign that the system actually is concerned about protecting women.
If kinda makes a girl wonder who the enemy really is.
Based on the silliness of your comments so far, I’m sure there’s no end of things that you wonder about.
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
All right I’ve gone and done your research for you fellas. Here is Naomi Schaeffer Riley making just that argument in the pages of the Wall Street Journal. And here’s a link to a Media Matters page calling out O’Reilly for similar sentiments. And for the final coup here is Ann Coulter whining the same story.

Next am I going to have to dig up the studies that show that gravity works or am I allowed to assume that?
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
Not a single cite says what you claimed it said.

Not one said she had no "complaint" or intimated she deserved it.

Coulter said such things are less likely in other venues. Wow, talk about a wonderful grasp of the obvious. But nothing about the "victim" having no valid "complaint". Nor any intimation. In fact she flat out says:
Yes, of course no one "deserves" to die for a mistake. Or to be raped or falsely accused of rape for a mistake. I have always been unabashedly anti-murder, anti-rape and anti-false accusation — and I don’t care who knows about it!
O’Reilly said she put herself in jeopardy.

Nah, really? But again, not a word about the "victim" having no "complaint".

Riley said "But just as sociopaths exist on the Lower East Side, they exist on college campuses. One or two might even be playing lacrosse for Duke University."

Yup, she’s really blaming the victim, isn’t she?

Sheesh.
Next am I going to have to dig up the studies that show that gravity works or am I allowed to assume that?
After that citing debacle, no, spell it out. It’ll most likely be as wrong as this, but entertaining at least.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
cindyb,

The real enemy of women’s equality and well being is people like you.

People who at best ignore and at worst actively support people and institutions who have put in place the most vile systems of gender apartheid in the world.

Pond moss has a more refined moral compass then these people do.







 
Written By: TJIT
URL: http://
Well when you purposely isolate yourself for 24 years, it is most likely you have no idea what "Australian values" are.
Therein lies the nut of the thing; cultural isolation, which we permit under the guise of ’multi-culturalism’. Sadly, and this is the same situation as everywhere else in the west. I’ve written about this subject often enough in the past, however perhaps the most pertinent recent writing to the effect was something I said to Joyner not long ago... which I offer for discussion:
Allow me to draw a parallel to demonstrate:

FoxNews, I think it was, recently ran a story out of San Francisco, where the story focused on ‘Liberal flight”… the concentration of liberals in the city is dropping because of the numbers of them that are leaving for the more conservative areas of the state. Why are they leaving? Lower taxes, lower crime rates and generally, a better quality of life.

Now, they tend, according to the story, to bring their liberal voting patterns with them. What the story didn’t say or imply, was a point that stuck out at me like an elephant in a room full of mice: Are not the higher crime, the higher taxes and the other problems a direct result of the chosen political leanings of the area they left?

And so the question, in that case, becomes: If they bring their voting patterns with them, will they not destroy the very thing that caused them to choose this new area to live in? They’ll simply turn their rural area into more of the same area they LEFT.

By the same token, then, comes the issue of allowing our western culture to change and bend at every opposition… do we not lose the very thing that attracted people to us in the first place?

During the immigration push of the early part of the last century, people came here not just for the economic opportunity. They came here because they saw clearly that one major reason for the success of this relatively new nation, was it’s culture. To a large extent, these new immigrants chose to allow themselves to become immersed in AMERICAN culture, and AMERICAN ideals, leaving their old world... and it’s culture, behind. They saw that the reason for the failures in the place they left, were culturally based, and if they were to have a hope of changing that situation for themselves, they must remove themselves from their old culture.

Our western culture must be the one to dominate. And we as a people, must force that issue.
In the situation being discussed, the result is that we have, for example in the case of Mexico, (an offhand example, and nothing more) we have people bringing with them the negatives that they were trying to escape. a cruise through the streets of east L.A. will demonstrate that, quite handily. Similarly, if we don’t start demanding our cultural values be applied to immigrants from the world over, we’re going to have what’s going on in the Middle East right now, happening all over the west as well.

Now, to add a note of urgency, that whole discussion assumes a more benign stance on the part of the immigrant, than currently exists. Make no mistake; we’re dealing with nothing less than an attempt at hostile takeover.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://
Wow! That is some amazing use of the slothful induction there my friend.
Now, readers may well assume that this advice is obvious and that no Duke coed would ever do what the stripper, by her own account, did: Upon finding 40 men at the party instead of the four for whom she agreed to "dance," she stayed and performed anyway. When the partygoers began shouting what she described as racial epithets and violent threats, she left but returned after an apology from a team member. A stripper with street smarts is apparently a Hollywood myth. But smart women at top schools are engaging in behavior that is equally moronic.
Clearly nobody could discern that the theme of this little diatribe has anything to do with the victim.

On Coulter, why are there scare quotes around deserve?
Are you really going to pretend that the idea that women ask to be raped by their own lewd conduct is alein to conservative thought?
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
Are you really going to pretend that the idea that women ask to be raped by their own lewd conduct is alein to conservative thought
Since you can’t dig up an example, I guess so!
 
Written By: Shark
URL: http://
Retief charges in defending gender apartheid.

Could someone (Retief?) please explain to me the compulsion of these "liberals" to defend (directly or by distraction)the most savage oppressors of women’s rights rights? What is up with that?

I support human rights and civil liberties, and I thought that would be a universal liberal position. But time after time "liberals" like Retief defend those who practice gender apartheid. It makes absolutely no sense, unless they are really not concerned about human rights.

I think we are down to two options.

1. They really don’t care about human rights or
2. They have the refined moral compass of pond moss
 
Written By: TJIT
URL: http://
3: Their moral compass measures not foundational truths... IE, rights for example... but rather points at whatever will be more likely to return them to the halls of governmental power.

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://
Could someone (Retief?) please explain to me the compulsion of these "liberals" to defend (directly or by distraction)the most savage oppressors of women’s rights rights? What is up with that?
Because those "savage oppressors" are bonafide authentic cultures, and defending them is a show of enlightened multi-culti tolerance, whereas a useless idiot like cindyb can gleefully point out the moral equivalance of "evil" Israel and USA for a few example abberations.

Shorter explaination: the Republicans are against it, so Retief and Cindyb are for it
 
Written By: Shark
URL: http://
As James C Bennett said: "Democracy, immigration, multiculturalism. Pick any two".

We have all three right here in the USA, so obviously this axiom isn’t universally valid.

You think you’re documenting the problem (and perhaps you are) but you’re also documenting the solution. Cultural integration occurs naturally over time - not that governmental policies don’t affect it - but as values, liberty ideas, and best practices spread over time from one country to the next, so do they spread between countries.

Meanwhile,

Maybe it’s time for Europe and others to begin building a few metaphorical gallows in order to protect their culture from those who don’t mind taking advantage of their system but refuse to accept their values and culture and assimilate.

Where’s your skepticism of government-spread social engineering, now? It’s the same problem that put us in Iraq - overvaluing coercion as a means to successfully spread values. The Republic of Turkey hasn’t had much luck with that. That’s where it leads. The fragmentation that some fear is the birth child of their own aggressive instincts.

This problem will be solved - is being solved - the same way as the *only* sucessful model for doing it historically - the power of example and micro-interaction. Hardly anyone historically arrives in America speaking the language, but their kids learn it. Mexicans includes. This fundamentalist’s kids will be the same.

This cleric in question is no friend of mine. But quite frankly, his attitude was quite common and normal in the US 50 years ago. Hell, it *is* to be found without a whole lot of looking in the US today. Plenty of non-Muslim cultures in Africa and Asia feel basically the same.

It’s not a Muslim thing, it’s a pre-industrialization and urbanization thing. We went through the same process. It was driven mostly by a need for female labor and universal education. If you, as an Australian, want to begin to tackle the problem, befriend a conservative Muslim in your country and show him a different system. Show his wife and daughter as well.
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
This cleric in question is no friend of mine. But......
Always gotta throw the modifier in there, dontcha?
 
Written By: Shark
URL: http://
Some Australian Muslims, at least, are trying to disown this idiot, claiming his is a "courtesy title given to Sheikh Hilali in the 1980s to prevent him being deported". Oops. That group is hoping Hilali will give up the title of mufti, and he has since that article McQ cited was written resigned as imam of his mosque and ended up with hospital suffering chest pains, so they may get their wish.

Meanwhile, you might think this controversy would be enough to convince other imams to avoid the topic of rape, but you’d be wrong. I was inclined to think that the rapist in question received a harsher sentence than other rapists not because of his name or religion, but because he orchestrated several gang rapes, but this genius begs to differ, invoking his freedom to say what must be the dumbest things he can think of.
 
Written By: Bitter
URL: http://qando.net/
" But quite frankly, his attitude was quite common and normal in the US 50 years ago."

LOL. Yeah, I saw a lot of it on "Ozzie and Harriet" and "Father Knows Best". Somehow I seem to have forgotten my father telling me, during that little birds-and-bees chat we all have at a certain age, that it was open season(rutting season) on any insufficiently camouflaged or concealed females. Except immediate family, of course. I guess the test is if you can see enough of them to tell that they aren’t related, they are fair game.


" Hell, it *is* to be found without a whole lot of looking in the US today"

Man, you hang with some very weird people. And I always thought "Deliverance" was fiction.



"...befriend a conservative Muslim in your country and show him a different system. Show his wife and daughter as well"

LOL. I can just picture you discussing dress codes and relations between the sexes with a conservative Muslim’s female relatives something.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
We have all three right here in the USA, so obviously this axiom isn’t universally valid
But the question being ignored, here, is "For how long will this hold true?"
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://
You think you’re documenting the problem (and perhaps you are) but you’re also documenting the solution. Cultural integration occurs naturally over time - not that governmental policies don’t affect it - but as values, liberty ideas, and best practices spread over time from one country to the next, so do they spread between countries.
Cultural integration occurs naturally over time if you don’t have the culture pretending that preserving foreign culture in its midst without assmilation will let that "natural process" take place. IOW, we’re Americans, not Muslim-Americans. So we need to quit accepting foreign cultures that come in here and attempt to wall themselves off.
Where’s your skepticism of government-spread social engineering, now?
What I’m saying is cut the multiculturalism crap. All cultures are not equal, not all cultures are good and if you come here, assimilate or don’t come. That’s the price of immigration here.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Wow! That is some amazing use of the slothful induction there my friend.
Heh ... you’ve got to be kidding.

She’s saying putting herself in that position wasn’t the smartest thing in the world, not that she deserved to be raped.

Sheesh. You’re 0-3 - quit trying so hard, it only makes you look more foolish.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
It’s threads such as this one that remind me of just how far off the rails the left has gone.

Their position seems to be "Let’s defend this Australian misogynist, because he doesn’t like Bush." And then they bend and stretch every point they can find that sounds vaguely like it might be relevant, to try and reach a spurious charge of hypocrisy against the right.

Look, my leftist friends, this is not complicated. The culture represented by this man is odious. It is opposed to everything that allowed your political culture to even be created.

Trying to draw equivalence between him and various politicians that you don’t like is morally obtuse and tactically stupid. It’s morally obtuse because the gap between Bush and Al-Hilali is a thousand times the gap between you and Bush. It’s tactically stupid because anyone with a shred of objectivity can see how hard you’re straining to demonize your political enemies, even if you have to obfuscate or outright make things up to do it. You’re hurting your own credibility with such nonsense.

Just take a deep breath, agree that Al-Hilali is spouting "values" that are diametrically opposed to your own, and that those on the right are completely correct to comdemn them. Hey, how hard can that be?
 
Written By: Billy Hollis
URL: http://
Cindy,

His reputation as the "mufti of Australia" means that calling him "obscure" is just about the LAST thing that he should be called in Australia. It means that his respect goes well beyond that of a mere hole-in-the-wall imam.

But you already knew that, didn’t you? You were undoubtedly just testing to see whether or not we knew that.
 
Written By: MikeT
URL: http://www.codemonkeyramblings.com
that it was open season(rutting season) on any insufficiently camouflaged or concealed females.

The heinous attitude being displayed by the cleric, in question is that it’s the woman’s fault she got raped because of how she acted. That’s a clearer description than your paraphrase. This was a popular response to rape in the US 50 years ago. It’s still a popular response among men today, just not, anymore, amongst people in legal and judicial authority. If you’ve naive enough to believe otherwise, it’s rather too broad a subject for me to bother introducing you.
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
This cleric in question is no friend of mine. But quite frankly, his attitude was quite common and normal in the US 50 years ago. Hell, it *is* to be found without a whole lot of looking in the US today. Plenty of non-Muslim cultures in Africa and Asia feel basically the same.

It’s not a Muslim thing, it’s a pre-industrialization and urbanization thing. We went through the same process. It was driven mostly by a need for female labor and universal education. If you, as an Australian, want to begin to tackle the problem, befriend a conservative Muslim in your country and show him a different system. Show his wife and daughter as well.
glasnost, we were more advanced with respect to women’s rights in the 1600s than Islam is now. You need to actually read history rather than making it up.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
"That’s a clearer description than your paraphrase."

Possibly, but I find my words more amusing, in keeping with the comedy of this thread.


"This was a popular response to rape in the US 50 years ago."

I was there, bud, so don’t give me that cr*p. How old are you?


"It’s still a popular response among men today"

Like I said, you had best get yourself some new friends. There is an old saying that a person is judged by the company they keep, and you obviously keep some nasty company.

 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
The heinous attitude being displayed by the cleric, in question is that it’s the woman’s fault she got raped because of how she acted. That’s a clearer description than your paraphrase. This was a popular response to rape in the US 50 years ago -glasnost
Here are some of the sheiks comments:
"When it comes to adultery, it’s 90 percent the woman’s responsibility. Why? Because a woman owns the weapon of seduction. It’s she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It’s she who shortens, raises and lowers. Then, it’s a look, a smile, a conversation, a greeting, a talk, a date, a meeting, a crime, then Long Bay jail. Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years."
(note the 65 year comment is a reference to an Austrialian Muslim gang-rapist conviction. IIRC, the victims were teenage girls)
"But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, writer al-Rafee says, if I came across a rape crime, I would discipline the man and order that the woman be jailed for life. Why would you do this, Rafee? He said because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn’t have snatched it."
"Satan sees women as half his soldiers. You’re my messenger in necessity, Satan tells women you‘re my weapon to bring down any stubborn man. There are men that I fail with. But you’re the best of my weapons."

"…The woman was behind Satan playing a role when she disobeyed God and went out all dolled up and unveiled and made of herself palatable food that rakes and perverts would race for. She was the reason behind this sin taking place."
http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=132248®ion=7

Yeah, all this sound just like small town USA cerca 1950 . . .

 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
It’s still a popular response among men today, just not, anymore, amongst people in legal and judicial authority. If you’ve naive enough to believe otherwise, it’s rather too broad a subject for me to bother introducing you.
Is one out of thirty still popular? There’s only guy I work with who I think might have that response running throught the back of his mind, but even he isn’t so crass as to say it out loud.

Maybe you’re projecting.

Timactual’s point about the company you must be keeping is also telling.

Yours, TPD, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
The heinous attitude being displayed by the cleric, in question is that it’s the woman’s fault she got raped because of how she acted. That’s a clearer description than your paraphrase. This was a popular response to rape in the US 50 years ago -glasnost
Here are some of the sheiks comments:
"When it comes to adultery, it’s 90 percent the woman’s responsibility. Why? Because a woman owns the weapon of seduction. It’s she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It’s she who shortens, raises and lowers. Then, it’s a look, a smile, a conversation, a greeting, a talk, a date, a meeting, a crime, then Long Bay jail. Then you get a judge, who has no mercy, and he gives you 65 years."
(note the 65 year comment is a reference to an Austrialian Muslim gang-rapist conviction. IIRC, the victims were teenage girls)
"But when it comes to this disaster, who started it? In his literature, writer al-Rafee says, if I came across a rape crime, I would discipline the man and order that the woman be jailed for life. Why would you do this, Rafee? He said because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn’t have snatched it."
"Satan sees women as half his soldiers. You’re my messenger in necessity, Satan tells women you‘re my weapon to bring down any stubborn man. There are men that I fail with. But you’re the best of my weapons."

"…The woman was behind Satan playing a role when she disobeyed God and went out all dolled up and unveiled and made of herself palatable food that rakes and perverts would race for. She was the reason behind this sin taking place."
http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=132248®ion=7

Yeah, all this sound just like small town USA cerca 1950 . . .

 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Billy Hollis, Shark, etc., Where are the liberals you claim are defending this guy.

If you all are determined to ignore the existence of the idea among conservatives and christians (or Americans generally) of Modesty as Rape Prevention, then no number of links will convince you. Just go google modsety and rape and find your own mountain of evidence to ignore. In case there is anyone out there actually interested, here is an experinment demonstrating the existence of such an attitude.
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
Retief,

You, glasnost, and cindyb seem intent on pointing fingers elsewhere. That amounts to defending him, in a typical gutless manner.

Also, it is possible that modesty reduces rape, but that has little to do with this, except in the dumbed-down view you and glasnost share. There is a large gap between suggesting modesty as a good idea and suggesting that women should be jailed for being raped.

 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Oh I see where the confusion comes from. Let me clarify. When I said this guy would fit right in with all you conservatives I didn’t mean it as a good thing. The fact that this guy shares your views of women is an indictment, not a defence. You can see the foolishness of this "immodestly dressed women provoke men’s lust and get raped" idea coming from a Muslim but not coming from a Men’s Rights Advocate or a Christian. That failure still isn’t a defence of him by me. If anyone is defending this view it is big old libertarian Camille Paglia.
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
Retief,

Of course you are defending him. You lack the guts to admit it, but that’s what you are doing.

 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Don, In what way?
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
Oh and Retief, you might want to consider: in Islamic law, a woman’s word is worth 1/2 of a man’s, and non-Muslims words are worth nothing.

If a woman can’t prove rape, it is adultry and death for the woman. Proving rape is kinda difficult if your word counts for 1/2 of the rapists, or nothing at all.
In what way?
By pointing fingers elsewhere (never mind the lack of a problem elsewhere). The statements by this cleric are alien to our culture, going back the last 400 years at least. Do you seriously not grap that?
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Retief, take a look at the phrase "moral equivalence". Then maybe you’ll understand why we consider many of those on the left to be defending Al-Hilali.
 
Written By: Billy Hollis
URL: http://
"The fact that this guy shares your views of women is an indictment, not a defence"

The fact that you can make such a remark without any evidence is also an indictment.


"If you all are determined to ignore the existence of the idea among conservatives and christians (or Americans generally) of Modesty as Rape Prevention"

I am more interested in that old conservativeand christian ideal of self restraint and common decency as rape prevention, which I beleive the good Sheikh seems to believe is not possible for good Muslims.

You also must have a rather crude group of associates. By the way, I do not think anyone can deny that immodest dress may provoke lust. There are too many websites and magazines proving that proposition. ACTING on that lust is another thing entirely, something you and the sheikh seem to think is acceptable for Muslim males. Perhaps you can inform me where conservatives and christians indicate that such actions are permissible and excusable?
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
By the way, I do not think anyone can deny that immodest dress may provoke lust.
I know immodest dress has provoked lust in me. However I never lost control and assaulted anyone due to that lust. Satan failed with me:
"Satan sees women as half his soldiers. You’re my messenger in necessity, Satan tells women you‘re my weapon to bring down any stubborn man. There are men that I fail with. But you’re the best of my weapons."

 
Written By: Don
URL: http://

 
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