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Dennis Prager, [Judeo]-Christianist
Posted by: Jon Henke on Friday, December 01, 2006

The recent Dennis Prager column asserting that Congressman Keith Ellison "should not be allowed to [take his oath on the Koran]...because the act undermines American civilization" and that if "Keith Ellison is allowed to [take his oath on the Koran], he will be doing more damage to the unity of America and to the value system that has formed this country than the terrorists of 9-11."
Pragers' is the kind of position that belongs to actual theocracies.
As Glenn Reynolds, Stephen Bainbridge, Allahpundit, James Joyner and others have pointed out, this is utterly wrong on both Constitutional and precedential grounds. I'm not disposed towards histrionics, but I think it's accurate to say that Pragers' is the kind of position that belongs to actual theocracies. Saudi Arabia and Iran — i.e., Islamist theocracies — for example. Would Prager be willing to take an oath of office on the Koran?
Would Prager be willing to take an oath of office on the Koran?
I'm not a big fan of the implicit equivalence of Andrew Sullivan's "Christianism" neologism. However, Christianist, and its implicit equivalence, absolutely fits this Dennis Prager argument. Prager should be ashamed. (Update: since Prager is Jewish, perhaps it should be Judeo-Christianist)

But there's one more objectionable point that Prager made in his column that I want to challenge:
[Keith Ellison] should not be allowed to [take his oath on the Koran]...because the act undermines American civilization."
How? What, exactly, in the causal connection between a Congressman taking an oath on his own (non-Biblical) holy book and damage to American civilization? I'll tell you: there isn't one. One could more plausibly make a case that we weaken America by insisting that non-Christians take an oath on a religious text in which they don't believe.

In the end, however, there is no causal connection. There is just Dennis Prager, whining.
 
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I’ve been scratching my head on this one. I, for one, have absolutely no problem with Ellison taking his oath on a Koran.

I mean, if the purpose of the ceremony is to demonstrate the sacredness of the oath, why in the world would anyone insist the oath taker swear such an oath on a text they don’t consider sacred.

It makes absolutely no sense. And how it undermines "American civilization" is beyond me. In fact, I believe it demonstrates the strength of American civilization about as well as any act can.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Precisely.

I have no idea what the fanatical Islamists would think of it — they don’t seem to be interested in reconsidering things anyway, so who cares? — but it seems to me that the rank and file Islamic world would be better-disposed towards a demonstration that Muslims are full and equal members of our society at every level. And they would be dismayed to hear that we forced a Muslim to give an oath on the Bible.

Hearts and Minds.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://QandO.net
Can one, then, be a Jewish Christianist?

 
Written By: rightwingprof
URL: http://rightwingnation.com
Sure, although perhaps it should be called Judeo-Christianist. I’ll update it to reflect that consideration.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://QandO.net
Well in the World of Sully, one can be and IS a Christianist IF one opposes Gay Marriage. Usama COULD be a Christianist...so if you’re Jewish you CAN be a Christianist. I think if Madeleine Murry Ohare (sp.) was against it SHE’D be a Christianist... or at least in their thrall.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Does Prager not care that Ellison is SWEARING AN OATH?
Let’s review the oath that Ellison is going to bind between himself, his God and the United States of America.
I, Loyal Citizen of the Republic, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.
I agree, this is the sort of thing I’d expect to hear in an theocratic country.
It’s clearly not the oath, or the book, it’s Ellison, and his religion that Prager thinks are the threat.

He should worry more about my pet bug-a-boo Ted Kennedy and his on going effect on American Civilization.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Prager’s position is lame, but lest the "-ist" suffix lose all meaning, what say we reserve the phrase "Judeo-Christianist" for the guys who fly planes into buildings in the name of Judeo-Christianity?
 
Written By: Xrlq
URL: http://xrlq.com/
"Islamist" is not restricted to terrorists — indeed, it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with terrorism at all — although many people seem unaware of what it actually means. It’s an Islamic political movement devoted to basing government on the Islamic religion.

If we don’t restrict the term Islamist to terrorists, why should we restrict Christianist to terrorists? I’m not really a fan of the word, and some people do draw a false equivalence between terrorists and those who merely have a tendency towards theocratic policies, but one misunderstanding does not justify another.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://QandO.net
Islamist" is not restricted to terrorists — indeed, it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with terrorism at all — although many people seem unaware of what it actually means. It’s an Islamic political movement devoted to basing government on the Islamic religion.

Yeah, but they mostly don’t take out TV ad’s to acheive that end, they usually take out opponents or buildings to achieve those end, so the Islamist is USUALLY associated with a Terrorist, if not one and the same.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
I guessing at this. But I think the flipside of this is that Prager sees this as equivalent to taking the oath on Mien Kampf during WWII.

I guess the question is are we at war with Islam? Or, are we at war with people who happen to be Islamic?

We indisputably at war with a minority. But what about the passive majority? Are they passive because they are conflicted? But if forced to take sides, which side would the majority take?

I guess this is a wake up call to decide how deeply we feel the problem is Islam vs. how deeply the problem is only some thugs in Islam.

All I know is everybody has their thugs and most of the world’s cultures, at least today, put them down. That doesn’t seem to happen under Islam.
 
Written By: jpm100
URL: http://
So help me God.
There is no specific oath or affirmation of office for Congress, however the Article 6 of the Constitution states that officials, including members of Congress, "shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation to support this constitution."

The only specific oath or affirmation of office prescribed by the Constitution is is the Presidential oath or affirmation of office, and this oath DOES NOT include the phrase "so help me God", and there is no mention or requirement of a Bible, Koran, Torah, or fig leaf. In fact, the Constitution SPECIFICALLY states in Article VI, clause 3:

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the members of the several state legislatures, and all executive and judicial officers, both of the United States and of the several states, shall be bound by oath or affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

I have no problem with any official, electing to take an oath rather than affirmation, by placing a hand on the Bible and voluntarily adding the words "so help me God", but once someone is compelled to do so, we have violated the very Constitution that the member is being asked to uphold.

Kind of ironic.

Cap
 
Written By: CaptinSarcastic
URL: http://
Mountain into Molehill which turns to Christian-bashing. Yup, it’s clear who the real theocrats are (of the secular kind...)
 
Written By: X
URL: http://
But I think the flipside of this is that Prager sees this as equivalent to taking the oath on Mien Kampf during WWII.
Only if you consider Mein Kampf to a be a valid religious book.
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
Mountain into Molehill which turns to Christian-bashing. Yup, it’s clear who the real theocrats are (of the secular kind...)
So adhering to the secular requirements of the Constitution regarding the affirmation of office is now Christian bashing?

That’s funny.

So now I guess I am a Christian Christian basher.

Cap
 
Written By: Captin Sarcastic
URL: http://
History Cap

At the start of each new Congress, in January of every odd-numbered year, the entire House of Representatives and one-third of the Senate performs a solemn and festive constitutional rite that is as old as the Republic. While the oath-taking dates back to the First Congress in 1789, the current oath is a product of the 1860s, drafted by Civil War-era members of Congress intent on ensnaring traitors.

From http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Oath_Office.htm

The clue for the Civil War buffs in there was "Loyal Citizen of the Republic".

At any rate, it meets the requirement for an oath. You have to have a ’higher power’ invocation for an oath I believe, the intent being to call on something the swearer considers sacred.
Mountain into Molehill which turns to Christian-bashing. Yup, it’s clear who the real theocrats are (of the secular kind...)
Firstly, Prager isn’t a "Christian" is he.

Secondly, he seems upset that someone is swearing on a book that isn’t in the Judeo-Christian path and indicates this is something like Caesar crossing the Rubicon (which truly IS making a mountain out of the molehill).

Thirdly - I don’t see any Christian bashing, unless you think the mention of the word Christian, in regard to discussing enforcing a particular book for the oath, done by a guy who is a Jew, against a guy who is a muslim, represents Christian Bashing -
to get there you have to pretend it’s not a post about one guy implying only Judeo-Christians need apply to the US Congress and pretend it’s about anti-Christian secularism instead.

 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
At any rate, it meets the requirement for an oath. You have to have a ’higher power’ invocation for an oath I believe, the intent being to call on something the swearer considers sacred.
As I said, it is Constitutionally acceptable, and historically traditional to take the oath rather than the affirmation, where we run into a violation of the COnstitution is when we REQUIRE someone to take an oath rather than an affirmation.

It’s okay though, it seems only whack jobs like Prager want to violate this secular clause of the constitution.

Cap
 
Written By: Captin Sarcastic
URL: http://
I’ve been scratching my head on this one. I, for one, have absolutely no problem with Ellison taking his oath on a Koran.

And if Ellison chose to swear upon Mein Kampf, or the Turner Diaries, or Harold and the Purple Crayon? Perhaps Prager is skeptical because Ellison is swearing upon a book, the dictates of which are INCOMPATIBLE with an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States. Consult your Koran for details.

In fact, I believe it demonstrates the strength of American civilization about as well as any act can.

I can think of several American strengths which have been twisted into American weaknesses at the hands of Koran devotees. (Yes, yes, yes and Christians and Jews too.) Islamic Law, which rests upon the Koran and the companion ahadith, however, are EXPRESSLY INCOMPATIBLE to the Republican government. The act of taking an oath is one thing, but the symbol upon which you rest your hand is entirely another. As an atheist, I would have no problem swearing an oath upon the Bible (because, like it or not, my civilization was borne out of Christianity and it has informed our values and our laws) but the Koran is an entirely different matter. Have you all forgotten who we are at war with?



 
Written By: D.T.Devareaux
URL: http://thestudyofrevenge.blogspot.com
Have you all forgotten who we are at war with?
Are you going to suggest we’re actually at war with all muslims (man, that’ll make the weapons targeting a lot easier won’t it?)

Are you going to suggest there’s nothing in the bible that could be considered incompatible with a Republican form of government?
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Islamic Law, which rests upon the Koran and the companion ahadith, however, are EXPRESSLY INCOMPATIBLE to the Republican government.
As has been correctly about Christian who take the oath, you are resting your hand on the book swearing to uphold the Constitution, you are not resting your hand on the COnstitution swearing to uphold the book.

Westerners have MADE Christianity compatible with Republican Democracy, it is not automatic. You could just as easily have a Christian theocracy as a Democracy.

It’s too funny, we invaded a Muslim nation, with the administration intent on the belief that Iraqi Muslims would emrace Western style democracy, and this guy questions whether an AMERICAN Muslim can embrace our own style of government.

Oy vey!

Cap
 
Written By: CaptinSarcastic
URL: http://
Not being religious person but nevertheless a firm advocate of our Greco-Roman tradition I might prefer to take an oath on the books I hold in esteem and have had arguably the greatest influence on our culture: Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics and Cicero’s De Officiis.

However, as an affirmation is acceptable in place of an oath (or should be) I suggest grandfathering the oath on the Bible as an exception to using religious books while offering an affirmation without the use of any book for those who object to taking oaths. Let’s keep it simple.
 
Written By: Jason Pappas
URL: http://libertyandculture.blogspot.com/
"I believe it demonstrates the strength of American civilization about as well as any act can. "

AMEN and a good anti-terrorism tactic, to boot.

 
Written By: Laime
URL: http://
Are you going to suggest we’re actually at war with all muslims (man, that’ll make the weapons targeting a lot easier won’t it?)

If you knew the least thing about Islamic Law, you’d know that it is incompatible with Republican or Democratic, for that matter, forms of government. What aren’t you clear about? Furthermore, Muslims like Ellison, a cohort of the jihadist enabling CAIR, is exactly the type of Muslim you don’t want swearing on a Koran and serving in Congress. Or perhaps you do.

As to whether or not we at war with "all Muslims," that’s beside the point. Islam doesn’t allow for laws to be fabricated (I say fabricated because there is only one arbiter of the Law under Islam) by men. Period. Exclamation point. Can you point to some successful democratic government founded by Muslims anywhere in the world? How about Afghanistan? Or Iraq? Ha. America wasn’t founded on Islamic principles. Was it? Whereas it is understood that in America (at least by some, but not many on the Left) that one has a right to religious freedom, I don’t understand why so many commentators on this board have difficulty with the irony of a Muslim man, taking an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States, on a book which explicitly condemns religious freedom. Or haven’t enough Islamic apostates been put to the block to satisfy your intellectual curiosity?

Are you going to suggest there’s nothing in the bible that could be considered incompatible with a Republican form of government?

Funny, I don’t recall any complaints from General Washington (or any of the other Deist Founders) when he took his oaths of office on the Bible. Do you? Are you forgetting what is due to Caesar? And if I recall (and forgive me if Im wrong) but the early Christian doctrine was opposed to religious/state colusion. Under Islam, and the Koran, the religion is the State; they’re indivisible.

Any other traditions we should throw out? Any other remains of the traditional ethics and values we should sacrifice on the altar of multi-culti? I’m not trying to be a jerk (though I enjoy it immensely) I just ask that we not be so cavalier about things with great symbolic importance.

In my opinion, our elected officials should swear, if not on the Bible, then the Constitution. Makes sense, no? But the Koran, I will not accept. Not at this time.

 
Written By: D.T.Devareaux
URL: http://
As has been correctly about Christian who take the oath, you are resting your hand on the book swearing to uphold the Constitution, you are not resting your hand on the COnstitution swearing to uphold the book.


You’re absurd. Ellison could chose not to rest his hand on anything; instead he chooses to rest it on a book, the doctrines within which are incompatible with the Constitution of the United States. He chooses to rest his hand on a book which does not make allowances for the freedoms in the Constitution. Please point me to any pluralist, "modern" Muslim nation on the face of the earth that does, and has is Consitution based upon the Sharia law derived from the Koran. I’m sure the name is rolling off your tongue as we speak.

Westerners have MADE Christianity compatible with Republican Democracy, it is not automatic. You could just as easily have a Christian theocracy as a Democracy.

Just like all of those Easterners that have choosen to make Islam compatible with Republican democracy? Examples gross as earth exhort you, right?

It’s too funny, we invaded a Muslim nation, with the administration intent on the belief that Iraqi Muslims would emrace Western style democracy, and this guy questions whether an AMERICAN Muslim can embrace our own style of government.

Now you’re just being insipid. Why do you assume I share Bush’s dreams of turning Muslims into liberal democrats? You have, in an indirect way, made my case. Just as I wouldn’t expect a Muslim "over there" to embrace Western style democracy, nor would I assume that a Muslim in America (and especially one of the CAIR variety) to embrace it here. Why would you assume otherwise when it appears that so many native Westerners haven’t the foggiest idea or even the slightest intention of honoring the Republican style of government themselves?

 
Written By: D.T.Devareaux
URL: http://
If you knew the least thing about Islamic Law, you’d know that it is incompatible with Republican or Democratic, for that matter, forms of government. What aren’t you clear about?
Can you point to some successful democratic government founded by Muslims anywhere in the world?
Hmmm... Turkey comes to mind now, doesn’t it?

You know, D.T.’s comments make my own post on the ongoing battle for the hearts and minds of Westerners that much more relevant.

 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: www.asecondhandconjecture.com
What makes it truly hilarious is that Congressmen don’t take the oath on a Koran, Bible or anything else.

They may have a photo op with their hand on the bible, but not during the actual oath.
 
Written By: davebo
URL: http://
Hmmm... Turkey comes to mind now, doesn’t it?

How’s the Pope by the way?

And what about secular Turkey’s prohibition on non-Islamic proselytizing, its state funding of Islamic mosques and imams, the inability of non-Islamic religions to build new houses of worship, etc., etc.,—all from secular Turkey. (Then there’s that whole business about secular Turkey’s secular genocide.) Don’t quit your poety job, Omar.
 
Written By: D.T.Devareaux
URL: http://
D.T.’s question :
Can you point to some successful democratic government founded by Muslims anywhere in the world?
My answer : Turkey. Examine please the Wikipedia data on Turkey. Hmmm... right at the top: democratic, secular, constitutional republic.

D.T.’s response:

Red-herrings, misdirection, irrelevancies.
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: www.asecondhandconjecture.com
Indonesia is 88% Muslim, a functioning democracy and was recently led by a female President.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://QandO.net
How? What, exactly, in the causal connection between a Congressman taking an oath on his own (non-Biblical) holy book and damage to American civilization?
I suppose that the answer to that question would ultimately depend on how much impact on our civilization the Judeo Christian ethic had and has.

"Islamist" is not restricted to terrorists — indeed, it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with terrorism at all — although many people seem unaware of what it actually means. It’s an Islamic political movement devoted to basing government on the Islamic religion.
(Chuckle) And I suppose the anwser THERE, would depend on how you... or they... define ’Islam’.... as the Religion of peace, or....

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://
instead he chooses to rest it on a book, the doctrines within which are incompatible with the Constitution of the United States.
You are ridiculous. Many of the doctrines of the Bible are incompatible with the Constitution.

Religious tolerance is bedrock of our Constitution. What does the Bible say about religious tolerance of non-Christians....
Kill them.

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. — Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Shun them.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? ... Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord. — 2 Corinthians 6:14-17


Let’s just look at the 10 COmmandments...
1. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." This is contrary to the First Amendment, which states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It utterly defies the American concept of religious liberty.

2. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image..." This is also contrary to the First Amendment, as it violates the right to freedom of religion and the right to freedom of speech. Furthermore, it is hypocritical of people to insist on putting into government buildings a graven image of a document that prohibits the making of graven images.

3. "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain." Again, this contradicts the First Amendment right to freedoms of religion and speech.

4. "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." This commandment has indeed influenced our society, but working on Sundays is hardly illegal.

5. "Honor thy father and thy mother." There is no law requiring children to honor their parents, and in fact, the only laws in this regard are those to protect children from parents who are not worthy of being honored.

6. "Thou shall not kill." This commandment is certainly a good idea, but all civilized societies have had laws against murder since the Code of Hammurabi, which predates the Bible by at least 1,000 years. In other words, it is hardly an original law.

7. "Thou shalt not commit adultery." While committing adultery is usually a bad idea, there are no federal laws against it.

8. "Thou shalt not steal." Like #6, this is a good idea, but not indigenous to Christianity.

9. "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." Also known as "perjury", this commandment, like #6 and #8, is not unique.

10. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house...." It is not only perfectly legal to covet your neighbor’s possessions, our capitalistic economy would be in serious trouble without it.
Western Christians were as intolerant as any genocidal kilers in history at one time, but the magic formula to religious tolerance was trade. It became more profitable to trade with non-Christians than to kill them and take their stuff. And we Christians became more tolerant.

The magic of the market.

But don’t think for second that there are not doctrines in the Bible that are every but as vicious as doctrines in the Quran. The difference is application. We do not apply the contradictory doctrines to our laws, just as an America Muslim would not apply the contradictory doctrines of the Quran.

But the books, other than my personal belief system, are no better than each other.

It comes to this one simple equation, if a person is directed by the Bible or the Quran, the Constitution is not their ally, if a person is a religious adherent but is directed by a promise to protect and defend the Constitution, they can successfuly do so.

Cap


 
Written By: CaptinSarcastic
URL: http://
It comes to this one simple equation, if a person is directed by the Bible or the Quran, the Constitution is not their ally, if a person is a religious adherent but is directed by a promise to protect and defend the Constitution, they can successfuly do so.
I agree to a certain extent, Cap, but I don’t necessarily see the Bible/Torah/Qu’ran and the Constitution as being incompatible. Anyone charging that a person of faith cannot also be loyal to the Constitution makes the same illogical, bigoted argument that was made against John F. Kennedy and his faith (loyalty to Rome alone) and Jews and their faith (loyalty to Israel alone). It’s the old dual loyalty issue all over again.
 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: www.asecondhandconjecture.com
Indonesia is 88% Muslim, a functioning democracy and was recently led by a female President.


Good example, Jon. I suspect Malaysia and Jordan might also fit the bill.

 
Written By: The Poet Omar
URL: www.asecondhandconjecture.com
I agree to a certain extent, Cap, but I don’t necessarily see the Bible/Torah/Qu’ran and the Constitution as being incompatible. Anyone charging that a person of faith cannot also be loyal to the Constitution makes the same illogical, bigoted argument that was made against John F. Kennedy and his faith (loyalty to Rome alone) and Jews and their faith (loyalty to Israel alone). It’s the old dual loyalty issue all over again.
How is that different than what you quoted me as saying?
if a person is a religious adherent but is directed by a promise to protect and defend the Constitution, they can successfuly do so.
I agree with you that being a person of faith, any faith, does not disqualified one from being capable of from protecting and defending the COnstitution, however, if they apply ONLY their religious beliefs to their actions without consideration of the Constitution, and their oath to defend it, then the two become incompatible.

Cap
 
Written By: CaptinSarcastic
URL: http://
You to know that Deuteronomy is old testament, correct? It can hardly be considered "Christian", therefore. I think you had best learn a little bit more about the relationship between the two testaments, and the relevance of Christ to it all. I advise you to do so before you make such judgments again, Because until you do, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

As for the rest, your quote from Paul is interesting, but unavailing. Is it illegal to choose who your own friends are, because of a personal conviction?
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://
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