"It’s time these idiot liberals understand that" Posted by: McQ
on Friday, March 09, 2007
Listen to this impromptu hallway meeting turned confrontation with Democrat Rep David Obey (D-WI), chairman of the House Appropriations Committee (it starts at about the 1:30 mark):
Rep. Obey: "We're trying to use the supplemental to end the war. But you can't end the war if you vote against the supplemental. It's time these idiot liberals understand that."
[...]
"Liberal groups are jumping around without knowing what the hell is in the bill."
[...]
"We don't have the votes to pass [Rep. Lee's Amendment]. We couldn't even get the votes to pass a nonbinding resolution one week ago. How the hell do you think we're going to get the votes to cut off the war?"
[...]
"I'm the sponsor of the bill that's going to be on floor. And that bill ends the war. If that's not good enough for you you're smoking something illegal...
[...]
"You've got your facts screwed up ... we can't get the votes! You see a magic wand in my pocket? How the hell we going to get the votes for it? We ain't got the votes for it. We do have the votes if you guys quit screwing it up."
Nah ... the Democrats aren't split. No frustration evident there. Hello, netroots, are you listening?
Also, from an emailed copy of an article in the National Journal (subscription - no link available):
Congressional Democrats have been struggling with high-profile divisions over how strongly to push back at President Bush over the war, particularly during consideration of his Iraq supplemental spending request. But while the Democrats are stalemated, House Republicans see an improving political climate. They are encouraged by the Pentagon's new military strategy on the ground and by the hands-on message coordination led by Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio.
"There is a feeling among Republicans that is upbeat, cohesive, and no longer on the defensive," said Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., the ranking member on the Homeland Security Committee. "No one saw this coming. But we have made good arguments and have come together.... With our side coming together, Democrats can't come up with their next step."
King was referring to the February 16 House vote on the Democrats' nonbinding resolution opposing Bush's troop surge in Iraq. As the weeklong debate began, Republicans expected to lose at least 40 to 50 votes on their side. But they ended up losing only 17 GOP votes when the House approved the measure 246-182.
"We handled the debate very well," said Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., the ranking member on the Select Committee on Intelligence. "Democrats wanted to talk about Bush's tactical mistakes in Iraq. We saw it as much more than that ... in the war against radical Islam."
The point here is they expected, as noted, to see 40 to 50 Republicans defect. They only got 17. That's a significant difference and it speaks to a changing mood among Republicans.
"The [February floor] debate helped to provide a spotlight for the public to see some facts on Iraq," Saxton said. "It's part of the global war on terror. And support for our troops entails support for our mission." He also credited Boehner with bringing House Republicans together. "He understands that this is an important set of national security issues, but that we lost the last election because of it. So he is working to convince members of what is the right thing to do, without forcing them."
Rep. Sam Johnson, R-Texas, noted a shift in public sentiment since mid-February. "Members went home and talked to their constituents" over the Presidents' Day recess, he said. "They don't want to lose in Iraq." Asked about seemingly daily reports of violence in the region, he replied, "The press reports the bad stuff, not the good stuff." Many Republicans cited Johnson's stirring closing speech during last month's debate — in which he emphasized his seven years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam — as helping the party to stand relatively united against the Democratic resolution.
I've been claiming, in the face of polls that supposedly show overwhelming opposition to the war in Iraq that, in fact, the opposition, for the most part, is mostly concerned with the way it has been managed. Success will change that. And what Johnson may be hearing is the first signs of that change as the 'surge' seems to be calming things down in Iraq.
In the meantime, Democrats remain divided and Obey's rather firm denunciation of "idiot liberals" remains the primary reason that is so. Can't wait to see the "progressive" reaction to this one.
I’ve been claiming, in the face of polls that supposedly show overwhelming opposition to the war in Iraq that, in fact, the opposition, for the most part, is mostly concerned with the way it has been managed. Success will change that. And what Johnson may be hearing is the first signs of that change as the ’surge’ seems to be calming things down in Iraq.
Actually insurgent attacks are increasing, and there are signs the surge is already failing. Meanwhile, the Mahdi army is laying low, knowing that if the US can do a lot of its dirty work against the Sunnis, they’ll be in a better position once the Americans leave.
Politically members of Congress risk little if they don’t do anything about the war and let Bush take the blame. There is more political risk if they try to cut off funds. They’ll get liberal groups mad by not cutting off funds, but those groups are hardly likely to vote Republican. Moderates are more likely to oppose something as drastic as slashing funding. So regardless of what they expect in Iraq, the rational representative will criticize Bush but not do anything risky. (Note: rational does not equal principled). It’s all about getting re-elected. And, of course, they’ll want to avoid votes that might be used against them either way in some future primary or general campaign.
The Baghdad Security Plan is now well into its third week of operation since the official announcement on February 14. Over the course of the last week, Baghdad has seen a significant reduction in violence. Deaths from sectarian related attacks have dropped dramatically since December. "The number of bodies found this month in Baghdad—most shot and showing signs of torture—has dropped by nearly 50 percent to 494 as of Monday (February 27), compared with 954 in January," reports the Associated Press. "The figure stood at 1,222 in December, according to figures compiled by The Associated Press."
Over the past week, there have been two mass casualty car bomb attacks in Baghdad, and no major suicide attacks. A car bomb was detonated in a New Baghdad market (10 killed, 21 wounded). Another was detonated at a Sadr City used car lot (10 killed, 17 wounded). Also, there was an assassination attempt on Adel Abdul Mahdi, one of Iraq’s two vice presidents. A bombing at the Ministry of Public Works killed 12 and wounded 42. Mahdi was lightly wounded. The level of the past week’s attacks are a marked decrease from the flurry of suicide and car bombings that claimed hundreds at the beginning of the security operation.
The decrease in violence is encouraging, however the operation is in its opening phase and al-Qaeda, the Sunni insurgents will work to find the seams in the plan. The low number of suicide and car bomb attacks can be attributed to a combination of increased pressure, enhanced security checkpoints and raids. The insurgency appears to have shifted operations to the provinces, and may be waiting out the U.S. surge or preparing for future operations. The drop in sectarian attacks can be attributed to a greater military presence inside Baghdad as well as the desertion of the leadership of the Mahdi Army.
Erby: What exactly are you smoking these days? ". . . there are signs the surge is already failing." Only one of the 5 brigades enroute to Iraq for the "Surge" has even shown up in country and you are already declaring failure?
Why don’t you try something new for a change - like giving something a chance? If that were not the case, then why don’t professional sports teams give up and declare their efforts are for naught if they find themselves behind at half time? Could there be a comeback? Could they overcome a two/ten/twenty (pick a number) point deficit? No, just give it up and go collect their paychecks.
Why don’t Doctors just give up when a patient walks into the exam room? The patient is going to die anyway - if not tomorrow then maybe the next day. Why even try and do anything for the poor condemned person? Death is inevitable!
You have to let something play out before you declare success or failure. But then again that would ask you to give up your Liberal Narrative and start thinking for yourself. Maybe I am asking too much of you.
Why don’t you try something new for a change - like giving something a chance?
This isn’t about rooting for something or wishful thinking. This is a cold assessment of reality. And, lest you forget, those of us critical of the war have been right for four years. Those saying there was steady progress, or that the insurgency was in its last throes, or that Americans would get massive support from the Iraqi people have been wrong. You gotta deal with reality, Joe. You certainly can bluster and insult in order to make it seem you somehow you are oh so superior to me. But you and I both know its an act.
No Dr. Erb you got your detractor wrong, I just mock you, you need to turn your spleen on SShield, read for comprehension...any way I notice that the Islamic Leader of the State of Iraq is in custody...another failed day in the surge...
Dr. Erb I freely admit we will nver beat you, 20 years from now as Iraq makes it’s transition to democracy a la Korea or Taiwan, THEN, just maybe you’ll admit that the whole charade wasn’t a COMPLETE fiasco.
After all Dr Erb all I did was quote Bill Roggio and some stat’s at you....
You certainly can bluster and insult in order to make it seem you somehow you are oh so superior to me.
I don’t know, not to be mean or anything but maybe he is superior to you. Frankly he does a much better imitation of you than you do sometimes. I mean, he invents his LN talking points on the fly and still sounds believable (well, believable in a bizarro world sense sometimes).
You just keep running the same tired old ’surge failing’, ’mahdi army laying in wait’ commercial in response to any post about Iraq and any possible improved conditions. I mean, yesterday or the day before you were telling us that guys who were actually there, reporting and taking video footage were wrong about what they saw and reported.
Well Looker, I have become a Hyper-Real Dr. Erb, a Dr Erb created in both the semiotics of this media and our minds that takes on a reality apart from and superior to the reality that "objectively" exists outside our conceptual frameworks. Further, as Newton said, "If I have seen further than most, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of Giants." Which, parenthetically I note, I learned was NOT a humble statement by Newton but a cruel dig at a competitor.....But I thank you for your kind words.
Lastly, I will point out that Dr Erb is quite correct, what do those bone-dumb grunts know about Iraq, do THEY have PhD’s?????
You know, Scott, there’s a thing called a hyperlink. When you assert something that goes against what many others are claiming, you can use it bolster your case.
Unless, of course, your assertion has no such support.
You know, Scott, there’s a thing called a hyperlink. When you assert something that goes against what many others are claiming, you can use it bolster your case.
Well, next time Erby, try sending us to a link that actually proves your point. The good General says Insurgent activity was increasing in an area "outside Baghdad." Well, go figure! Coalition forces are kicking their asses in Baghdad, so they go somewhere else. Who would have thunk of that one? And the good General goes on an says they have to be prepared for that sort of thing. And he’s right.
Now I did not say anything about "those of us critical of the war have been right for four years." I made a simple comment regarding your claiming the "surge" is already failing before 4 of the 5 new Brigades even show up for duty. They aren’t even in country and you are already claiming failure. I could care less how "right" you have been. You have yet to back up your statement.
So, tell me again how you intend to support your statement, ". . . there are signs the surge is already failing." Go ahead, try one more time - try another link - anything. Like I said before, maybe that is asking way too much of you.
So, tell me again how you intend to support your statement, ". . . there are signs the surge is already failing."
Read Juan Cole’s article in Salon "Is the Surge Already Failing?" There are some ominous signs about the future. Time will tell, of course, there are co-existing positive and negative signs.
Juan Cole is not one of the "experts" I would use to make a point, but he has an opinion and a right to voice it. But the real statement I wanted to hear from you is "Time will tell, of course, there are co-existing positive and negative signs."
I was never completly sold on this war and have been a critic of the way this war has been conducted since the very beginning. But I am in total agreement with Colin Powell’s attitude of "If You Break It, You Fix It!"
I never stated there was any smooth sailing going on. But I have stated more than once that we are getting only a part of the story from MSM. I believe we will see a whole lot worse before it will get any better in the long run. But all of that is more believable than ". . . there are signs the surge is already failing."
Juan Cole is not one of the "experts" I would use to make a point, but he has an opinion and a right to voice it. But the real statement I wanted to hear from you is "Time will tell, of course, there are co-existing positive and negative signs."
I was never completly sold on this war and have been a critic of the way this war has been conducted since the very beginning. But I am in total agreement with Colin Powell’s attitude of "If You Break It, You Fix It!"
I never stated there was any smooth sailing going on. But I have stated more than once that we are getting only a part of the story from MSM. I believe we will see a whole lot worse before it will get any better in the long run. But all of that is more believable than ". . . there are signs the surge is already failing."
I don’t agree with all of Cole’s opinions, but his reports from inside Iraq, translations of Arab media, etc., usually provide insight on some issues that don’t get media attention.
But OK, you’re right — it’s too early for my statement that "there are signs the surge is already failing," at least not without qualification.
