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32 now confirmed dead at Va Tech (updated)
Posted by: McQ on Monday, April 16, 2007

This is an obvious tragedy, and I'm sure we'll find out, but I have to wonder how anyone managed the level of freedom to commit at least 30+ murders before being stopped.
A gunman opened fire in a dorm and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing 21 people in the deadliest campus shooting in U.S. history. The gunman also was killed.
As noted, the latest figure is 32 dead.

Let's be clear here: I'm not condemning anyone here, I'm simply wondering. Seems many of the killings took place in a dorm. I'm wondering how. Doors not locked? Forced entry into locked rooms? Why no immediate outcry which would have allowed security to respond quickly? How was this person allowed to move to another location and continue killing?

A lot of questions to be answered. In the meantime, my heartfelt condolences to the families and loved ones of those who have been killed. I'll leave this as an open thread and update it when appropriate.

UPDATE: One of the answers from Allahpundit at Hot Air:
Apparently one of the cops said at the presser that many of the dead were students in classrooms. The gunman had an ammo vest on and was unloading at will.
And:
Someone told Fox — purely unconfirmed — that the suspect went into Norris Hall looking for his girlfriend, then lined a bunch of people up and shot them execution-style. The debate at the moment is what kind of weapon he must have had.
An individual account:
Engineering student Josh Wargo, a junior at Virginia Tech, said he was sitting in class when they began to hear "loud banging noises" followed by screaming. He said many students panicked. Some began to jump out of a window two stories above ground level.

"We heard almost 40 or 50 shots," Wargo told ABC News. "They were going on from the time we heard them and jumped out the window until almost two minutes later."

"When I landed, I was in a daze, standing outside of the building," Wargo said. "Then I heard shots going through glass — that's when it hit me that I had to get out of there.

"One of my friends called me to make sure that everyone is OK, I'm told that they're in stable condition, but some of them got shot," Wargo said. "They told me my prof was shot in the face and didn't make it but were not sure.
And the location of the two shooting events:
Virginia Tech Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said that one person was killed in the first shooting, which occurred just after 7 a.m. at West Ambler Johnston Hall, a large dormitory. Flinchum said that at least 20 more people were killed at Norris Hall, an academic building.
No time given for the shootings at Norris Hall.

UPDATE II: Take a look at this graphic:


Note the time differences. How is that left to happen as it did? We're talking about 2.5 hours. Gunfire had been reported at 7:15 and by 9:45 when the second set of shots are heard the campus isn't locked down? Classes are going on like nothing happened? Am I missing something here?

On that same page, there's an audio report from a student, Derek O'dell who was in one of the classrooms and shot by the gunman. O'dell reports the gunman was Asian.

And, of course, this worked out real well, didn't it?
Gun bill got shot down by panel in January last year;campus was kept a gun-free zone.
 
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Comments
Rumor has it that the gunman was carrying at least one 9mm automatic and a ton of magazines.
 
Written By: Jeff the Baptist
URL: http://jeffthebaptist.blogspot.com
Way back when, at the San Ysidro McDonald’s shootings, the killer hung out for something like 45 minutes while SWAT snipers waited for a green light. It was irrelevent since during this time period he didn’t have any targets, and it was something the LEOs learned from. (As an aside, in this case most of the killing was done with a Winchester 12 ga pump shotgun; the Browning High Power and the semi-auto Uzi carbine were used for few of the 21 killings, the Uzi exactly 4. However, afterwards the Uzi got all the attention in the press.)

My understanding is that based upon the slow Columbine response (rooted in an emphysis in doing it right, not doing it fast, which dictated that the initial responders were not to go in) that police have developed fast response times coupled with agressive tactics. Doesn’t seem to be the case here.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
At first I assumed a rifle in which case I wouldn’t think students being armed would have helped, but handguns changes that view. One student or teacher with a handgun could have stopped this.

They shot down laws that would allow students to carry on campus because they wanted to develop a ’safe’ environment.

Normally unintended consequences amount to a "I told you so", but when they turn lethal, it’s time to take action.
 
Written By: Robb Allen
URL: http://blog.robballen.com
It takes heroes to run towards the sound of gunfire.

Some additional preliminary info...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18134671/
NBC’s Pete Williams said two law enforcement officials told him the gunman killed himself. They also said the gunman used a 9-mm handgun and a .22-caliber pistol during the rampage, Williams reported. He said the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms was trying to track the weapons.

Officials also suspect that the gunman had chained the doors of the classroom building to prevent victims from fleeing.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com/
Horrible. Like sheep lined up for slaughter. Expect the Leftist spin machine to turn this into a cause of creating more sheep. Pray.
 
Written By: T
URL: http://
Expect the Leftist spin machine to turn this into a cause of creating more sheep. Pray.
Well, don’t forget, stats say he’s most probably going to be a christian, white, male shooter.

Anticipate heavy emphasis on the choice of victims if he wasn’t an equal
opportunity murdering a*@hole bastard.

To state the obvious, this whole thing just sucks.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
At first I assumed a rifle in which case I wouldn’t think students being armed would have helped, but handguns changes that view. One student or teacher with a handgun could have stopped this.
Just ’cause he has a rifle doesn’t make him immune to handgun bullets.

Out in the open at long range a rifle is a significant advantage*. However in close confines those advantages go down. In fact elite users often prefer handguns for room clearing**. There is a real tactical advantage to defending a room; when the guy comes in the door you have a free shot at him. A handgun would make all the difference here, irrespective of what weapon he had. In fact for this the shooter may have been better armed with a handgun, since if my understanding is correct he was in effect "room clearing" by himself. Room clearing is very dangerous and not something individuals should undertake, but if you are going to do it yourself a handgun is perhaps the best tool.



*subject to skill; I’ve seen videos of Bob Munden hitting a ballon at 300 yards with the first shot from a 1911 .45 pistol and I’ve seen plenty of duffers with rifles having trouble hitting paper at the same distance.

**LAPD SWAT after they switched from .38s to 1911s, for example.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Not sure if I should feel good or not - described as an Asian male.

They’re already focusing on his targeting choices.
Co-ed dorm, and engineering & business classes.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Seems he was after a girlfriend (ex or not, I ain’t sure), and then for some reason he lined up people and shot them execution-style, and then he went hog wild...

I saw a map for the distance between the first and second shootings. It’s not right next door...
 
Written By: Scott
URL: http://
Do we know that both ’events’ were the act of the same guy?
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
"They shot down laws that would allow students to carry on campus because they wanted to develop a ’safe’ environment."
Reynolds and du Toit both linked this.

"Larry Hinker" ("Associate Vice-President for University Relations")... I just saw that damned fool on MSNBC.

My contempt and disgust are just boundless. Endless.

>spit<
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
Expect the Leftist spin machine to turn this into a cause of creating more sheep. Pray.
Indeed.

Expect both Lefties and Righties to fire up the spin machines.

On the way home from the field today, after hearing of the tragedy, I tuned the radio to both Randy Rhodes and then Spencer Hughes to listen to what I expected to be your usual partisan hitching. And my expectations were not unrealized.

Both Rhodes and Hughes were trying to tie this tragedy to the war in Iraq. I’ll leave it to you to imagine how on earth these two were trying to tie politics into this. Hughes even compared it to 9/11 and Rhodes to the “culture of warfare”.

Actually, I was surprised not to hear how it was somehow the fault of Don Imus.

Also, expect your usual talking heads to bring up cultural devils like movies and video games. Whether these talking heads may be the likes of Hillary Clinton or Pat Robertson, I’m sure that they will find someone else to blame. Pathetic.

Attaching one’s political agenda to random tragedies or comedies appears to be becoming a national pastime.
 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
Attaching one’s political agenda to random tragedies or comedies appears to be becoming a national pastime.
Sells papers, sells agendas.

We’ll end up finding out what this guy ate for breakfast, what he did last night, which video games he has under his TV set and on his PC, which CDs or MP3s he had in his players or on his PC.

His family history, where he was born, his life, dissected, analyzed, and if need be, twisted to fit various agendas.

The victims, statistics unless there’s something that makes their deaths somehow more media-magically tragic than the others.

Next year we’ll have the made-for-TV docudrama.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
President Bush said, "School campuses should be sanctuaries of safety and learning".

How can that be when we teach kids to be extremely violent via ALL forms of media — the very thing they spend the majority of their time absorbing.

Anyway, my blog has a timeline and lots of details on what happened today. If you’re trying to catch up on the Virginia Tech Massacre, read over today’s posts.

 
Written By: CharlieJ
URL: http://newzreviews.blogspot.com/
Well, in response to the "Why wasn’t the campus locked down after the 7:15 incident" question, I suspect it’s because it was just a report of gunfire.

Someone calls in and says they think they heard gunshots, the cops send a cruiser or two around. If they don’t find anything ongoing, they assume it was someone hearing a car backfiring or a prank, and nothing happens.

It’s only in hindsight because of actual shootings two and a half hours later that anyone would think the whole campus should be locked down all day because of that 7:15 report.
 
Written By: Sigivald
URL: http://
A bill that would have given college students and employees the right to carry handguns on campus died with nary a shot being fired in the General Assembly.

No shots fired in the Legislature? Perhaps there should have been some. Northing clears the mind faster than bullets flying by. Clear minds would have passed the bill allowing students and employees to possess guns. The direct responsibility rests with the shooter. The indirect responsibility lies with those who wish to disarm the innocent.
 
Written By: James E. Fish
URL: http://faroutfishfiles.blogspot.com/
I tuned the radio to both Randy Rhodes
Eww, yuck. Well, better you than me. ;)
 
Written By: capt joe
URL: http://
Read an analysis of the influences in our "Chain Letter Society" that may be precipitating events like the tragedy at Virginia Tech and how our focus on winning and being number one may be fostering a generation of children with fully inadequate coping skills who have a misguided sense of self-worth...here:

www.thoughttheater.com
 
Written By: thoughttheater
URL: http://www.thoughttheater.com
"the suspect went into Norris Hall looking for his girlfriend, then lined a bunch of people up and shot them execution-style."

And this guy had a vest and reams of ammo to look for his girlfriend?

Pardon my dirge, but that is PC crappola.

I am making a prediction right now:

Notice that the news reports call the suspect "an Asian man." Not an Oriental man, but an "Asian" man.

Pakistanis and other Muslims are considered "Asian."

How much does anyone want to bet this guy’s name is Mohammad or some such other? And that he is a Muslim? And that the police find jihadi materials in his dorm/house/apartment?

And, once his name is released, how many in the media will discuss why a Muslim man killed 32 innocent people? And how often will his religion be repeated?

Want to bet I am right?

Bets, please?
 
Written By: Simon Lazarus
URL: http://
If you’re going to bring up how concealed weapons might have led to not as many people being killed (I think zero is pretty unrealistic, eh?),

then I think it’s equally appropriate to ask, why do have these sorts of terrible massacres happened so much more often here, per 100 million people, than they have in other first-world societies?

"Better gun control would have solved this" is, of course, just an isolated hypothesis open to counterattack. But, "why does this happen so tremendously more often in the USA than any other western democracy?" is a lot harder to blow off.

Libertarians don’t like these kinds of questions at all, but I think the bodies of the victims demand a hard look at the answers. Not a cookie-cutter, documentary talkfest, but a statistical pattern-recognition hunt.




 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
You’re not going to find the answer to a question like that in statistics. No statistic is going to illuminate the value for which a person like today’s shooter was acting when he went off, and make no mistake: it’s about the values.

You’re asking a question of ethics, and that is simply not amenable to a Robert. S. McNamara approach.

Simon: on a strictly sporting Monopoly-money bet, I’d give you even odds.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
Ps. for "glasnost" —

If you can stand facts, however, you would do well to consider the case of Appalachian Law School, at Grundy, Virginia.

Lemme know if you need a refresher.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
Libertarians don’t like these kinds of questions at all, but I think the bodies of the victims demand a hard look at the answers. Not a cookie-cutter, documentary talkfest, but a statistical pattern-recognition hunt.
I don’t mind that question.

I’d just answer with a coldly appropriate platitude...

Freedom isn’t free.
 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
Simon Lazarus:
"Notice that the news reports call the suspect "an Asian man." Not an Oriental man, but an "Asian" man."

News reports would not call him an "Oriental man" regardless. Using ’oriental’ to refer to people is considered inappropriate (not exactly sure why though).

 
Written By: anonymous
URL: http://
If you’re going to bring up how concealed weapons might have led to not as many people being killed (I think zero is pretty unrealistic, eh?),
Reducing it to zero isn’t all that unrealistic, if you don’t count the perpetrator.

One example was a case where a guy tried to rob a gun store, with a uniformed deputy inside (sheriff car parked in front)! The deputy went for his Glock whan he noticed the guy had ear plugs on. The deputy missed and jammed his Glock (one of his hands blocked the motion of the slide). The perp fired a shot at the deputy that also missed.

The gun store owner drew his Colt 10mm and neatly put three rounds in the perp’s chest, and it was over.

Two gun store patrons had their CCWs out, but didn’t use them.

The perp was demanding guns and ammo. He had a history of mental illness. He started a shooting spree, but was the only victim.
then I think it’s equally appropriate to ask, why do have these sorts of terrible massacres happened so much more often here, per 100 million people, than they have in other first-world societies?
The Aussies and Canadians and Germans had all had theirs, as well as the Israelis. Some of those have been particularly bad, worse than our up to today Ithe Israeli example had 40 deaths).
"Better gun control would have solved this" is, of course, just an isolated hypothesis open to counterattack. But, "why does this happen so tremendously more often in the USA than any other western democracy?" is a lot harder to blow off.
Well, as I previously noted, once upon a time England had a low violent crime rate. People like you credited gun control and the action of government; now with increased numbers of non-native English, we understand that the situation is cultural.

Aside from that, you need to come up with something better than a knee-jerk claim that this happens more often in the US. This has happened in England, Canada, Australia, Germany and Israel.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
It doesn’t, Glasnost. You’re just ignorant of the examples of the same behavior in other countries. To pick just a few examples:

-Cologne, Germany, 1964
-Montreal, Canada, 1989, 2002, and AGAIN in 2006
-Dunblane, Scotland, 1996
-Sanaa, Yemen, 1997
-Osaka, Japan, 2001
-Erfurt, Germany, 2002

And again, this is just a sampling, -and- ignoring politically-motivated school massacres like the DFLP killings in Israel and the Breslan massacre. Oh, one other interesting little side-note to all the "Oh my, oh dearie me, America has such a brutish nasty culture" types...we actually have a LOWER violent crime rate than many European countries, and our english-speaking associates like Australia, the UK, and Canada. All the more striking given that we -do- have a higher homicide rate. They manage to beat us by a wide enough margin in assaults, rapes, and armed robberies so that in the UK (to pick one example) you’re actually four to five times more likely to be a victim of a violent crime than in the US.
 
Written By: Lysenko
URL: http://
Glasnost wrote:
If you’re going to bring up how concealed weapons might have led to not as many people being killed (I think zero is pretty unrealistic, eh?),
Depends on how close he was to his threshold of being deterred entirely, doesn’t it?
then I think it’s equally appropriate to ask, why do have these sorts of terrible massacres happened so much more often here, per 100 million people, than they have in other first-world societies?
As to this specific incident, considering this shooter imported himself here on a student visa from China, that kinda knocks your attempt at a point into a cocked hat doesn’t it?
"Better gun control would have solved this" is, of course, just an isolated hypothesis open to counterattack.
It isn’t merely open. That emperor has never had clothes.
But, "why does this happen so tremendously more often in the USA than any other western democracy?" is a lot harder to blow off.
I think Lysenko made good points you should heed.
Libertarians don’t like these kinds of questions at all, but I think the bodies of the victims demand a hard look at the answers.
A free society inevitably makes such things possible, so they will happen occaisionally. We need to demand from government and the others in society the right to be unfettered in our ability to keep and bear the tools effective in ending these situations, and those tools go bang.

That’s the hard answer, you pissant.
Not a cookie-cutter, documentary talkfest, but a statistical pattern-recognition hunt.
Which frankly makes so little sense I don’t know where to begin tearing it apart. Unless you’re claiming you are up for the consequences of using "Minority Reports"?

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
God is an Iron. From your last link:

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I’m sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly’s actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
Little soap to help ya get the blood off your hands, Larry?
 
Written By: The Gonzman
URL: http://
then I think it’s equally appropriate to ask, why do have these sorts of terrible massacres happened so much more often here, per 100 million people, than they have in other first-world societies?
Why should I accept your assertion? Proof it out please!

 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
Why should I accept your assertion? Proof it out please!
The unspoken response from many on the left would be "It’s not necessary to prove an axiom."
 
Written By: Billy Hollis
URL: http://
I don’t care to be one killed in such an incident, but I certainly would not be timid about my own defense. Better to die fighting than waiting to die and from the media reports he was apparently so well organized, I probably would have died. One student stood his ground after being wounded and held a classroom door closed as the killer fired into the door trying to regain access. I hope he receives the recognition he deserves rather than the media’s usual concentration on those needing counseling.

The media is doing its best to make this the worse massacre ever, using no qualifiers. I have great sympathy for the families of those slain and those wounded today, but what was 911 or the 1857 Mountain Meadows Massacre where 120 men, women and children were killed. If 911 was an act of war, as in Pearl Harbor, it would not be a massacre to compare to, but since the media won’t admit that 911 was a war like attack, it should be counted.

Even talking heads that were once law enforcement officers got caught up in his frenzy. Several called the 9mm hand firearms, identified as being carried by the killer, as automatic weapons; but not unless they were somehow illegally modified for full auto.

The media and talking heads complained about there not being a lock down of the 25,000 person campus after the first incident. My question is would a small down go into lock down if there was an initially suspected murder/suicide or worse, a double murder. I wouldn’t think so; and at least I can’t remember any such instance. With a murder that moved through a town killing people, yes, there would be a lock down AFTER it was recognized a serial killer was on the loose. I’ve seen that happen.

These college kids are being talked about as if they are children when it fits an agenda. They are in the same age group as our men and women fighting in Iraq. The college officials wanted the college to be gun free and were public about it, however I don’t think would put a gun free zone sign in their front yard to announce that it was a free fire zone. Gun free campuses is the general situation across the country where I have lived and a there is federal law for schools. And let’s face it, the police, whether campus or otherwise, are a reaction force. I hope we never have a Beslan, Russia type take over/massacre in our country. What that would do to our personal freedoms I can only imagine.

As some have said, this unfortunately is a price of having our freedoms. We are becoming more and more a culture hiding behind walls and that is not good for our country. Instead of hiding, Americans need to make it known we will not accept irresponsible behavior; what we now tolerate. I remember many times Moscow was called one of the safest cities in the world when there was the old USSR; yep, security over freedom.

I am also interested in how the media will treat the information that the killer is here on a student visa from Asia; and not one of those evil, violent prone Americans or maybe our society can corrupt someone in a few years.


The media and talking heads complained about there not being a lock down of the 25,000 person campus after the first incident. My question is would a small down go into lock down if there was an initially suspected murder/suicide or worse, a double murder. I wouldn’t think so; and at least I can’t remember any such instance. With a murder that moved through a town killing people, yes, there would be a lock down AFTER it was recognized a serial killer was on the loose. I’ve seen that happen.

These college kids are being talked about as if they are children when it fits an agenda. They are in the same age group as our men and women fighting in Iraq. The college officials wanted the college to be gun free and were public about it, however I don’t think would put a gun free zone sign in their front yard to announce that it was a free fire zone. Gun free campuses is the general situation across the country where I have lived and a there is federal law for schools. And let’s face it, the police, whether campus or otherwise, are a reaction force. I hope we never have a Beslan, Russia type take over/massacre in our country. What that would do to our personal freedoms I can only imagine.

As some have said, this unfortunately is a price of having our freedoms. We are becoming more and more a culture hiding behind walls and that is not good for our country. Instead of hiding, Americans need to make it known we will not accept irresponsible behavior; what we now tolerate. I remember many times Moscow was called one of the safest cities in the world when there was the old USSR; yep, security over freedom.

I am also interested in how the media will treat the information that the killer is here on a student visa from Asia; and not one of those evil, violent prone Americans or maybe our society can corrupt someone in a few years.
 
Written By: AMR
URL: http://
"the suspect went into Norris Hall looking for his girlfriend, then lined a bunch of people up and shot them execution-style."

And this guy had a vest and reams of ammo to look for his girlfriend?

Pardon my dirge, but that is PC crappola.

I am making a prediction right now:

Notice that the news reports call the suspect "an Asian man." Not an Oriental man, but an "Asian" man.

Pakistanis and other Muslims are considered "Asian."

How much does anyone want to bet this guy’s name is Mohammad or some such other? And that he is a Muslim? And that the police find jihadi materials in his dorm/house/apartment?

And, once his name is released, how many in the media will discuss why a Muslim man killed 32 innocent people? And how often will his religion be repeated?

Want to bet I am right?

Bets, please?
 
Written By: Simon Lazarus
URL: http://
Ouch. D*mn, this hurts!
I’d just answer with a coldly appropriate platitude...

Freedom isn’t free.
I agree.

Oh, the pain of agreeing with PogueMahone...
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
Also, from what Hotair was reporting, the guns had their serial #s ground off, so Gun Control laws would have done exactly squat to prevent this, as they were already illegal. (If true)

Also, the reports are that he was Chinese, from Shanghai on a student visa, which I think would prevent him from legally purchasing a firearm.
 
Written By: Crusader
URL: http://www.coalitionoftheswilling.net/
Murderers and rapists go free because of technicalities in the prosecutions case.

Some say that is the price of justice and a free society.

Society is safe when law abiding people have the means to defend their own and their neighbors lives.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com/
Just revealed.

Shooter was a permanent resident, originally from Korea, named Seung Hui Cho.

 
Written By: cap joe
URL: http://
Also, one of the professors killed was Israeli and a holocaust survivor. He rushed the gunman and shielded his students with his body telling them to escape.
Professor Liviu Librescu, 76, threw himself in front of the shooter, who had attempted to enter his classroom. The Israeli mechanics and engineering lecturer was shot to death, "but all the students lived - because of him," Virginia Tech student Asael Arad - also an Israeli - told Army Radio.
"My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Joe Librescu said in a telephone interview from his home outside of Tel Aviv. "Students started opening windows and jumping out."
I hope someone remembers this very brave man for his sacrifice.
 
Written By: cap joe
URL: http://
The killer was Korean, not a Muslim.

I was wrong about my prediction, and I apologize.

[Don Imus moment; shed tear for camera.]

 
Written By: Simon Lazarus
URL: http://
Joe, that man needs a freaking school named after him, or a civilian medal named after him.

And it was on the day set aside to remember the holocaust, too. Talk about a lesson on the subject.

Hell of a man, and I hope his family finds some comfort how he died.

Just... Just freaking incredible...
 
Written By: Scott
URL: http://
It’s entirely appropriate to ask for the numbers.
Finding them involves some challenges, starting with establishing the classification parameters, i.e., "what are we counting"?

Murder rates are relatively easy to find. Here’s a chart from Wikipedia. We are the worst first-world country on the chart, with 5.9 per 100,000 people in 2005. The second-worst first-world country is Israel, with just under half of us. Western Europe ranges between, roughly, 2.0 and >1.

Of course, if we’re talking about... I guess, "multiple murders", I should step back. I’ve never seen statistics on that. I was, in fact, thinking of homicides rates and assuming about mass murders. And yeah, I don’t know much about other countries.

So, what can we find out, eh?

This DOJ page suggests that "multiple victim" homicides "increased gradually during the last two decades from 3% of all homicides in 1976 to 4.5% in 2004."
Here .

Using the DoJ number and the US population numbers, 4.5% of the 16,000 murders a year in the U.S. are multiple- thus 756 multiple murders a year.

On the other hand, Lysenko, you’ve found ... eight... examples in other countries over the last decade. Good work. You’ve clearly proved your point, assuming that your point was the number of multiple murders in other countries is not zero. I assumed that, though. Thanks anyway.

I can’t find the data for other countries on multiple homicides. Quite possibly it’s not broken out.



 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
Take a look at all violent crime per capita over the last couple of decades, not just murders.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com/
Murder rates are relatively easy to find. Here’s a chart from Wikipedia. We are the worst first-world country on the chart, with 5.9 per 100,000 people in 2005. The second-worst first-world country is Israel, with just under half of us. Western Europe ranges between, roughly, 2.0 and >1.
Yes, but when you break down the data by ethnic group, your argument doesn’t hold up. For example, blacks are something like 13% of the US population, and that last I looked at the data they were responsible for 49% of the homicides.

The US is much more ethnically diverse. When you account for that (I should say some of that, since I haven’t seen any data that fully accounts for it), your point evaporates.

The reality is that the issue is driven by cultural issues that are not easily controlled by government actions, even if we decide we don’t care about quaint ideas like freedom. The US has a significant problem due to the diverse nature of its population.
Using the DoJ number and the US population numbers, 4.5% of the 16,000 murders a year in the U.S. are multiple- thus 756 multiple murders a year.
Even that might be missleading. Most are probably murder suicide, not the type of rampage we are talking about here.

In Japan it is realitvely common for men to murder a girlfriend or spouse and then commit suicide—and both are counted as suicide.

 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Murder rates are relatively easy to find. Here’s a chart from Wikipedia. We are the worst first-world country on the chart, with 5.9 per 100,000 people in 2005. The second-worst first-world country is Israel, with just under half of us. Western Europe ranges between, roughly, 2.0 and >1.
And Switzerland, which has a gun in every home (since all males are members of the militia and required by law to have them) ranks where?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
In Japanese there are at least 15 words for suicide depending on who you took with you.

Like Don said these are all counted as suicides even though, technically they are murder suicides. So be careful of how things are counted in another culture.
jisatsu for suicide
Seppuku and hara-kiri for ritual suicide
inseki jisatsu, suicide due to feeling guilty - this is still common in Japan
junshi, following one’s Lord into death
jumonji giri, a version of seppuku with a second and more painful vertical cut across the belly
shinjū (心中, shinjū?) for double suicide, and also more recently for murder suicides
jōshi (情死, jōshi?) for a double suicide of lovers - this is still common in Japan
oyako shinjū (親子心中, oyako shinjū?) for a double suicide of parent and child
boshi shinjū for a double suicide of mother and child
fushi shinjū for a double suicide of father and child
ikka shinjū (一家心中, ikka shinjū?) for a family suicide
muri shinjū (無理心中, muri shinjū?) for murder suicide
gōi shinjū for voluntary suicide (as opposed to murder suicide)
funshi for suicide to express indignation - for example, that of Yukio Mishima)
 
Written By: cap joe
URL: http://
Well, Glasnost, you managed to completely ignore my point, which was about more than just homicide rates. Also, I like how you arbitrarily restrict your definition of countries in order to put the US as number one. First off, instead of using Wikipedia, why don’t we point EVERYONE to the real sources of reliable numbers. There are two, the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports, and the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics:

http://www.fbi.gov/filelink.html?file=/ucr/cius_04/documents/CIUS2004.pdf

and

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/welcome.html

What does the BJS say about Homicide trends? Down to rates last seen in the 60s.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/hmrt.htm

Violent crime in general? Lowest level EVER recorded since the BJS and UCR started serious data-gathering and statistical analysis.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

But your point was about how violent the US is compared to its "first world" neighbors. Well, let’s see:

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi115.html

Huh...now THAT’S funny, according to their comparison, we have a lower violent crime rate than Canada and Australia and a much lower rate than the UK (that spike in the UK data by the way is a change to a reporting system almost identical to the USDOJ BJS system, by the way, not a crime wave). And when you check the violent crime rates by each country? Rates are per 100,000 population for the last year when complete data is available:

US (from the FBI UCR above): 465.5 in 2004

France (http://www.insee.fr/en/ffc/chifcle_fiche.asp?tab_id=97): 592.2 in 2005

Canada(http://www.hamiltonpolice.on.ca/NR/rdonlyres/4B12A796-B0C9-436C-9F64-840D3EBEE09F/0/CrimeStatisticsinCanada2004.pdf):
946 in 2004

Australia (http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2005/01_recordedCrime.html): 1041.6 in 2003

UK (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/hosb1105.pdf): 3979.6 in 2004-05

It’s worth noting that in ALL these countries, violent crime (murder included) is going UP, not down as it is here in the US. I could keep going, but there’s one other interesting fact that’s specifically relevant to THIS case and the talk about how violent America as a nation is supposed to be...the shooter was South Korean, here on a student visa, not American.
 
Written By: Lysenko
URL: http://
And Switzerland, which has a gun in every home (since all males are members of the militia and required by law to have them) ranks where?

I think it’s fair to say that it’s possible to imagine, or even demonstrate, a given society where high gun possession does not equal a high murder rate.

However, the question is what applies in this particular society, and the relevant costs.

Pogue’s answer is one I respect for its honesty.
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
I think it’s fair to say that it’s possible to imagine, or even demonstrate, a given society where high gun possession does not equal a high murder rate.

However, the question is what applies in this particular society, and the relevant costs.

Pogue’s answer is one I respect for its honesty.
In plain English, ’nost, does that mean you finally acknowledge your assertion was crap?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
I don’t know what assertion you’re thinking of, McQ, but if it’s

a) that the U.S.’s high murder rate is likely related to the availability of firearms and that

b) lots of countries that make it genuinely hard for ordinary crooks to have guns, successfully, have lower murder rates, and that’s probably related as well,

No, I’m still behind those.
You added

c) there’s a country out there, Switzerland, that has both high gun ownership rates and low murder rates.

And I acknolwedged that this is true. c) does not disprove a) or b).

By the way, I’ve lived in Switzerland. The assault rifles stay locked in the attics and basements except to and from military training, and, at least in my family, were only accessible by the conscript himself. I never saw a single gun in the streets that wasn’t being held by a cop or a soldier in uniform. Not that you asked, but my personal feelings on gun control run fairly similarly to that - keep it in your house.
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://

 
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