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Things are the same the world over
Posted by: McQ on Saturday, June 02, 2007

With the heat the immigration debate has generated here over the last few weeks, I found a paragraph in The Independent discussing German migration (in terms of a "brain drain") to be interesting:
Switzerland already has a resident German population of 170,000. Its presence has even provoked a xenophobic backlash in the country's tabloid press. Earlier this year, the Swiss newspaper Blick ran an anti-German campaign which spoke of a "German invasion" and quoted readers who claimed they found the German immigrants to be "arrogant and rude". Many immigrants, however, say the benefits of lower taxes and pay up to three times higher than at home far outweigh the occasional xenophobic outburst.
Substitute Mexican and US in the appropriate places and you have the argument and counter-argument here as well (although I also enjoyed the comment about "lower taxes" from a refugee from a welfare state).

Point? One of the obvious long-term solutions for any immigration problem like that we suffer is to see the standard of living raised in the country from which the landslide of illegal immigrants is coming. And, of course, I've seen nothing in this "comprehensive" solution that even hints at that.
 
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Are those German immigrants illegal?
 
Written By: Mark A. Flacy
URL: http://
Mark, I’m not arguing we should give anything to anyone here, I’m simply pointing to the dynamic which drives immigration (legal or otherwise) and the fact that the reaction to it is pretty universal.

I’m also pointing to the fact that although called comprehensive, this bill mostly treats the symptoms and not the underlying cause driving illegal immigration from Mexico.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
This immigration is off of the "top" of German society (see articles on the "brain drain" from Germany). I have heard of no articles in Mexico about any "brain drain" occurring.

 
Written By: Robert Fulton
URL: http://
Yes, Robert, I noted that in the post. Again, regardless of whether the top or the bottom, the immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are being driven by the same motivation.

Consequently it would seem to any rational person that if you don’t want that amount of immigration (illegal or otherwise) it make sense to attempt to address the underlying reason for their decision to immigrate as a part of any "comprehensive" program, no?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
"...attempt to address the underlying reason for their decision to immigrate as a part of any "comprehensive" program, no?
Nailing employers for hiring illegals is not addressing the underlying reason? I don’t know if that is in the bill or not, but it seems very logical to me. Other than drug entreprenuers, I believe that most of the illegal immigrants are seeking employment. No jobs; no welfare, no immigration.
 
Written By: Robert Fulton
URL: http://
"it make sense to attempt to address the underlying reason for their decision to immigrate as a part of any "comprehensive" program, no?"

I’m not sure we have much influence on the internal affairs of Mexico. Given the reaction of the Mexican government to the few measures we have adopted which impact Mexican citizens in OUR country, I can imagine the reaction to any attempt on our part to make changes to the Mexican economy or governmen policy.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Ever wonder how an organization like the AP can be shot through with liberal bias?
”...Associated Press President and CEO Tom Curley said Thursday:

“... Technology may change how journalists work, but it has never changed what journalists do," he said in a speech to the Seoul Digital Forum 2007.

"Speaking truth to power or acting as the watchdog of the powerful is one of journalism’s enduring values," Curley said.”
Oh yeah, that is the job of the AP; speaking truth to power.

 
Written By: Robert Fulton
URL: http://
I agree that vastly improved standards of living in Mexico and points south would staunch the flood of illegal immigration to this country. But what can or should the US government do with taxpayers’ money expressly to achieve such a feat? Enforcing a ban on the hiring of illegals in this country might at least be an inducement to businesses to locate in the countries of origin of the immigrants. Of course it could be tricky generating demand for lawn grooming and landscaping services in the areas from which people flee...

Perhaps if we allowed folks to come here and work and send big chunks of their checks back home...

But seriously, as much as I’m for freedom and prosperity throughout this hemisphere and around the world, I wouldn’t trust Kennedy and McCain et al. to effect foreign economic and political transformations via ammendments to — or thorough rewriting of — an immigration bill. I say we try not to give them any ideas in that regard.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
I agree that vastly improved standards of living in Mexico and points south would staunch the flood of illegal immigration to this country. But what can or should the US government do with taxpayers’ money expressly to achieve such a feat?
Obviously it is another "long war" type scenario. This isn’t something that will be accomplished overnight, but part of the problem can be addressed diplomatically, politically and economically by the US in stressing and helping enable economic reforms in each country which will encourage and reward entrepreneurship and growth of their own economy.

The point is to reverse the incentive to leave for better pay. Obviously that is what Germany would like to do. OTOH, Mexico is more than happy to see its poor come here. So in combination with plans to hold employers here accountable, it makes sense to find a way to make it more attractive within Mexico for illegals to stay there.

One of the first ways to do that is to stand up to the Mexican government and have them stop encouraging and enabling illegal immigration. In the case of that country, stopping the flow is an important first step in forcing them to quit passing off the problem. But, as mentioned, that’s step one. Step two is then to help figure out a way to get the Mexican economy up and running to encourage would-be immigrants to stay and build it further.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
I’m not sure we have much influence on the internal affairs of Mexico. Given the reaction of the Mexican government to the few measures we have adopted which impact Mexican citizens in OUR country ...
Agreed ... so the simple answer is, that has to stop. And we have to secure the border. But the long-term solution, once Mexico has come out of denial, is that Mexico has to be convinced that economic changes and reform are necessary and in their best interest because the US is no longer going to be their pressure release valve.

I’m not sure how anyone can deny that shouldn’t be part of any "comprehensive" plan. Otherwise, we revisit this again in 20 years just as we have this time after the 1986 bill.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Remember, its ok to be "xenophobic" towards germans because they are white people.
 
Written By: Jimmy the Dhimmi
URL: http://www.warning1938alert.ytmnd.com
So in combination with plans to hold employers here accountable, it makes sense to find a way to make it more attractive within Mexico for illegals to stay there. - McQ
Well, okay, but I don’t see making Mexico more attractive to Mexicans becoming a top budgetary priorty for me, personally, anytime soon. Not for one minute, however, do I doubt that a random selection of fifty-some Senators would be happy to make it a priority on my behalf - if some source of reelection funding said it’d be a good idea.
Step two is then to help figure out a way to get the Mexican economy up and running to encourage would-be immigrants to stay and build it further.
Really, McQ, I agree with you about the wisdom of exporting and encouraging economic development that can help make most places on earth better places for humans to live. And I think the US government has a long track record of trying - if not always succeeding - to do just that. I’d actually be surprised if they haven’t made some efforts to do it in Mexico already. But I’m reluctant to take up the notion that managing our own house must necessarily involve upgrading other people’s houses at our own expense. Step two sounds like a job for Mexicans and for whatever private business interests they would care to welcome — and out of whose way our government should stay.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
But I’m reluctant to take up the notion that managing our own house must necessarily involve upgrading other people’s houses at our own expense.
I’m not at all suggesting we do one or the other. I’m suggesting a ’comprehesive’ plan would address both.

Obviously if we can find a way to take the incentive out of coming here (like holding businesses accountable and securing the border) then the pressure is on Mexico to actually address and fix the problem. Like I said, that’s step one.

Do we want step two to be a popular revolution and the possibility of a Hugo Chavez on our border (while the economic problems remain the same) or do we want to find a way to make step two a win-win for us and Mexico?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Do we want step two to be a popular revolution and the possibility of a Hugo Chavez on our border
As if Hillary doesn’t know how to, um, discourage that sort of direct competition.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
See its natural that we are moving one city another city within our country where we believe we can survive and earn better than present..Same theory could be applied to country to country also,But at the same time we can’t encourage illegal immigrants since it’ll lead to some severe security threats...
 
Written By: sakthi
URL: http://www.breakdown-cover.net
Obviously if we can find a way to take the incentive out of coming here (like holding businesses accountable and securing the border) then the pressure is on Mexico to actually address and fix the problem.
I have an idea to remove the incentive, raise their standard of living, and not pressure Mexico to do anything, but I don’t claim to have originated the idea. We can solve the problem the same way FDR "revitalized" agriculture in the ’30s - pay them to stay in Mexico (and the rest of Central America) and NOT change the sheets in the Holiday Inn Express.

I can imagine that might be so sucessful that soon we’d be paying people to stay at home in South America and not trim our hedges.
 
Written By: Arcs
URL: http://
I don’t know if anyone can help the Mexican and Latin American economies. The problems rest first of all with the way in which Spain settled its territories. Conquistadores and other grandees were given enormous tracts of land that they converted into haciendas, similar to the southern plantations in the US.

Much of that land is still in the hands of those original families. Now you see why they are so tempted by Marxism: in their countries, the rich really have hogged all of the wealth. I’m not sure, but I think that 90% of the land in Colombia is held by 10% of the population. Compare that with the Homestead act in the US and the poor, hard-working immigrants England encouraged, and you have two totally different sets of bedrock on which to build nations.

The cultural attitudes in Latin America are still highly class-based and highly racist, despite the extensive racial mixing that has gone on for 5 centuries. Social mobility is still not much of a concept, and hard work essentially gets you blisters but not much else. In centuries past, having to work for a living was considered low and dishonorable, especially for a soldier. That attitude remains largely in place: the rich have all inherited their wealth, not earned it, so people aspire to the day when they’ll be rich enough to stop working. Usually by marrying into wealth (which happens only on the telenovelas) or winning the lottery.

In the US, the grocery store on the corner was able to expand and open other branches by persuading potential customers that shopping there was better than shopping elsewhere. Americans have always been willing to drive a few extra blocks to save a buck, but in Latin America, hardly anyone has a car, and everyone shops at the store that’s closest to you. Price controls are also in effect in many places, and to be honest, few people have the ambition or the know-how to "grow" a business.

The worst problem, however, is government corruption. Everyone demands "la mordida," from the highest level of government to the lowest. They feel entitled to it, and you would have to persuade about 90% of them to knock it off voluntarily.

It won’t happen. People don’t stop doing things that they benefit from just to abide by an abstract principle (honesty) when everyone else is getting fat off their dishonesty. They don’t have a desire to help the poor the same way we do, because by and large the poor are beneath them. The only people who "care" about the poor are Marxist politicians trying to get elected.
 
Written By: dicentra
URL: http://dicentrasgarden.blogspot.com

 
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