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"We support the Troops", Nazi edition
Posted by: McQ on Tuesday, June 26, 2007

From Blackfive, a poster snapped in a Madison, WI grocery store:


It is getting so you don't even have to look that hard for this stuff any more. As Uncle Jimbo says:
Well now they have gone and stepped right over the line. It's always a sign of the sorriness of your argument when you have to play the Nazi card, but it doesn't mean we have to let it slide.
Exactly. It is important to point out every one of these little "goodies", because some of us have seen this all before and we know where it is headed. The point? This poster isn't about the administration, is it?
 
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But I thought that Hitler had at least good intentions, unlike Bush? That’s what I hear at HuffPo, anyway.
 
Written By: Tyrone
URL: http://
Tyrone, over at The Volokh Conspiracy , I kept on hearing that Stalin had good intentions and better methods, so he was better than Hitler and killed fewer people.

To bad we don’t have a rollseyes emoticon for this guff.

As for the poster, I’ve got little to say.

I’d like the idiot who came up with it to have to spend eternity in a Nazi crematoria catching an earful from some of Hitler victim’s though.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
These sort of children inhabit every college town but lack the cleverness or charm of real children.
 
Written By: Grimshaw
URL: http://
Can we question their patriotism now?
 
Written By: Achillea
URL: http://
No Achillea. Because they love our troops more than we do.

They just also happen to want them to lose,

But hey, details details...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Glad I don’t live in Madison.

Rope. Tree. Leftist. Some assembly required.
 
Written By: SDN
URL: http://
So are you saying everybody does love an occupier? Is the friendly hand of the Hauptmann more obviously false than our own? Surely that depends which side of air-strike one is on.
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
Madison is probably one of the most radical cities in America. But you know, I’m damn proud to live in a country where people are free to do that sort of thing. Rather than get angry that others with different perspectives find provocative ways to state their point of view, I think that should be held high as an example of what makes us great. Also, as provocative as the poster might be, they do have a point — occupiers are rarely loved. Though the Madison crowd probably would readily and proudly admit to not supporting the troops.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Is the friendly hand of the Hauptmann more obviously false than our own?
Good God, he actual wrote that sentence and posted it.
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Rather than get angry that others with different perspectives find provocative ways to state their point of view
Sorry Scott, using a Nazi comparison to slander our troops gets me angry.
 
Written By: Twizz
URL: http://
Is the friendly hand of the Hauptmann more obviously false than our own?
Good God, he actual wrote that sentence and posted it.
Like I said, you don’t have to look very hard to find it anymore.

Shades of 35 years ago.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Actually Germany’s military tradition and civilian honor for the military led many Germans to grudgingly support the war (WWII) and Hitler, even if they disagreed with the decision to go to war. I’ve read very passionate "support our brave troops, the best of our youth, who are sacrificing everything to protect Germany from those who wish to destroy us." I think it’s wrong to make comparison to Nazi Germany off limits. If you bracket the holocaust, which is a whole different thing, and focus on the foreign policies of Nazi Germany or Napoleonic France, and you see nationalism and militarism packaged in ways that made it possible for otherwise honorable civilians and soldiers to support policies which they considered necessary for the nation but in reality were aggressive and imperial.

But I specialize in German politics and have studied a lot of German history, so to me Germany is not that much different than other states in most aspects, and even the holocaust (which killed 11 million) saw a lower death toll than the purges of our Soviet ally, Stalin. Stalin and Hitler’s atrocities are horrificallyl evil. Mao’s policies caused famines which killed even more, though the intent to kill wasn’t there. Still, all that is horrific. But in making comparisons about occupation and how wars are chosen, Nazi Germany like any state in the past is a legitimate case to compare. That said, I wouldn’t go for the provocative emotion of the poster. As is probably clear by now, I tend to think there is too much emotion and provocation in political discourse at this crucial time, and I’d prefer to have dialogue. So I’m not defending the poster, though I wouldn’t take it too seriously.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
I wish I could say the Professor’s words surprise me...

But they don’t.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
So are you saying everybody does love an occupier? Is the friendly hand of the Hauptmann more obviously false than our own? Surely that depends which side of air-strike one is on.
That you would even write this shows your complete moral and intellectual bankruptcy, a trait you share with a large portion of the anti-war left.

I’d call you an idiot, but that would be an insult to idiots.
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
"Is the friendly hand of the Hauptmann more obviously false than our own"
"Also, as provocative as the poster might be, they do have a point — occupiers are rarely loved."

Evidently Abu Ghraib=Auschwitz, and SS=GI.

"I think it’s wrong to make comparison to Nazi Germany off limits."

Go ahead. Tell us how the behavior of German forces compares to the behavior of ours. Tell us how the policies of Nazi Germany compare to ours.

"But I specialize in German politics and have studied a lot of German history,"

Evidently you missed the part about their policy of extermination of non-aryan nationalities, their policy of shooting hostages if a German soldier was killed, their policy of looting other countries for the benefit of the homeland, etc. Or perhaps you think these policies are comparable to ours. You may have studied and read a lot, but you understand very little.

Up until now, even though I obviously detest you, I did not have the visceral disgust that Billy Beck showed. This is not f***** game. The so-called objectivity and clinical detachment you ceaselessly brag about is no more than a lack of understanding and seriousness. You have frequently bemoaned the seeming uncaring attitude of others to the pain and suffering caused by the policies they support, and this trivialization of the intentional results of Nazi policies exposes your hypocrisy and lack of intellectual capacity. You may not be evil, but you are, truly, a useful idiot for those that are. I dare you to post your remarks and the cause of them on your blog, where it can be seen by your students and the faculty and administration.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
From Blackfive, a poster snapped in a Madison, WI grocery store:
I’m know this is a terrible sentiment, but who among us wouldn’t get a chuckle if that grocery store "accidentally" burned to the ground within the next couple of days?
 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
But in making comparisons about occupation and how wars are chosen, Nazi Germany like any state in the past is a legitimate case to compare.
Three months ago a majority of Iraqis said they were better off now than they were under Saddam despite the bloodshed between shia and sunni. How many people in Poland, the Netherlands, France, Belgium etc. thought they were better off under Nazi occupation? Did the Nazi’s spill their blood to set up representative democracies in the countries they occupied? Are we rounding up men, women and children of any particular ethnic group and sending them to gas chambers?

No Scott, the comparison to Nazi Germany is an idiotic one.
 
Written By: Anonymous
URL: http://www.qando.net
Actually the ironic thing is that Nazis of today support the message of that poster
 
Written By: emmess
URL: http://
Up until now, even though I obviously detest you, I did not have the visceral disgust that Billy Beck showed. This is not f***** game. The so-called objectivity and clinical detachment you ceaselessly brag about is no more than a lack of understanding and seriousness.
No, timactual, your emotion blinds you. You aren’t even paying attention to what I write or responding. You are so caught up in the emotion that I don’t think you truly understand the situation or how serious it is. And, because you’re more into playing net debate games (and that’s what you do) and avoiding real discussion, you put a wall of emotion and game playing between yourself and a real dialogue. So look in the mirror. What you say about me really applies to you.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
What you say about me really applies to you.
I’m rubber and you’re glue...
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Scott Erb wrote:
I think it’s wrong to make comparison to Nazi Germany off limits.
That’s because you have few inherent worthwhile ideas about what is right and wrong, Scott. If I were to ask you why it is wrong to murder, I doubt if you could integrate an explanation of why into one which could fit the range of circumstances which can be invisaged.

Timactual wrote about Prof. Erb:
The so-called objectivity and clinical detachment you ceaselessly brag about is no more than a lack of understanding and seriousness.
This is true.

In reply Scott Erb wrote:
No, timactual, your emotion blinds you.
To which I reply.

Dear Spock, I believe your head is a pointy as your ears. Humans are not vulcans and should not try to be. Also, timactual is blind to nothing, where your view that the American occupation of Iraq is in any way comparable to the Nazi occupation of Europe shows a blindness quite profound.

The Nazi occupation had very different goals, and morally evil ones, and quite commonly, illegitimate means. Yes, a moral scale exists which is absolute—a web a parameters which in the realm of human action mesh to produce consistent measures of rectitude—though you do not recognize it.

The characters of the two events in history are so different, there can be few aspects of them where they can be compared, instead, in all but a few cases, they can only be contrasted.

Having watched Toy Story for a bit while getting my three yo’s breakfast, I am reminded of the perfect address to you,
"You are a sad, strange, little man. You have my pity."
Very Sincerely, Tom Perkins,
ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
Tom, you again seem blinded by emotion and missing the point. But perhaps that’s because the point may yield uncomfortable reflections — are we really just acting altruistically or with morality, or are we an outside occupier trying to shape the reason for our own self-interest. Many think it’s the latter, and if so, what we are doing is similar to other bouts of imperialism in history. As for our intent, I’m absolutely convinced that neo-conservatives truly believed that the proper use of our power could expand democracy and western values, bringing hope and prosperity to people downtrodden by dictators. That is completely different than the kind of thought that drove Hitler and the Nazis (or Napoleon, who is very comparable to Hitler). So no, we’re not Nazis. But there is no need to see such comparisons as something to get into rage about. BTW, my four year old loves the movie "Cars," and its fun for grown ups too. The "Land Before Time" series has some excellent films (my favorite: The Stone of Cold Fire).

I try to think like a "Vulcan" in these discussions — it’s one reason I don’t mind getting insulted. As Spock would say, "if you let an insult bother you, you are giving that person power over your emotion. That is an illogical thing to allow an opponent to do."

Live long and prosper.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Scott Erb wrote:
Tom, you again seem blinded by emotion and missing the point. But perhaps that’s because the point may yield uncomfortable reflections — are we really just acting altruistically or with morality, or are we an outside occupier trying to shape the reason for our own self-interest.
And it is a reflection of your moral vacuity that you seem think there is a conflict there.
But there is no need to see such comparisons as something to get into rage about.
Of course there is, when the politically successful yet morally invalid application of such comparisons to our current war threaten to undo what good we have done and may yet do, and make vain our sacrifices to date. Just cause for rage, there.
I try to think like a "Vulcan" in these discussions
Err, yeah.
— it’s one reason I don’t mind getting insulted.
I rather expect you deserve to have a quite a callous built up in that regard.
Live long and prosper.
Mutually.

But I wish extinction for your memes.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
Scott Erb condensed: I’m proud that some Americans are comparing our troops to Nazis. It’s what makes America great. I’m OUTRAGED that any of you dare question this comparison. Your disagreement with whoever put up this poster is awful and deserving of contempt. YOU are what’s wrong with America, not the person who compares our defenders with National Socialists.

Close, no?

My objective response to Erb is: He who smelt it, dealt it.

Deal with it.
 
Written By: Professor Nobody
URL: http://
Professor, I am late to this discussion but I think you have it wrong.

Perception is Reality!

No one looking at that poster reads between the lines and searches the history books regarding the actual occupation by the Germans in WWII. The poster does exactly what it was intended to do - put our government and our military in the same light as the Nazi Occupation of Western Europe 1940-1944. Nothing more and nothing less.

It doesn’t matter what the occupational forces intentions were of the day. It doesn’t matter the support of the German people for the activity. It doesn’t matter what the history books reveal when searched for the reality of the occupation. The intent of the poster is clear to every viewer - America = Nazi Germany.

And if there is any fairness here, the poster does a good job of doing just that - and should be condemned from every corner for that very reason.

We have stood by and heard people shout to the rooftops - Bush Lied, Millions Died - No Blood for Oil - War Profits for Halliburten - Republicans are Fascicts - and the litany goes on and on. And what have we collectively done about it? Not one d*mn thing!

Ignore it? Not on your life.
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
I live by that axiom. Recently I was visiting my parents and heard a nephew spout some of the Liberal Narrative. I challenged him on it. Back it up with some proof! He couldn’t do it. It embarrassed him. It made him think. I am tired of this "non-thinking" world of ours where slogans replace logic. And when a "Bush Lied, Millions Died" slogan gets repeated enough without challenge, it becomes perceived as truth. And that cannot be ignored!
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
...this trivialization of the intentional results of Nazi policies exposes your hypocrisy and lack of intellectual capacity... I dare you to post your remarks and the cause of them on your blog, where it can be seen by your students and the faculty and administration. - timactual to Erb
The awful truth is that even if he does copy it all to his blog - or even present it in class - it will probably be received with uncomprehending nods or just plain indifference. A couple of eyerolls and a bit of resignation, maybe...
Dear Spock, I believe your head is a pointy as your ears. - Tom Perkins to Erb
Dang it, Tom! Presenting this, I was going to say that, given all the ongoing disdain for emotion, I’ve been wondering if his ears aren’t as pointy as his head.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
"Dear Spock, I believe your head is a pointy as your ears."

Yeah, some people just can’t figure out why Star Trek isn’t shown on the History channel.

" the point may yield uncomfortable reflections"

Obviously some people live in a world without mirrors.

"I try to think like a "Vulcan" in these discussions"

Infreakingcredible. My parents were right. Television does rot the mind. Some people never grow up.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed by Scott Erb in no way reflect those of sane fans of Star Trek
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed by Scott Erb in no way reflect those of sane fans of Star Trek
If you’ve ever been to a convention, you’d wonder whether there were any sane Star Trek fans. :)



Erb is technically correct on the First Amendment issue, but he’s not seeing the bigger picture: he’s rationalizing evil behavior under the guise of freedom of speech. Yes, it’s great that we have such a freedom, but there are some ideas which are intolerable, and which should be fought against.
 
Written By: steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
Steverino wrote:
If you’ve ever been to a convention, you’d wonder whether there were any sane Star Trek fans. :)
I’m pretty sure I’d rather buy a lottery ticket than take that bet.

And I don’t buy lottery tickets.

And another weird thing, you evidently can’t swing a dead cat at a Trek convention without hitting a pedophile, or would that be that you can’t swing a dead cat at a NAMBLA meeting without hitting a trekkie?

Either way, weird.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
If you’ve ever been to a convention, you’d wonder whether there were any sane Star Trek fans. :)
I have, and I happen to be perfectly sane, thank you very much...

*looks to his left thumb* Isn’t that right, Mr. Bigglesworth?

*listens*

See, he agrees with me...

NAMBLA... You mean the North American Marlon Brando Look-alike Association?

And we are NOT all pedos, damnit!!!!

gah!
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Scott Jacobs, of course you aren’t all like that, but the odds are substantially worse, it seems.

I’ve got to tell you, I’ve often had the impression that the folks who bother to dress for these things (or SCA tourneys, etc.), seem to quite more commonly than average have only a few torn fingernail’s grip on sanity.

Take it personally if you have to, but that’s my honest observation.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
You guys, it’s just a poster. In Madison, of all places. This is mild compared to some of the stuff I’ve seen in Madison in a visits there. They want to spark outrage. Don’t give the satisfaction. They love it when posts like this cause them to get noticed. Why help them out? The poster is designed to evoke emotion, they want you to react as you are.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Scott Erb write:
they want you to react as you are.
Scott, they don’t care how we react, they want to energize their base.

Off the mark as usual.

Yours, TDP, ml, msl, & pfpp
 
Written By: Tom Perkins
URL: http://
You guys, it’s just a poster. In Madison, of all places. This is mild compared to some of the stuff I’ve seen in Madison in a visits there. They want to spark outrage. Don’t give the satisfaction. They love it when posts like this cause them to get noticed. Why help them out? The poster is designed to evoke emotion, they want you to react as you are.
How is the view in your I’m-above-it-all throne?

You miss the point: some things are best left ignored, but some things are so evil that they must be fought. NAMBLA is one of them (but not germane to this thread), comparing the US to Nazi Germany is another.

It’s been said that the greatest evil comes when good men do nothing. Are you urging us to do nothing in the face of this evil?
 
Written By: steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
Scott, they don’t care how we react, they want to energize their base.
No, they want attention and they want to expand their support.
You miss the point: some things are best left ignored, but some things are so evil that they must be fought. NAMBLA is one of them (but not germane to this thread), comparing the US to Nazi Germany is another.
NAMBLA abuses children, perhaps warping them for life. If you compare a poster (again, mild in comparison of some I’ve seen) like that child abuse, you’re destroying your position by making it seem absurdly silly. To call that poster ’evil’ is silly; and...


It’s been said that the greatest evil comes when good men do nothing. Are you urging us to do nothing in the face of this evil?
I doubt there is much you can do about a poster? You can complain and condemn it, but that expands its reach far beyond a grocery store in Madison. Me, I’d deal with this rationally. "OK, what do we make of a comparison between Nazi Germany and the US — the claim that invading and occupying Iraq is not much different than the Nazis invading and occupying Poland. We can compare on: a) causes for occupation; b) behavior of the occupying power; and c) response to indigenous resistance.

To make a long story short the similarities are abstract — a power wanting to influence a region and spread its ideals attacked another state, destroying a lot of property and killing a lot of people, including innocents while doing so. A resistance arose, and over all the occupation was not welcome. The differences are immense and specific: the ideology the Nazis wanted to spread was opposed to freedom and based on racism/nationalism, the number killed was higher, and there were few efforts to spare innocent lives, resistance was met with ruthless and brutal.

So the similarities are superficial: each time it was a big power acting aggressively and meeting resistance, but the specifics and nature of the behavior of the two powers was fundamentally different when looking at specifics.

See, I did something. I destroyed the argument that the US is like Nazi Germany. That’s more effective than getting angry and calling a grocery store poster "evil."
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
American troops (and, implicitly, those who support them) compared to Nazis.

wow. striking image. compelling. outrageous. infuriating.

and pretty much exactly the same as Rush Limbaugh calling women who advocate for equality "feminazis" and the posters at Redstate calling anti-war activitists "loser-defeatists" (Charles Bird’s appellation), "traitors" and lots more on the same vein. How ’bout Ann Coulter? Or Jonah Goldberg’s (former) title for his long-awaited book?

really sucks to have violent hard-core propaganda thrown in your face, doesn’t it?

now that the war’s unpopular, the shoe’s on the other foot. you dished it, now you get it. Choke on it.

Maybe next time the country faces a difficult decision you’ll try not demonizing your opponents. doubt it, though. propaganda’s way too addictive.
 
Written By: Francis
URL: http://
I’ve got to tell you, I’ve often had the impression that the folks who bother to dress for these things (or SCA tourneys, etc.), seem to quite more commonly than average have only a few torn fingernail’s grip on sanity
Spend time talking to a group of furryies, and you’ll see that Trekies are the sanest of them all...

But yeah, a lot of cosplayers are... umm... "different"...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
PS — this is another example of "political correctness" on the right. You can’t ever compare the US to Nazi Germany. If you do, then by definition you should be condemned. It’s not PC.

Francis makes good points — this really isn’t that much different than a lot of rhetoric on the right.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Frankly I think the "US = Nazi" is a boring cliche. But what is socialism today but just recycled talking points from the KGB? Iraq = Vietnam! GOP = Fascists! Snore. Can’t you write one example that doesn’t have to do with Nazis or Vietnam? BOR-ING.
 
Written By: T
URL: http://
Choke on it.
But don’t anyone claim Francis doesn’t support the troops.
Francis makes good points — this really isn’t that much different than a lot of rhetoric on the right.
The rhetorical examples from the right (not supported by most QandO fans) is targeted at their opponents. Thank you Francis and Erb for once again clarifying how the left views the troops — as opponents to be ridiculed and compared to Nazis.
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Scott Erb is an example of "political correctness" on the Left.

See how I strung that sentence together? Wasn’t it cute and smart? Enough to get one of those professorship gigs? I could write em all day.
 
Written By: T
URL: http://
NAMBLA abuses children, perhaps warping them for life. If you compare a poster (again, mild in comparison of some I’ve seen) like that child abuse, you’re destroying your position by making it seem absurdly silly. To call that poster ’evil’ is silly; and...
No, Erb, I think I explained my position quite well. It is you who misrepresent it. NAMBLA does have the right to espouse their views, just as the organizers of the rally in Madison do. But their views are evil, and to be fought against. I am NOT comparing the poster with child molestation...just saying that both are instances of evil. Apparently, you don’t think comparing the US to Nazi Germany is evil, or not evil enough to act on. That’s not a position I could take.
I doubt there is much you can do about a poster? You can complain and condemn it, but that expands its reach far beyond a grocery store in Madison
You really are more shallow than you appear, did you know that? It’s a poster advertising a rally. Now, if I were anywhere near Madison, I’d organize my own counter-rally to combat their evil. As it is, I will combat anyone with the same message here in my own town.
That’s more effective than getting angry and calling a grocery store poster "evil."
The poster is an expression of an evil idea. I hope you understand the distinction between calling a poster evil and calling the idea behind it evil.

I wouldn’t compare my political opponents to Nazi Germany under any circumstances. It has nothing to do with political correctness, and everything to do with proportion. Nobody that I have seen is as evil as Nazi Germany, and to call someone a Nazi is just plain wrong.

By the way, Francis, tu quoque isn’t a valid argument, and it doesn’t excuse the act.
 
Written By: steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
For Francis: You want me to choke on it? No - I will not fall to my knees to suck and choke on what you propose. You see - you beat me to it. Where were you when all of this talk of war began? On your knees! Where were you when your representatives, Republican and Democrat, voted for war. On your knees! What did you do to stop it - nothing! And if you did, prove it!

Maybe next time the country faces a difficult decision you’ll try not spending your days on your knees. Doubt it, though. Whining is way too addictive and you like it down there.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
now that the war’s unpopular
Interesting how the left looks at popularity. "Now that the war is unpopular" tells the tale doesn’t it? No mention of whether it was right or wrong. No mention of what good or evil could come from it? Just a popularity poll - is that all the war is to the left?

Johnny is the cutest. Popularity polls reveal it. Susie is the smartest. Popularity polls readily show that. Just ask any of the kids at school. And, oh by the way, the war is really icky!

(Oh, by the way, Sears has a special on kneepads, Francis. Yours are worn out - you need a new pair!)
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
Steverino: Hmmmm...as evil as Nazi Germany? Soviet Communism? Pol Pot’s Cambodia? The Rwandan genocide? The holocaust of Native American Indian tribes as the US moved westward, destroying whole peoples and taking their lands? European colonialism, destroying African societies and cultures, and creating conditions that turned once prosperous empires and statelets into corrupt states suffering disease, malnutrition and famine? Sorry, I can’t by the "nobody was as evil as the Nazis" bit. They did to other Europeans things that Europeans had been doing to other peoples — things like Spanish conquistadors slaughtering natives in Latin America, the selling of blacks into slavery, the ’convert or die’ approach of the crusades. Most Germans did not participate in the holocaust or atrocities. There were a lot of brave German soldiers who fought believing they were doing the right thing.

The "Nazis were uniquely evil" is a cartoonish version of history. Reality is far more complex.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
and pretty much exactly the same as Rush Limbaugh calling women who advocate for equality "feminazis" and the posters at Redstate calling anti-war activitists "loser-defeatists" (Charles Bird’s appellation), "traitors" and lots more on the same vein. How ’bout Ann Coulter? Or Jonah Goldberg’s (former) title for his long-awaited book?
Ever seen those used here, Francis?

It is almost predictable that someone will beam in and make this silly argument. I don’t use "feminazis" because I think it is denigrating as well as a term that cheapens and does an injustice to the horror and atrocity that was Nazism (nor do I call anyone "traitor" or "loser-defeatists - so your usual strawman is noted and rejected).

And I feel the same way about this poster (which btw is a "twofer" - a prefect example of moral relativism and historic ignorance).

Obviously, Francis, you don’t.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
How about Jonah Goldberg’s new book, where he talks about the "socialism" of National Socialism. The sin! The horrors! Everyone knows that Hitler’s vision was Wal-Mart’s low low prices and cheap trans-fat burritos at Taco Bell (i.e. fascist American business).
 
Written By: T
URL: http://
"There were a lot of brave German soldiers who fought believing they were doing the right thing."

Hitler built superhighways. 2 cheers!!!
 
Written By: T
URL: http://
SSHiell: true, popularity doesn’t matter. The fact that despite being unpopular at the time, the anti-war side was correct in a lot of their pre-war arguments about the consequences of going to war, shows popularity does not equal being correct. That’s in fact why the war is unpopular, people are seeing that the promises and predictions made by the hawks in 2002-03 were dead wrong.

Alas, you are right on the point too that popularity doesn’t point to what we should do NOW. That’s a complex issue too, but with Lugar now coming out against the policy, I think the unpopularity will force withdrawal. Can it be done in a way that avoids making things worse? How? That’s the interesting question now.

MCQ: You may not use terms like that, but many commentators do. And, of course you are selective in what you express your outrage about (which is expected in this kind of forum, that’s not a criticism.) Thus it’s fine for Francis to point out other examples. Finally, you are wrong about moral relativism. I suspect there is an absolutist morality at play in making the poster. Historical ignorance? Well, I don’t even think they were trying to be historically accurate! It was done for effect, to arouse emotions and gain attention. That’s why Rush the talk radio jock (as opposed to the band) uses the terms he uses them.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
steverino: propaganda is not a forum for using formal logic. If we restricted political speech to require the use of logic, George Bush’s head would have exploded a long time ago.

And on this thread we have two calls for violence, one from SDN and one from shark, that have not been condemned, and once again i’m accused of a lack of patriotism. how’s that for formal logic?

McQ: how about the support our troops nonsense? That’s not propaganda? That’s not designed to quash debate? feh.

this war was sold on vile violent propaganda — we don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud — and maintained on vile violent propaganda, like "support the troops".

And guess what? Your political opponents have discovered that it works. so now they’re using it.

I didn’t like the propaganda from the administration and its supporters, like this blog, and I don’t like the poster. but this thread isn’t about my tastes, it’s about the appropriate use of violent propaganda. I’ll publicly condemn the poster, but only when Coulter is no longer given air time, when Limbaugh apologizes for using "feminazi" and when this blog stops using the "support our troops" justification for continuing the occupation.

since i’m feeling full of cliches today, here’s a few i think apply:

live by the sword, die by the sword.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

He that troubleth his own house shall inherit the wind:
and the fool shall be servant to the wise of heart.


The administration and its supporters have inherited the wind. And a mighty wind it appears to be.
 
Written By: Francis
URL: http://
Hawks: Leaving Iraq is a mistake, it will collapse and help fuel terrorism.

Doves: Withdraw! War’s unpopular! US = Nazis!

Hawks: Are you sure?

Doves: Yes, you nazi nazi nazi! Leave now.

Hawks: OK, let’s withdraw.

Hawks: Oh no, things have gone to hell. Retreating from Iraq destabilized the region. Israel nuked. Terrorism in the US! Oh no!

Doves: You nazi nazi! Look what Bush did! He retreated from Iraq and ruined everything! Fascists! You increased terrorism!

Hawks: OK, let’s go back into Iraq.

Doves: NO to Invasion! You nazis! We are gonna make this war unpopular and you will pay! Cindy Sheehan is a peace mom!

etc. etc.

 
Written By: It goes on
URL: http://
Francis:

He who smelt it...dealt it.
 
Written By: It goes on
URL: http://
And on this thread we have two calls for violence, one from SDN and one from shark, that have not been condemned, and once again i’m accused of a lack of patriotism. how’s that for formal logic?
I stopped denouncing it when you folks NEVER denounced what was said about Snow, Cheney, Rice or Coulter.

So go f*ck yourself, idiot.

You have also apparently never read Limbaugh explanation of the term "feminazi". He certainly doesn’t apply it to even the majority of women who seek equality for women. Perhaps if you looked into yourself, and didn’t simply trust a couple of talking points given to you by someone else, you would know better.
this war was sold on vile violent propaganda — we don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud — and maintained on vile violent propaganda, like "support the troops".
And on piles of other evidence, including but not limited to vast abuses of human rights and near genocide by Sadam and his sons. Try reading the papers authorizing the war.
so now they’re using it.
Now??? You say that like they never did this crap before...

And since you like cliches, here’s one for you: He who burries his head in the sand will end up getting kicked in the ass...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Francis:

"But mommy, he hit me first!!!"
 
Written By: It goes on
URL: http://
McQ: how about the support our troops nonsense? That’s not propaganda? That’s not designed to quash debate? feh.
Have you ever been prevented from putting out your opinion or propaganda here?

The rest of your cliche ridden twaddle isn’t worth the time to address, but it is noted that you again avoided the point about the poster and its inference about our troops. So again, I have to conclude you agree or are completely ignorant of what the Nazis were or both.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
PS — this is another example of "political correctness" on the right. You can’t ever compare the US to Nazi Germany. If you do, then by definition you should be condemned. It’s not PC.
Scott Erb, you don’t understand the meaning of political correctness. PC is the means by which Democrats and the aggrieved, special interest groups that form their political base prevent people from telling the truth. On the other hand, comparing the United States to Nazi Germany is patently false because the United states is the antithesis of Nazi Germany. Therefore, we are challenging the comparison to Nazi Germany because it is false. Liberals like yourself criticize non-PC speech because it is the truth and the truth is threatening to your liberal fantasies.

As an experiment in your illogic, how about if someone places posters all over Orono, Maine with your picture on them stating that you are a pedophile. The Nazi poster is intended to discredit the United States and our efforts in Iraq by making a patently false assertion (i.e. the U.S. = Nazi Germany). The pedophile poster would be intended to discredit you as a useful idiot for murderous dictators like Saddam and Amenijad. And to use your rationalization, the pedophile poster would be intended to be provocative. It doesn’t matter whether you really are a pedophile because the accusation is correct metaphorically; useful idiots like you are dangerous to this country’s well being just as pedophiles are dangerous to the well being of children. Or, in your words:
To make a long story short the similarities are abstract
See Erb, you would be furious if someone slandered you. What would you think when someone countered your anger at the false accusation with the retort, "Why can’t you compare liberals like Erb to pedophiles? It is nothing more than political correctness." Hopefully, you would muster every ounce of your small intellect and respond that "I’m not criticizing your false accusation because of political correctness, I am criticizing it because it is false." I can understand why you don’t understand the distinction. There is a long and full liberal tradition right out of Joseph Stalin’s playbook to make false accusations against ideological opponents. False accusations have been the Democrat approach to challenging the war. "Bush lied", "16 words", "Profit for Halliburton". It has never mattered to you that these are all false allegations.
 
Written By: Anonymous
URL: http://www.qando.net
Francis: That Sears special is a "Two for One" goodie. Why you could even alternate which pair of kneepads you wear from one day to the next. What a good deal! And stay on your knees - you look good there!

And speaking of cliches, Francis, here’s one for especially for you: Eat sh*t and bark like a dog! Oops! That wasn’t a cliche. Oh well . . .
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
mcq: "support our troops" is propaganda no matter what impact it has on me personally. it joins a long line of slogans designed to prevent people from advocating thoughtfully for ending ongoing military operations, like "America — love it or leave it." (remember the movie Born on the 4th of July?)

what is the long-term strategic interest of the US in the Middle East? Should we seek to recognize an independent Kurdistan and position a substantial force there? How about using Kuwait or the UAE as a base? How hard can we press the Saudi royal family to adopt significant progressive reforms consistent with broad American values? Dare we risk toppling the House of Saud or is the flow of oil more important? If stability in Saudi Arabia outweighs our commitment to liberty/democracy, what effect does the occupation of Iraq have on that stability? Are there better/smarter/cheaper ways of ensuring the destruction of Al Qaeda than the occupation?

sorry, can’t get a discussion of those questions here. gotta support the troops.

you’d have made a great WWI General. sue for peace and end the meatgrinder? how dare you not support the troops!
 
Written By: Francis
URL: http://
Sorry, I can’t by the "nobody was as evil as the Nazis" bit.
You misrepresent my words again. I clearly meant that none of my political opponents are as evil as Nazi Germany.

Every day, in every way, you become an even bigger putz than you were before.


(I note you have no response to the rest of my post, other than to nitpick one statement.)
 
Written By: steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
this war was ... maintained on vile violent propaganda, like "support the troops" - Francis
The reminder, or admonition, or encouragement to "support the troops" is "vile violent propaganda"?

That’s a new one on me.

I take it that, on your anti-war poster, the Nazi who signifies our American soldier isn’t smiling.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
Sorry, professor, I have to disagree with:
the anti-war side was correct in a lot of their pre-war arguments about the consequences of going to war
If you were to revisit the anti-war web sites, newspaper and magazine editorials, and the "usual suspects’ out there on the left and read all of the pre-war arguments, you will find very little that they had right. From "Tens of thousands of casualties in house to house fighting to take Baghdad" to "There will never be a ______" (Fill in the blank with constitution, legislature, or government, etc.)

They did not predict the insurgency. They did not predict the prevalence of IEDs or of Suicide Bombers. They did not predict the capture of Sadaam or the death of Zahrqawi or the capture of most of the governmental heads of Sadaam.

They predicted many times the casualties we have suffered in the entire war. They predicted a virtual theft of all Iraqi oil by the administration. None of those things came to pass.

They predicted failure. That is virtually all they have predicted that may yet come to pass and, despite their most strenuous efforts to make it so, even the jury is out on that one.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
See Erb, you would be furious if someone slandered you.
Who was slandered? Heck, I’m pretty libertarian but people here have called me Stalinist, a traitor, said I want the US to lose, have insulted me and attacked me personally many times. It doesn’t get me furious — I don’t let people have control over my emotions like that. But this poster didn’t explicitly say the US was like Nazi Germany except in the claim that we are an occupier. Hardly slander. The rest of your post makes no sense, you clearly didn’t read the post I made. I explicitly said that it’s being PC to simply say "comparisons off limits," but it’s useful to make an argument why the comparison is wrong (which I did). You can make comparisons between any and all countries, nothing is off limits. Conservatives have compared welfare programs to Nazi policies in some cases.

SShiell: Actually for experts in the region, and people like me who followed regional politics there closely (even though my area of expertise is Europe, not the Mideast), the danger was always that after Saddam was gone the whole country could go into turmoil. That was also why President Bush (the Elder) didn’t go on to Baghdad in 1991 (the right decision — the Iraqi army then was also much, much stronger than in 2003 — that could have been a disaster). The fear was always that this would arouse Islamic extremism. The reason Chirac didn’t support the war was fear of what would happen if Islam radicalized, an insurgency and terror groups took advantage of this, and it led to radicalization of France’s minority Muslims. What’s happening is precisely what so many of us feared.

I hope we learned a lesson and realize now that using violence and war as a political tool — especially when we’re the aggressors — is very, very dangerous. I hope we do not do it again unless we have true international backing and it is clearly to stop some kind of atrocities.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Francis, as far as I’m concerned, this country is effectively at 1859, with Democrats once again taking the Copperhead role. Don’t like it? Tough toenails.
 
Written By: SDN
URL: http://
SDN:

this is a link to the Gettysburg Address.

this is a link to a news story in which Odierno said that troop withdrawals may be feasible by next spring.

I might be a Copperhead, but McClellan’s the President.
 
Written By: Francis
URL: http://
"May be feasible" isn’t "run away immediately". Or is English your second language?

And if Abe hadn’t been able to lock up reporters and Copperheads I’d have to worry about smuggling slaves out past you and Senator Kleagle Byrd.
 
Written By: SDN
URL: http://

 
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