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Murtha: the quintessential defeatist
Posted by: McQ on Friday, August 03, 2007

I'm not one to throw the term "defeatist" around very lightly. You have to really say or do something to convince me it is true. And, if this Army Times story is correct, Jack "Okinawa" Murtha has done so:
A key lawmaker said Tuesday that he expects the U.S. Central Command to propose in September an immediate 30,000-troop reduction in the number of U.S. forces in Iraq because of growing belief that the so-called “surge” strategy is working.

Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., the defense appropriations subcommittee chairman who made the prediction, said that does not mean that he believes the situation in Iraq is improving, but that an increasing number of White House and Pentagon officials and Republican lawmakers returning from visits to Iraq are all talking about success.
And the best way to stop all of this success talk is to cripple the means for achieving it before it can completely do so.

But don't question his patriotism, ok?
 
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Previous Comments to this Post 

Comments
You should get checked for MDS. Its related to BDS, but strikes a different population.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Erb, TELL me how McQ’s conclusion is wrong. tell me.

I dare you.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Erb, OK now, we have had this conversation regarding "Semper One" Murtha before. And if I remember, your opinion of Murtha was right up there with Jimmy Carter, Juan Cole and other such illustrious company. In each case you defended virtually the undefendable - undefendable unless you consider yourself one of the Kos Kidz.

Now here you go again. Tell me, without referring to your previous platitudes about Murtha "trying to do the right thing" meme, why you are so enamored of this guy. I really am curious. Your logic at times escapes me but in this you have absolutely stepped off the deep end.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
"If anything, Murtha said that new problems are arising, such as concerns that the new mine-resistant assault vehicles — which are being hurriedly built to provide better protection for deployed troops against increasingly powerful roadside bombs — do not appear to fit into ships. Murtha said it appears that the so-called MRAP vehicles must be delivered instead by air at a cost of $1.2 billion."

MRAPs too big for ships so they have to go by air? What the heck? Abrams tanks normally go by ship because they’re too big for anything but a C17 and it only carries one at a time. Transport ships can carry huge pieces of equipment, surely they can hold an oversized truck.

Is this a joke?

Ah, isn’t the Internet wonderful. According to Secretary of Defense Gates, it normally takes 30 days to deliver an MRAP to Iraq by sea. Apparently, the Pentagon is shipping them by air because of all the pressure to get armored vehicles to the troops as quickly as possible.

Is Murtha all there?
 
Written By: Strick
URL: http://
I don’t question his patriotism I question his judgment. As he is up there as a prime porker I begin to wonder if the amount of pork he can cook is not being negatively affected by the restraints placed on having to finance the Iraqi front.
 
Written By: piscivorous
URL: http://
Look, I don’t agree with a lot of what Murtha says or does. He’s an insider in a system that is sick, with both parties complicite. He’s nowhere near Jimmy Carter in my estimation, I don’t even like him. But it seems that for some of you it’s an emotional, almost irrational hatred, even though he is a decorated veteran who fights for veterans issues. Perhaps he was too quick to speak out about Haditha — he was angry, and he’d apparently been told by his friends in the Pentagon about the worst of the accusations. But really, that’s not enough to fall into some kind of hatred. It’s a lot like some on the left and President Bush. In fact, the right does it to Reid and Pelosi, and they did it to Daschle. The Left does it to Bush and Cheney, and they did it to Rumsfeld. For some reason I think all these people, left and right, are basically trying to do what they think best, often letting bias and self-interest get in the way. I’ll agree or disagree with them sometimes strongly, but I can’t find it in myself to really get emotionally angered or hateful of any of them. I mean, it’s not like we have a Stalin or Hitler in the mix.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
even though he is a decorated veteran who fights for veterans issues.
HE SLANDERED ON INTERNATIONAL TV A GROUP OF MARINES YOU GOD DAMN MORON!!!

He should NEVER have spoken PERIOD. It doesn’t matter what he was told, he should have kept his god damn trap SHUT!

He has been saying Iraq was lost for YEARS!

Murtha doesn’t CARE what the truth is. He just wants to push his view of Iraq and the military now - that of hopelessness, cluelessness, and defeat.

And you, sir, f*cking disgust me.

(damn filter. Clicked "Add Comment" like 10 times beofr I figured out I wasn’t *’ing my word...)
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Too quick?

He was too quick to speak out about Haditha because he was overcome by anger?

The man is an *officer*. It’s that culture thing again, Scott. He did not behave appropriately as an officer.

I’ve explained this before. He was in a position of influence to *ensure* that the event was vigorously investigated. Rather than state assurances that the truth would be found out and the guilty punished he went on television, said that the investigation couldn’t be trusted, that there was a cover-up, and that the soldiers were indisputably guilty. He also portrayed serving Marines and Soldiers as walking a knife edge of atrocity because of the horror of war.

The relationship between officers and enlisted is complex. What enlisted demand of officers is what Murtha abandoned. You don’t get bottom up loyalty without a great amount of top-down loyalty. He threw Marines under the bus for political advantage.

Someone who has been an officer in our military as long as Murtha has will be held to a much *much* higher standard.

That’s part of the deal, too.
 
Written By: Synova
URL: http://synova.blogspot.com
Yup, pure emotion. Try to settle down and think logically. He’s done more in the service of our country than probably all of you have. Give him some slack.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
What you mean is that we should give him permission to act unprofessionally toward his former service and those in it.

Um... no.

 
Written By: Synova
URL: http://synova.blogspot.com
Yup, pure emotion. Try to settle down and think logically. He’s done more in the service of our country than probably all of you have. Give him some slack.
You know what, in the past I’ve tried to at least be minorly civil to you.

But now?

F*ck you, you pompus c*ck. "Than all of us?"

What the f*ck have YOU done, @ss hole?

Don’t give me your "fascinating, Captain" vulcan bull sh*t.

You’re a damned fraud.

His service ended some time ago. Do you blindly allow Senator McCain say and do whatever he wants? Did you support Adm. Stockdale when he was Perot’s VP canidate? Did you vote for Senator Dole when he ran for president?

No? Gee, why not? I mean, they have done more in service for this country than any 30 members of your family ever have combined, so you should have cut them some slack, and just done what they said...

You are the biggest fraud I’ve seen on the net in the last year, and I found Liberal Avenger this year...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
I think Murtha is an idiot.
There’s much about him I don’t understand, but it’s also a mystery to me how Massachusetts can continue to elect it’s present Senators.
That said, I just gotta say-
We HAVE to find a way to start talking with one another, rather than AT one another, or we are in big trouble.
 
Written By: Greybeard
URL: http://pitchpull.blogspot.com
He’s done more in the service of our country than probably all of you have.
Wow Scott - strike 3 - did you not complain about arguing to authority just a few days ago?

Just for sh!ts and giggles, let’s talk about Murtha circa 1980... you remember all those tapes of Mr. re-deploy? Mr. I need $? Care to pass judgment on him????

Didn’t think so...
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
Erb, I gotta hand it to you. You stepped up and gave your position. It is crap! But it is your position and you have a right to hold it.

The problem is the position is untenable. As has been pointed out:
The relationship between officers and enlisted is complex. What enlisted demand of officers is what Murtha abandoned. You don’t get bottom up loyalty without a great amount of top-down loyalty. He threw Marines under the bus for political advantage. Someone who has been an officer in our military as long as Murtha has will be held to a much *much* higher standard.
You do not know the complete and total truth of that statement. It is Officers giving enlisted personnel the respect, dignity and honor they deserve. Here we go with that "honor" thing again. And Murtha betrayed his own Marines. The only dishonor that tops that one is to dishonor your country - and i believe Murtha steps right close to that one as we speak.

There is little or no anger in my voice when I speak of Murtha. It is a cold-blooded awareness on my part of the perfidy of a man who would betray his own kind for political advaqntage. You are right - to compare him to Stalin or Hitler is over the top. Comparing him to Benedict Arnold is much more proper.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
"...a man who would betray his own kind for political advaqntage (sic)"
Professor Erb, being a Quisling at heart, would not understand that.
 
Written By: &amp
URL: http://
We HAVE to find a way to start talking with one another, rather than AT one another, or we are in big trouble.
How exactly are we supposed to do that? Any attempt to point out facts or history is met with lies. Any attempt to be civil is taken as a sign of weakness.

Graybeard, we’re way past talking with these Copperheads. It’s 1859. Whose side are you on?
 
Written By: SDN
URL: http://
SDN-
Your comparison is a valid one, and makes my point exactly. Are we ready to start shooting folks from Massachusetts because they vote for Socialist idiots? The language here indicates maybe some are. I have jokingly talked about secession on my site, hoping to show how ridiculous that idea is, yet Yearly Kos and the reaction to Scott Beauchamp show others don’t yet get the same message.
I’m fearful it’ll take another 9/11 slap upside the head to make the point, but in the meantime, shouting obscenities at one another only succeeds in raising blood pressure and convinces no one of anything.
Those of us that raised our hands and swore to give our lives if necessary to "support and defend" have a different feeling at our core than those that have not. Still, cursing at some confused educator is not gonna convince him he is wrong... to get to that point, he’ll have to be faced with incontrovertible evidence that he must also be willing to die to preserve the freedoms he is granted by those now willing to die so he can spew ignorance.
But how do we get there? I wish I knew... I hope a strong leader emerges who can unite the majority of our country and change our present course.
In the meantime, don’t wrestle with pigs...
You end up smelling like a pig, and the pig enjoys the tussle.
 
Written By: Greybeard
URL: http://pitchpull.blogspot.com
Welcome to the Club, Bruce.

And Erb:

Some slack?
Perhaps. Just before we slap the horse on the ass.

That’s not emotionalism, Erb.
That’s called JUSTICE.
I note herewith you still don’t understand the difference....particularly when there’s a liberal under discussion.




 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
And the best way to stop all of this success talk is to cripple the means for achieving it before it can completely do so.

At Yearly Kos the moonbats shouted down a serviceman who began to talk about the success. Murtha’s plan is just the Congressional equivalent of that.
 
Written By: Aldo
URL: http://
Does anyone seriously believe that Erb would demand we cut Murtha a little slack if Murth were proposing to send an additional 30,000 troops to Iraq or were touting huge recent successes there?
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
I’m noting that MDS is much like BDS — and with very little cause except anger at a few quotes.

SShiell - how did Murtha betray the Marines? By being angry about Haditha? What exactly do you mean by betrayal? His first job now is as a Representative in Congress, that transcends any other loyalty. I don’t especially like him, but geez, some of you get so riled up at how some on the left reacts to Bush that you don’t see the same kind of behavior in your own reaction to Murtha. Both kinds of responses are rooted more in emotion than reason.

Steverino: Note that I’m just as critical of the left for the personal vitriol against the President. It looks very much like the same kind of thing.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Note that I’m just as critical of the left for the personal vitriol against the President
Links, please.

Or are we to be convinced, rather, that you are lying, yet again?
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
Bithead, you’re pretty fast and loose with calling people liars. However, you can’t substantiate their claim. And since I was explicitly stating that "MDS" and "BDS" were both similiar and not based on reason, I clearly was being equally critical of both the attacks on Murtha and those on Bush.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Erb,

Shut the hell up or provide links where you have been critical of Democrats.

What we will not accept as proof:

Any instance where you are critcizing a non-dem/lib and then say "I would be just as upset if a democrat did this".

Go. Provide the links.

Since you say "just as critical", I’ll give you some slack... I’ll allow you to use 5 links to prove your point. You have criticized non-liberals far more often than that, but I just got done watching a great movie, so I’m being kind.

McQ, could you toss up a post with this challenge? Feel free to edit for spelling and grammar.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
SShiell - how did Murtha betray the Marines? By being angry about Haditha? What exactly do you mean by betrayal? His first job now is as a Representative in Congress, that transcends any other loyalty. — Erb
If I may, I’d like to speak to the betrayal and loyalty issues here by offering this YouTube video of a May 2006 interview with Murtha. He repeatedly claims to be telling "exactly what happened" even though he is commenting ahead of concluded investigations — indeed, this is still months ahead of charges being filed against any Marines.

There is a huge difference between being angry about something and running to the press claiming to know "exactly what happened" and that it was in fact criminal.

He betrayed the Marines by rushing to a judgment that would serve (he thought) his own political interests. And how, might I ask, did cynically convicting the Marines in the press show any loyalty to Congress or to any ideal for which this nation it serves is supposed to stand?
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
McQ, could you toss up a post with this challenge?
Jake;

You’re not actually thinking he’s going to respond to such a challenge directly, are you?

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
Steverino: Note that I’m just as critical of the left for the personal vitriol against the President. It looks very much like the same kind of thing.
Calling bullsh*t here. First, whether you have been critical of personal vitriol against the President has absolutely no relation to what I said. I said that you would not be calling for cutting Murtha slack if he were advocating expanding the war. Second, criticizing Murtha for wanting to cut the troops when we’ve got several success stories coming out of Iraq is NOT vitriol. Murtha doesn’t get some magic shield from criticism when he says something stupid. Given that Murtha has long advocated pulling troops out of Iraq, this is just him continuing to tout a policy of abject failure. I don’t know how you get from there to McQ having MDS: McQ’s criticisms have been well-reasoned and impersonal.

Scott Jacobs has you figured out: you’re a fraud.
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
Shut the hell up or provide links where you have been critical of Democrats.
Scott, I have made those criticisms in this thread and many times in comments on Q & O. If you don’t believe me, that’s fine. But it’s surreal that in a thread when I criticize the left for their personal attacks on Bush you want a linke to show that I criticize the left for their personal attacks on Bush. Do you know how utterly bizarre that is?

Steverino: I was appalled by the attacks by the left on Lieberman, even though he supported the war. I dislike these kind of personal attacks in politics whether left or right, so yes, if he were calling for an increase in troops I’d still think that personal attacks go way overboard. You and Scott like to call names, but you can’t back it up. That’s the thing — everything becomes so personal that even if you agree with someone you’ve decided you don’t like you simply refuse to believe it. Amazing.

Linda, rushing to judgment based on info he got from insiders in the Pentagon was a mistake. Betrayal seems harsh to me. Also, you’re assuming it was out of political reasons; I think he was reflecting the attitudes of Pentagon insiders — people in the military — who disliked the war.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
SShiell - how did Murtha betray the Marines?
Linda answered the question very nicely (Thank you, Linda).
He repeatedly claims to be telling "exactly what happened" even though he is commenting ahead of concluded investigations — indeed, this is still months ahead of charges being filed against any Marines. There is a huge difference between being angry about something and running to the press claiming to know "exactly what happened" and that it was in fact criminal. He betrayed the Marines by rushing to a judgment that would serve (he thought) his own political interests.
You further state:
His first job now is as a Representative in Congress, that transcends any other loyalty.
When he was sworn in as a member of the House of Representative he swore an oath, not to Congress, but to uphold the Contitution of the United States. It is to the Constitution to which he owes his loyalty and the last time I checked, due procees was still part of that document. How many of the rights of those Marines did he step on with his accusations and claims of guilt.

Additionally, Erb, I for one would like you to respond to Linda’s question:
And how, might I ask, did cynically convicting the Marines in the press show any loyalty to Congress or to any ideal for which this nation it serves is supposed to stand?
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
SShiell, I think he had info from his inside sources in the Pentagon, reacted emotionally and made an error in judgment by not waiting for the investigation. I think that was a mistake. I also disagree that his oath defines his responsibility. His responsibility as a law maker goes far beyond just defending the constitution, but to represent his constituents and try to make the best policy decisions. If he believes the war is hurting the US, he has a responsibility to oppose it.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Steverino: I was appalled by the attacks by the left on Lieberman, even though he supported the war. I dislike these kind of personal attacks in politics whether left or right, so yes, if he were calling for an increase in troops I’d still think that personal attacks go way overboard. You and Scott like to call names, but you can’t back it up. That’s the thing — everything becomes so personal that even if you agree with someone you’ve decided you don’t like you simply refuse to believe it. Amazing.
Again, you duck the issue. The only time you have called for folks to cut a former member of the military slack is with Murtha. You’ve never done it any other time. If you can show me ONE comment on this blog where you call for slack for a conservative (or war-supporter) simply because he served in the military, I’ll recant.

And you refuse to admit that McQ was making a valid criticism of Murtha: you accused him of MDS...so, you’re not exactly above name-calling.

I’ll back up anything I write here. I’ve been commenting here since Jon started the blog, and I don’t back down.

The more you post, the more you convince people of your duplicity and dishonesty.
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
I think he had info from his inside sources in the Pentagon, reacted emotionally and made an error in judgment by not waiting for the investigation.
What evidence do you have to support your conjecture that Murtha was relying on sources inside the Pentagon? Suppose he wasn’t relying on Pentagon sources....is his "error in judgement" any more severe?
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
OK, Steverino, here it is. I’m not about to waste time digging through all the threads I’ve commented on to try to find examples — convincing you is hardly worth doing that. So I’ll just write it here — now it is, officially in the blog. I, Professor of Political Science Scott D. Erb hereby state for the record:

The attacks on Joseph Lieberman by the left because of his support of the Iraq war were often vicious and over the top. His career has been one of a progressive support for principled government, and while I often disagreed with him, he did not deserve the way he was treated and I would have voted for him for Senate if I was living in Connecticut, even though I totally oppose his position on the war.

The attacks on President Bush by the left are also often vicious and over the top. I think he genuinely means well, I really respect his focus on physical fitness, and he’s done something politicians rarely do — learn. While I still oppose his policies on Iraq, he’s improved them dramatically by making fundamental shifts in policy since 2005. This is often ignored by many who simply have turned Bush into a caricature created more by their imagination of what he is than a rational look at the information.

And yes, if I’m wrong about Murtha’s sources — if he didn’t have sources he was absolutely convinced had sound and certain military information — then his lapse in judgement was more severe.

Moreover, I think many criticisms of Murtha by McQ and others are valid, but they take it to an extreme. Look, I’ll make criticisms of Lieberman’s statements about Iraq, and some of these might be severe and harsh. BUT I will not say Joseph Lieberman lacks integrity and is a bad person, nor will I mock him. Same with the President. (I admit it’s harder with the Vice President, Cheney’s been my least favorite politician since back when he was Bush Senior’s Secretary of Defense, but I try!) The "MDS" is like "BDS" when criticisms of Murtha’s position morph into ridicule and insult of the person himself. IOW, you can strongly disagree with someone, really detest their politics, their ideas, and their assumptions WITHOUT having to dislike or detest that person.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
OK, Steverino, here it is. I’m not about to waste time digging through all the threads I’ve commented on to try to find examples
Do I call ’em?

Truly pathetic. You’re going to have to do a lot better than that if you’re going to convince anybody, Erb.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
The attacks on Joseph Lieberman by the left because of his support of the Iraq war were often vicious and over the top.
and
The attacks on President Bush by the left are also often vicious and over the top.
I’ll give you the first. Provide ONE link where you have stated this in the past on this blog.

Hell, I’ll even allow you to link your hack-blog (switch to a form that allows comments and I’ll start to think you might not be a cowardly fraud).

So that’s two. Gimme three more.

I’m waiting.

If you have done it so much, it should be simple for you to prove.

Do so.

Also, you must not actually know what BDS is.

honestly, the best definition is on,m of all things, Wikipedia.

Here it is.

Professor, educate thy self.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Maybe, Scott, you’re a bit unaware of just how terrifying a thought it is to enlisted to promote the indulgence of anger fueled decision making by officers?

Saying that Murtha only did that stupid thing because he was *angry* is not a defense of him!

What almost makes *me* more angry is the insistence that I’ve got no grounds to be angry. That Murtha is great for the troops and pure as fallen snow and any criticism whatsoever is *obviously* political in nature.

I don’t recall if you ever made that exact claim but generally that’s it. Look at all the good he’s done, how wonderful he is, how dare I tear into him just because I don’t like his politics? He had every ability to see justice done but he indulged in actions that defamed the Marine Corp. He went on television and said that our soldiers, in effect, are monsters. He could have supported Marines while assuring us that the truth would be got to and the guilty punished.

Why. Didn’t. He.

(Making fun of the Okinawa Option is just that... fun.)

 
Written By: Synova
URL: http://synova.blogspot.com
I also disagree that his oath defines his responsibility.
Then what does? There is no written test for a member of Congress to pass before he serves. There is no secret handshake, no hell week the potential member of congress must endure. He must be elected and then he must swear an oath. And you and I have a basic disagreement with what it means to raise your hand and swear such an oath.

The voters of the district elected a person to represent their views. They did not dictate how. As I see it, there are four basic ways a member of Congress can represent his constituents. You can vote how you believe the majority of the constituents in your district would want you to vote (Surveys, polls or even gut instinct). You could vote your conscience. You can vote strainght Party Line. Or you could blow all of these methods off and just do whatever the h*ll you wanted to. Show me how he has reflected the will of the people from his district by his actions toward the Marines of Haditha?

But in no event do you swear to any of that. But you still have to swear that oath. it is the one thing you cannot escape. And an honorable man is bound by that oath. And that is the crux of our points to you - honor!

I can understand making a mistake - Lord knows I have made a number of them in my life. And you can redeem yourself when you make a mistake. You can apologize. You can make amends. He has done nothing to redeem himself. He does not even admit he made a mistake and in fact is repeating the mistake virtually on a daily basis.

This is not a partisan thing, I will step hard on any politician that does a similar act. This is not an angry position, this is a cold-blooded evaluation of a mans actions. It is a very black and white situation. He either is or is not an honorable man. Simply based upon the oath he willingly took for this position as a member of the House of Representatives HE IS NOT AN HONORABLE MAN!
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
What almost makes *me* more angry is the insistence that I’ve got no grounds to be angry. That Murtha is great for the troops and pure as fallen snow and any criticism whatsoever is *obviously* political in nature.
Synova, the next thing Erb will be telling us is that at least Murtha got the trains to run on time!
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
I’ll end simply noting I disagree with you all about Murtha, and note how easily you throw away his military service and support for veterans because of one quote. That isn’t rational, IMO. I also think oaths are mostly symbolic; I refuse to take oaths, I don’t believe in them. So we have a different perspective; that’s what makes life interesting.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Synova, of course you can be mad. I’m talking about long term hatred and ridicule. I find that to be irrational. But some of you just have an intense dislike of him or think him dishonorable. Others disagree, the voters in his district, of course, have the last word.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
OK, Steverino, here it is. I’m not about to waste time digging through all the threads I’ve commented on to try to find examples — convincing you is hardly worth doing that. So I’ll just write it here — now it is, officially in the blog. I, Professor of Political Science Scott D. Erb hereby state for the record:....
You didn’t address my point AGAIN. I told you I wanted one link to show that you had called for others to give an ex-military man some slack just because of his service. You didn’t do it. You’re not fooling anyone here but yourself.

Second, you didn’t show how anything McQ said rose to the level of "personal attacks" or "MDS", as you accused him of in your very first post on this thread. You haven’t even shown how anything McQ said in the original post was wrong.

You’re a fraud. When called on your own comments, you deflect and change the words and try to wiggle your way out of them.

 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
And yes, if I’m wrong about Murtha’s sources — if he didn’t have sources he was absolutely convinced had sound and certain military information — then his lapse in judgement was more severe.
So, you don’t have anything beyond your own conjecture — or wishful thinking — to show that Murtha was relying on sources inside the Pentagon?
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
I also disagree that his oath defines his responsibility.
That statement only works if you believe, as Erb apparently does, that there are no absolutes.

I’ll end simply noting I disagree with you all about Murtha, and note how easily you throw away his military service and support for veterans because of one quote.
No. He threw away his military service. We merely observe. And, of course, it isn’t just one quote. It’s several quotes and several actions. We simply make note of the most egregious offenses. Ones you choose to ignore.





 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
You’re a fraud. When called on your own comments, you deflect and change the words and try to wiggle your way out of them.
Like I said... I called it.
Not that in this case, that was any great feat.

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
Hmmm, I give you very direct quotes, extremely critical of people who unduly criticize the President and war supporters like Lieberman. Clear, precise, and direct. And you guys snip them and then lie and call me names. Amazing. Well, Bithead and Steverino, thanks for giving an example of a complete lack of honor in internet posting. I’m just amazed that you can do it when my own post is right there for all to see.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
I’ll end simply noting I disagree with you all about Murtha, and note how easily you throw away his military service and support for veterans because of one quote
Show me one time where I discredited his military service or his support of veterans affairs. Just one! And looking back over the comments of others, no one else has made any statements regarding Murtha’s prior service or support of Veteran’s affairs. I, and others, have stated time and again his insistence on the absolute "guilt" of the Haditha Marines has put him at odds to the honor of his current service. And it is just not one quote. Time and again he has stated this position.
I also think oaths are mostly symbolic; I refuse to take oaths, I don’t believe in them.
And that tells me all I need to know about you. It explains a lot about your attitudes about honor and integrity - you have neither if your words within this blog are to be believed.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
Integrity: possession of firm principles: the quality of possessing and steadfastly adhering to high moral principles or professional standards.
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Synonyms: honesty, truthfulness, honor, veracity, reliability, uprightness

Professor Erb is a certified expert on the meaning of the word “integrity”; Professor Erb has been academically trained in how to expertly write about integrity; Professor Erb has polished his skills incessantly writing about integrity. Professor Erb lacks integrity.
 
Written By: notherbob2
URL: http://
SShiell, you again go into insults, but you have no substance. I don’t believe in oathes, I believe ethical behavior should be the standard in every situation. I try to behave ethically regardless of an oath or not — an oath assumes that one would want to behave unethically. Moreover, if ethics demand I violate an oath, I put ethics ahead of oaths.

A bunch of you all upset because I criticize the personal rather than political attacks on Murtha. You also seem to want to be denial about how I’m just as critical of attacks by the Left on individuals on the right. Too much of that is making politics more sport than serious discussion. Insult if you want, but it’s like you students: in a debate when the other side isn’t talking substance and just calling names, that means you’ve won and they aren’t willing to admit it. You me anywhere where I lied, showed a lack of integrity, or a lack of honor in posting. If you can’t do it, it is dishonorable for you to make such charges.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Well, Bithead and Steverino, thanks for giving an example of a complete lack of honor in internet posting. I’m just amazed that you can do it when my own post is right there for all to see.
Oh, stuff it, Erb. I have asked you repeatedly to show that you have called for slack for a conservative ex-military man simply because of his service. You haven’t done that.

I have asked you repeatedly to show how McQ was engaging in personal attacks, and to justify your claim that he was suffering from MDS. You haven’t done that.

I have asked you to show any factual support for your conjecture that Murtha was getting his info on Haditha from Pentagon sources. You haven’t done that.

And you have the nerve to accuse me of a lack of honor? You wouldn’t know honor if slapped you in the face. You are completely intellectually dishonest. You are a fraud, a liar, and a fool.
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://steverino.journalspace.com/
Hmmm, I give you very direct quotes, extremely critical of people who unduly criticize the President and war supporters like Lieberman. Clear, precise, and direct. And you guys snip them and then lie and call me names. Amazing. Well, Bithead and Steverino, thanks for giving an example of a complete lack of honor in internet posting. I’m just amazed that you can do it when my own post is right there for all to see.
LINKS you retard. LINKS

LINK us to instances where you are critical of the democrats.

I even said you could use YOUR blog.

And yet you run away, without a single instance provided throiugh links.

God, you must be STUNNING in the classroom.

McQ, can you ban this fraud yet? Pretty please?
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Steverino, you are clearly wrong. Here’s proof I said the following earlier in this post:

, I clearly was being equally critical of both the attacks on Murtha and those on Bush.

I was referring to my first post in this thread:

It’s a lot like some on the left and President Bush. In fact, the right does it to Reid and Pelosi, and they did it to Daschle. The Left does it to Bush and Cheney, and they did it to Rumsfeld. For some reason I think all these people, left and right, are basically trying to do what they think best, often letting bias and self-interest get in the way. I’ll agree or disagree with them sometimes strongly, but I can’t find it in myself to really get emotionally angered or hateful of any of them. I mean, it’s not like we have a Stalin or Hitler in the mix.

See, I was being just as critical, and I am just as critical. I didn’t say anything about ’cutting slack’ and since I was referring to my earlier post asking for links is absurd — the post is right on this page! Read it. Carefully. And then show anything I said that would remotely require "links" to prove my point, or anything I said that is untrue.

You can’t. You know it. Do you have integrity and honor to admit it? If you can admit your mistake I won’t hold it against you or rub it in your face; indeed, it takes honor to admit an error.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Scott, read what I wrote to Steverino. What did I say that would remotely require links? Nothing. Unless you can find anything I wrote that at all needs links to prove, you should apologize. If you have any honor, you will.

Again, just in case you can’t read carefully: I made a post critical of attacks on Murtha and in that same post I was critical of the left for attacking Bush and Cheney. Later on, referring to that post I noted I was being equally critical of the left. If you read the first post, you’ll see that statement is true. That was followed by a bizarre demand for links. So, Scott, can you put up? Can you show me what requires links? And if not, do you have the honor to apologize for your insults? Somehow, I think I know the answer.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Scott, read what I wrote to Steverino. What did I say that would remotely require links? Nothing. Unless you can find anything I wrote that at all needs links to prove, you should apologize. If you have any honor, you will.
You’re dodging, Erb.
ANd just so you know... Everyone reading this thread knows it, but you.

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
Scott, read what I wrote to Steverino. What did I say that would remotely require links? Nothing. Unless you can find anything I wrote that at all needs links to prove, you should apologize. If you have any honor, you will.

Again, just in case you can’t read carefully: I made a post critical of attacks on Murtha and in that same post I was critical of the left for attacking Bush and Cheney. Later on, referring to that post I noted I was being equally critical of the left. If you read the first post, you’ll see that statement is true. That was followed by a bizarre demand for links. So, Scott, can you put up? Can you show me what requires links? And if not, do you have the honor to apologize for your insults? Somehow, I think I know the answer.
I will appologize the moment I have something to appologize for.

First, since you have no concept of the application of honor, honesty, or integrity, I find your attempt to call into question MY Honor to be laughable at best and a direct insult at worst. In the olden days, I’d challenge you to a duel over this matter.

You posted something critical of Bush’s attackers HERE, in this thread. I have NEVER seen you post ANYTHING anywhere else that suggested you have done the same at any other point in history. I have requested you prove your assertation that you have.

You then immedeately went into deflection mode, and haven’t risen to the challenge. It’s been my experiance that when that happens, it is because the person is unable to defend themselves with fact. If you are being truthful, it should be quite easy for you to prove it. You refuse to prove your claim, so we are left to conclude (correctly) that your claim is false.

I requested 5 links proving your claim. I even said you could use your own non-blog. I even gave you two points for what you posted here. You still refuse to prove your claim.

I will appologize when you prove me wrong.

I don’t exspect I’ll have to appologize.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Seems to me I asked him for links, as well.

I said:

Links, please.

Or are we to be convinced, rather, that you are lying, yet again?
And since he has failed to rise to the challenge, I am forced to conclude that my original observation was correct.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
I move that no one here ever respond to a single thing Erb ever posts again. He’s beyond contempt.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
"Tell me, without referring to your previous platitudes about Murtha "trying to do the right thing" meme, why you are so enamored of this guy"

Because most everyone else here isn’t.

"He’s done more in the service of our country than probably all of you have. Give him some slack."

He was given quite a bit of slack. He used it to fashion a noose and put it around his own neck.


"What the f*ck have YOU done, @ss hole?"

Why, he once worked in the Senate. Didn’t you know? He also has obeyed all the laws, always stopped at stop signs, and ate all his vegetables.

"His first job now is as a Representative in Congress, that transcends any other loyalty"


I guess that includes any loyalty to his constituents, the idea of due process, innocent until proven guilty, and other irrelevant constitutional and/or legal niceties.

"Linda, rushing to judgment based on info he got from insiders in the Pentagon was a mistake."

Acting on the basis of rumors is more than a mistake for a man of his experience and position. Particularly if such actions can reasonably be foreseen to cause harm to others.

" I think he was reflecting the attitudes of Pentagon insiders"

Not his job. His duty as a congressman is to serve his constituents and the country. That should, as you say, transcend any other loyalty, including that to Pentagon insiders.

"His responsibility as a law maker goes far beyond just defending the constitution, but to represent his constituents and try to make the best policy decisions"

Care to explain how accusing Marines of criminal acts without evidence and before their constitutionally guaranteed trials defends the Constiturion, serves his constituents, and makes a good policy decision?


"What evidence do you have to support your conjecture that Murtha was relying on sources inside the Pentagon?"

Didn’t you know? He used to work in the Senate, so he knows how these things work, as opposed to the rest of you ignorant rubes.

**********************8

GRIMSHAW

Come out, come out, wherever you are. Time to defend the indefensible and point out to us how we nasty brutes are picking on poor old Erb.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
First again: I don’t really like Murtha, his style and many of his political stances. I just don’t believe that demonizing him is any better than those demonizing Bush or Cheney. To me attacks on people like Murtha and Carter render the attacker to look much like the people who attack Bush and his allies.

Timactual, the quotes you give certainly aren’t anything dramatic. All I’ve said this post is: a) Murtha’s service record is impressive, certainly beyond that of most people postin; b) Murtha has inside contacts with the Pentagon, and I’ve read speculation that’s how he got the Haditha information; c) Murtha should not have talked about the Marines and Haditha the way he did without an investigation — he should have respected the fact that information was sketchy, that was a mistake; and d) his main loyalty isn’t to the Marines but Congress and the public.

None of that is dramatic or even controversial. I might be wrong by thinking he got his Haditha information from sources in the Pentagon. Here, though, is what Murtha said in response to the Time magazine story on Haditha:

It’s much worse than reported in Time magazine. There was no fire fight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood. And that’s what the report is going to tell.

Now, you can imagine the impact this is going to have on those troops for the rest of their lives and for the United States in our war and our effort in trying to win the hearts and minds.


How could he have this information without getting it from an inside source? Given his ties to the Pentagon, that’s a logicl conclusion. I may be wrong, but as I recall that was the conventional wisdom at the time. The Wikipedia entry for Murtha notes after the quote:

The Marine Corps responded to Murtha’s announcement by stating that "there is an ongoing investigation; therefore, any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process."[26] Murtha was criticized by conservatives for presenting a version of events as simple fact before an official investigation had been concluded.[27] As details of the Pentagon investigation’s findings have emerged, however, they have been consistent with Murtha’s characterization."[28]

(Go to Wikipedia for the cites). Now, there has recently been a report saying that the evidence is too scant to convict according to one investigator. We’ll see how that plays out, though clearly the original investigation did seem to mirror Murtha’s claims, and if it turns out that that investigation was flawed, it shows that Murtha really should have held his mouth. (Though I’d note that he could claim he was saying what the report was going to say, and in that and he seems to have been pretty accurate.)

So again, I see a lot of insults, dodges, weaves, but nothing substantive against anything I’ve said, or about any of my claims.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
So again, I see a lot of insults, dodges, weaves, but nothing substantive against anything I’ve said, or about any of my claims.
Actually, we have absolutely challenged your claim. It is up to you, the person making the claim, to prove what you say.

If it weren’t, I could claim you rape 2 year old boys, and you would have to prove me wrong. That isn’t how it works. You have made an affirmative defense Erb. YOU have to do the work.

Or just admit that you can’t.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
I have made those criticisms...many times in comments on Q & O
Erb will never back up what he says. Never.
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Actually, we have absolutely challenged your claim.
What claim? Be specific.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Erb,

Shut the hell up or provide links where you have been critical of Democrats.

What we will not accept as proof:

Any instance where you are critcizing a non-dem/lib and then say "I would be just as upset if a democrat did this".

Go. Provide the links.

Since you say "just as critical", I’ll give you some slack... I’ll allow you to use 5 links to prove your point. You have criticized non-liberals far more often than that, but I just got done watching a great movie, so I’m being kind.

McQ, could you toss up a post with this challenge? Feel free to edit for spelling and grammar.
Go and support your claim, with links, that you are equally critical of liberals.

And now, it’s back to the full 5. You’ve been acting like a douche over this.

Links, or just go home.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Oh, and the links have to be from posts prior to this one, and really, try and make sure they are actually different, and not just the same post 5 times.

I’m waiting.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Scott, you’re not posting any claim I made. You’ve made up something different and claim it’s my claim. Again, I posted:

It’s a lot like some on the left and President Bush. In fact, the right does it to Reid and Pelosi, and they did it to Daschle. The Left does it to Bush and Cheney, and they did it to Rumsfeld. For some reason I think all these people, left and right, are basically trying to do what they think best, often letting bias and self-interest get in the way. I’ll agree or disagree with them sometimes strongly, but I can’t find it in myself to really get emotionally angered or hateful of any of them. I mean, it’s not like we have a Stalin or Hitler in the mix.

In response to criticism I replied, referring to my post : I clearly was being equally critical of both the attacks on Murtha and those on Bush.

That’s my claim, and the quote above proves it. If you want me to prove any other claim, please post that claim in my words, and don’t make up your own claim and attribute it to me.

 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Steverino: Note that I’m just as critical of the left for the personal vitriol against the President.
Support that claim.

Or
Shut
Up
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Scott, I did. Look in this thread and you’ll see that criticism. If that’s not enough support for you, that’s not my problem. But I not only posted the quote above where I compared attacks on Murtha with attacks and Bush and found them basically the same, I also explicitly said:

The attacks on Joseph Lieberman by the left because of his support of the Iraq war were often vicious and over the top. His career has been one of a progressive support for principled government, and while I often disagreed with him, he did not deserve the way he was treated and I would have voted for him for Senate if I was living in Connecticut, even though I totally oppose his position on the war.

The attacks on President Bush by the left are also often vicious and over the top. I think he genuinely means well, I really respect his focus on physical fitness, and he’s done something politicians rarely do — learn. While I still oppose his policies on Iraq, he’s improved them dramatically by making fundamental shifts in policy since 2005. This is often ignored by many who simply have turned Bush into a caricature created more by their imagination of what he is than a rational look at the information.


You can’t counter the fact that I’m clearly equally critical of personal attacks on each side. You want to pretend that somehow I claimed that in the past I’ve posted equal numbers of criticisms. Probably not. I don’t read or comment on liberal blogs that attack Bush and Cheney personally — those websites don’t interest me. But my claim wasn’t about quantity of posts in the past. It is simple: I am equally critical of personal attacks by both sides. If you think that’s not true, then go ahead and prove me wrong. But I’ve given ample proof in this thread that it is true.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
No. You didn’t.

You never provided links.

Provide links.

If you have been so prolific in your stance against BDS, it should be quite easy fro you to come up with 5 seperate instances.

Prove what you have said. Cite your work.

The words you wrote there first appears, to my knowledge, HERE. In this thread.

That is not proof of your being equally critical.

Prove
Your
Claim.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Again, Scott, my claim is proven in this thread. There is no need for links, I made no claim about posting things on the internet in the past. I obviously have never claimed to be "prolific in my stance against BDS." Why do you make stuff up? Oh well, this will go back and forth, unless you have anything real, you can have the last word in this thread.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Again, Scott, my claim is proven in this thread.
No, it’s not.

You’re not going to wiggle your way out of this one.

Prove your claim, as we’ve repeatedly asked you to do, or retract it.

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
I obviously have never claimed to be "prolific in my stance against BDS."
You stated you were equally critical, and since you defend Murtha with surprising zeal (considering you don’t like the guy much), I have asked - repeatedly - for you to back up your claim.

Support your conclusion. Cite work. You’re an academic, so surely you know how to do that...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
I note that you never answered my FIRST challenege, that is you never explained exactly how McQ is wrong in his deduction regarding Murtha.

But, since you REALLY resist giving links, we’ll stick to that one for now.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
doh!

*insert sound of crickets chirping*

There... that’s better...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Scott J, Erb has left the building. As per the typical Erb tactic, when pushed to the wall, he sneaks around it and takes off running. I hope he will respond to you but I have given up on any meaningful dialogue from him on my points regarding Murtha.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
This is exactly why his Blog doesn’t allow comments.

I hope McQ makes my challenge to Erb official.

Again, the rules:

5 links where he is critical of attacks on Bush/Bush’s people/Bush’s policies.

These links can not be from this thread, or any thread started after this one.

These links are not valid if the criticism is along the lines of "if so-and-so did this, I would be equally critical". Such an arguement is invalid since it is not, in fact, critical of anyone or anything. It is a hypothetical, not reality.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
I have given up on any meaningful dialogue from him on my points regarding Murtha.
SSHiell, we probably have to agree to disagree on Murtha. I respect that you see him as having dishonored the military by his talk on Haditha; you see that as someone who has served in the military, I see it as just more political talk. I do understand the reaction against Murtha more having read you and Synova’s response — even if you misunderstand what I meant by saying I was opposed to oaths (and I wasn’t clear on that, I admit).

In general my argument isn’t really so much about Murtha but about our political discourse — that people on the left and right are too quick to engage in intense, angry personal attacks rather than discuss the issues and substance. The left does this to Bush and Cheney, the right to Murtha and Pelosi, and so we get leaders constantly demonized and ridiculed rather than listened to and countered. My own approach is to separate the content from the person, and focus on the content. I suspect most people, including politicians, are decent people with flaws.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
*chuckles*

You sure called it SShiell...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
SShiell ... Erb considers repeated denial to be "debate" and, thus, feels that if he can get the last word in (or comment), he wins. Hide and watch.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Does Erb actually contribute to the level of debate here?

Honestly, do you have to keep him around, McQ? Dale? Someone?

Why is he still here?
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Erb, my animosity toward Murtha is not just one of frustration regarding his actions toward the Haditha Marines but his continued activities regarding that initial outburst of his. I have a good friend in his district who has tried numerous times (via letter, phone and e-mail) to engage Murtha is some sort - any sort - of dialogue about his position. Numerous veteran groups (VFW, etc.) have tried to engage him in a dialogue regarding his position and all have been met with disdain or have been ignored.

On the other hand, he has been eager to meet with Code Pink and other anti-war and Leftist organizations regardless of their constituency. And when he does so he repeats his rantings against the war in general and the Haditha Marines specifically.
My own approach is to separate the content from the person, and focus on the content.
And what do you think this is? But you cannot seperate this content from this person - show me any other member of Congress who continually parades the Haditha Marines as his showcase? There aren’t any. Yeah, you will find stupid comments about the war from Reid, Pelosi, Durbin, Kerry, Kennedy, and a host of others including Murtha but only Murtha parades his disdain for the Marines.
I suspect most people, including politicians, are decent people with flaws.
And in that, I agree with you. But even you say "most people" and, for my two cents, Murtha’s actions have taken himself out of that arena.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
Does Erb actually contribute to the level of debate here?

Honestly, do you have to keep him around, McQ? Dale? Someone?

Why is he still here?
It’s an open board and his commentary is both instructive and telling. It usually provides the counter-argument, in some form or fashion, to what is posted and quickly demonstrates the paucity of that counter-argument for all to see.

So in that regard, he’s really quite useful in a roll-your-eyes sort of way. And he demonstrates daily the bankruptcy of thought among a good portion of today’s academia. In fact he’s their poster boy. We don’t have to use generalities here when talking about that particular issue ... we have Erb to whom we can point.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Fair enough...

But can’t you, I dunno, hold his feet to the fire?
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
But can’t you, I dunno, hold his feet to the fire?
Why would I? His daily comments and then avoidance of real debate do far more to make the arguments I’m making than if I tried to hold his feet to the fire

Besides, dealing with him isn’t characterized as "trying to nail mercury to the wall" for nothing.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Erb, my animosity toward Murtha is not just one of frustration regarding his actions toward the Haditha Marines but his continued activities regarding that initial outburst of his. I have a good friend in his district who has tried numerous times (via letter, phone and e-mail) to engage Murtha is some sort - any sort - of dialogue about his position. Numerous veteran groups (VFW, etc.) have tried to engage him in a dialogue regarding his position and all have been met with disdain or have been ignored.
Fair enough — that certainly suggests arrogance on his part.
And what do you think this is? But you cannot seperate this content from this person - show me any other member of Congress who continually parades the Haditha Marines as his showcase? There aren’t any. Yeah, you will find stupid comments about the war from Reid, Pelosi, Durbin, Kerry, Kennedy, and a host of others including Murtha but only Murtha parades his disdain for the Marines.
OK...I admit you know a lot more about Murtha than I do, so I can’t really argue. My impression was that he believed this war was taking otherwise honorable young people and unnecessarily putting them in positions which would cause them to engage in acts that would haunt them, or crack under pressure and commit atrocities. I figured he knew from experience that this happens in war too often. So I’ve always assumed he believed he was fighting for people in the military to get them out of an unnecessary war. That’s why I thought you and others were over-reacting — it’s just a different perspective on the war.

However, your points on who he talks to and doesn’t talk to, and how he "parades" Haditha, assuming they are true (and I have no reason to doubt you), certainly explains why you believe it’s beyond just a different perspective, and is in fact political opportunism. If I understand you right, you’re disgusted by political opportunism at the expense of military people not convicted of any crime, done by someone who was once a Marine himself.

I still don’t share as negative view of him as you have, but I’ll lay off the charges and "MDS," I was wrong in making that charge. I do see rationality in your perspective, not just emotion.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Yooooooooooooo-hooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Oh Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrb!

Over here, slappy... You working on those links?
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
I still don’t share as negative view of him as you have
You also don’t believe in oaths, or encounter honor in your line of work.

So that you would have differing opinions than the rest of us is hardly shocking...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
" ...I’ve read speculation..."

Tut, tut. What would Mr. Spock say about using speculation?


"How could he have this information without getting it from an inside source?"

And as even an outsider like me knows, an "inside source" is infallible. And, as you quote, "there is an ongoing investigation; therefore, any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process".


"and if it turns out that that investigation was flawed, it shows that Murtha really should have held his mouth."

No, not just if the investigation was flawed. He had no legitimate reason to shoot off his mouth even if it wasn’t. His accuracy or embarrassment is not the issue.

:" I am equally critical of personal attacks by both sides."

Note the tense; "I AM..."

********************

"Steverino: Note that I’m just as critical of the left for the personal vitriol against the President.
Support that claim."

"I’m not about to waste time digging through all the threads I’ve commented on to try to find examples "
"I was referring to my first post in this thread"

I think you have your answer, or at least the only one you will get. There is no past, the present is all we have. Very convenient. Like a chameleon.

"This is exactly why his Blog doesn’t allow comments."

I would be willing to bet that it does, however, allow editing.

**************************
"In general my argument isn’t really so much about Murtha but about our political discourse...My own approach is to separate the content from the person, and focus on the content. "

You seem to have forgotten that the subject of this thread IS Murtha. At least for us. For you it seems to be you.
"I respect..."
"I see it..."
"I do understand..."
"...what I meant..."
"My argument..."
"My own approach..."
"I suspect..."

And that is from just one comment.

************************
"Does Erb actually contribute to the level of debate here?"

The quality? Probably not. The quantity? Oh, yeah.


"So in that regard, he’s really quite useful in a roll-your-eyes sort of way."

Yeah. Like the slides that pathologists keep as references.



 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
If I understand you right, you’re disgusted by political opportunism at the expense of military people not convicted of any crime, done by someone who was once a Marine himself.
In a nutshell! And that holds true regardless of political afilliation.
I still don’t share as negative view of him as you have, but I’ll lay off the charges and "MDS," I was wrong in making that charge. I do see rationality in your perspective, not just emotion.
Thank you for that, Erb. For what it is worth, the essence of my words in these comments are no different from others in the discussion. They also deserve some notice, unless you intended the comment to me to be for all.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
Thank you for that, Erb. For what it is worth, the essence of my words in these comments are no different from others in the discussion. They also deserve some notice, unless you intended the comment to me to be for all.
The comment is in general for all — I withdraw the charge that MDS is pure emotion, no different than "BDS," and at least unless I find out new and different information that might be applicable, I’ll refrain from criticizing criticisms of Murtha.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
*chuckles*

Damn. It’s like watching the Special Olympics...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Damn, SJ, another monitor?
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
Swallow your drink now, SShiell...

...

...

Ok.
It’s like watching the Special Olympics
Because I’m laughing at him, and feeling guilty because of it.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Damn. It’s like watching the Special Olympics...
Now that was special!
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://

 
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