Meta-Blog

SEARCH QandO

Email:
Jon Henke
Bruce "McQ" McQuain
Dale Franks
Bryan Pick
Billy Hollis
Lance Paddock
MichaelW

BLOGROLL QandO

 
 
Recent Posts
The Ayers Resurrection Tour
Special Friends Get Special Breaks
One Hour
The Hope and Change Express - stalled in the slow lane
Michael Steele New RNC Chairman
Things that make you go "hmmmm"...
Oh yeah, that "rule of law" thing ...
Putting Dollar Signs in Front Of The AGW Hoax
Moving toward a 60 vote majority?
Do As I Say ....
 
 
QandO Newsroom

Newsroom Home Page

US News

US National News
Politics
Business
Science
Technology
Health
Entertainment
Sports
Opinion/Editorial

International News

Top World New
Iraq News
Mideast Conflict

Blogging

Blogpulse Daily Highlights
Daypop Top 40 Links

Regional

Regional News

Publications

News Publications

 
Immigration Politics
Posted by: Dale Franks on Tuesday, November 06, 2007

It's been a week since Hillary Clinton's non-answer answer to the debate question about whether she supported NY Gov. Elliot Spitzer's plan to allow illegal aliens to obtain driver's licenses. And, one week on, she's still fumbling with that answer.

That is a bit surprising. Not because Hillary Clinton is apparently trying to find a middle ground that is acceptable to everyone. No surprise there. What is surprising is that she is doing so despite polling that pretty clearly indicates that a bit more than 3/4 of the electorate is against it. Those of us who remember the Clinton Administration can probably recall that President Clinton was rather responsive to polling (he said with elegant understatement). With that history in mind, it's surprising that Ms. Clinton doesn't just come out against it.

The thing is, as I've mentioned before, there are powerful constituencies in both parties that are happy to see illegal immigration relatively uncontrolled. Nominally Republican business people like it because it not only supplies low-cost labor, it depresses wages for almost all blue collar workers across the board. Democratic activist like it because they assume that large number of immigrants from countries with a far more Marxist political-economic outlook will end up voting Democrat when they or their children, obtain the franchise here.

Since those are powerful constituencies for the major parties, the parties are relatively accomodationist towards illegal immigration. The electorate, on the other hand is much less so than the political elites.

Since most of you don't listen to the podcast, I want to repeat something I said there.

If things continue as they have been, Iraq will cease to be a major issue in the upcoming campaign. I would not be surprised to see the US declare victory and pull the vast majority of out troops out of there. Perhaps they can be used to shore up Afghanistan, since something needs to. But that's another post.

In that case, if illegal immigration becomes a major issue in '08, then I would not be surprised at all to see the candidate with the toughest stance against it win.

The reason I think so is because, of all the issues out there, immigration is the one issue that could put California back in play.

One of the great political myths in California was that Pete Wilson's support of Proposition 187, which would have cut off all state benefits to illegal immigrants, severely damaged the Republican Party in California. Because of that, the myth says, Republicans were branded as racist xenophobes, and California became a reliably Democratic state. That gives Democrats 55 electoral votes right off the bat.

It's a nice story, but it leaves out one fairly important fact. When the proposition was put to the electorate, 63% of them voted for it. Explaining how Pete Wilson destroyed his governorship and the California Republican Party by supporting a measure with which 63% of the voters agreed is an exercise I'll leave to others.

Here's the thing: No matter what Californians say about illegal immigration, when they go into the voting booth, they don't punch the little button that says, "I'm for it".

If illegal immigration becomes a major issue in '08, and the Republicans put forward a candidate who is less compromising on that issue than the Democrat, then I wouldn't count on those 55 electoral votes being "blue" when the tallying is done.
 
TrackBacks
Return to Main Blog Page
 
 

Previous Comments to this Post 

Comments
Two years ago I wrote a letter listing all the reasons I was against illegal immigration and sent it to all the politicans of note at the time. I have resent the same letter a couple of times. I hope we are all making progress.
 
Written By: Rick
URL: http://
"Democratic activist like it because they assume that large number of immigrants from countries with a far more Marxist political-economic outlook will end up voting Democrat when they or their children, obtain the franchise here."

I am still not entirely sold on this theory. African Americans for generations have lived in a country with a free-market oriented outlook, and yet they also support the Democrats and their programs. Meanwhile, many immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are risk-takers who leave their homeland for a new life, work hard etc., which would cut against possible political culture issues. I think it could be a partial factor only.

Maybe its easier just to say that if you are a manual laborer making 30,000 a year "free" healthcare really will be "free" for you and your family - so what’s not to like? Or lack of education in general means they lean left. Or that hispanics currenly vote Dem.

I wonder if we can find the political breakdown from immigrants from HK / Taiwan, where there isn’t much "marxist" oriented political-economic outlook and see how they vote. I’d guess they’d lean Democrat too. The few I know told me they thought Republicans were mean and racist. But they live in SF and could be brainwashed by their lefty friends...same person said we’d been in a recession for three years (despite her having an MBA and being a certified accountant...you’d think she’d know better.)
 
Written By: Harun
URL: http://
Yeah, I just listened to your podcast and the idea that CA is going to turn Republican over illegal immigration is as silly as your other idea that we’re going to have states secede from the union. It’s a very clear example of extrapolating your and your friends views on the world at large. It’s as if I talked only to people in the very liberal town of Takoma Park, MD where I live and based on their positions assumed that Texas will go Democratic. Which it won’t. In a million years. (Not that I wouldn’t love the GOP candidate quixotically flying in to CA for nonexistent votes like Bush did in 2000).

The reason why many hispanic voters vote Democratic isn’t out of any crazy pro-Marxist economic bunkum. They vote that way because out of the two parties, one of ’em isn’t race-baiting on a regular basis. Republicans have been amazingly stupid on hispanic voters, because just like with black voters there is a social conservatism they could tap in to and slice off enough to cut the Dems off at the knees. But the GOP is obsessed with holding on to their existing base, and increasingly in order to do that they must demonstrate hostility to blacks and hispanics (no doubt they would do this with Asians as well if Asians were a larger percentage of the populace). Already the slight gains the GOP made with hispanic voters because of Bush/Rove’s prescience are being wiped away by the Tom Tancredo wing of the party. I would even guess that the only solidly pro-Republican faction of the hispanic vote - Cuban Americans - may experience some shrinkage because of the party’s rhetoric.

Sure, most people - like me - believe in controlling immigration (I’d almost argue that as a first generation American from legal immigrants I’m a little more adamant than most about penalizing people who "jump the line" in the process). But as often happens, the right has taken a common sense thing and pushed it into xenophobia land. All these people who are afraid of brown skinned people taking over the country already vote Republican, and the increasingly politically organized hispanic vote is becoming more Democratic as it grows. Hispanic voters are still not as organized as black voters because black voters have a head start, but give it time (ask the current mayor of L.A. about that after he failed versus a white-black suburban coalition his first go-around in ’01).

Headlines conservatives/Republicans should seriously contemplate before they choose to go down that road: "Immigration becomes KKK rallying point"

The GOP has test-run the anti-immigrant message in ’06 and in a couple of races in MA and VA this year and it hasn’t worked so far. On a national scale where the hispanic vote will matter, it’ll probably just drive up the Democratic vote more (which is okay with me, but I’m just saying).

Are most people going to support common sense enforcement of immigration laws, as well as processes to legalize the illegal? Yes. Are rational people going to support the idea that all of our ills are to be blamed on dark-skinned people who don’t speak English as their first language? No.
 
Written By: Oliver Willis
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
The reason why many hispanic voters vote Democratic isn’t out of any crazy pro-Marxist economic bunkum.
Yeah, the fact that the countries they come from are politically centered far Left of the US political center should be no indicator they may be disposed to lean left when they arrive here.

That’s solid insight there.
 
Written By: jpm100
URL: http://
63%, Oliver.

63%.
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
It’s a very clear example of extrapolating your and your friends views on the world at large. It’s as if I talked only to people in the very liberal town of Takoma Park, MD where I live and based on their positions assumed that Texas will go Democratic. Which it won’t. In a million years. (Not that I wouldn’t love the GOP candidate quixotically flying in to CA for nonexistent votes like Bush did in 2000).
I think you’re being short-sighted here, and I’ll explain why.

1: since Reagan left office, there hasn’t really been an issue to stir California for national elections, defaulting the state to the Democratic Party in all but Gubernatorial races. However, what McQ says strikes as possible because of the statistics he showed. But lets ignore that fact, there is another that’s still at play

2: there’s still the matter of the resolution (which, currently, has majority support) which, if passed, will split California’s electoral vote by county. If you apply 2004 into the mix, that means Bush would have carried 22-24 electoral votes out of California (since he won 44% of the vote there). That would effectively nullify Ohio’s significance as a swing state, and place the Democrats in a severe disadvantage for 2008.
The reason why many hispanic voters vote Democratic isn’t out of any crazy pro-Marxist economic bunkum. They vote that way because out of the two parties, one of ’em isn’t race-baiting on a regular basis. Republicans have been amazingly stupid on hispanic voters, because just like with black voters there is a social conservatism they could tap in to and slice off enough to cut the Dems off at the knees. But the GOP is obsessed with holding on to their existing base, and increasingly in order to do that they must demonstrate hostility to blacks and hispanics
This is absurd.

Bush carried 35% of the hispanic vote in 2000. He went up to 44% in 2004, which is a huge gain. But to claim Republicans are hostile to hispanics and blacks is ridiculous.

You also write off the entire block when you clearly don’t understand the underlying machinations of the hispanic vote. There is, currently, a small majority who are AGAINST illegal immigration (hispanics, mind you)and that number further breaks down depending on nationality, education, income, method of immigration, etc. Hispanics as a group are a non-entity, a misnomer. Cubans and Puerto Ricans are similar yet very different; Central Americans and Mexicans hate each other; Columbians and Venezuelans haven’t gotten along in years and nobody likes the Argentinians. So to pretend that there is this one, unified ’hispanic’ populaion only illustrates the incredible ignorance you and others have with the demographic.

I would even guess that the only solidly pro-Republican faction of the hispanic vote - Cuban Americans - may experience some shrinkage because of the party’s rhetoric.
lol You’re insane.

Do you know what is one of the most Republican cities in the United States, and the most Republican City in Florida? Hialeah, Fl. For those of you who don’t live in South Florida, Hialeah is a suburb in Miami which has a 90%+ Cuban Populace, the vast majority of which can vote. With the exception of their mayor (who is an establishment) they have NEVER voted for a Democrat for President. Ever.

Now, people have been saying for a very long time that Cubans will, eventually, switch votes. I can assure you, so long as Democrats keep kissing Castro’s a@@ and not backing the Embargo, Cubans will NEVER vote for a Democrat. Also, this city has never forgiven Kennedy for Bay of Pigs, and Elian Gonzalez still leaves a bad taste in everyone’s mouth. They’ll never forgive Clinton or Reno for that one.

Again, as a Cuban, I can assure you that the Cuban movement (one of the most organized, if not THE most organized community of hispanics in America) will NOT switch parties.
But as often happens, the right has taken a common sense thing and pushed it into xenophobia land.
and here’s where I call BS.

NO REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE has said ’no immigration’. Nor have they spread xenophobia. That’s a lie. What they HAVE said is that the southern border needs to be barred against illegals to make sure no one cuts in line. Even Tom Tancredo has said that.

Another problem is integration. Do you know my grandparents fled Cuba in the 60’s and moved here with their family, having nothing but the clothes on their backs. They did not allow my parents to speak spanish at home for two reasons: one, so they could learn english themselves and 2. so they can integrate into their new home.

These days, that isn’t the case. Even in Miami it’s become that if you don’t speak spanish, you cannot get anything done. Why? Everyone comes here.

Believing that people must integrate into their adoptive country isn’t xenophobia or racism. Making them take their citizenship test in English isn’t xenophobia or racism. Closing a chaotic and lawless border isn’t xenophobia or racism and I seriously resent you slandering or misrepresenting that position.

 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Oliver pulls out an old Democratic Party ploy: say that those who oppose illegal immigration are opposed to immigration completely. Why debate honestly when you can smear your opponent?
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://
In that case, if illegal immigration becomes a major issue in ’08, then I would not be surprised at all to see the candidate with the toughest stance against it win.

You might read the recent Washington post story about state elections in virginia, Dale. They happened yesterday. Republicans ran explicitly on fire-breathing anti-immigration ads and got creamed.

Oliver pulls out an old Democratic Party ploy: say that those who oppose illegal immigration are opposed to immigration completely.

When your party wants to build a giant wall across the border between the US and neighboring states, you send that message inherently. It’s unavoidable. And, in since cutting off illegal immigration would vastly decrease total immigration to the US, it’s essentially correct. Those who are opposed to illegal immigration may not want to eliminate immigration (although it’s more accurate to say that they’re willing to settle for 90% of the loaf), but they want to eliminate the vast majority of it.

Dale, immigration is a relatively populist issue for Republicans in the sense that a solid 20% of the country is concerned about it and on your side. Hell, as a pro-immigration democrat, I don’t even have a major problem with throwing money at border enforcement. I think it’s useless, wasted money, but that doesn’t bother me. Compared to the trillion dollars of Iraq, it’s cheap.

Hilary Clinton can be expected to throw bones to centrism on that issue. But harrassing immigrants already living in the US - legally, illegally, whatever - is another story. Democrats won’t get behind any of that.

DALE RESPONDS: Virginia is irrelevant. California’s experience with illegal immigration is fundamentally different to almost every other state’s, primarily because 40% of ALL illegal immigrants end up here.

Oh, and Californians have already voted to strip illegals of benefits. Again, what part of 63% is it that you guys don’t get?

 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
When your party wants to build a giant wall across the border between the US and neighboring states, you send that message inherently. It’s unavoidable. And, in since cutting off illegal immigration would vastly decrease total immigration to the US, it’s essentially correct. Those who are opposed to illegal immigration may not want to eliminate immigration (although it’s more accurate to say that they’re willing to settle for 90% of the loaf), but they want to eliminate the vast majority of it.
Baloney, glasnost.

People opposed to illegal immigration are opposed to the law-breaking aspect of it, not immigration. Putting up a wall that closes illegal points of entry but leaves legal points open is NOT an opposition to immigration.

To draw a parallel, if there were a significant percentage of people operating their cars without licenses, would those opposed to unlicensed drivers be opposed to drivers in general? Of course not, but that’s what you are trying to claim with illegal immigration.

 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://
By the way, glasnost, I’m a registered Libertarian, so don’t make stupid assumptions about "my" party.
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://
Dale, you’re right that the California electorate overwhelmingly approved Prop 187 back in ’94 (I lived in California at the time, so I remember it well), and so I do agree with you that it’s a bit of a nonsequitur to say that Wilson’s support of it, which I recall as being quite vocal, damaged the party overall. But I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that it inflicted significant harm to the party’s image among Latinos in California, if not in the nation. I don’t have the polling data handy, but polling analysts who have followed this closely over the years say that in 2004, ten years removed from 187, the GOP was just starting to regain some standing among Hispanics in the state.

OTOH, I think Oliver’s stance that the Republican Party is somehow becoming anti-immigrant is way overdone. Exhibit A: Tancredo himself. In case he hasn’t noticed, Tancredo’s various attempts at presidential campaigns have gone nowhere (and, in fact, he’s stepping down from the House next year, albeit with the excuse that his issue has now gotten legs). If the "Tancredo wing"—assuming such a thing exists—really was getting more momentum, certainly that would have translated into the man himself getting some sort of traction in his presidential bid.

I’d also say Oliver is way off the mark as to Latino political views. I speak and read Spanish fluently, and after years of talking to Hispanics and reading Spanish-language newspapers, I think it’s entirely accurate to say that, while Hispanics do tend to tilt to the right on social issues, they definitely lean left economically. They tend to hold an expectation greater than Anglos that the state is to provide certain assistance and servicios to residents, and there’s little doubt in my mind they would be all over a "progressive" tax system.

But with that stated, I think both Oliver and Dale have illustrated that a sane, rational immigration policy could enjoy tremendous political overlap across the political spectrum, and for a simple reason: because it’s the right thing to do. Regardless of political affiliation, I think most Americans fundamentally understand that no country can abide millions of people who are, in essence, illegal squatters. I just question whether leaders from either party learned enough from last summer’s immigration debacle to really get a substantive piece of legislation passed.
 
Written By: Ryan
URL: http://
all good and well, Ryan, but how can you even begin to address the problem when you have people like Oliver who scream ’Racist!’ whenever you bring up law enforcement?

There’s no solution because debate has become ’I’m against whatever you’re for!’.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
When your party wants to build a giant wall across the border between the US and neighboring states, you send that message inherently. It’s unavoidable. And, in since cutting off illegal immigration would vastly decrease total immigration to the US, it’s essentially correct. Those who are opposed to illegal immigration may not want to eliminate immigration (although it’s more accurate to say that they’re willing to settle for 90% of the loaf), but they want to eliminate the vast majority of it.
What a load of CRAP!

1. Not ’my party’ - I’m a registered libertarian.
2. Closing the border merely sends the message that we are serious about control.
3. "And, in since cutting off illegal immigration would vastly decrease total immigration to the US, it’s essentially correct" - my god, does this actually make sense to you?
4. "Those who are opposed to illegal immigration may not want to eliminate immigration (although it’s more accurate to say that they’re willing to settle for 90% of the loaf), but they want to eliminate the vast majority of it" - here you go again saying the same thing. And saying it stupidly. You usually make better arguments than this glasnost.

Personal note - I am married to a Brazilian. Met her while she was here on a tourist visa. Sent her back to Brazil before it expired. Brought her back on a fresh one and married her before that one expired. That was in ’93. In 2005 she took her citizenship test and passed. She is against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and is totally supportive of LEGAL immigration. As am I.

Suggestion to the Republican candidates. Have a clear position on ILLEGAL immigration backed up with a plan to increase the number of work related visa’s we allow each year while at the same time expediting the process.
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
But what Glasnost and Oliver have done is, again, illustrate the twisting of the argument:

"I know you’re against illegal immigration..but that really means you have a desire to outlaw all brown people!"

it’s absurd.

Oh, and on that note: as a hispanic, i take GREAT offense to ’brown people’. My great grandparents (all of ’em) were from spain. I’m about as white as they come. The Argeninians are, too (for the most part) as are a large population of Columbians and Venezuelans. Some hispanics are indians, others are black. Some, (probably the majority, but not ’most’) are a mix there-of. But please stop calling us all ’brown people’.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
I wont stand for passive aggressive racism (see? I can play that card, too)
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
More glasnost logic:

If you would shoot a burglar in your house, then you are obviously opposed to having company over, because the net effect is that fewer people will come into your house.

If you are opposed to someone kidnapping your infant child, then you are obviously opposed to adoption, because there will be fewer overall adoptions (legal and illegal).

If you are opposed to someone stealing your belongings, then you are obviously opposed to property ownership, because fewer people will own property.


You get the idea. Glasnost, care to admit you’re wrong on this point?
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://
I didn’t say the Cuban vote would go Democratic. I lived in South Florida long enough to know that as long as Cuba is in the hands of Castro or his acolytes, that voting bloc will remain solidly Republican. But what I am saying is the anti-immigrant sentiment in the GOP will push a few of those otherwise ardent Republicans to the Democratic side, or at least non-voting.

The problem here is that yes, some Republicans and conservatives are honestly against illegal immigration for security reasons. But there is yet another version of the southern strategy at play here where the right is yet again acting reflexively racist to a minority group that’s growing.
 
Written By: Oliver Willis
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
The problem here is that yes, some Republicans and conservatives are honestly against illegal immigration for security reasons. But there is yet another version of the southern strategy at play here where the right is yet again acting reflexively racist to a minority group that’s growing.
Then stop lumping them all into the same pile. Debate the issue honestly, if you can. I’ll bet you that if you took a poll, you’d find the overwhelming majority of those opposed to illegal immigration will favor legal immigration. So, you’re just smearing your opponents because of a small minority.
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://
African Americans for generations have lived in a country with a free-market oriented outlook, and yet they also support the Democrats and their programs.
Yes, but American blacks have maintained a distinct subculture that is more socialist than mainstream American culture.
Meanwhile, many immigrants (illegal or otherwise) are risk-takers who leave their homeland for a new life, work hard etc., which would cut against possible political culture issues.
Living here in Southern California, with a wife who has Ecuadorian parents, I have to disagree with you. There is a definite leftist tendency among Latin Americans.

I’m not too sure about the "risk-taker" idea either; they are typically minimizing risk by heading to the US.

Hard workers? I’ll more or less agree, but definite leftists. I know my inlaws well . . .
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
" President Clinton was rather responsive to polling (he said with elegant understatement)."

LOL. Nicely put.


"With that history in mind, it’s surprising that Ms. Clinton doesn’t just come out against it."

Slick Willy’s highest priorities were his election and his erection (not necessarily in that order). His principles, if any, were a distant third. Hillary is actually a true believer. Love her or hate her, you gotta give her her props.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
But there is yet another version of the southern strategy at play here where the right is yet again acting reflexively racist to a minority group that’s growing.
I’m married to an Ecuadrian mestizo (with two children who are a mix of Andean Indian, Spanish, German, Slav, English, Irish, Scottish, and who knows what else). I’m hardly racist; however I also understand that the Ecuadorian culture is inclined towards socialism.

I’m fine with Ecuadorians and other Latin Americans coming to America, but at a rate we can convert to our culture.

The reasons to be concearned with immigration are:

1) Security.

2) Protecting our culture.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
When your party wants to build a giant wall across the border between the US and neighboring states, you send that message inherently. It’s unavoidable. And, in since cutting off illegal immigration would vastly decrease total immigration to the US, it’s essentially correct. Those who are opposed to illegal immigration may not want to eliminate immigration (although it’s more accurate to say that they’re willing to settle for 90% of the loaf), but they want to eliminate the vast majority of it.
I’m mostly concearned with protecting our culture.

But I’d be quite happy to trade you for the Cuban dude who almost made it to Florida in the Chevy truck. That sorta trade would be a net gain for American culture.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
But what I am saying is the anti-immigrant sentiment in the GOP will push a few of those otherwise ardent Republicans to the Democratic side, or at least non-voting.
and you would be wrong. Cubans, a vast majority of them, are against illegal immigration.
The problem here is that yes, some Republicans and conservatives are honestly against illegal immigration for security reasons. But there is yet another version of the southern strategy at play here where the right is yet again acting reflexively racist to a minority group that’s growing.
Bull!

Your premise is one of ’Republicans are Racist’. You already have a preconceived notion of Republicans, which is what makes your argument asinine. In your mind Republican=Racist, which is why you catogorize it as ’reflexive’ REGARDLESS of their background, actual position or ethnicity. I’m obviously an Uncle Tom if I’m a Black Republican. I’m obviously a Racist if I’m a Republican.

The only racist here, sir, is you who a. make blanket statements about hispanics without knowing a thing about us culturally and b. call us ’brown people’.

But I’d be quite happy to trade you for the Cuban dude who almost made it to Florida in the Chevy truck. That sorta trade would be a net gain for American culture.
you know he did it again, right? The second time he turned an old Buick into a raft. That, too, is now an artificial reef in Key Biscayne.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Joel C wrote:
Cubans, a vast majority of them, are against illegal immigration.
That may be true, but it probably helps that all Cuban immigration to the USA is effectively legal. If Cubans didn’t have a special status compared to other immigrant groups, they might feel differently about this.

I wonder if the Venezuelan groups in the US will agitate for similar treatment, considering their similar situation.
 
Written By: James O
URL: http://
you know he did it again, right? The second time he turned an old Buick into a raft. That, too, is now an artificial reef in Key Biscayne.


It was the same guy?
That may be true, but it probably helps that all Cuban immigration to the USA is effectively legal.
Once they reach shore.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Don wrote:
Once they reach shore.
Contrast this to the Mexican immigrant, who upon successfully crossing the Rio Grande and putting both feet on US soil, is illegal.
 
Written By: James O
URL: http://
Contrast this to the Mexican immigrant, who upon successfully crossing the Rio Grande and putting both feet on US soil, is illegal.
Yes, and if that wasn’t the case the only people in Mexico would be visiting gringos.

I have plenty of Mexicans crossing my ranch. They don’t have to cross any water whatsoever to do so. I’ve had 40+ on my ranch at one time back in the ’90s.

Once they make it to LA, their legal status is largely moot.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
If Cubans didn’t have a special status compared to other immigrant groups, they might feel differently about this.

I wonder if the Venezuelan groups in the US will agitate for similar treatment, considering their similar situation.
1. Big difference: Cubans leave the island for political freedom, not because we keep electing the same corrupt schmucks who make us poorer and poorer. Things may not have been peachy keen with Batista, but Cuba was prosperous and rich at the time.

2. If Venezuela fully goes communist, I hope it does happen the same. It would be for the right reasons. Again, before Chavez, you didn’t see a massive wave of Venezuelans coming over, did you?

But again, the difference between the two is massive. It’s policy of the US to give political asylum to anyone from a country who the government recognizes as being violators of Human Rights.

Cuba is on such a list. Mexico is not.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Once they reach shore.
What happened with Elian then? And why is that not brought up and tossed in Hillary’s face?
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
What happened with Elian then? And why is that not brought up and tossed in Hillary’s face?
Because, as a community, we just don’t want to go there again.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Again, what part of 63% is it that you guys don’t get?
I don’t get how 63% of the electorate voting on one particular proposition could translate to a majority of the electorate in California casting their vote for an anti-illegal immigrant presidential candidate trumping all other issues combined.

I lived in California for a number of years and I don’t doubt that if asked, most Californians would support tougher restrictions regarding illegal immigration. I do doubt, however, that they would put their aforementioned concerns above all other issues.

A republican presidential candidate, even one expressing tough illegal immigration policy, to win California has a snowball’s chance in Malibu.

Cheers.
 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
I think it’s funny the protests about their not being racism on the right, and then this is written:
The reasons to be concearned with immigration are:

1) Security.

2) Protecting our culture.
Come on. It’s hard to keep a straight face when you guys make arguments like that. "We don’t hate Mexicans, they’re just infecting our culture."
 
Written By: Oliver Willis
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
It’s not that ’they’re infecting our culture’ you dolt. It’s the question of Integration or lack there of.

The ONLY minority that has not integrated into American Culture is, by and large, the Hispanic. And that’s a major problem.

Are you now going to insinuate that I’m a racist against hispanics, Mr. ’I call hispanics Brown People’?
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
I think it’s funny the protests about their not being racism on the right, and then this is written:
Race and culture aren’t the same things, Oliver. You know that, but you are deliberately conflating them. Unable to debate honestly, eh?
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://
Of course not. His answer to everything is ’you’re a racist.’
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
And it is hard to keep a straight face when Oliver rants about how anybody against illegal immigration is a racist!
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
Funny thing, Oliver. The only one in this thread referring to immigrants as "brown people" is you. Who’s the racist here?
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
I’m against illegal immigration as well, but not on the grounds that somehow hispanics bring something evil to our culture, even though the same folks freaking out about it have never had a problem with integrating European customs into our melting pot. The difference? One group is more or less white while the other is largely brown skinned.
 
Written By: Oliver Willis
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
Again, BS.

The Europeans that came into our ’melting pot’ melted. The ’brown people’, as you so eloquently call them (and you seem to consider me apart of, even though I’m not brown) do NOT ’melt’.

Part of a melting pot is you need everyone to melt into the overall stew. They’re not doing that. So yes, there is a cultural issue that needs to be addressed.

And no, they don’t bring ’evil’ into our culture, and i challenge you to point out where anyone said that. If you can’t, then retract your inflammatory accusation or shut up and leave.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Joel C wrote:
And no, they don’t bring ’evil’ into our culture, and i challenge you to point out where anyone said that.
Obviously you do think they’re bringing something undesirable (even if it isn’t unique to that particular immigrant group); otherwise it wouldn’t matter if they assimilated or not.

I think people underestimate the ability of the American system to make new Americans. From what I remember reading, second- and third- generation Hispanic-origin immigrants are far more assimilated than their forebears. With the passage of time, I think this whole "assimilation crisis" will just disappear.
 
Written By: James O
URL: http://
yet it doesn’t. My grandparents came in the 60’s and assimilated. My parents did, too (they were born over in Cuba). I consider myself 100% American born and bred.

But look around Miami and you will NOT see ’assimilation’. I have seen and still see 4th Generation students who ’speak’ english terribly. They don’t so much speak the language as they do chew it up and spit it out. They sound like immigrants who have just arrived and are learning the language, it’s that bad.

Mexicans have been in California since we took it from Spain. Puerto Ricans have been in New York for ever. Go to Spanish Harlem or the Barrios of East LA and tell me they’ve assimilated. Head down to Miami, I’ll give you a tour of the city, even take you to lunch. Go ahead and try to order food. Then look me in the eye and tell me ’yup, 3rd generation assimilation at work!"
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
With the passage of time, I think this whole "assimilation crisis" will just disappear.
Not at the rates that are currently coming through. Why assimilate when you can get everything you need in your own native language?
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
I’m against illegal immigration as well, but not on the grounds that somehow hispanics bring something evil to our culture, even though the same folks freaking out about it have never had a problem with integrating European customs into our melting pot. The difference? One group is more or less white while the other is largely brown skinned.
First, I don’t agree with the "melting pot" concept, the correct concept is assimilation. Europeans need to be assimilated as well, with some needing little assimilation (i.e., Britians) and others needing more (Russians, for example).

Second, as I already stated, my wife is mestizo, so I don’t have issues with "brown" people.

That said, hispanic culture is significantly different, and it results in the sorta (lack of) success you see in Mexico and Argentina (and worse, since those are two of the better Latin American countries).

The bottom line is that the issue is 100% culture.

 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
I wouldn’t say that, Don.

More security than Culture. It’s a law and order issue. The assimilation problem is another argument and separate from illegal immigration.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
From http://www.cato.org/view_ddispatch.php?viewdate=20070809
The number of foreign-born people who settle here each year, legally and illegally, is about 1 to 1.2 million. In the context of a U.S. population that has reached 292 million, the current immigration rate is about 4 immigrants per 1,000 U.S. residents per year. That is less than half of the peak annual immigration rate of more than 10 per 1,000 in the entire decade of 1901 to 1910, during what is known as the Great Migration. In fact, the immigration rate into the United States was higher than it is today continually for nearly a century, from 1840 to 1920.
I’m of the mind that the number of immigrants is not the problem. It didn’t kill us back then, I doubt it’ll do us in now. Hell, we’ve got a major immigrant group trying to dictate parts of our foreign policy (the Cubans) and that hasn’t destroyed the idea of "America" yet, so I personally am not worried about a Mexifornia or whatever.
 
Written By: James O
URL: http://
With the passage of time, I think this whole "assimilation crisis" will just disappear.
That depends upon the rate of immigration, and other factors.

Europe has more problems with immigration in part due to their welfare states, which allows people to exist in comfort without assimilation. Europe now has a problem with 3rd and 4th gen Muslim immigrants who have not assimilated.

The Europeans who emigrated to the US from Eastern and Southern Europe assimilated in large part because immigration to the US was shut to a trickle from the ’20s to the ’60s. That, combined with the fact that they could become Americans and the lack of a welfare state, resulted in assimilation.



 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
That is less than half of the peak annual immigration rate of more than 10 per 1,000 in the entire decade of 1901 to 1910, during what is known as the Great Migration. In fact, the immigration rate into the United States was higher than it is today continually for nearly a century, from 1840 to 1920.
Yes, but in the ’20s it was shut off, allowing assimilation to catch up. And, we didn’t have a welfare state back then, so we can not deal as robustly with immigration.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Hell, we’ve got a major immigrant group trying to dictate parts of our foreign policy (the Cubans) and that hasn’t destroyed the idea of "America" yet, so I personally am not worried about a Mexifornia or whatever.
...because the ’major foreign policy’ you’re speaking about was instituted by Kennedy long before there was a major Cuban flood! In fact, there were good relations with Cuban Exiles and the Kennedy Administration up until Bay of Pigs. Cubans to this day support the Embargo. They’re not ’dictating’ policy.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
More security than Culture. It’s a law and order issue. The assimilation problem is another argument and separate from illegal immigration.
When I said "100% culture" my point was that race wasn’t the issue. Perhaps I didn’t explain myself clearly, but I was responding to Willis.

Assimilation and security are both part of the illegal immigration issue. Illegals are probably less likely to assimilate, since they don’t have to show proof of a job, and hence likely will make more use of welfare services. And the jobs they get are less likely to push towards assimilation.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
I’m against illegal immigration as well, but not on the grounds that somehow hispanics bring something evil to our culture, even though the same folks freaking out about it have never had a problem with integrating European customs into our melting pot. The difference? One group is more or less white while the other is largely brown skinned.
You really are intellectually dishonest, Oliver.

First, no one here has said that Hispanics bring something evil to our culture.

Second, you deliberately ignore that Europeans actually became part of our melting pot — learning English, becoming part of the culture — while many Hispanic immigrants refuse to.

It has nothing to do with skin color, Oliver, and you know this. It has everything to do with willingness to become part of the American culture.
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://
Hell, we’ve got a major immigrant group trying to dictate parts of our foreign policy (the Cubans) and that hasn’t destroyed the idea of "America" yet, so I personally am not worried about a Mexifornia or whatever.
The Cubans are hardly the only major immigrant group that tries to dictate forign policy.

The Cubans are not much of a worry because we currently don’t have heavy immigration from Cuba, and the Cubans we have are not prone to socialism. Many coming from other latin American countries are prone to socialism (which is, of course, why Willis is fine with them).
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Joel C wrote:
They’re not ’dictating’ policy.
Perhaps I could have phrased that better. I don’t mean to say they implemented new policies; rather, they help perpetuate policies regarding Cuba that the general public disagrees with - specifically, establishing diplomatic relations with Cuba (62% favorable, source: http://www.pollingreport.com/cuba.htm ). Naturally, part of this will be insitutional/ideological inertia in the government, but Cuban-American lobbyist groups are obviously going to lobby against that. Does that constitute assimilation (after all, if they’re ’really’ assimilated into American culture, shouldn’t they be less biased here?) Naturally the same charge could be leveled at AIPAC et al. My point being, tribal/cultural ties with these groups are still more important to them than it is to other Americans, so have they really "assimilated?"

Don wrote:
...and hence likely will make more use of welfare services.
From http://www.cato-unbound.org/2006/08/20/douglas-s-massey/seeing-mexican-immigration-clearly/
Mexican immigrants do not migrate to take advantage of U.S. social services. Their service usage rates are well below those of other immigrant groups and have fallen sharply since the mid-1990s. Undocumented migrants, in particular, are more likely to pay taxes than to use public services, and even those they do use—mainly education and medical care—are consumed at rates well below what one would expect given their socioeconomic characteristics.
Illegal consumption of state services IS a valid concern, yes; but one that seems to be somewhat exaggerated.
 
Written By: James O
URL: http://
Second, you deliberately ignore that Europeans actually became part of our melting pot — learning English, becoming part of the culture — while many Hispanic immigrants refuse to.
Well, the Europeans didn’t have much choice. We had zilch welfare state back then, and in the ’20s the flow was cut back.

Italians, for example, brought some good things (like our wine industry) and some bad (organized crime). In the end, they basically became Anglo Saxons for all intents and purposes.

Most Latin Americans want their children to learn English. There is a small radical subset (mostly within universities) which oppose this, but the issue isn’t so much the individual Latinos so much as the collective. With the current flow, many will not have to assimilate, and they will retain the values that support the welfare state and socialism.

I’ve delt with probably hundreds of illegals, and most are fine, hardworking people. But most also have a set of values that would not support a functioning free market capitalist system.

Willis doesn’t care, he’d probably vote for Hugo Chavez over Bush anyway.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Don wrote:
And, we didn’t have a welfare state back then, so we can not deal as robustly with immigration.
Well OK, how about we roll back the welfare state and then we can have a looser immigration policy? OK, granted the left would never agree to such a thing, but it’s a nice thought. ;)
 
Written By: James O
URL: http://
If the anti-"illegal-immigration" surge is all about lawbreaking, how come we haven’t seen a similar massive outpouring of demand for a crackdown on speed limit violations?

OUR CULTURE OF LEGALITY IS BEING ERODED!

Right.

Suggestion to the Republican candidates. Have a clear position on ILLEGAL immigration backed up with a plan to increase the number of work related visa’s we allow each year while at the same time expediting the process.

Yeah, that’s a nice suggestion, but it’s not one supported by the Republican Party. The net effect of the wall will be to cut total immigration to the US sharply. Go find me a Republican campaign platform of increasing legal immigration to the U.S. Go ask Republican party surveys if they support increasing legal immigration. Surprise me.

Tom Tancredo definitely supports slashing legal immigration along with illegal, and I haven’t seen much of a backlash.

Meanwhile, some people took this personally:

When your party wants to build a giant wall across the border between the US and neighboring states, you send that message inherently. It’s unavoidable.

This has nothing to do with what you or your movement thinks is the point of your opposition or your movement. At the amgydala level, wall = we don’t like immigrants. Whether that’s the message sent or not, that is the message received. Ask an immigrant or a Republican pollster.



 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
What I’m fine with is legal immigrants coming to America and adding their culture to ours. I don’t have issues with keeping our culture pure because it was never pure to begin with. It’s because our culture isn’t homogeneous that we have strength.
 
Written By: Oliver Willis
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
Mexican immigrants do not migrate to take advantage of U.S. social services
Another problem of their lack of assimilation. They are sending huge amounts of money back to Mexico (and other Latin countries - I’d like to see how much goes back to Brazil - I bet it is HUGE). They don’t climb the ladder here because of where they send the money, and secondarily, they create/cover up economic problems in their home countries.
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
meagain wrote:
They are sending huge amounts of money back to Mexico...
I’d ask, how is this unique to illegal immigration? Legal immigrants will surely remit parts of their paychecks too.
 
Written By: James O
URL: http://
Illegal consumption of state services IS a valid concern, yes; but one that seems to be somewhat exaggerated.


James,

I’m not quite sure about the rosy picture from that Cato piece, here is something from heritage:
Histori­cally, Hispanics in America have had very high levels of welfare use. Chart 2 shows receipt of aid from major welfare programs by different ethnic groups in 1999; the programs covered are Medicaid, Food Stamps, public housing, Temporary Assistance to Needy Families, General Assistance, and Supple­mental Security Income.[20] As the chart shows, His­panics were almost three times more likely to receive welfare than non-Hispanic whites. In addition, among families that received aid, the cost of the aid received was 40 percent higher for Hispanics than for non-Hispanic whites.[21] Putting together the greater probability of receiving welfare with the greater cost of welfare per family means that, on average, Hispanic families received four times more welfare per family than white non-Hispanics.


My family has lived on the Mexican border since the 1870s, and I grew up on the border. My grandfather and father spoke fluent Spanish, and my wife and in-laws are hispanic.

The Cato piece you linked appears to be a white wash of the subject to me.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
"It’s not that ’they’re infecting our culture’ you dolt. It’s the question of Integration or lack there of."

You are of course laboring under the unfortunate delusion that our racist, greed-driven, homophobic, sexist, aggressive, etc. culture is worth saving. Open your mind to the Truth.

"Race and culture aren’t the same things, Oliver."

But of course they are. That is why criticizing rappers for using certain words is racist.

"One group is more or less white while the other is largely brown skinned."

LOL. That’s progress, I guess.


"integrating European customs into our melting pot. The difference?"

Yeah, I was just watching the German channel last night, and tonight the French channel has a nifty special about all those signs in Russian and English. You know, like the ones that say ’Caution, Wet Floor’.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
It’s because our culture isn’t homogeneous that we have strength.
American success is directly related to our Anglo-Saxon culture. Our success has followed a path similar to that of England, for that reason (a trade based free market culture with resulting liberty and democracy).

It is true that the "menu items" of culture—food, drink, music, etc., benifit from mixing, but core values do not.



 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
"Illegal consumption of state services IS a valid concern, yes; but one that seems to be somewhat exaggerated."

That depends on where you live.



" It’s because our culture isn’t homogeneous that we have strength."

An exaggeration, at best.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
It’s because our culture isn’t homogeneous that we have strength.
American success is directly related to our Anglo-Saxon culture. Our success has followed a path similar to that of England, for that reason (a trade based free market culture with resulting liberty and democracy).

It is true that the "menu items" of culture—food, drink, music, etc., benifit from mixing, but core values do not.



 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
"It is true that the "menu items" of culture—food, drink, music, etc., benifit from mixing,"

Some do, some don’t. Don’t mix wine and beer. Don’t put bechamel sauce on your taco. Don’t try to dance the Bavarian Slap Dance to a rap ’song’. Don’t hire Don Rickles to do a show in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, or Sicily.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Let us stop pretending and address what some of you are really upset about…
Press *one* for English-
-Para español oprima numero *dos*
Come on… Admit it.
You’re pissed off ‘cause when you come home from Wal-Mart with that new piece of furniture that is labeled a “buffet” table yet you KNOW there will never be a buffet on that table but your wife forced you to buy anyway because, “wouldn’t it go so well standing next to our ‘bakers rack’?” and of course you cannot answer because your having trouble remembering what the hell is a “bakers rack” but would anyway no doubt be used as a platform displaying your idiot brother-in-law’s wedding photos and you get it home only to find out it comes unassembled in a thousand pieces with missing screws and washers accompanied with strange tools that are only meant for assembling this particular piece of furniture yet you are required to keep them cluttering up your already disorganized tool box for fear of one day having to dismantle the wretched thing… then discovering the instruction booklet that has thirty pages written in every language under the sun but you only need the one page – and I do mean one page – written in English but when you finally find it... your holding it upside down - which causes you to reach your breaking point and scream,

GODDAMIT-F*CKING-SH*T

And your face is turning red while your shoulders tighten as you look around in frustration to see your dog sitting there looking at you like you’re an idiot, and you think to yourself… I’m gunna beat that damned dog because it’s the only thing around here that I can beat and get away with.

Come on, now. Admit it. That’s what you’re really pissed off about…

Because this seems a contradiction,
I’ve delt with probably hundreds of illegals, and most are fine, hardworking people. But most also have a set of values that would not support a functioning free market capitalist system.
Fine, hardworking people not supporting a functioning free market capitalist system!?!

It always seems strange to me when people argue that hardworking, deeply religious, family oriented folks are not assimilating to American values.

Keep in mind, it’s a lot different than the European/Muslim/multi-culturism issue. The immigration that we are experiencing is from a group of people who are not hostile to American values.

Cheers.
 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
You racists, including those of you who aren’t ’white folks’ yourselves or went out and proved your racist, xenophobic tendencies by marrying ’other than white folks’ or ’other than Americans’ are wasting your time on this.

You’re racists & you don’t like immigrants and funny sounding furiners (and I don’t care if that means you don’t like your parents and spouses) if you want to stop the influx of illegal aliens undocumented workers into the United States.

This isn’t your d@mn country in the first place, it belongs to all these other oppressed, unemployed, undocumented, possibly brown skinned, people.
So quitcherwhining.

This whole national sovereignty, borders thing is so ’Cold War’, so passe.


 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Fine, hardworking people not supporting a functioning free market capitalist system!?!
Right.

Lots of fine, hardworking people supported the Bolsheviks in Russia, no doubt.

Good, hardworking people can be wrong with respect to property rights, personal liberty, the scope of government authority, and so on. These critical but subtle values are often the last thing immigrants aquire through assimilation, if the immigrants I’ve known are typical.

 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
"It always seems strange to me when people argue that hardworking, deeply religious, family oriented folks are not assimilating to American values."

And a happy Allah akbar to you.

Speaking of assimilation, has anyone heard the joke about the Rabbi, the Priest, and the Imam that walk into a bar....?


Why is it that the only folks who are disparaged and discouraged for wishing to preserve their traditional culture are white, Christian, European-Americans? It is becoming ’the culture that dare not speak its name’. In the case of African-Americans, they are even encouraged to ’preserve’ a culture that never was.

Gee, I hope I am not being too controversial.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Why is it that the only folks who are disparaged and discouraged for wishing to preserve their traditional culture . . .
One of the factors of our culture is how it has changed (more due to technology than mixing), and I’m not sure that I’d particularly concearned with preserving it for tradition.

I’m more concearned with preserving it for the practical matter of continuing our success as a nation.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
timactual: What size would you like your Klan robes in, sir?

(Do the rest of you who are more rational minded see what I’m talking about now? Arguments from the right based on honest security policy keep devolving into racist diatribes about how white culture is under assault from differently colored people.)
 
Written By: Oliver Willis
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
Why is it that the only folks who are disparaged and discouraged for wishing to preserve their traditional culture are white, Christian, European-Americans? It is becoming ’the culture that dare not speak its name’.
You would certainly have my sympathies, tim, if white, Christian, European-American culture was under any real threat.

That culture is not only as strong as it ever was, it’s spreading world wide.
 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
timactual: What size would you like your Klan robes in, sir?
He posed a question Oliver, sir... - fraid to answer, or is it simpler to claim he’s a bigot/racist/xenophobe (Republican of course...) for asking it?

And while you’re at it, answer one for me.
What national legal document or internationally recognized legal document, or treaty with other countries, is it that gives people who aren’t in this country legally rights to anything, let alone rights to be here.
Must be one somewhere, right?

If you can’t find one, might I suggest you stop calling people you have not a clue about racists in support of your whiney one-world agenda.
Why is it that the only folks who are disparaged and discouraged for wishing to preserve their traditional culture are white, Christian, European-Americans? It is becoming ’the culture that dare not speak its name’.
You would certainly have my sympathies, tim, if white, Christian, European-American culture was under any real threat.

That culture is not only as strong as it ever was, it’s spreading world wide.
Pogue, so, your opinion of the situation counts more than his?

and since you’re not worried about this ’undocumented worker’ stuff, you can help Oliver ansewr my question. You’re pretty glib, I’m sure the two of you can come up with a resonable answer.

 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
My suggestion to the GOP on immigration is to be tough on illegal immigration, especially using the "line jumper" concept, but be very explicit in supporting legal immigration and include a plank to reform the current mess at the INS.

The Conservatives in the UK tried an anti-immigration campaign and they lost because the ended up looking a bit ogrish. That needs to be avoided.

And yes, among the anti-illegal immigration crowd there are anti-any immigration supporters, and some racists to boot.

I do have sympathy for the cultural argument...it was very strange to have the taxi driver speak only Spanish in LA last time I visited. Then again, Mexican food is so awesome, I can totally live with that!
 
Written By: Harun
URL: http://
Because it was an idiotic question. As my grandfather always advises: treat things with the contempt that they deserve.
 
Written By: Oliver Willis
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
Pogue, so, your opinion of the situation counts more than his?
Well… yeah. ;)
But that’s neither here nor there. I just disagree with the notion that white, Christian, Euro-American culture is in need of defending since it’s not under any real threat. No one is trying to change our culture. It is what it is.
and since you’re not worried about this ’undocumented worker’ stuff, you can help Oliver ansewr my question. You’re pretty glib, I’m sure the two of you can come up with a resonable answer.
Well, thanks!! Glib…., yeah I can live with that.
But Oliver is on his own. He probably prefers it that way, anyhow.

Cheers.
 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
"timactual: What size would you like your Klan robes in, sir?"

Is it the word ’white’ that provokes such a knee-jerk response? If I omitted that word would you say the same? Do you ask the same of those who claim to wish to preserve black culture, hispanic culture, Polish culture, etc.? Or is it that you do not think there is such a thing as an American culture? You must really despise the Chinese and Japanese.

How about "Say it loud, I’m white and I’m proud".
Is that a racist statement?
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Face it, tim - Oliver will always have the moral high ground due to the melanin content of his skin. Just as you will always be a racist for having the temerity to be born white, you cracker-@ss honky.

 
Written By: Jeff
URL: http://repatriate.blogspot.com
"but be very explicit in supporting legal immigration"

Unfortunately that doesn’t seem to work, witness some of the remarks here. No matter how many times folks here have said they support LEGAL immigration, any suggestion that ILLEGAL immigration should be eliminated is automatically greeted with accusations of racism. The power of the conventional wisdom.

"they lost because the ended up looking a bit ogrish. That needs to be avoided"

Unfortunately, any attempt to place limits on people will be portrayed as ogreish.


" No one is trying to change our culture"

That is just absurd. People have been trying, with varying degrees of success, to change our culture for as long as I can remember. Some of it is intentional, some not. Some changes have been good, some bad, some neither. You must be very young if the present culture is the same as the one you grew up in. This isn’t the Tokugawa Shogunate.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
"Face it, tim - Oliver will always have the moral high ground due to the melanin content of his skin."

Oliver has melanin? How can you tell? They allow the hyper-melanated to post here? I feel so, so, so violated.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Guess what? I hate Kwanzaa too. :) (and I love people making up a racial position for me when it couldn’t be farther from the truth, but that’s neither here nor there since you keep proving my point for me about your real immigration concerns) I think anyone going around talking about keeping their cultural identity pure in America is going to be sorely disappointed. This country is a mutt, always has been, always will be. The purists always - always - lose because at its core this country knows that that brand of "purity" is best left to the truly crazy. You think Chinese culture and Japanese culture should be the models for American culture - have you noticed something about the ethnic makeup of those nations versus ours? I like our way better. It works.
 
Written By: Oliver Willis
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
"and I love people making up a racial position for me"

Yeah, me too, but it seems to come with the territory.

"You think Chinese culture and Japanese culture should be the models for American culture"

Who said that? I don’t care much for either one, myself.


"you keep proving my point for me about your real immigration concerns)"

Not really. If my concerns were what you sem to think they are, you would be able to provide a quote. I am not exactly shy about expressing my opinions. But, the stereotype says that caucasians who don’t like illegal immigration are racist, so who needs actual proof? And of course anyone who opposes illegal immigration is caucasian. I love sterotypes. They save a lot of mental effort.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Fine, hardworking people not supporting a functioning free market capitalist system!?!
That’s right. You, apparantly, have never lived among hispanics. I am hispanic, and what they report is accurate. When you look at countries like Mexico, Bolivia, Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay and Parguay, Costa Rica...you’ll notice something they have in common: they’re all, largely, socialists. They firmly believe that the wealth of the land should be taken up (by the state) and redistributed equally and evenly across the board. The poorer the populace, the more socialist they become. That’s why Mexico was a few votes away from having a socialist take over the Presidency. That’s why Venezuela has a communist soon-to-be dictator on their hands. That’s why Argentina, Boliva, Brazil, Ecuador and Guatemala, El Salvador and Nicaragua have largely socialist governments.

oh, and by the way. I speak very fluent spanish...and when I hear ’oprima numero ’dos’ para español’ it pisses me the hell off. If I wanted to have everything done in spanish, I’d move to a spanish speaking country.


Oh, and Oliver: you’re an idiot who doesn’t understand even the basics of hispanic culture, so don’t presume to lecture us on a topic you know nothing about. You, sir, are a racist.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
That’s right. You, apparantly, have never lived among hispanics.
Well I live and work among mostly Hispanics here in SE Texas, and amongst all of the rancheras música y tortas pollo, I’ve never noticed anyone looking for a handout or wanting to come and take my things and redistribute them. Oh, and come to think of it, I can’t ever recall noticing a Hispanic panhandler.
When you look at countries like Mexico, Bolivia, Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay and Parguay, Costa Rica...you’ll notice something they have in common: they’re all, largely, socialists.
So.
When you look at countries like Poland, Greece, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, etc… are all largely socialistic. Yet, somehow, there are many immigrants to the US from these countries that aren’t socialist. How does that happen???

Have you ever thought that the people coming here from the countries you listed may be coming here to get away from a corrupt, ineffective system and they just want to earn a days pay for a days work?

That’s the impression that I get from the Hispanics that I live around and work with. Your experience with Hispanics must differ than mine.
oh, and by the way. I speak very fluent spanish...and when I hear ’oprima numero ’dos’ para español’ it pisses me the hell off. If I wanted to have everything done in spanish, I’d move to a spanish speaking country.
See… I told you that’s what some of you are really pissed about.

Cheers.

 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
Well I live and work among mostly Hispanics here in SE Texas, and amongst all of the rancheras música y tortas pollo, I’ve never noticed anyone looking for a handout or wanting to come and take my things and redistribute them. Oh, and come to think of it, I can’t ever recall noticing a Hispanic panhandler.
Well, I AM a hispanic, and can tell you from first hand accounts visiting, for example, Mexico and watching Spanish Television the state of affairs in Latin America.

So.
When you look at countries like Poland, Greece, Germany, Sweden, Netherlands, etc… are all largely socialistic. Yet, somehow, there are many immigrants to the US from these countries that aren’t socialist. How does that happen???

Have you ever thought that the people coming here from the countries you listed may be coming here to get away from a corrupt, ineffective system and they just want to earn a days pay for a days work?

That’s the impression that I get from the Hispanics that I live around and work with. Your experience with Hispanics must differ than mine.
In a few cases (Cuba and Venezuela, Nicaragua during the 80’s) that is the case. The rest of them come for economic reasons (Columbians for another reason altogether). But while they decry their failed system at home, they come here and try to recreate it here.
See… I told you that’s what some of you are really pissed about.
That’s right. Considering everyone in my family is Cuban and I still have relatives who barely speak English, I doubt highly its because I’m racist.

I don’t go to France and demand that everyone speak to me in English. I’m not going to emigrate to Greece and become offended when they don’t provide me with an English menu, or automatically assume the person behind the desk is going to speak English.

That is exactly contrary to what illegals and modern day hispanic immigrants do here. So yes, when I see how hard my grandparents worked to do things the right way and then see these arrogant illegals come in and EXPECT things to go exactly as they want, then become indignant when it doesn’t, it angers me.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Because it was an idiotic question. As my grandfather always advises: treat things with the contempt that they deserve.
Sir, you are a coward. Play the race card all you like, as a ’national’ figure it just makes you a nationally known know-nothing clown like so many other national know-nothing clowns, as opposed to a local garden variety know-nothing clown.


Pogue - whole last post - we’re on the same page (except for the having to learn spanish thingie at the end there).
I can see the illegals working hard, I know they do, I see them working holidays like Christmas when the rest of us are zipping off to Kroger to get the cranberry dressing that we forgot. They’re sending the cash home just like the Irish and Italians and everyone else did during their influxes. No problem. We’ve been here, we’ve done this.

The point isn’t that ’hispanics’ don’t work, the point is they aren’t here legally, and the point applies to anyone else working here who isn’t here legally.

The point is I work with, mostly, ’furiners’ who have gone through the mill, and continue to go through the mill - like having to leave the US in, say, El Paso, go to Matamoras to the US friggin embassy there to get their paperwork stamped in a process that is totally beyond me and I think is freakin stupid, but they do it.

Despite what the mighty Ollie Willis thinks I’m fine by immigration, I’m 3 out of 4 ’furiners’ for grandparents. Most of the opposition to open borders here seems to either be those from, or have someone FROM, outside the border in their current mix.
I expect the influx of hispanics will assimilate, just like the little towns back in my GP’s days where only German was spoken or written, where the signs were in Italian, etc, have all slowly blended back into ’the US’.

But in order to blend in there has to be a time when the influx doesn’t lend itself to trying to continue to bend the adopted land to the ways of the land they left.

The sole reason people like whiney Ollie have to hurl the word racist around is because they don’t have an answer to the word "Illegal" in the phrase illegal immigration so they have to resort to name calling and misdirection.


 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Joel,
Well, I AM a hispanic, and can tell you from first hand accounts visiting, for example, Mexico and watching Spanish Television the state of affairs in Latin America.
Like I said, your experience differs from mine. All I can tell you is my impression that I get from working and living among a very large Hispanic population here in SE Texas. Again, I DO NOT get the impression that the immigrants I deal with on daily basis want to turn our political and economic system on its head and recreate socialism. I do not see them on the streets looking for handouts, I see them on the streets looking for work. To me, that speaks volumes to their character and to their desire to be productive, contributing members of society and not seeking a welfare state.
I admit, given my Spanish is mediocre at best, not watching Spanish speaking television or joining in on discussions about politics.
See… I told you that’s what some of you are really pissed about.
That’s right. Considering everyone in my family is Cuban and I still have relatives who barely speak English, I doubt highly its because I’m racist.
I’m not calling you or anyone here a racist. Nor am I suggesting that folks who are annoyed by what they perceive as an increasingly bilingual society are necessarily racist.

I don’t go to France and demand that everyone speak to me in English. I’m not going to emigrate to Greece and become offended when they don’t provide me with an English menu, or automatically assume the person behind the desk is going to speak English.

That is exactly contrary to what illegals and modern day hispanic immigrants do here. So yes, when I see how hard my grandparents worked to do things the right way and then see these arrogant illegals come in and EXPECT things to go exactly as they want, then become indignant when it doesn’t, it angers me.
I agree that if persons seeking to live and work in America and if they want to participate in voting, public education, and the like, should learn English. I don’t believe that tax dollars should be allocated for non-English speaking participants.
However, I withhold my grief for people who are annoyed at “press one for English” or any other consumer driven demand for non-English alternatives. These are merely the consequences of businesses wishing to trade with non-English speaking consumers. Everyone speaks green, and that exchange is always a positive one.

If an individual, or a community as a whole, does not possess the desire to speak English, then that’s their problem. The folks who do bother themselves to learn English will only better themselves, the folks who do not, well, they can continue to clean hotel rooms, wash dishes, and cut our grass. I don’t have any problem with that.
And neither should anyone. It’s a free country, and don’t have to learn English if they don’t want to.

Besides, I know born and bred American white folk who can barely speak it.
I remember once having to translate a discussion that was taking place between a redneck tow-truck driver and a Chinese motorist in a Home Depot parking lot… Everyone was “speaking” English, but there accents were so thick, and their syntax was both off by a mile, I was the only one who could understand everyone.

Yeah, it was weird.

Looker:
I understand where you’re coming from and I can’t disagree with much. My concern with the borders is a security one, not cultural.

Cheers.


 
Written By: PogueMahone
URL: http://
Ok, Pogue, Fair enough
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
"But while they decry their failed system at home, they come here and try to recreate it here"

In New Hampshire they have the same problem with immigrants from Massachusetts.


"I doubt highly its because I’m racist."

That’s okay, I am evidently racist enough for both of us.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Joel, I wish I could disagree.
 
Written By: Ryan
URL: http://
If the anti-"illegal-immigration" surge is all about lawbreaking, how come we haven’t seen a similar massive outpouring of demand for a crackdown on speed limit violations?
Maybe because speeding is a local, not federal issue. There are all kinds of communities that use their local police to crack down on speeders, this isn’t the bailiwick of the federal government. And it’s incredibly dishonest of you to draw a parallel.
The net effect of the wall will be to cut total immigration to the US sharply.
I already blew you out of the water on this point, and you insist on bringing it up again. I’ll just put you into the same pile that I put David Shaghnessy, mkultra, and Scott Erb: intellectually dishonest fools.
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://
I already blew you out of the water on this point,

You have done no such thing, Steve. As far as I can tell, you’ve said something to the effect of "Nobody wants to restrict legal immigration, honest, stop saying that!". This is entirely beside the point, which you have apparently failed to understand.

Eliminating illegal immigration into the country will sharply reduce overall immigration into this country. See the following equations:

Overall Immigration = Legal Immigration + Illegal Immigration

Overall Immigration - illegal immigration = Less Immigration

You’re arrogant. You’re obnoxious. And you’ve had trouble understanding, formulating, and replying to very simple statements of obvious fact. I really couldn’t give two shi*s about your opinion of me.
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://

 
Add Your Comment
  NOTICE: While we don't wish to censor your thoughts, we do blacklist certain terms of profanity or obscenity. This is not to muzzle you, but to ensure that the blog remains work-safe for our readers. If you wish to use profanity, simply insert asterisks (*) where the vowels usually go. Your meaning will still be clear, but our readers will be able to view the blog without worrying that content monitoring will get them in trouble when reading it.
Comments for this entry are closed.
Name:
Email:
URL:
HTML Tools:
Bold Italic Blockquote Hyperlink
Comment:
   
 
Vicious Capitalism

Divider

Buy Dale's Book!
Slackernomics by Dale Franks

Divider

Divider