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Hugo as Jesus
Posted by: McQ on Tuesday, November 13, 2007

Perhaps he ought to give Howard Dean a call and discuss theology:
Likening himself to Jesus Christ, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez says that if he stops talking — as suggested at the weekend by an irate Spanish monarch — "the stones of Latin America will cry out."

Chavez was speaking on his return from an Ibero-American summit in Chile, which took a sour turn when the outspoken Venezuelan leader repeatedly called conservative former Spanish prime minister Jose Maria Aznar a "fascist," prompting Spain's King Juan Carlos to tell Chavez to "shut up."

"When the king explodes because of the statements of an Indian, it is the explosion of 500 years of imperial arrogance, 500 years of royalism, of outrages, 500 years of feelings of superiority," Chavez said, in reference to Spain's colonial legacy in Latin America.

"If I stopped talking, the stones of Latin America would cry out, because the people are willing to be free of any kind of colonialism after 500 years," he added.

In case the allusion to Jesus was missed, the office of the presidency issued a statement giving the biblical reference (Luke 19:38-40). Urged by his critics to rebuke his disciples for praising him as one sent from God, Jesus replied, "I tell you, if these keep silent, the stones would cry out."

The self-styled Bolivarian revolutionary has invoked Jesus before.

When he took an oath starting his new presidential term last January, he did so in the name of "Christ, the greatest socialist in history."
Note that he didn't want the reference missed so he had his PR folks issue a press release so everyone would know he's nuttier than a fruitcake.

I have to admit I took no little measure of pleasure this weekend when I heard that Spain's King Juan Carlos told the mouthy Chavez to 'shut up'. I'm not big on monarchs but in this case, go Juan Carlos!

Watching what is happening is Venezuela is both maddening and frightening. It's a scenario a good fiction writer would be proud of. But it's not fiction. It is one horrible reality. And that's unfortunate for Venezuelans.
 
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Comments
What I like about Hugo is he’s so direct.
None of this slow progressive efforts leading down the road to hell here.
Fast, direct, no stops.

I give him another 4 years tops before some officer thinks he’d sound better than Hugo on the Sunday weekly peptalk broadcast.

I think his problem is, he has a country that had a future, was heading for it, and he thinks he can sidetrack them into the kind of crap that various stooges were able to pull on national populations in the first half of the last century.
This time I think he has too much communications infrastructure to pull it off.

We know Fidel is his idol, and that’s where he’s headed.
Should be interesting to see how he manages that with no ocean to isolate his people from everyone else in Central and South American.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
The fool!

Doesn’t he know that this is what ruined the Beetles???
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Doesn’t he know that this is what ruined the Beetles???

He’s married to Yoko Ono?
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
lolz
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Not that I particularly want to defend this arrogant man, but you’ve quite misunderstood his use of this quote.

In Luke 19 Jesus is responding to those who want Jesus to silence his disciples, who are crying out "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" in praise of Jesus. In other words, Chavez is comparing himself and his message NOT directly to Jesus, but to what Jesus’ DISCIPLES say.

This is all more consistent with Chavez portraying himself as a true DISCIPLE of Jesus (the great socialist), not as a Messiah himself.
 
Written By: bruhaha
URL: http://
So let me get this straight-

The left thinks Bush is some god-obsessed lunatic christo-theocrat, but they just wuv Chavez?

 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
One bullet. One simple, long ranged Sniper’s bullet. That’s all we need.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Careful Joel, where I come from that’s called ’incitement to murder’......
 
Written By: Blewyn
URL: http://
Really?

Where you come from cares if Hugo gets shot in the head, perhaps while sitting down to dinner?
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Don’t worry, Blewyn. If there comes a time where Chavez’s Brown Coats come a callin’, I’ll have more things to worry about then than my little wish.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
If there comes a time where Chavez’s Brown Coats come a callin’, I’ll have more things to worry about then than my little wish.

The Brown Coats would never "come a call’n." The Brown COats believed in Liberty...oh I’m sorry this isn’t a thread about "Firefly" please continue.
Careful Joel, where I come from that’s called ’incitement to murder’......
Well where WE come from Blewyn, we have this thing called the First Amendment; so we’d call this "Freedom of Speech."
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Where Blewyn comes from comments like "who will rid me of this meddlesome priest!" result in harchbishops of Canterburies ’aving their ’eads lopped off.

You can see the apprehension Joel’s comment would cause in such a place.

Here, aside from free speech, we call it wishful thinking.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Joel C.,

I see Hugo as a positive. Not for the people of Venezuela, but for most the rest.

Let’s see more lefty celebrity types and political types get to pose with him, while he flushes Venezuela down the toilet. This is playing to our benifit, why cut it short?
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
because I seriously believe this problem should be nipped in the bud before it gets worse. Venezuela, even if led by a fool, is in the unique position to cause serious damage to all of South America. With the backing of Fidel (the sweetheart of the communist movement), Chavez could do serious harm there. Worse, with Fidel dying, I think Chavez will start expanding sooner rather than later.

Again, an oil rich Venezuela is problematic. An oil rich Venezuela with a crazy leader who fancies himself Simon Bolivar is dangerous.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
" An oil rich Venezuela with a crazy leader who fancies himself Simon Bolivar is dangerous."

Given the record of that type of government, he won’t be oil rich for long. It doesn’t matter how much you can get per barrel if you can’t produce the barrels.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
I’m reminded of Dave Barry’s plan to replace the Department of Defense with the Department of A Couple Of Guys Named Victor.

This is from an interview with Reason magazine in 1994 I believe:

Barry: This is one of those times I wasn’t kidding. At the time, we were mad at Moammar Gadhafi, which resulted in us bombing all over Libya and killing a bunch of people, but not him. Then Ronald Reagan gets up and says we’re not trying to kill him, we’re just dropping bombs. You can kill all the Libyans you want, but legally you can’t try to kill the leader.

The other one was Manuel Noriega. Here we have a problem with just one person, and we send all these troops down to deal with it. All these people get killed and hurt, but not Noriega.

So instead of messing around with armies, get a couple of guys named Victor. The president meets with them and has breakfast, or he goes to dinner with them at the restaurant of their choice, and suggests that he’s having a problem. Then the next thing you know, you read in the paper that Saddam Hussein has suffered an unfortunate shaving accident resulting in the loss of his head. We don’t involve a lot of 22-year-old kids in this dispute between George Bush and Saddam Hussein.
 
Written By: kevin r
URL: http://
bruhaha, that’s the proper interpretation, but Chavez does see himself as Latin America’s messiah. So you did read the passage correctly, which Chavez used incorrectly.

Funny a couple of you guys should talk about killing him. I had the same thought:

If Chavez really is like Christ, let’s test it by killing him to see if he comes back to life on the third day.
 
Written By: Perry Eidelbus
URL: http://eidelblog.blogspot.com
Probably the fastest way to make him a popular martyr is to assasinate him. His banner, etc. could then be taken up by any number of folks.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
Probably the fastest way to make him a popular martyr is to assasinate him. His banner, etc. could then be taken up by any number of folks.

But he’d be dead...Che Guevera (sp.) is a Left-Wing martyr, but he is out of the revolution business, too.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Joe,

And Che is more powerful in death than he was in life. Far more powerful in fact. By the time of his capture he was a fairly marginalized figure.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
But he’d be dead...Che Guevera (sp.) is a Left-Wing martyr, but he is out of the revolution business, too.
What I’d like is a picture of Che groveling and pleading for his life. Then maybe he would’nt be striking a pose from every other leftist moron’s T-shirt.

Che’s revolution buisness wasn’t going too well after he left Cuba, and I’m of the understanding that he lucked out in Cuba.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Don,

His efforts to aid or foment revolution in the Congo and Bolivia both failed.

Anyway, as far as I know that isn’t how he died.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
Chavez, who already had his chance to speak, then tried to interrupt Zapatero. This is when King Juan Carlos leaned forward and said angrily:

Por que no te callas?

Which means, “Why don’t you shut up?

The Spanish language press noted that the king used the familiar form of the word “you,” which is a way to show disrespect for someone who is not your friend.
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
This isn’t Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
But he’d be dead...Che Guevera (sp.) is a Left-Wing martyr, but he is out of the revolution business, too.
Heh ... yeah, if it meant putting up with Hugo’s ugly mug on a few sweatshirts and posters for the next 20 or so years but a free Venezuela, I could live with that.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
And Che is more powerful in death than he was in life. Far more powerful in fact.
Really ... so what revolution has he started and who has he executed lately?

Sometime, just for laughs, walk up to someone wearing a Che t-shirt and asking him or her about Che. You’ll find out quickly enough how "powerful" Che remains.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
His efforts to aid or foment revolution in the Congo and Bolivia both failed.

Anyway, as far as I know that isn’t how he died.
The Bolivian Rangers executed him. He pleaded for his life.

And previously, when he surrendered, he really tried to make the point that he was worth more alive than dead, and attempted to ingrate himself with his captors.

An M-2 carbine was used to kill him (ironically his faverite weapon), and IIRC the Ranger who did it messed it up and had to use several bursts.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
He pleaded for his life.

According to this piece this is what Che stated upon being told he was to be executed:

"Che turned white... before saying: ’It’s better this way, I should have died in combat.’"

Now maybe at some other point in his capture he pleaded for his life, but apparently when death came a knocking he was resigned to his fate.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine!" (Obi Wan Kenobi).

I’m sure that’s exactly what Che was thinking when those .30 cal carbine rounds passed through him.

 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
McQ,

Really ... so what revolution has he started and who has he executed lately?

Che’s image inspired revolutions throughout Latin America. The influence is seen throughout the revolutionary literature of various movements from his death onward. Check out who many members of the Sandinistas say they draw inspiration from, etc. It is all throughout the literature, the rhetoric, etc. of various revolutionary groups in Latin America. Che in death has had a tremendous influence on Latin American affairs.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
looker,

I almost made an analogy to Obi Wan, but you know, Obi Wan was a good guy.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
McQ,

In other words, if you think that Che’s influence is exclusively confined to the marketing of T-shirts then you are sadly mistaken.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
Che’s image inspired revolutions throughout Latin America.
Oh, please.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
McQ,

I’m stating anything that is remotely controversial. So yes, back at you with "Oh please."
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
Errr..

I’m not...
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
I’m stating anything that is remotely controversial.
The word "inspired" has a pretty specific meaning, so if "oh, please" doesn’t get the point across, how about BS?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Well, the inspiration doesn’t mean much then, all things considered.
Or did I fall asleep and miss the Marxists revolutionary revival in Central America?
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
looker,

Yes, you did apparently.

McQ,

Sorry, I’m not into logomachy.

Let me ask you a rather obvious question: if Che’s legacy hasn’t been that significant, if his influence hasn’t inspired all manner of Latin American revolutionaries, etc. why oh why has so much effort been mustered to counter Che’s positive image? To keep some kids from wearing t-shirts with his face emblazoned on it?
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
Let me ask you a rather obvious question: if Che’s legacy hasn’t been that significant, if his influence hasn’t inspired all manner of Latin American revolutionaries, etc....
Nice try. Please point me to one revolution his image has inspired.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Logomachy.

Neat. Thanks for the new word, it will come in handy here.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Neat. Thanks for the new word, it will come in handy here.
It’s especially neat when you’re backed into a rhetorical corner because of your imprecision with words.

 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Samos,

You have no idea what you’re talking about. Do you know who inspired revolutions across Latin America?

Fidel Castro: the same person who felt Guevara was a threat and exiled him ONLY because he wasn’t able to kill him outright, all the while paying lip-service to him. After all, in the Church of Socialism, there an be only one God, and Fidel does not like to share.

The only thing Che Guevara ’inspired’ is this new chic fashion of wearing his face on red t-shirts by rich, elitist college students, artists, celebrities, and professors.

Then again...you probably know about as much about latin american studies as you do about fornicating, as dear ol’ Patton would have said.

So, my suggestion? Read up first, THEN come make a fool out of yourself :)

 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
McQ,

The Nicaraguan revolution quite obviously. And by obviously, I mean, well, obviously. It was deeply Guavarian in nature. This well known amongst observers of the revolution. Read the works of these people. They chatter about che constantly. Indeed, Che is still used as a prominent symbol in Sandinista political campaigns.

It’s especially neat when you’re backed into a rhetorical corner because of your imprecision with words.

The only person backed into a corner is yourself. Che is a sumpremely important figure in these revolutionary movements, and thus deeply inspirational to them, along with other folks like Jose Carlos Mariategui. You haven’t provided any evidence to deny this fact all you have done is argue about word usage. That ought to tell you something about your position.

Joel C.,

Do you know who inspired revolutions across Latin America?

Fidel Castro...


Sure, he aided in their development. And part of his campaign was the use of a particular image of Che. He’s used it a lot, particularly in Cuba.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
McQ,

BTW, just to clue you in a bit more; Chavez and Evo Morales both talk about Che a lot. But apparently that indicate any influence, inspiration, etc. on the part of Che’s legacy.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
Joel C.,

BTW, just to head off another line of argument, I never claimed that Che was the exclusive inspiration for Latin American revolutionaries.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
Again, you don’t understand the dynamics of Latin America if you keep spewing this nonsense.

The most important thing Che ever did was get murdered by the CIA. That’s it. Castro, being if nothing else intelligent, used that to turn the image of Che into a martyr. However, you want to see fervor? Let Fidel Castro appear at any of those leftist functions. Nicaragua, El Salvador, Venezuela: none of that could have happened without Castro.

Again: you don’t know what you’re talking about.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
The Nicaraguan revolution quite obviously.
Nonsense. His "image" did nothing to "inspire" that revolution. And before you waste more time attempting to equate "legacy = image", it’s not selling. The image in question was quite specific in nature, i.e. that which can be found on t-shirts.

Che’s image inspired revolutions throughout Latin America.

It was nonsense when you wrote it and it remains nonsense despite all your effort to change the subject.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Joel C.,

The most important thing Che ever did was get murdered by the CIA. That’s it.

If that is the case then how do you explain the wide dissemination of his writings amongst Latin American revolutionary movements?

Nicaragua, El Salvador, Venezuela: none of that could have happened without Castro.

Even if that is the case it doesn’t undermine the argument I have made here.

In other words, you don’t understand the various influences, inspirations, etc. of Latin American revolutionaries; not all of it has to do with Castro and like any "movement" (its nothing as organized as that) people come to the "party" with different backgrounds, etc.

McQ,

The image in question was quite specific in nature, i.e. that which can be found on t-shirts.

Which is of course not the length and breadth of the Che’s image or the idealized story of his life.

It was nonsense when you wrote it and it remains nonsense despite all your effort to change the subject.

I haven’t tried to change the subject. I have remained on the same subject throughout and argued the same point over and over again. Now, what I have yet to see from you is a single substantive comment on this issue.

Anyway, you are of course more than free to prove me wrong on the issue. I mean, for example, delve into the Nicaraguan revolution of the 1970s, see what the revolutionaries were saying about how Che’s thoughts, image, etc. effected their lives. You’ll see that many of them became revolutionaries because their particular understanding of Che.



 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
McQ,

The image in question was quite specific in nature, i.e. that which can be found on t-shirts.

BTW, the image in question re: my argument has never been that of the one found on the t-shirt. That’s pretty obvious from my statements. I’ve obviously been talking about his writings, the stories passed on about his life, etc. You’re the one who brought up the t-shirt.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
Which is of course not the length and breadth of the Che’s image or the idealized story of his life.
Which is irrelevant to the context of the discussion and your statement. Look, you can continue this attempt to weasel word out of what you said, and it may amuse you and others to some extent. But as far as I’m concerned it was and remains a nonsense statement for which you’ve offered nothing, absolutely nothing, to back up.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
BTW, the image in question re: my argument has never been that of the one found on the t-shirt. That’s pretty obvious from my statements. I’ve obviously been talking about his writings, the stories passed on about his life, etc. You’re the one who brought up the t-shirt.
Baloney.

That’s fairly clear isn’t it?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
If that is the case then how do you explain the wide dissemination of his writings amongst Latin American revolutionary movements?
you must suffer from ’selective tunnel vision’. What part of ’martyr’ didn’t you understand?

Che Guevara was a TERRIBLE writer by any standard. In fact, even those who like him can only boast of mediocrity at best. It was the image of the ’poet revolutionary’ that was cultivated that was important, and even then that image was not spun from Che or his followers, but by a dictator on an island who had other ambitions.

Marx is the base ideology that was followed, but even Marx was later hyphenated by a Slav. Though Marxist-Leninism became the founding ’philosophy’, none can argue that it was Stalinism that was followed from the time of Lenin’s death to present day Cuba. Yet if you look around, you’ll see statues of Lenin and t-shirts with Che’s face on it.

Latin America has only had two heroes since the fall of the Spanish Empire: Simon Bolivar and, to a lesser extent in South America but to a greater one in the Caribbean, Jose Marti. Fidel knew that to father a movement there needed to be an ’image’, but that ’image’ needed to be stiff. Che provided the pretty face, Fidel provided the politics.

Follow Che’s life even before his death and you’ll note he wasn’t able to inspire anything greater than a mob. Hell, he was almost killed in Argentina before he fled. It wasn’t until Fidel took over Cuba that Che had a ’success’ on his hands, and it followed on the skirts of Castro. But no one likes uppity people, and even Che had to leave Cuba before he was killed by a. the people who were getting tired of being tortured by him and b. Castro, who never learned (or liked) to share.

Che’s legacy comes from his death by the CIA, the Evil Imperial Capitalists let loosed by the greatest threat to Socialism ever, the US (in their eyes, mind you). The most important thing he ever did was be killed so publicly by the CIA, and even then it came after he was betrayed by his ’followers’. When did Che become huge? When Castro turned his image into that of the first martyr of Latin America. That’s it.

Again, go read a book.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
McQ,

Look, you can continue this attempt to weasel word out of what you said, and it may amuse you and others to some extent.

You can continue to make vague allusions to weasling and so forth and I will continue to ignore them. Make an argument an argument about how I am weasling on this subject and then I’ll have something to actually sink my teeth into.

But as far as I’m concerned it was and remains a nonsense statement for which you’ve offered nothing, absolutely nothing, to back up.

Sure I have. I’ve offered plenty of evidence to substantiate my claim. You have offered none to counter my claim.

Baloney.

If it is baloney why did I write this?

In other words, if you think that Che’s influence is exclusively confined to the marketing of T-shirts then you are sadly mistaken.

I’m clearly stating right there, in almost the first thing I wrote to you on this subject that the issue concerns more than t-shirts.






 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
You can continue to make vague allusions to weasling and so forth and I will continue to ignore them.
Of course you will.

Good, we’re done.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Joel C.,

Che Guevara was a TERRIBLE writer by any standard.

Well, goodness so was Lenin. His writings were still well disseminated and quite influential. Well, even to get worse so was the writing of Chernyshevsky, but his work "What Is To Be Done?" influenced a whole generation of Russian radicals (and it is truly an awful book). The quality of the writing often has very little to do with its influence.

In fact, even those who like him can only boast of mediocrity at best.

Yet his works were and are widely disseminated and read and re-read.

It was the image of the ’poet revolutionary’ that was cultivated that was important, and even then that image was not spun from Che or his followers, but by a dictator on an island who had other ambitions.

His image was cultivated by a whole lot of people.

Follow Che’s life even before his death and you’ll note he wasn’t able to inspire anything greater than a mob.
Sure, I never claimed otherwise. Indeed, that goes my point. That in death Che has been far more influential than in life and that it would have been far better for him to have been put on trial and sent to jail like a number of Peruvian revolutionaries than to have summarily executed him. I’m not quite sure who you are arguing with.

Che’s legacy comes from his death by the CIA, the Evil Imperial Capitalists let loosed by the greatest threat to Socialism ever, the US (in their eyes, mind you). The most important thing he ever did was be killed so publicly by the CIA, and even then it came after he was betrayed by his ’followers’. When did Che become huge? When Castro turned his image into that of the first martyr of Latin America. That’s it.

To be frank, this only goes to my point. You basically apparently agree with me. My only point of difference would be that Castro was not the exclusive or even at times most important disseminator of the idealized Che.

 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
McQ,

Of course you will.

I don’t see any other reason to do otherwise.


Joel C.,

Ooops, let me correct that last part:

Follow Che’s life even before his death and you’ll note he wasn’t able to inspire anything greater than a mob.

Sure, I never claimed otherwise. Indeed, that goes my point. That in death Che has been far more influential than in life and that it would have been far better for him to have been put on trial and sent to jail like a number of Peruvian revolutionaries than to have summarily executed him. I’m not quite sure who you are arguing with.

Che’s legacy comes from his death by the CIA, the Evil Imperial Capitalists let loosed by the greatest threat to Socialism ever, the US (in their eyes, mind you). The most important thing he ever did was be killed so publicly by the CIA, and even then it came after he was betrayed by his ’followers’. When did Che become huge? When Castro turned his image into that of the first martyr of Latin America. That’s it.

This only goes to my point. You basically apparently agree with me. My only point of difference would be that Castro was not the exclusive or even at times most important disseminator of the idealized Che.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
Well, goodness so was Lenin. His writings were still well disseminated and quite influential.
are you purposefully being dense?

LENIN LED THE REVOLUTION YOU DOLT! Of COURSE his writings were going to be disseminated, he was the bloody victor, the father of Communism. Even Stalin couldn’t do much to cover that, and God knows he didn’t try.

And you’re trying to compare him to Che? With all the straws your grasping at, you’ll have a pretty big hat soon.
Yet his works were and are widely disseminated and read and re-read.
So is Harry Potter. Hell, so is George Foreman’s cookbook.

What you are failing to see is that all the attention is scant lip service, part of the image created. which leads us to...
His image was cultivated by a whole lot of people.

No, it wasn’t. It was cultivated specifically by Castro. The entire image you see today comes from Cuba.
That in death Che has been far more influential than in life and that it would have been far better for him to have been put on trial and sent to jail like a number of Peruvian revolutionaries than to have summarily executed him. I’m not quite sure who you are arguing with.
That’s just it: he wasn’t.

Look at all his exploits: Argentina, Guatemala, Congo, Bolivia - where his failure was so catastrophic and his views so myopic they got him captured and killed.

The only success he can boast of come at the heals of Castro’s conquering of Batista’s Cuba.

With that kind of track record, how can you even begin to explain where he got any influence? It was as a delegate to the UN from CUBA that he became an image: again, through the machinations of Castro.

If not for Castro, Che today would be only a footnote in history for his role in La Cabaña.

I do not agree with you, Samos. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
and by ’heals’ I mean ’heels’
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Joel C.,

The example of Lenin is by no means a perfect analogy and it was never meant to be. The point is of course that a poorly written work is not necessarily going to condemn a work to oblivion. That has not been the case with Che or Lenin’s work.

Chernyshevsky did not lead the revolution and his novel was quite influential. Now his fate was different than Che’s since he ended up in a Tsarist prison camp and was thus not summarily executed.

What you are failing to see is that all the attention is scant lip service...

Many Latin American revolutionaries found much of their fervor in Che’s written works, so it wasn’t simply lip service.

Look at all his exploits: Argentina, Guatemala, Congo, Bolivia - where his failure was so catastrophic and his views so myopic they got him captured and killed.

I will note that above I actually mentioned his failures in Bolivia and the Congo long before you got involved in this conversation. So I am well aware of his actual biography.

With that kind of track record, how can you even begin to explain where he got any influence?

Because obviously those portions of his track record are simply ignored or they are explained away (as Che himself did in his writings - for example, in his work on his exploits in the Congo he argues that other people were to blame for the problems there). I’m not making any argument about how Che’s life was actually was lived, but about the idealized Che.

If not for Castro, Che today would be only a footnote in history for his role in La Cabaña.

Castro was only one individual involved in creating the idealized Che.



 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
Joel C.,

BTW, since you’ve told me to go read a book, how about you help me out by giving me some suggestions on these matters.

I myself would suggest that you read Omar Cabezas’ Fire from the Mountain: The Making of a Sandinista for a well written statement on at least one Nicaraguan revolutionary’s vision of what it meant to be a Sandinista. It has been a long time since I read it but I recall it be well worth the time.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
The example of Lenin is by no means a perfect analogy and it was never meant to be.
BS

I grow tired of this. You’re simply weasling around, and quite frankly, you’re not even entertaining enough to pursue.

You can have this mindless discussion on your own. I’m done enabling you.

Christ, but it’s like talking to a brick wall.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Joel C.,

How exactly am I weasling around, this? By openly admitting that the analogy isn’t a perfect one?

Anyway, got any book recommendations? I mean, you did suggest I read up on the subject.
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
Makes one wonder why they called themselves Sandinistas as opposed to Guevaras
considering all the inspiration Che provided for them....
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
looker,

Because Sandino was the local national hero and also of some prominence as a folk hero, etc. throughout Latin America too. Why isn’t Al Qaeda called Al Qutb instead (for those who know Arabic forgive me if Al Qutb doesn’t make any formal sense - you get my point I am sure)?
 
Written By: Syloson of Samos
URL: http://ingenuus.blogspot.com/
But Che was an inspriation!
I know! My son’s favorite t-shirt has a picture of....
wait....
...that’s actually a picture of Internet celebrity Maddox...http://maddox.xmission.com/
never mind.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://

 
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