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How divisive is the immigration issue? (update)
Posted by: McQ on Thursday, November 29, 2007

Well it has the potential of being extremely divisive, especially in the super-partisan, supercharged political atmosphere today.

For example, this is my college roommate and one of my best friends in high school. I've known him most of my life. I've never, ever, known him to have a bigoted or racist bone in his body, at least not in all the years I was in daily contact with the man. Sure, we've not been in touch for quite some time, but he was always a guy of integrity. He built a business from the ground up, did very well and got into politics as many do.

Reading the email he wrote I'd say - in today's climate of taking anything which could be construed as negative as 'racist' - it probably wasn't the best historical example to use. And unless I'm missing his point, I think he actually meant the Civil War (and you'll probably remember that sending blacks back to Africa was something Lincoln supported). After the Revolutionary war, the status of blacks in this country didn't change one iota.

But while the example is poor I know this guy and I know not just who he is but what he's about. He claims his point was historical. I believe him. That said, I can also understand how others might take his words differently. So I urge my old roomie to consider an apology for a poorly worded historical example. And for those that want to make a huge racial mountain out of a stupid historical molehill, take a breath, look around and find something more worthy of your anger. To whomever released a private conversation between two people to the press, I hope you're proud of yourself.

UPDATE: Looks like he's apologized:
But state Sen. Denny Altes insisted the comments in the e-mail he sent earlier this month to former Fort Smith Mayor Bill Vines were not racist.

"I apologize and I am sorry if it hurt anyone's feelings. ... I'm sorry if it offended anyone, but I didn't consider it a racist remark," Altes told The Associated Press Thursday.

Altes, who is white, wrote in the e-mail that he was in favor of returning illegal aliens to their countries, but "we know that is impossible."
 
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"I’m sorry if it offended anyone"? That isn’t an apology by any stretch. Your friend is a racist, and what he wrote is racist. Please don’t try to pull that.
 
Written By: Oliver Willis
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
Everybody’s a racist to you, Ollie. Thanks for stopping by.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
No, Bruce, just people who talk about being overrun with blacks. I don’t think you’re racist, you don’t say things like that no matter how misguided I may think you are on the issues. I don’t think there’s any value to calling out people willy nilly for racism, but when it actually happens - yes.
 
Written By: Oliver Willis
URL: http://www.oliverwillis.com
No Oliver, YOU are a racist.

Damn, that was fun. I can see why you enjoy throwing the word around so much.

Racist.
 
Written By: Jeff
URL: http://
Short of pedophile I can’t think of a branding that is socially worse.

And so handy and easy to use!
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
"Sure, we are being overrun, but we are being out-populated by the blacks also."
I’m not sure it takes hyper-sensitivity to construe that as racist. It’s not that hard to read a contemptuous tone in the phrase "we are being out-populated by the blacks also." Does he simply mean that as a point of fact, with no pejorative sense? It may be the case, but if so, what an incredibly poor choice of words.


 
Written By: Grimshaw
URL: http://
Sure we are being overrun but we are being outpopulated by the blacks also."

Whenever I’m faced with a statement that seems racist but is defended with the “Oh, no, no he’s no racists, he just not use words goodly!” I think to myself how would someone who isn’t a racist put the idea being expressed?

In this case we don’t need to ask because someone who isn’t racist wouldn’t be concerned about being out-populated by another race. See only racists care about people’s race, funny how that works huh?

Ergo your former roomies is a f*cking racist and your defense of him suggests that you’re some kind of an *sshole.

The End.
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
Ergo your former roomies is a f*cking racist and your defense of him suggests that you’re some kind of an *sshole.
My defense of him suggests I actually know the guy, something a zero like you wouldn’t figure into the equation because it gets in the way of your desire to call people names.

Your DNA must cry itself to sleep every night, huh?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Please, tell me how can some be worried about being overrun by teh Blacks without being a racist? Square that circle Sparky, I’m all ears.
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
Try looking up the word "context" and then see if you can work it out for yourself, sweetpea.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
So what is the context that can make a sentence like "Sure we are being overrun but we are being outpopulated by the blacks also" sounds less racist?

It’s nice that you are loyal to your friend however you don’t have to defend the indefensible to do so.
 
Written By: Lee
URL: http://
The context in this case was a man talking about illegal immigrants "overrunning" his country and how a certain race is breeding faster than his race and that’s got him worried.

Aaaand the only people who worry about such things are racists.

Cuz America is not being "overrun" that is a retard piece of hyperbole right there.

But please, provide us with a context in which someone who isn’t a racist can say "Sure, we are being overrun, but we are being out-populated by the blacks also."

I’m all ears.

But I’m guessing you’re not going to answer that because you know your full of crap and you know your pal is a racist and you don’t mind because...

Well why don’t you mind I wonder? A rather obvious theory presents itself doesn’t it?
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
I’ve tried to consider how this is not a raciest remark. I agree with Salvage that I cannot think of a context in which the remark is not racist. At the very least it betrays a cultural racism of which we are all guilty.

A better apology would have been, "I’m sorry. I’ve considered my remark and I’ve come to the conclusion that it was indeed a racist remark. I promise to do better in the future to think through what I am saying. I will work hard to regain the trust of those whom I have offended."

THEN he needs to actually do that.
 
Written By: John Butler
URL: http://
As predicted McQ is suddenly McQuiet because he knows his buddy is racist and doesn’t care because I suspect he shares the same sad worry; too many damned Negroes running around ruining America.

I wonder, how many Blacks would guys like Denny Altes and Q find acceptable? Perhaps they should set some sort of quota? Like for every 5 Whites : 1 Colored? Would that ratio make your comfortable Q? Ease your fear of a Black Planet a tad?
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
Here’s a white guy who is a member of BlackPlanet.com putting his 2 cents in. No, the comment Altes made is indeed racist because in one page, he lumps illegal immigrants, Hispanics, and blacks altogether. He possibly shows frustration because they don’t vote Republican. Who would want to do so now? "We are bring outnumbered!" It sounds like what a member of the National Alliance might say. I don’t see no other way around it to keep from saying that Sen. Altes’s comments aren’t racial or racist. Three African-American legislators in Arkansas accepted his somewhat of an apology. He may not step down a state Senate minority leader, but the voters will decide if he will stay in office or not. I can’t defend his remarks, but it was suppose to a private e-mail between good friends.
 
Written By: El Cid
URL: http://
As predicted McQ is suddenly McQuiet because he knows his buddy is racist and doesn’t care because I suspect he shares the same sad worry; too many damned Negroes running around ruining America.
Not at all. You still have nothing going for you but name calling. And I see no reason to further entertain someone’s comments who can’t get beyond that.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Awesome but a fly your ointment:

In case you haven’t noticed more gentle commentators have made the exact same point, the one that you are ignoring, that your "context" defense is clearly disingenuous.

Why don’t you answer them I wonder?

Nah, just kidding,I know why, you’re wrong and you’re a wingnut (oh noes! More name calling! McQuick get the smelling salts before he McPasses out! Poor delicate flower) and wingnuts can never, ever admit when they’re wrong.

Your buddy is a bigot and you’ve all but confirmed that you share the same feelings, otherwise why would you be so bloody-minded in your defense?
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
Nah, just kidding,I know why, you’re wrong and you’re a wingnut (oh noes! More name calling! McQuick get the smelling salts before he McPasses out! Poor delicate flower) and wingnuts can never, ever admit when they’re wrong.
Thanks for demonstrating the point so cleverly.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
That you’re at the very least a defender of racists if not a racist yourself? No problemo! Rather easy really, you did most of the heavy lifting.

Why won’t you explain how the context in this case shows that your buddy isn’t a racist?
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
That you’re at the very least a defender of racists if not a racist yourself? No problemo! Rather easy really, you did most of the heavy lifting.
That you add nothing to this but shallow name calling is beyond dispute and verifies the fact that you’re simply unable to contribute anything else.
Why won’t you explain how the context in this case shows that your buddy isn’t a racist?
The context is in the post ... if you’re not familiar with the history, that’s your problem, not mine. Look it up.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Which context specifically? Why are you being so slippery about this if you’re so righteous I wonder?

The "historical" thing? So your racist buddy was talking about America being "out-populated by the blacks also." after the Civil War? Why is he still worried about that? Maybe you can tell him that the Civil War was quite awhile ago and that things have changed.

Or was it the "private conversation" thing? That since it was in the context of an email exchange it couldn’t be racist because he’d never say it in public? So he’s a private racist which is just like not being a racist at all or at least close enough for you?

Or is the context this?:

"He built a business from the ground up, did very well and got into politics as many do."

As in that somehow that belays any possibility of him being racist? Bigots can’t be money makers or something? So if someone says something racist all we need to do is to look at their income and that will confirm or deny it?

Or is the context of the Lincoln defense:

"and you’ll probably remember that sending blacks back to Africa was something Lincoln supported"

So if Lincoln is fer it it’s can’t be racist? But you do know that Lincoln wasn’t all that against slavery? That he promised he wouldn’t interfere with it in his inaugural address? And that the only reason he ’freed the slaves’ was because it would prevent England and France from helping the South out?

Or is the context you perhaps? That because you know him he couldn’t possibly be a racist because you surly would have noticed unless...

Well sometimes it takes one to not to notice one.

Just tell us, just say his obviously racist remark doesn’t demonstrate that he’s a racist because...
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
Buddy, if you’re not smart enough to figure it out, that’s your problem. Whining that I won’t point it out to you when it is clearly mentioned in the post simply points to your unwillingness or inability to rationally follow a point. And as it stands, that’s the only crystal clear fact that has come out of this exchange.

Why in the world should I spend any time doing the work for an idiot who seems incapable of doing for himself?

I’ve made my argument. You’ve responded with name calling and haven’t moved an inch beyond that. I see no reason to entertain your stupidity any longer unless you can actually contribute something of substance. And I have no doubt whatsoever that doing so is far beyond any ability you might have. You’re a drive-by troll and it doesn’t go any deeper than that.

Figure it out and respond rationally. Otherwise, find somewhere else to drop your juvenile rants.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Gosh Q, that’d be fine if it were just me but I’m not the only one here that’s pointed out that there is no possible context in which those remarks could be construed as anything other than racist. So your whole "not smart enough to figure it out" thing rings rather hollow, I think that’s your problem in fact.

It’s been fun making you squirm and your last "It’s not me it’s you!!!" huff is the perfect coda and makes it quite clear where you stand on the issue.
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
Gosh Q, that’d be fine if it were just me but I’m not the only one here that’s pointed out that there is no possible context in which those remarks could be construed as anything other than racist.
And of course, that makes it so, huh?

That’s what I mean ... you obviously haven’t the intellectual ability to figure it out and consequently I’m certainly not going to waste my time trying to help you with something you apparently can’t comprehend in the first place.

You are well beyond your abilities when you try to move past name calling.
It’s been fun making you squirm and your last "It’s not me it’s you!!!" huff is the perfect coda and makes it quite clear where you stand on the issue.
LOL! That’s the hilarious irony - you haven’t a clue where I stand on the issue because you don’t even know what the issue is.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
LOL! That’s the hilarious irony - you haven’t a clue where I stand on the issue because you don’t even know what the issue is.
Ah the Chewbacca defense, well played Professor Moriarty! Well played, I thought you were just going to stick with the fingers in the ears la-la-la protocol, I see I’ve overestimated you.

The issue is that your good buddy said something that no matter what the context is racist, that only a racist would say "Sure, we are being overrun, but we are being out-populated by the blacks also."

With me so far? I’m not sure if I can explain it any simpler so I’m going to assume you are.

You then defended this statement by saying that you know the guy and he isn’t a racist

Which holds no water because he said something that was clearly racist.

You then claimed it was all about context but have thus so far refused to explain what that context is, insisting that it’s in your original post.

But it’s not, there is nothing in your post that even begins to suggest a reasonable defense along those lines. The historical angle simply makes no sense, he was obviously addressing current illegal alien affairs and fretting that there were too many Blacks already! Nothing to do with the Revolutionary or Civil wars.

Furthermore you seem to think that my name calling somehow negates the fact that you’re full of crap.

Fact: It doesn’t.
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
Fact is, you skipped a step and that’s been obvious to everyone but you thus far.

Good luck with figuring it out.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
This whole "It’s not me, it’s you!" schtik?

Not working.

But being a wingnut you think that hanging a "mission accomplished" banner compensates.

Your buddy is a racist and your probably are as well.

No other explanation fits.
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
But being a wingnut you think that hanging a "mission accomplished" banner compensates.

Your buddy is a racist and your probably are as well.
Back to the name calling eh?

Whatta surprise.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Stating facts Sparky, facts that you don’t seem capable of denying.

Show me I’m wrong, show me in what possible context one could say "Sure, we are being overrun, but we are being out-populated by the blacks also." and not be a racist?

Since your so smart and right and I so dumb and wrong it should be a doodle and yet you can’t.

Why is that?
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
Stating facts Sparky, facts that you don’t seem capable of denying.
Good lord, you don’t even know the difference between opinion and facts.

Leave while you still have some semblance of credibility left, sweetpea. You’ve proven your level of competence is in the name-calling arena and nothing else. Go while that at least nominally remains a "plus" for you.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Whoaho! Now it’s "opinions", a new gear shift.

Okay, it’s my opinion that one cannot say "Sure, we are being overrun, but we are being out-populated by the blacks also." without being a racist.

How is my opinion wrong?

You want me to go away (and clearly you do) to make it happen all you have to do is answer the question.
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/
The education of a chronic name caller continues:
How is my opinion wrong?
Opinions are opinions, to be agreed with or not.

I disagree with your opinion. Any part of that you don’t understand so far?
You want me to go away (and clearly you do) to make it happen all you have to do is answer the question.
I just did. Bye.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://qando.net
No, no you didn’t.

Why do you have such a hard time differentiating between what you’d like to happen with what has actually has happened? From Iraq to economics the pattern is unmistakable.

Let’s try again, I’ll make is so easy for you, just fill in the blank:

I, McQ, disagree with your opinion that it is impossible for anyone other than a racist to say "Sure we are being overrun but we are being outpopulated by the blacks also." because___________________________________________
 
Written By: salvage
URL: http://www.hairyfishnuts.com/

 
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