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Why we don’t say the "F" word in my house
Posted by: McQ on Tuesday, December 18, 2007

And it isn't the "F" word you might imagine. Terry Garlock, a Cobra gunship pilot during the VN war, reminds us why a certain celebrity's recent birthday didn't deserve the coverage it got and how the media has been complicit in ignoring her treason (and why it was treason and not "protesting"). He says it all pretty well and echoes my feelings (and those of millions of other VN vets) as well. I've conducted a silent boycott of her since the '70s, never bought a thing she's done or product she's endorsed and will continue that until either she or I die.

 
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Me too. Here are some Jane F**** quotes that I photocopied from a book and, unforturnately, forgot to write the source on my copy.

I would think that if you understood what communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees, that we would someday become communists.
Jane F**** speech at Michigan State
University to raise money for the Black
Panthers. Detroit Free Press 22 Nov
1969

My position on the POW issue has been widely misquoted and taken out of context. What I originally said and have continued to say is the the POW’s are lying if they assert it was North Vietnamese policy to torture American prisoners.
Jane F****, "Who is Being Brainwashed?"
An Indochina Peace Campaign Report
Santa Monica: Indochina Peace Campaign 1973

We have no reason to believe that U.S. Air Force officers tell the truth. They are professional killers.
Jane F****, Washington Star
April 19, 1973

In deference to your desire to not use the "F" word I have followed suit.
 
Written By: tom scott
URL: http://
My college professor who taught a course on Vietnam had a great anecdote for us. (BTW the class was very good, he kept things factual and tried to be as unbiased as possible)

He told us of his time working luggage at an airport, don’t remember which one, but apparently Ms F**** had been traveling through it and her luggage was lost. Somehow he ended up in front of her and she was raving and ranting on about him losing his luggage and his response. "Why don’t you ask the North Vietnamese where your luggage is" :D
 
Written By: josh b
URL: http://
She’s not dead yet?

Isn’t she, like, 90?
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
McQ, you are confirming what I already know — you take personal grudges way too seriously and refuse to let go. I just could never be that way. Oh well, whatever gets you through the night, it’s alright.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
You could probably forgive Benedict Arnold too. Have him round for drinks, maybe he and the Missus could stay over for breakies and you could whip up Eggs Benedict for him.



I’m with McQ - I don’t watch, or buy and whatever she has to say I ignore.
What she did was criminal, and the fact that she makes her living off the very
country, society and government that she was belittling is only proof that we
were right and she was full of.....herself.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Forgiveness must be sought before forgiveness can be bestowed. I don’t recall Jane apologizing and asking for forgiveness.
 
Written By: tom scott
URL: http://
McQ, you are confirming what I already know — you take personal grudges way too seriously and refuse to let go. I just could never be that way. Oh well, whatever gets you through the night, it’s alright.
Does that mean you’ve already forgiven Bush for all of his sins? Your coworkers might not be too happy to hear that!

Anyhow, maybe there’s just a bit of an academic disconnect regarding Jane Fonda. Few of my professors and college classmates ever spoke of Jane Fonda in a negative light, preferring to paint her as a rabid anti-Vietnam protester rather than acknowledge her work on behalf of the North Vietnamese government and military.

My experiences in the blue collar world were much different than my time spent in academia. People at almost every company that I have worked for spoke about Fonda’s words and actions, and more than a few wanted to see her put in jail. Regular people, both vets and non-vets alike, still harbor a lingering hatred for that woman.
 
Written By: Inebriated Arsonist
URL: http://
you are confirming what I already know
And Erb, you are confirming what we already know.

You have no true loyalty to anything and make judgments based on whatever suits your fancy for the day. That is why you are known as the mosquito and the weasel. It seems like a sad and pathetic life to the rest of us, but it seems to get you through the day.
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Does that mean you’ve already forgiven Bush for all of his sins?
Erb has instead reworked his perception of reality in order to argue that Bush is now thinking and pursuing goals just like Erb would recommend. That way, Erb does not have to acknowledge personal idiocy — he just pretends the world is coalescing around everything Erbiness no matter what the evidence shows. [You’ll notice Erb doesn’t actually link to any evidence — he just claims he has a Ph.D. and that makes him right.]
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
I just could never be that way. Oh well, whatever gets you through the night, it’s alright.
This, gentlemen, is a refined human being, very nearly human perfection. The F-Lady is not offensive to him because he is a fellow traveler. Ask him about McCarthy and watch the redfacedness come through the computer.
 
Written By: Rob
URL: http://
I never developed a true, deep-seated animosity toward Jane F., probably because back in the Vietnam era I was vaguely (and I mean vaguely) on the same side. I would unjustly condemn myself, however, if I failed to say that I never, as she did, wanted to see a victory for the North.

My position was that we simply had to stop fighting that war, and I think that was entirely based on the casualties we had taken and the number of years we had spent there.

I now see Vietnam as a heroic mission, essential to making a stand in the Cold War, that also successfully brought the Commies out in force here at home, where we could see them. And I don’t mean college students who didn’t want to get taken in the draft.

As far as F**** goes, I saw her interviewed when she came out with her book a couple years back, and I was just astonished at how someone reaching the age of 70 could remain so shallow. It’s as if all that life she had, in the end, brought her to the point of nothing more than therapeutic jibber-jabber.

And a note about Boris Erb, of course. He really thought that F**** going to N. Vietnam and engaging in treason was just swell. He really thought that was neat.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Honestly, if you thought what she did was cool, well, screw you. Let’s not entertain any more parsing about "dissent" or "being patriotic". This is one of those "lines in the sand" type things. I don’t really care about someone’s reasons for supporting the Communists. "Well, you have to understand what it was like in the sixties..." No, I don’t, screw you.
 
Written By: Rob
URL: http://
So Dr. Erb you have forgiven Edwin and Edwina Mosley for supporting the Nazi’s in the Second World War? And if you were to meet them it would be "Hail Fellow, Well Met?" You can’t grasp it, because like Iraq, Vietnam was a giant "social engineering disaster" and so you don’t view Jane Fonda as doing anything particularly wrong (Yeah, I used "Jane Fonda", I come from the Dumbledore School of Thought that says not naming an evil makes it stronger). But for most of us she was and IS a traitor...a vapid, shallow traitor, but a traitor nonetheless. I opened with a question concerning the Moselye’s because Fonda did the same thing, she pulled for the totalitarians to win....
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Absolution without atonement, professor? She and her ilk gave aid and comfort to the enemy and my generation paid the price in blood.

Perhaps my once best friend would still be alive today were it not for her and her fellow travellers. Now, he’s just another name on that wall.

End the war? That worked out well for our allies, didn’t it? Like the Holocaust, never forgive and never forget.
 
Written By: MarkD
URL: http://
Tom - Interesting quotes. I didn’t track Fonda back then or since. She’s certainly an emblem of American self-loathing that became mainstream during the sixties and still persists. I don’t know how that gets healed, or if it does, since that view is so entrenched in academia, the media, and Hollywood, which continue to propagandize those messages.

Speaking for myself, I am not going to forget all the current Democrats who did their best to force a loss in Iraq, though that doesn’t go as far as refusing to play Rickie Lee Jones CDs, for example, ever again.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
Does that mean you’ve already forgiven Bush for all of his sins?
Heck, I’ve had a lot of nice things to say about Bush recently. I simply cannot hold grudges or take things too personally. I’m just unable to do so. It seems pointless, and even petty, especially at this point. And the ones you should hold resonsible for the deaths in Vietnam are LBJ and JFK who got us there. They had a lot more influence on what happened than some actress.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
And the ones you should hold resonsible for the deaths in Vietnam are LBJ and JFK who got us there.
They weren’t responsible for soiling the reputations of our soldiers with all the talk of atrocities and "babykillers". Don’t whitewash her crimes for her. She made a tough situation much, much worse and not out of ignorance, I might add. We were battling her "freedom fighters" and she advocated on behalf of them. Any other era and she’d be hanging and rightly so...
 
Written By: Rob
URL: http://
Boris Erb, again with this:
I simply cannot hold grudges or take things too personally. I’m just unable to do so.
Boris, you act on your grudges by showing up in the midst of honest people trying their best to get at the truth. You know very well how off-putting your disingenousness is, but the trick is on you, pal. You’ve become a sort of standard by which people struggling to be as ethical as possible score dishonesty in discourse.

The "Erb" has become a unit of measurement of the "what can I make up today and repeat ad nauseum" method of lying.

In that sense, you’re indispensible.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Boris Erb tries this:
And the ones you should hold resonsible for the deaths in Vietnam are LBJ and JFK who got us there. They had a lot more influence on what happened than some actress.
See what I mean.

That’s a comment that intertwines your self-abasement with your hatred of the United States. That it’s a disgusting lie is secondary to the fact that you make it a casual observation in a room full of adults who know what it is. It’s your way of peeing on the carpet to show everyone what a big boy you are.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Erbermiester miestererber is just disappointed after his fathers beloved east germany crumbled under the wait of capitalism. He tried to fit within the DoS but realized they are all talk and not true to the beloved narrative (In fact I hear they use the narrative for political advantage [Do Tell]). So he gravitated with his silly simple thoughts and headed for the only place he would be taken seriously. Strike three, the only reason they listen is to get away from you with a decent grade.

For someone who claims to be such a libertarian I find it funny that the only way you can be heard or read is to force paying customers (Children) to listen and buy under the threat of ruin.
 
Written By: coaster
URL: http://
" I just could never be that way"

Because deep down inside, beneath all that bs about caring and spirituality, you don’t give a s*** about anything but yourself, and miss Jane hasn’t done anything to what you consider to be yours. Ars**ch.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Well, how about...

There’s holding a grudge and then there’s holding a Grudge.

It’s a bit like "tolerance" isn’t it? Some people view "tolerance" as nothing less than whole-hearted acceptance. Other people understand that there is no need to tolerate what you agree with, only what you disagree with or are inclined to oppose.

It’s not holding a grudge to be clear about what Jane Fonda actually did and the consequences of her actions and her failure to own up to them.

Anger and hostility are not healthy and taking the effort to really *hold* that emotion isn’t something I’d support, but that’s not at all the same as a lifetime boycott of anything involving her. It doesn’t take emotion to do that, it simply takes resolve and *resolve* isn’t self-destructive or unhealthy.
 
Written By: Synova
URL: http://synova.blogspot.com
"there is no need to tolerate what you agree with, only what you disagree with or are inclined to oppos"

You took the words right out of my mouth. There is indeed a difference between ’holding a grudge’ and detesting someone like Aldrich Ames, Benedict Arnold, Jane Fonda, or other moral lepers like Erb. One is principled, the other personal, although there may be some overlap. And of course, I imagine the nation of Israel is chock full or people who hold a grudge. I guess Simon Wiesenthal would be one of them, going after that poor old man Eichman (and others), who was only a clerk following orders. He took it way too seriously and refused to let go. Shame on him.

What joy. A post containing two of my favorite people, the F bit** and the E moral leper. Thanks for ruining my evening, McQ.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Because deep down inside, beneath all that bs about caring and spirituality, you don’t give a s*** about anything but yourself, and miss Jane hasn’t done anything to what you consider to be yours. Ars**ch.
One reason I don’t take your insults seriously, timactual, is because your posts show you don’t know me at all, you have no clue what kind of person I am. And that’s true for most politicians and most people who post — people create imagination-driven understandings of the other person, interpreting their words with assumptions about tone, underlying motives, and the like. The result is that people see others not as they are, but really as a product of their imagination. The more you interact with people in a real, personal way, the less imagination-driven and the more reality-driven the knowledge of that person is. Thus, people who dislike politicians and well known public figures are usually building an imaginary figure to hate — and that’s true when people carry grudges due to net debates.

So in discussions dominated by liberals, conservatives are considered to be jerks, amoral, and dishonest. In discussions dominated by conservatives the opposite is true. Liberals have BDS, and conservatives have similar syndromes involving Reid, Murtha or Kerry. It’s all imagination about personal things due to different perspectives and ones’ own internal imagination. I find it fascinating — and, of course, knowing this makes one immune to insults.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Boris Erb, a thousand times with this:
One reason I don’t take your insults seriously, timactual, is because your posts show you don’t know me at all, you have no clue what kind of person I am.
Well, Boris, he can start with the little endearing things, the meager scrapings of yourself that can be taken away from your posts, like that you’re a chronic liar and an intellectual bedwetter, and then, hopefully, in years to come, he can get to know the deeper spiritualist [sic] Erb. Just give him the time he needs, Boris.

He’ll come around like those of us who have had a decade’s worth of experience with you, who know the authentic Erb within.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Erb spends a lot of time and comment space in multiple threads telling us repeatedly how great and superior he is. I mean, who pops in to multiple threads to just say "I just could never be that way"?

It’s almost like* he’s trying to convince himself.

I suspect* it has something to do with his personality disorder, but I don’t know for sure.


* According to Erb logic, these terms insulate me from actually being accused of making these claims.
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
you take personal grudges way too seriously and refuse to let go. I just could never be that way.
So I’m holding a grudge if I refuse to deal with someone who I don’t feel is honest or decent?
I’m holding a grudge if I won’t buy her products?
If I won’t watch her movies?
Am I holding a grudge against the local dope dealer if I choose not to associate with him?

You know, if we were talking about murdering the woman, or plotting to destroy her, I could understand the idea of ’not being that way’.
I don’t believe for a minute there aren’t people you avoid, or companies you avoid in real life because of something they’ve done.
This is no different.

For those of us with a little love of country, Jane Fonda stepped over the line, and we don’t see any reason to support her, or do business with her.
If that’s a grudge, then, yep, I have one.
Bless you, you Christ like being, for being so much better than the mere mortals who post here.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Erb speaketh:
people create imagination-driven understandings of the other person, interpreting their words with assumptions about tone, underlying motives, and the like.
He means like this:
McQ, you are confirming what I already know — you take personal grudges way too seriously and refuse to let go.
In other news:
Liberals have BDS, and conservatives have similar syndromes involving Reid, Murtha or Kerry.
Uh, I don’t think any of the latter have metastasized to any degree approaching the former. As usual, your mileage may vary, Erb. But a quick Google search would prove you wrong...
 
Written By: Rob
URL: http://
I don’t use the word treason lightly but to me she was she was and is a traitor. If Iva Toguri D’Aquino, aka Tokyo Rose, could be tried for treason and convicted, so could Fonda. Being the a veteran from that time and an America fist type, I refuse to listen to her or watch her movies. How she could ever uncritically support the North Vietnamese, considering how they treated our POWs, is beyond me even if she was against the Vietnam War. She is a worthless piece of garbage.
 
Written By: AMR
URL: http://
You above nationalism, Erb?
 
Written By: Rob
URL: http://
"because your posts show you don’t know me at all,"

And the fact that you do not realize how much of yourself you expose with your constant chattering about yourself on various blogs (including yours) over an extended time frame highlights your stupidity and superficiality. Martin McPhillips is precisely right. So, unless everything you have written here is a fabrication, which would bring me to the same conclusion, you are the kind of person I loathe.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
And the fact that you do not realize how much of yourself you expose with your constant chattering about yourself on various blogs (including yours) over an extended time frame highlights your stupidity and superficiality.
And the fact you feel compelled to react and try to insult shows that you really don’t believe that — otherwise, you’d ignore me. Face it — you can’t really insult me, no matter how hard you try.

You above nationalism, Erb?
I don’t know if "above" is the right term, but I’m definitely not a nationalist. If anything, I’m anti-nationalist.

As for Fonda, well your boycotts sure haven’t hurt her career. And it’s too bad you all missed On Golden Pond, it was a great movie (and she was hot!)
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
"Because deep down inside, beneath all that bs about caring and spirituality, you don’t give a s*** about anything but yourself,..."That’s dead wrong, Tim.

Erb doesn’t have a "self".

Look at it like that, and it starts to come into focus.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
"shows that you really don’t believe that"

You may be in the habit of dissembling, but I don’t say things I don’t believe.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Erb doesn’t have a "self".
Now your attempt at insults is just getting weird, Billy.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Challenge me to go to the record, Erb. I dare you.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
Uh, sure, Billy, — I challenge you to go to the record.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
I’ve had a long day and I’m tired. Inlookers might want to start picking through this search on McPhillips’ posts.

That’ll be a good start.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
Billy, about once every few months you say you’re going to go find old posts and somehow try to use them to "get" me. I always expect better from you than I get. I mean, years of posts, the ability to grab things out of context, and you can never seem to have much of anything even remotely embarrassing to me. In fact, usually the only things that seem that way at first are because of what you say about me, and not the substance of what I post.

So, fine, knock yourself out again. But I have to wonder why you think I’m worth any effort at all.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
"...and you can never seem to have much of anything even remotely embarrassing to me."
To the extent that that’s true, it’s only for the reason that I stated in my first comment here. That doesn’t matter, however. The point is to illustrate how thoroughly rotten you are.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
To the extent that that’s true, it’s only for the reason that I stated in my first comment here. That doesn’t matter, however. The point is to illustrate how thoroughly rotten you are.
The reason you can’t ever actually illustrate that is because you really have no clue what kind of person I am. You’ve built up a fantasy based on exchanges of the past and your imagination. I know you don’t believe that, so go ahead, give whatever kind of litany of insults you wish. It’s your time to waste.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm

 
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