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Hillary and Harry - Denying is easier than reality
Posted by: McQ on Thursday, December 20, 2007

The dynamic duo just keep on denying what is happening in Iraq. One would think that even the most cynical of their supporters would understand that the January talking points are no longer valid in December. Said Clinton:
“As I have said before, I cannot and will not support continuing to fund a flawed and failed strategy in Iraq. I was proud to be a co-sponsor of an amendment offered by Sens. Russ Feingold and Harry Reid that would require the President to safely redeploy U.S. troops from Iraq within nine months after which funding for military operations in Iraq would be terminated.

“Unfortunately, the Senate rejected Sen. Feingold's amendment and instead voted to support funding for the Iraq war without any further limitations. Rather than continue with a flawed and failing policy in Iraq, it is time to change course. Therefore, I cannot support the addition of appropriations for Iraq to the supplemental appropriations bill,” said Clinton.
Of course the Reid-Feingold amendment got clobbered 71-24 and "because the outcome was never in doubt", i.e. she knew Reid and Feingold's amendment was DOA and also knew the appropriations bill would pass (70-25), she didn't bother to vote. The Senate totals also show a slight erosion of Democratic Senate support for the "withdraw now" crowd's agenda.

And Harry Reid (D-Denial)? Well, he's reduced to making things up on the fly as he did in this December 3rd news conference:
"The surge hasn't accomplished its goals," Reid said. "... We're involved, still, in an intractable civil war."
From the guy who had the temerity to call Dubya a "liar".
 
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Previous Comments to this Post 

Comments
Psst - the alternative reality you’re promoting in this blog, and the Weekly Standard and other neo-con mouthpieces are trying to create isn’t being bought by the American public. You ain’t going to spin this into any kind of successful policy McQ, no matter how much you try. You’ll see.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Dr. Erb,
Psst - the alternative reality you’re promoting in this blog, and the Weekly Standard and other neo-con mouthpieces are trying to create isn’t being bought by the American public. You ain’t going to spin this into any kind of successful policy McQ, no matter how much you try. You’ll see.
From your comments it seems as if you are the one wishing to deny reality, since it doesn’t fit into your preconceived notions and theories. Despite all the past bungling that took place in Iraq, it does appear (to many people actually paying attention - which does not include most of the public) that significant positive changes are occuring. The final result in Iraq is still unclear — your ridiculous, constant attempts to pretend you know the future not withstanding. It’s one thing to caution that the postive changes may be temporary, and that Iraq could dissolve into chaos once again, or to point out that there are many underlying problems that haven’t been solved, but it’s quite another to act like the future of Iraq is somehow preordained and that anyone who disagrees with your outlook must be living in a fantasy world. Try sticking to substantive arguments about why you think Iraq can’t turn around, instead of making silly pronouncements that are convincing to no one.

 
Written By: David C.
URL: http://
doesn’t look like hes making any policy point here Erby, only pointing out how ridiculous some Dems look with their rhetoric. To not even vote on the bill, and at the same time tries to tell everyone they are so supportive of running away from Iraq, "re-deployment" haha makes me laugh, call it what it is, at least then id respect you. And this happens on both sides im sure, which is why i have such a lack of respect for those fools in the Congress.
 
Written By: josh b
URL: http://
Public opinion is changing...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071219/pl_nm/iraq_usa_coverage_dc_1
The falloff coincided with a 14 percentage point climb — from 34 to 48 percent — in the number of Americans who believe the military effort in Iraq is going either fairly or very well, according to Pew.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
Now, now Keith, you know Erb doesn’t like facts.

by the way, Erb?

Oh, and incase you think I’ve forgotten (I haven’t, since you refuse to post in that thread any longer):

Where, in either the Just War Theory or in the UN Charter does it say, or even suggest, that the killing of uniformed soldiers of one country by another is not considered casus belli?

You can repost your non-answer here
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Pretty funny, now that Erby is reduced to just stomping his foot and going "LALALALALALALALA I CAN’T HEAR YOU" when you note the way the war is going. Gee, when things were going differently, he was quite loquacious on the subject. Now he just delivers terse statements calling neo-cons liars.

I love his hypocracy.. Mr Erb, where’s one of your long winded posts about civility and political reconciliation blah blah blah.

The war is such a failure that 70 Dems voted to fund it again.

QUAGMIRE! QUAGIMRE! CIVIL WAR! QUAGMIRE!

Iraq?

No......the Dems congressional situation.

HA...............and HA
 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
You’ll see.
Aren’t you forgetting "Nyah Nyah Nyah Nyah"?

 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Note that Boris attempts to bolster his losing case with argumentum ad populum. When the lag in public perception catches up with the turn toward success in Iraq, we’ll hear no more about public perception from him.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Psst - the alternative reality you’re promoting in this blog, and the Weekly Standard and other neo-con mouthpieces are trying to create isn’t being bought by the American public. At least, if you define the American public as those people that I know from my cozy campus, plus those people I meet at social events that don’t disagree with me when I tell them about what a failed war this is. Several times. Oh, and of course, my students. They never disagree with me, which just proves how right I am.

You ain’t going to spin this into any kind of successful policy McQ, no matter how much you try. Nope, not gonna happen. No way, no how. Not possible. Can’t be done. You’ll see. I’ve got lots more ways to deny it if things improve any more.
 
Written By: Ott Scerb
URL: http://cluelessprof.maine.edu
Here’s some polls on Iraq, Keith. I also think things have been going well recently in terms of the military tactics, but that doens’t translate into support for the war, or thinking it a good thing.

In the CNN poll, those favoring the war are 31%, the lowest level ever (done from 34% in June). Opposition is also at its highest, 68%. That’s pretty significant!

The number who think the US is winning has increased to 28% from 26%, and only 11% now think the insurgents are winning (down from 13%), but 59% still say neither side is winning.

The Pew poll you cite doesn’t have an increase in those wanting to keep troops until Iraq is stable (it’s ranged 39% to 41%), and those wanting to bring troops home as soon as possible remains at 54% (the only higher number was 56% in one poll a half a year ago).

So public opinion is NOT shifting on Iraq. The other polls all seem to point to similar numbers.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Boris is suddenly ready with argumentum ad poll.

What happens when the polls change, Boris, to reflect American success in stabilizing Iraq?

Will you search out the polls with even more carefully asked questions?
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Why public opinion isn’t a gauge of what is right, or the right course...

And these numbers are from last month. Be interesting to see when they are updated.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/war_on_terror/war_on_terror_update
The Rasmussen Reports telephone survey also found that 35% of all American voters expect things to get better in Iraq over the next six months while 32% expect the situation to get worse. That’s the first time in years that a plurality has given a positive assessment on the situation in Iraq. The recent increase in optimism is substantial. Just four months ago, in July, 49% of American voters offered a pessimistic assessment of the situation in Iraq and only 23% expected things to get better.
We ought to be doing what is right for America, and Iraq. General McCaffery seems to agree...
A successful withdrawal from Iraq with the emergence of a responsible unified Iraqi nation is vitally important to the security of the American people and the Mid-East. We are clearly no longer on a downward spiral. However, the ultimate outcome is still quite seriously in doubt.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
Why public opinion isn’t a gauge of what is right, or the right course...
If Bush ends up with success in Iraq, he will look very good. After all, he would have stood the course despite public opinion, while the Democrats danced to the poll numbers like cheap whores.


 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Don writes:
[Bush] stood the course despite public opinion
Yes, he did, and with considerable moral clarity. Rare in a politician.

He’s been a stubborn man, when a stubborn man was needed.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Bagdhad Bob, meet Reno Reid.
 
Written By: Jimmy the Dhimmi
URL: http://mooreisfatduhimstoopidilikeanncoulterandchickenfries.ytmnd.com/
He’s been a stubborn man, when a stubborn man was needed.
That’s been his strength..............and also a weakness at times.

That said, if the public is STILL against Iraq, why did 70 Senators vote for the funding?

Trust me Scotty, the Dems have much better polling than you have access to. Look at their actions vis a vis the war. They know what the score is (and right now the score is Bush 10,000 - Congressional Dems 0 when it comes to Iraq. He’s gonna pitch a shutout)
 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
shark on Bush’s stubborn side:
That’s been his strength..............and also a weakness at times.
That’s right. He’s also been a stubborn man when a stubborn man was not needed, as in the case of his immigration bill.

But we cross our fingers, and our hearts, and note that there has not been another 9/11 on his watch. That probably comes partly from luck, partly from Bush’s stubborn streak, and then the essential part, Bush’s flat backchannel offer to destroy any enemy capital even indirectly linked to another 9/11.

He bends arms back to the breaking point; sometimes he breaks them.

But let yours eyes slide onto that pathetic dink Harry Reid, and you’ll see the real threat to America’s future, even when that threat grows balls the size of Hillary Clinton’s.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
I don’t get it prof, why does Congress and the Senate keep ignoring the will of the American people?

I mean, your polls make it quite clear!
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Bagdhad Bob, meet Reno Reid.
As a Reno resident, I resent you pinning Reid on my fair city. Reno’s got brothels not far outside the city limits, it’s much too classy for politicians. Reid’s from Searchlight, a fact which he boasted throughout his 2004 campaign.

Seriously, northern Nevada has no love for Harry Reid; it’s Clark County that voted for him.
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://
Whoever the Republican presidential nominee is, has to hang this "flawed strategy" crap right around the neck of the Democrat like Bush did to Kerry with his "I voted for the $87 billion, before I voted against it" quote.

Let us watch the Dems squirm for another election. I love it.

Oh, and let’s hang the "do nothing Congress" around the Dems’ necks as well. Who can ask for such a two-fer?
 
Written By: James Marsden
URL: http://
I wonder if Hillary not voting on this is anything like Obama voting present on those critical issues a few years ago.

Nah, that was different.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Yet another example of US attrocities.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Oh Don, if we hadn’t been in Iraq Al-queda wouldn’t have been able to do these things!

They would have been done in a nicer, larger complex, under direction of the Hussein government.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
the alternative reality you’re promoting in this blog, and the Weekly Standard and other neo-con mouthpieces are trying to create isn’t being bought by the American public.
That may be due in part to the dramatic drop in coverage of Iraq from the Green Zone Brigade that is our press corp. Even you should be able to acknowledge this to us neocons...

Wait a sec, can I be a CardCarrying Neocon and a paid-by-KKKarlRove official flack? I keep forgetting who’s signing my check... I should be awash in greenbacks by now... I think I’m doing it wrong.
 
Written By: Rob
URL: http://
the alternative reality you’re promoting
Just hang in there with Reid and Pelosi .. losers all.
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
"My hope would be we start looking at real solutions instead of the dichotomy of cut funding versus stay forever," said Rep. Brian Baird (D-Wash.), who had a change of heart this fall after visiting Iraq and realizing the military surge was working.
Reid, with all the charm of a funeral director, and Pelosi, a temporally-challenged cheerleader, need to get with it.
The fight, against the war over who’s withdraw timetable is used, is "lost".
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
Hmmm, maybe Pelosi and Senator Reid (D-Denial) ought to take a trip to Iraq. Seems to me, everyone who’s been there recognizes that there are positive changes being made there, and come back with a much more balanced view.

Of course, that could just be the CIA tampering with their brain while they’re over there.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
Why public opinion isn’t a gauge of what is right, or the right course.
Of course not, but I was responding to your statement:
Public opinion is changing...
By noting that it isn’t changing in terms of whether or not the war was a good idea, or if we should stay there. The Iraq syndrome has already begun, for better or worse.

I do think President Bush’s foreign policy has improved, so in that sense my opinion is changing too — but not in terms of believing Iraq was worth it, or that we should stay much longer. In fact, if it’s true that civil unrest is down, then the dire warnings of genocide if we leave seem to be less likely, making leaving a more credible option.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm

 
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