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Posted by: Jon Henke on Saturday, March 29, 2008

Last month, MyDD's Todd Beeton wrote an exceptionally dumb post arguing that the Left should go after McCain for admitting to being superstitious. At the time, I pointed out that Hillary Clinton had also repeatedly said she was superstitious. Todd Beeton had endorsed Hillary Clinton.

So, you know, good luck with that line of attack.

Today, however, another point occurs to me. Todd Beeton called McCain's superstition "creepy" and said it would make people believe McCain would make "decisions based on superstition rather than on sound judgment."

Beeton wrote this on MyDD, which was started by Jerome Armstrong "as an astrological tabloid, forcasting the ups and downs of the stock market based upon the stars."

Beeton didn't think that line of attack through very well.
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Previous Comments to this Post 

There is nothing wrong with being superstitious.

Ronald Reagan’s schedule was vetted through the First Familiy’s Personal Astrologer.

Many people believed in Purgatory for the less than fully wicked until the Vatican revealed they were just kidding.
Written By: John Stanley
URL: http://
John - You mean Limbo, not Purgatory, correct?
Written By: Bryan Pick
I meant Purgatory.


Not to be confused with

The Limbo, a 60’s dance all the rave in the Chiropractic Industry.
Written By: John Stanley
URL: http://
Great site!

Would you like a Link Exchange with The Internet Radio Network? At the IRN you can listen to over 70 of America’s top Talk Shows via Free Streaming Audio! In addition you can email the President, VP and Congressional Leaders!!
Written By: Steve
until the Vatican revealed they were just kidding
Purgatory is established Catholic doctrine. You’re either trolling or highly misinformed if you think the Catholic Church has reversed itself.

Maybe you’re confused about the difference between Catholic doctrine and the Protestant Reformation?
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
The entire existence of the Catholic Church is based on Catholic doctrine.
The Reformation is based on the existence of Catholic Dogma. No Catholics, no Protestants.

How the One True Church, God’s Tree of Life for God’s favorite species, me, can actually be one of the Tree’s branches is beyond preposterous to rational thinking.

Is God the Ultimate Jokester, deluding millions for centuries, until He allows to spring forth the One, True Religion ... Protestantism, or Islam, or Latter Day Saints or whatever is next?

I could have more accurately described Benedict’s purging of Purgatory for some, (actually, a infallable revelation from god Himself, as this is a matter of Faith and Morals), that Purgatory will not exist for those who visit Lourdes.

Doesn’t this stuff really belong on a Saturday Night Live Skit, which every one knows is made up, than as a Certain Reality for True Believers?

What’s a troll ?

Written By: John Stanley
URL: http://
John, the point is that the Vatican has not "revealed they were just kidding" in regards to purgatory.

Indulgences have always been a method of reducing time in purgatory according to doctrine. The fact that Pope Benedict introduced another indulgence does nothing to change the original teaching.

Your statement was 100% incorrect. You obviously have no understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches, which is why I provided (twice now) the link to the exact doctrine on purgatory.

someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages
Fits your anti-Catholic slander within this thread perfectly, doesn’t it?
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
(actually, a infallable revelation from god Himself, as this is a matter of Faith and Morals),
It’s only considered infallible by the Catholic Church if the Pope speaks ex cathedra. That’s only happened once, back in the 1800s.

By the way, the link you provided doesn’t say that the Pope has declared that Purgatory doesn’t exist.
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://
I could have more accurately described Benedict’s purging of Purgatory for some...that Purgatory will not exist for those who visit Lourdes.
Would you likewise use that logic to state that "Hell does not exist for those that accept Jesus as Savior?"

Just because the doctrine teaches that not everyone will spend the same amount of time in Purgatory, or that not everyone will even visit Purgatory, doesn’t mean that the Church doesn’t teach its existence.

Before you bother to spew more "information" about Catholic teaching, make an effort to educate yourself on what they actually teach.
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Let the reader be aware that the Faithful "responding"

1- retract the positing that I erred in calling Purgatory - Purgatory... that I must have meant Limbo. You see in our conversation Limbo has now vanished, and we are speaking of Purgatory. So much for my lesson on Limbo.

2- want to discuss an unproven mental construct named Purgatory ... in the vein of medieval dialogues about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, instead of the ludicrous postulation that God, director of all things, let the One True Religion arise as a derivitive of an existing, false religion or religions. If God did not ket that happen, then the very first religion must be the one True Religion.

It is also inconceivable that a god would let murderers and poisoners become "His Vicar on Earth".

My believing friend, I was serving 6AM weekday Mass at the age of 10 in NYC, in the middle of winter.

I had 12 years of nuns and Christian Brothers (almost all honorable, well-intentioned humans) repeating dogma over and over.

And Hell does not exist for all those in heaven. How can the awareness of everlasting, non-consuming fire of a loved one in hell be allowed? That awareness being present is counter to the very concept of everlasting bliss.

Religion and religious Holy Written Revelations (aka God dictates a book or a collection of books) are full of so many contradictions that they cannot be taken as factual by any rational person without a "horse" in the religion game.

The time has arrived for reasonable, fact-based people to no longer indulge the religious fantasies and dogma of religions attempting domination around our planet. Enough is enough.

Written By: John Stanley
URL: http://
John -
Whether or not you consider any religious beliefs to be superstition is your business. I’m not trying to "prove" (nor even provide evidence for) the existence of a transcendent state of being.

I was familiar with the Church’s position on Limbo but had never heard anything suggesting that the Church was "just kidding" (or anything near to that effect) about Purgatory. So I asked a reasonable question, one that I didn’t expect would launch this much discussion, so far from the topic of Jon’s post.

I wasn’t really sure why you dragged that in here in the first place, but somehow this crossed my mind upon my return:
"A fanatic is one who can’t change his mind and won’t change the subject."
- Winston Churchill
You’re a disaffected (former) Catholic who’s joined the swelling ranks of atheists-in-high-dudgeon. We get it. Can we move on now?
Written By: Bryan Pick
Sure, let us agree to dis-engage.

But accussing me of "spewing", and of being a fanatic, reveals the extent of the intellectual pain an open discussion of ANYONE’S religious dogma causes them.

Although I heard 12 years of R.C. Dogma, participated in most of the Rituals, there was always a part of my mind which was always asking, "How can this BE?" My gaining adulthood, both physically and mentally, resulted in who I am now ... an agent free of anyone’s god.

The fact is my innate drive for reality caused me to question almost all DOGMA, I do not consider myself "Disaffected" from Catholicism, but having become a fully actualized Homo Sapiens.

Some humans search for Reality.
Some humans long and search for Certainity.

Given the very definition of the Quantum Nature of our existence, the search for Certainity is not the way I chose to spend they very finite instance of the speck of time I have chaotically, and indifferently, been gifted.

Finally, I wish you luck on your search for Reality, if you are able to break the surly bonds of the Dogma of Revealed Truths which were very likely installed in your awareness at a very impressionable age.

Written By: John Stanley
URL: http://
The fact is my innate drive for reality caused me to question almost all DOGMA
That sounds like a good plan. I have no problem with that as long as you get the dogma correct.
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
I have linguistically observed that you do indeed have the DNA for Certain-Hood.

This is not a slam, but I have classified, perhaps for my own logical needs, a new species, heretofore unremarked in the scientific literature.

While the species Homo sapiens refers to a thinking human, presumably thinking about Reality, there exists among the Homo s. a species I call the Homo f.
(Homo faithiens). For the Homo f., reasoning to logical, wherever the facts may lead conclusions has been replaced by trying to logically explain self-contradictory Revelations from 2,000 years ago. What a waste of mental energy. I believe countless problems of humanity have lain dormant as the Homo faithiens try to prove a secular universe enchanted with supernatural beings, in whose image I have been created.

Just as a "reality check", be aware that many in your cult, perhaps more learned in dogma than you may or may not be, can hold vastly different certitudes based on your self-same Holy Writ as those which prance in your consciousness. If that were not the case, there would be no need for ex-communication.

I beware all those whose Certainty rests on dictated and scribed revelations. Of course I include Scientology, Islam, and all the rest of Holy Dictation-based religions. (I find it more than curious that a number of these dictations were made to illiterate members of the species.)

I could respect no creator whose Grand Scheme of Life consists of one species staying alive by eating another living creature. What the "Grand Designer" did for flowers and trees, he could not do for that which was made in His image.

Pathethic, observed from any magisteria.

Written By: John Stanley
URL: http://
John -

"Dis-engaging" generally doesn’t mean firing off another eight sentences telling your interlocutor that he’s deluded.

It doesn’t pain me to discuss religious dogma, or to hear anyone question any particular dogma. I’m not that insecure. I quoted Churchill because, out of nowhere, you decided to make this about your brand of atheism.

For someone who started out saying, "There is nothing wrong with being superstitious," you sure moved quickly to mocking the religious and saying that "[t]he time has arrived for reasonable, fact-based people to no longer indulge the religious fantasies and dogma of religions attempting domination around our planet. Enough is enough."
The fact is my innate drive for reality caused me to question almost all DOGMA, I do not consider myself "Disaffected" from Catholicism, but having become a fully actualized Homo Sapiens.
Wow. It must feel pretty great to have distinguished yourself from billions of your fellow human beings by being born with that drive for reality that they lack. You were born into the club of reasonable, fact-based people. Congratulations, and thank you for being so thoroughly condescending to the religious people here who you ostensibly want to agree with you.

Phrase it however you want, but you are a disaffected former Catholic. You clearly resent the Church and have rebelled against what was once presented to you as an authority.

But this is all tangential; my first and last point here is, like JWG said: just make sure you get the dogma right before you presume to preach against it.
Written By: Bryan Pick
A new word for the surprised:


The operating motif of The Daily Show.
The Colbert Report.

I use it a lot. It helps to disarm the reader from immediate clues that I am not "one of them"

Perhaps it (the come-hither start) is more apparent to me than to first timers. I can see how that can happen.

For the record then, the Pope said Purgatory, and the parameters associated with Purgatory, do not apply to you if you visit certain places on the planet during a certain window of time. (Kind of like a Star Trek episode.) These are favored places by the ALmighty, and since He doesn’t know what is in your heart, he will be handing out Pass Purgatory tickets if you are viewed visiting one of these places.

Tata for now.

Written By: John Stanley
URL: http://
"For the record then, the Pope said..."
You are now officially a liar rather than just being possibly ignorant. He did not say nor imply anything of the sort, and you STILL have no idea what the Catholic Church teaches in regards to purgatory and indulgences (despite my repeatedly linking to the official doctrine). Is reading that difficult for you?

It shouldn’t be that hard to understand what Catholic doctrine teaches about avoiding or shortening time in purgatory since it’s explained point-by-point.

Secondly, I’m not sure how you can claim anything about my religious beliefs since I have not said a word about them.
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Twas not a "lie" at all. I simply removed the Holy "Say" from the Holy See and delivered the Holy Say in plain English.
For devout Catholics fearful of a long stint in purgatory — a vast metaphysical holding area where the faithful believe they will go to be "purified" prior to their admittance to heaven — the Pope had some encouraging news this week: there’s an easier way.

Pope Benedict XVI has decreed that Catholics can cut short their future purgatory stays by visiting a holy shrine in Lourdes, France, a site where believers say the Virgin Mary appeared to a shephardess in 1858. Catholic pilgrims who visit Lourdes from now through next year, which will mark the 150th anniversary of the miracle claim, will receive an "indulgence" from the Pope, which he says will speed the trip to heaven.

"The door for indulgences is not always open, though, and for years after the Vatican Council reforms of the 1960s, they were rarely offered — until 2000, when Pope John Paul II started using them to attract pilgrims to World Youth Day," reports the New York Times’ Mike Nizza. "The pilgrimage, which must be made in the next year, can be accomplished using Vatican charter flights that began over the summer."

For Catholics not in a position to jaunt off to France, prayer at other select sites during a ten-day span in February may also do the trick. According to the BBC, the Pope indicated that "believers who prayed at places of worship dedicated to Our Lady of Lourdes from 2-11 February next year — or who were unable to make the journey — would also be able to receive indulgences."

"The spirit always has to be one of trust in Christ and trust in the words of Christ to his apostles," Father Jonathan Morris, a priest, told the BBC. "And those words were this: ’What you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven; and what you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.’ If those words are true, and if the Pope understands them correctly, indulgences really do work."

In 1998, Pope John Paul II announced that Catholic penitents would receive indulgences for such good deeds as quitting smoking, abstaining from alcohol, or performing a charitable act. "Indulgences are an ancient form of church-granted amnesty from certain forms of punishment, in this life or hereafter, for sin," the Times reported then. "The medieval church sold indulgences, a practice that drove Martin Luther to rebel, beginning the Reformation. They remain a source of theological debate between Protestants and Catholics..."
Written By: John Stanley
URL: http://
You are lying:

The following statements made by you are wrong as I have pointed out and cited the actual dogma repeatedly:
the Pope said Purgatory ... do not apply to you if you visit certain places
The Pope added an indulgence that may shorten a person’s time in purgatory according to Church doctrine. It was nothing new or contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

In other words, the "rules" of Purgatory (according to the Catholic Church) STILL apply in EVERY way that they have ALWAYS applied. There have always been indulgences that affect purgatory.
since He doesn’t know what is in your heart
This is in direct contradiction to the teachings of the Catholic Church and the "rules" of indulgences.

Going to Lourdes is meaningless (according to Church teaching that I cited) unless other actions are also followed — including that the person be corde saltem contrito (contrite of heart).

What you are claiming about dogma continues to be 100% incorrect in regards to what the Catholic Church teaches.

Since I have repeatedly pointed you to the actual dogma, you can only be lying when you continue to make claims about the Catholic Church that are untrue.
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
So much to do, so little time.

(actually, a infallable revelation from god Himself, as this is a matter of Faith and Morals),
It’s only considered infallible by the Catholic Church if the Pope speaks ex cathedra. That’s only happened once, back in the 1800s.

By the way, the link you provided doesn’t say that the Pope has declared that Purgatory doesn’t exist.

Written By: Steverino
If Steverino is correct, (and it does ring some church bells from long ago) the the current pope MAY BE fallible in doling out "Pass Purgatory" cards, if he is NOT speaking Ex-Cathedra. Maybe there is more time off for the good behavior than he posits, maybe less, maybe none. It’s possible from a human speaking from the Fallible Zone.

(Steverino was a nickname for Steve Allen. The famous line about Steve Allen is:
"Steve Allen wrote over 4,000 songs. Name two." But he was a non-believer in the non-real. Too bad he is gone so quickly.)

By the way, I was really disappointed in the way The Creator let Pope John Paul turn into a human pretzel before passing onto to his final reward. I thought he deserved better. My mother speaks Polish, and I always held a certain fondness for him. Moreso so than other popes with whom I am familiar, he was an authentic human being. Just a century behind the world’s time, but a nice man nonetheless.
Written By: John Stanley
URL: http://

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