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Wright a former Muslim? OK, I missed that first time through ...
Posted by: McQ on Tuesday, April 08, 2008

I read this TNR article quite some time back as Obama was beginning to emerge as a very serious candidate. I was interested in the fact that both he and Hillary had a "Saul Alinsky" connection. And it was in this article that I found out why he joined a church in Chicago (to aid his community organizing). What I missed completely, at the time, was a line about Jeremiah Wright that sort of brings everything into the proper focus. Of course, at the time I read the article, by Ryan Lizza, Wright wasn't the subject of any scrutiny:
From Wright and others, Obama learned that part of his problem as an organizer was that he was trying to build a confederation of churches but wasn't showing up in the pews on Sunday. When pastors asked him the inevitable questions about his own spiritual life, Obama would duck them uncomfortably. A Reverend Philips put the problem to him squarely when he learned that Obama didn't attend services. "It might help your mission if you had a church home," he told Obama. "It doesn't matter where, really. What you're asking from pastors requires us to set aside some of our more priestly concerns in favor of prophesy. That requires a good deal of faith on our part. It makes us want to know just where you're getting yours from."

After many lectures like this, Obama decided to take a second look at Wright's church. Older pastors warned him that Trinity was for "Buppies"—black urban professionals—and didn't have enough street cred. But Wright was a former Muslim and black nationalist who had studied at Howard and Chicago, and Trinity's guiding principles—what the church calls the "Black Value System"—included a "Disavowal of the Pursuit of Middleclassness.'"

The crosscurrents appealed to Obama. He came to believe that the church could not only compensate for the limitations of Alinsky-style organizing but could help answer the nagging identity problem he had come to Chicago to solve. "It was a powerful program, this cultural community," he wrote, "one more pliant than simple nationalism, more sustaining than my own brand of organizing."
Now obviously, the reference here is to Louis Farrakhan's "Nation of Islam", not the Muslim faith everywhere else in the world. So suddenly all of the deference to Farrakhan makes sense. And that coupled with the black nationalism explains the racist rants from the pulpit.

And notice what Lizza contends - that the church he chose was a means to "help answer the nagging identity problem he had come to Chicago to solve." How in the world can that be so unless you buy into what the church believes in?

Now, again, it is TNR and we've certainly had issues with that bunch so take it with a grain of salt if you wish, but it sure seems to connect some dots.

Couple it with this and you really end up scratching your head:
In yesterday's conversation with Time's Joe Klein I noted that when then Illinois State Senator Barack Obama ran against incumbent Congressman Bobby Rush in the 2000 Democratic primary for the 1st Congressional District, Obama announced there wasn't much difference between the two candidates when it came to beliefs.

"I don't think there are a lot of ideological differences," Obama declared after a television debate between Rush, himself and a third candidate Donne Trotter.
Anyone know who Bobby Rush is? Well, from 1963 to 1968, was a co-founder of the Illinois chapter of the Black Panther Party. Now, you take Obama's ideological declaration any way you wish, but you have to assume he meant what he said.

And then there's Obama acquaintance with Bill "I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough" Ayers, formerly of the ultra-radical Weather Underground.

You know, taken singly, you can say, "eh, so he knew so-and-so, no biggie". But when you begin to put them side-by-side, you begin to think, "aren't there a few too many "coincidences" here?"

I'm sorry but I find all of these 'coincidences' to be something which should be looked into much more closely than they are. A disciple of Saul Alinsky, a connection to black nationalism and the beliefs of the Nation of Islam (through his pastor and church), a self-declared ideological sameness with a former member of the Black Panther Party and "friend" of a violent former member of the Weather Underground?

Time for the MSM to do a little digging and Obama to do a lot more explaining than he's had to do to this point.
_________

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"Disavowal of the Pursuit of Middleclassness"

Does that mean what I think it means? Like not trying to get an education, work hard, or generally try to better yourself and your family?
 
Written By: jpm100
URL: http://
I will say that Wright has a good idea, he has disavowed "Middleclassness". He has moved into a 1.6 million dollar home...see he bypassed Middleclassness and moved (W)right onto UPPER-Middleclassness.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
No doubt, the guy who co-founded the Illinois chapter of the Black Panther Party changed between ’68 and 2000. I mean, that’s over 30 years, who cares what the guy did back in ’68. No Longer Relevent.

Of course, by contrast, Kerry’s heroic actions in ’68 should have made him president in 2004. And Bush’s ANG service-ducking in the ’70s should have disqualed him.

You just need to look at all this through the right lens . . .
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
The other point is that bringing up Wright’s Nation of Islam roots isn’t fair. You are just implying that Obama is really Muslim.

You should talk about something of substance, instead of flinging around barely concealed racist remarks.

Let’s talk about Obama’s plan to save the world, sing kumbaya, and show deference to third world dictators.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
jpm100 — No, it means not leaving the ’hood, physically or mentally, and continuing to dedicate yourself to the black community, particularly if you have the resources to better yourself and live as a middle-class American who happens to be black. It also includes a toxic vision of America as an oppressor state, preying upon blacks, murdering them, putting them in concentration camps and inspiring them to murder each other.

It’s some of the most toxic material on the Trinity church website.
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the "talented tenth" of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor’s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of "we" and "they" instead of "us".

So, while it is permissible to chase "middle-incomeness" with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method-the psychological entrapment of Black
"middleclassness": If we avoid the snare, we will also diminish our "voluntary"
contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright, the leadership, resourcefulness, and example of their own talented persons

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%20value%20system.pdf
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
It also includes a toxic vision of America as an oppressor state
When I read this in it’s entirety, therefore in context, I see recommnedations of how to live one’s life that are very conservative. That they are couched in the language of overcoming oppression should only be shocking the most sheltered among us.
The Black Value System
These Black Ethics must be taught and exampled in homes, churches, nurseries and
schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect the following concepts:

Commitment of God
“The God of our weary years” will give us the strength to give up prayerful passivism and become Black Christian Activist, soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankind.

Commitment to the Black Community
The highest level of achievement for any Black person must be a contribution of
substance to the strength and continuity of the Black of the Black Community.

Commitment to the Black FamilyThe Black family circle must generate strength, stability, and love despite the uncertainty of externals, because these characteristics are required if the developing person is to withstand warping by our racist competitive society.
Those Blacks who are blessed with membership in a strong family unit must reach out and expand that blessing to the less fortunate, especially to the children.

Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
We must forswear anti-intellectualism. Continued survival demands that each Black Person be developed to the utmost of his/her mental potential despite the inadequacies of the formal education process. “Real education” fosters understanding of ourselves as well as every aspect of our environment. Also it develops within us the ability to fashion concepts and tools for better utilization of our resources, and more effective solutions to our problems. Since the majority of Blacks have been denied such learning, Black Education must include elements that provide high school graduates with marketable
skills, a trade or qualifications for apprenticeships, or proper preparation for college. Basic education for all Blacks should include Mathematics, Science, Logic, General Semantics, Participative Politics, Economics and Finance, and the Care and Nurture of Black minds. To the extent that we individually reach for, even strain for excellence, we increase, geometrically, the value and resourcefulness of the Black Community. We must recognize the relativity of one’s best: this year’s best can be bettered next year. Such is
the language of growth and development. We must seek to excel in every endeavor.

Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
“It is becoming harder to find qualified people to work in Chicago” Whether this is true or not, it represents one of the many reasons given by businesses and industries for deserting the Chicago area. We must realize that a location with good facilities, adequate transportation and reputation for producing skilled workers will attract industry. We are in competition with other cities, states, and nations for jobs. High productivity must be a goal of the Black workforce.

Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model for Black Youth.

Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness”
Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the “talented tenth” of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor’s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:
Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.
Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.
Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of “we” and “they” instead of “us”.
So, while it is permissible to chase “middle-incomeness” with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method-the psychological entrapment of Black
“middleclassness”: If we avoid the snare, we will also diminish our “voluntary”
contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright, the leadership, resourcefulness, and example of their own talented persons.

Pledge to Make the Fruits of All Developing and Acquired Skills Available to the Black community

Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions.

Pledge Allegiance to all Black Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace The Black Value System.

Personal Commitment to Embracement of the Black Value System - to Measure the
Worth and Validity of All Activity in Terms of Positive Contributions to the General Welfare of the Black Community and the Advancement of Black People towards Freedom.
You people are all agog about how it is framed, and yet you miss the entire point.

I am sure you are all intellectually capable of getting the point, but I guess it’s too much fun for you to be so intentionally obtuse about a very positive force.

 
Written By: Captin Sarcastic
URL: http://
Dude, did you really just say that Black Amaerican Muslims are not real muslims?!? Allow me to suggest that you take this opportunity to revise and clarify that remark.
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
In context, CPT, it is somewhat less hostile to typical midwestern values of hard work, family and spirituality than the part about "middleclassness". But it seems to be a touch exclusive for a Christian Community.

Christ mixed with the rich, the poor, the sinner and the beggar. He expected His followers to do the same, and his teachings and parables emphasized inclusiveness, not exclusiveness.

Examples: His contacts with the woman caught in adultry, the leper, the blind man, the woman with hemorrhages, the Samaritan woman at the well, the twelve apostles; and the parables of the prodigal son and the good Samaritan.

The Pharisees didn’t like that. They scolded, "He eats with tax collectors and sinners".

But, the Great Commission commands "...go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every living Creature." Not just to black or white people, Jews or Gentiles, but to all.

Any Christian church that doesn’t welcome all of God’s children is violating some of Christ’s most basic teachings, IMHO.
 
Written By: vnjagvet
URL: http://www.yargb.blogspot.com
"I see recommnedations of how to live one’s life that are very conservative."

Me too. Wright is also correct in that the Volk must remain united and ever vigilant against those who would conspire, through their domination of financial institutions etc., to keep them from fulfilling their destiny.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Me too. Wright is also correct in that the Volk must remain united and ever vigilant against those who would conspire, through their domination of financial institutions etc., to keep them from fulfilling their destiny.
This is priceless, like calling the Jews Nazi’s.

To your credit, I think you are just pulling my leg.
Any Christian church that doesn’t welcome all of God’s children is violating some of Christ’s most basic teachings, IMHO.
Everyone is welcomed at UCC, and there are many white Christians at any given service (most of them reporters these days). The value system does not exclude whites, it was created as a result of being excluded and isolated BY whites. It was a way of saying we exist, we are not going to hate ourselves because you hate us, we are going to be proud of what we are in spite of that hatred.
Wright a former Muslim?
Oh, and this. This extremely unlikely.

There just wasn’t time.

Born September 22, 1941 (his father was a Baptist Minister)

From 1959 to 1961, Wright attended Virginia Union University,[1] in Richmond.

Inspired by President John F. Kennedy’s 1961 challenge to "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country," Wright gave up his student deferment, left college and joined the United States Marine Corps and became part of the 2nd Marine Division with the rank of private first class.

So he joined the Marines at 19... volunteered... no way he was a Muslim then, right?

In 1963, after two years of service, Wright then transferred to the United States Navy and entered the Corpsman School at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, where he graduated as valedictorian.[6] Having excelled in corpsman school, Wright was then trained as a cardiopulmonary technician at the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Maryland where he graduated as salutatorian.[6] Wright was assigned as part of the medical team charged with care of President Lyndon B. Johnson’s (see photo of Wright caring for Johnson after his 1966 surgery). Before leaving the position in 1967, the White House awarded Wright three letters of commendation.[7][8][9]

So he left the Corp in 1967 at age 25, very unlikely for him to have been Muslim during this time.

In 1967 Wright enrolled at Howard University in Washington, D.C., where he earned a bachelor’s degree in 1968 and a master’s degree in English in 1969.

He also earned a master’s degree from the University of Chicago Divinity School.

Wright became pastor of the Trinity United Church of Christ, Chicago on March 1, 1972

So, between his Master at University of Chicago Divinity School (1970?, 1971?), and his assignment as Pastor at UCC in 1972, ya think he strayed off ther reservation and spent some time with the Nation of Islam?

Oh, and by the way, a big part of the reason for the existence of a black Christian church was because of the Nation of Islam. The Nation of Islam WAS very Afri-centric, speaking to the black experience, and recruiting young black Americans in droves. Wright and others saw the need for a Christian church that spoke to black people in order to bring them to Christ, and prevent this mass conversion to Islam. Without people like Wright, we might have a much angrier, 30 million large, Nation of Islam in America.

But hey, you don’t have to thank him, just go on and get medievel on him for being associated with a candidate you don’t like.


 
Written By: Captin Sarcastic
URL: http://
Dude, did you really just say that Black Amaerican Muslims are not real muslims?!?
Most Muslims do not accept the Nation of Isalm as a true part of the Muslim faith.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
When I read this in it’s entirety, therefore in context, I see recommnedations of how to live one’s life that are very conservative.
So, you’re saying that you’re just too stupid to understand that this sort of thing is the stuff of cults:
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the "talented tenth" of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor’s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:

Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of "we" and "they" instead of "us".

So, while it is permissible to chase "middle-incomeness" with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method-the psychological entrapment of Black "middleclassness": If we avoid the snare, we will also diminish our "voluntary" contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright, the leadership, resourcefulness, and example of their own talented persons

http://www.tucc.org/scholarship_pdf/black%20value%20system.pdf
Obama belongs to a racist, black supremacist cult, and one can assume that after 20 years there, he can’t back out now. It is also the legitimate default postion that Obama, by his act of staying with the church, is committed to its "black values system," inclusive of the cult paranoia.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Oh, and this. This extremely unlikely.
It may be, but then I assume Lizza based his claim on something. Would love to see a clarification or some form of proof, but regardless, the claim is out there.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Wright and others saw the need for a Christian church that spoke to black people in order to bring them to Christ, and prevent this mass conversion to Islam. Without people like Wright, we might have a much angrier, 30 million large, Nation of Islam in America.
Typical white liberal view of American blacks: the belief that they would join NOI if they didn’t have a racist "Christian" cult to join.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Most Muslims do not accept the Nation of Isalm as a true part of the Muslim faith.
That’s true for the simple reason that it has next to nothing to do with traditional Islam. It, like the "black theology" of Wright, is the foundation of a racialist, black supremacist cult. It’s no wonder that Wright and Farrakhan get along; they have a lot in common.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
but regardless, the claim is out there.
Well, I guess that depends on how you define "Out there’, Bruce.
For example, I note that the article is no longer on TNR’s site, though the cause of it not being there is a question... simple space and date roll-off requirements, or was it removed because it’s content would prove a problem to a TNR already embroiled in charges of making stuff up, or because it wold prove a problem to a Democrat becoming presdient? Lizza does have a rep of being as warm as subhumanly possible to the Clintons, so that’s a possiblity, too. I also note that Lizza is no longer with TNR, having moved to The new Yorker sometime in 07, so there’s another possible reason for the post removed...

I don’t know the answer.

Martin:
That’s true for the simple reason that it has next to nothing to do with traditional Islam. It, like the "black theology" of Wright, is the foundation of a racialist, black supremacist cult. It’s no wonder that Wright and Farrakhan get along; they have a lot in common.
Indeed, it seems to me...and I’ve remarked on this before... that Wright’s ’Christianity’ isn’t real Christianity, either.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
found out why he joined a church in Chicago (to aid his community organizing).
The Chistopher Hicthens’ piece answered that as well by quoting from Obama’s book.
In these pages, Sen. Obama is telling us that he doesn’t really have any profound religious belief, but that in his early Chicago days he felt he needed to acquire some spiritual "street cred."
He was in search of "street cred"

To put everything in perspective, you have to remember that while Obama is an African and an American, he really doesn’t have the "Black Experience" of your (get ready for this) "typical Afro-American."

I see the whole Trinity experience as an attempt to come to understand the "Black Experience" that he was never part of, call it Black 101. I’m not really sure if the Christian side of things in the church really ever mattered. He was there as an apprentice to Rev. Wright in how to huckster the Black community. Afterall, with the Rev. Wright now moving to a $1.6 million home in a "gated" predominately white community, what ties did/does the Rev. Wright really cherish ?
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
Delightful as this whole Wright d’splosion is, Greg Ransom is working something that I hadn’t seen yet and which I think is at least as important.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
For example, I note that the article is no longer on TNR’s site...
I don’t think that’s true ... I just hit the link above and there it is.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
So, considering it’s TNR, I take it Erb is going to believe this piece in it’s entirety, eh?
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Well, the pro-Obama posters here have convinced me: Obama and everyone he’s ever associated with is a pro-freedom individualist. Phew—my anxiety that Obama might be just another State-shtupping collectivist mired in Social Gsopel superstition and ethnic-identity politics are now almost completely relieved! They’ll be totally gone when no doubt he chooses Ron Paul as his running mate.
 
Written By: Bilwick
URL: http://
Eric:
it seems to me...and I’ve remarked on this before... that Wright’s ’Christianity’ isn’t real Christianity, either.
Wright’s "Christianity" has about as much to do with Christianity as the Klan’s or the Christianity of the Christian Identity movement. That’s the "theological" company of "black theology."

Neo:
He was in search of "street cred"....He was there as an apprentice to Rev. Wright in how to huckster the Black community.
My problem with the "Obama belonged to the racist church because he’s a hustler" interpretation is that a true hustler would have used the church to get started and then dumped it when he needed to start building his credibility with a broader public.

Instead, Obama has stayed with Wright’s cult and tried the "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes" method for unburdening himself of the cult’s reality.

My reaction is to take his membership at face value and leave it at that: He has bought into the teachings of the cult and is simply talking his way around it. Why do I owe Obama any benefit of the doubt? He wants to be President of the United States. Am I supposed to cut him slack on this because he’s black?
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Bobby Rush has been a fixture in Chicago politics for years. He once was an outsider but has been a cog in Chicago Machine politics in his post-Black Panther era. Obama is a part of that same Machine; the difference is he got fast-tracked (much to the chagrin of political veterans such as Rush) by the established Democratic apparatus (namely Emil Jones). People outside of Chicago supporting Obama have no idea what they are getting into.
 
Written By: the wolf
URL: http://
Beck:
Delightful as this whole Wright d’splosion is, Greg Ransom is working something that I hadn’t seen yet and which I think is at least as important.
Yes, and there’s no contradiction between Ransom’s findings and "black theology." They are in convergence. The former helps to explain the presence of the latter in Obama’s background.

Back in the early ’90s I used to "take in the laundry," so to speak, helping graduate students get their term papers in order. I actually miss doing that because of the fascinating people I met. But I had a whole contingent of African and third-world students who came to me for rewrites and editing from the New School.

I was shocked at how their courses and papers were often discursions on Marxist economic theory. The Soviet Union had just collapsed and I used to say to them, "doesn’t anyone over at the New School read the newspapers?"
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Hey, I just read a quote from Michelle Obama in THE CHARLOTTE OBSERVER online. Speaking to a group of women (who were no doubt bitten with the "what can government do to fix my life?" bug), Mrs. O stated that in order to pay for things like universal health care, "someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so someone else can have more." Reading this, two thoughts occurred to me:

(1) How Hillaryesque it is! ("We’re going to take things away from you for your own good."—HC). So why all the fighting? Can’t those two crazy socialist kids just get along?

(2) Now that the pro-Obama posters here have conclusively shown that those of us who value liberty and individualism have nothing to fear from Obama, and that he’s actually not the collectivist his long association with ethnic-identity-pushing Social Gospellers would lead one to believe—shouldn’t B. O. be telling Mrs. O that she’s sending the wrong message to the tax serfs—I mean, voters?
 
Written By: Bilwick
URL: http://
I just hit the link above and there it is.
Odd; The only link I see in Google for the article is the one at "pickensdemocrats.org".

Oh, well.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
So, you’re saying that you’re just too stupid to understand that this sort of thing is the stuff of cults:
You silly, ridiculous person, there is not one religion, or sect of any religion, that one could not call a cult based on selective quoting of writings of that church.

Every sect is a cult... to those who think the proper way of worship is their way, and all others are wrong.

Try Googling the word cult with the name of any religion or sect, and you find idiots, I mean people like you, making a case that each of these is a cult.

What denomination are you? I’ll be happy to use your methodology to show you belong to a cult.

 
Written By: Captin Sarcastic
URL: http://
Captin Imbecile:
You silly, ridiculous person, there is not one religion, or sect of any religion, that one could not call a cult based on selective quoting of writings of that church
Well, I await your defense of the Klan and the Christian Identity movement in that case, because they are the analogs of the "black theology" foundation of Wright’s church.

Are you telling the Q and O blogsters that you would support someone from the Christian Identity movement for President of the United States?
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
More Captin’ Imbecile:
I’ll be happy to use your methodology to show you belong to a cult.
Well, maybe you’ll want to start with the racist summary of "black theology" from James Cone’s "Black Theology and Black Power" (p. 150). You are saying, in effect, that you will "be happy" to attack any Christian church in order to defend this:
[I]f [white people] are going to be in a relationship with God, they must enter by means of their black brothers, who are a manifestation of God’s presence on earth. The assumption that one can know God without knowing blackness is the basic heresy of the white churches. They want God without blackness, Christ without obedience, love without death. What they fail to realize is that in America, God’s revelation on earth has always been black, red, or some other shocking shade, but never white. Whiteness, as revealed in the history of America, is the expression of what is wrong with man. It is a symbol of man’s depravity. God cannot be white, even though white churches have portrayed him as white. When we look at what whiteness has done to the minds of men in this country, we can see clearly what the New Testament meant when it spoke of the principalities and powers. To speak of Satan and his powers becomes not just a way of speaking but a fact of reality. When we can see a people who are being controlled by an ideology of whiteness, then we know what reconciliation must mean. The coming of Christ means a denial of what we thought we were. It means destroying the white devil in us. Reconciliation to God means that white people are prepared to deny themselves (whiteness), take up the cross (blackness) and follow Christ (black ghetto).
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
"To your credit, I think you are just pulling my leg."

You disagree with the tone or the substance? Evidently if I had used ’black community’ instead of ’Volk’ you would find it acceptable. There are ’conservative’ ideas in a lot of theologies/isms. That doesn’t make all their beliefs acceptable.



"The value system does not exclude whites,"

Are you blind? Didn’t you read your own post?

"Pledge to Make the Fruits of All Developing and Acquired Skills Available to the Black community

Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions.

Pledge Allegiance to all Black Leadership Who Espouse and Embrace The Black Value System"

Sounds exclusive to me.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
timactual responding to CI:
"The value system does not exclude whites,"

Are you blind? Didn’t you read your own post?
Well, according to James Cone, sufficient submission to "blackness" will redeem a white person from their evil whiteness. Just as insufficient submission to one’s "blackness" as a black person, will cause one in effect to become white.

With that sort of generosity of spirit, how could you fault the "Black Values System" as racist?
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
You silly, ridiculous person, there is not one religion, or sect of any religion, that one could not call a cult based on selective quoting of writings of that church.
Sarcastic — I challenge you to make that case with Christianity, or, if more specificity is required, the Roman Catholic Church. Whatever toxic nuttiness can be found in selective quotations of Christian writing has been met head-on by later Christian writers and leaders to preserve the overall Christian message of love, forgiveness, and redemption. You will note that neither Obama nor Wright nor their fellow church members (nor yourself for that matter) have specifically denounced the above quote from the church website for what it is — a false, paranoid worldview that slanders America and poisons race relations.

I defy you to find anything as toxic and vicious in Christian writings outside the world of Christian cults as this again:

Killing [blacks] off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.

Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.

Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of "we" and "they" instead of "us".
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
You silly, ridiculous person, there is not one religion, or sect of any religion, that one could not call a cult based on selective quoting of writings of that church.
One can certainly adopt that view, but likewise one could also adopt the view than no one is insane, and any form of mental illness is just is just a different way of viewing the world (or we could watch Omeaga Man or read I Am Legend to get the same general point).

A more usefull approach towards understanding the world (but perhaps not for defending Obama), is to consider a church with views that are not mainstream as a cult.

For example, early Christianity was really just a Jewish cult. It spread, and with widespread adoption, it ceased to be a cult, except for some of its fringe groups.

Wright’s church clearly can be considered a cult. If it represented a mainstream view, it would no longer be a cult, even if it contained quite a few stuck-on-stupid beliefs.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Mrs. O stated that in order to pay for things like universal health care, "someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so someone else can have more."
Ahhh. Wealth redistribution. Sounds like she is inline with her cult, and neither her nor the cult care that much about the "Though shalt not steal" thing.

When you get down to it, the left is really about theft.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Don:
Wright’s church clearly can be considered a cult.
A black supremacist cult, to be more specific.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
So he joined the Marines at 19... volunteered... no way he was a Muslim then, right?
I’m not really sure how any of this timeline (not just the small part I quote, but the whole things, except for the explicit Christian parts) prevent him from being Muslim. Or NoI.

Generally speaking, military/professional/educational relationships don’t prevent religious ones. Heck, we have gang members in the military. And I don’t think NoI would oppose USMC training.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
"Well, according to James Cone, sufficient submission to "blackness" will redeem a white person from their evil whiteness."

Ah, I think I see. We can become an ’honorary’ or ’associate’ black person. Not entirely separate, and not entirely equal.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
When I read this in it’s entirety, therefore in context, I see recommnedations of how to live one’s life that are very conservative.
I can find the same stuff looking at radical Islamic teachings, for example. And the Nation of Islam has quite a few good, conservative teachings.

Yes, I know, you are only trying to defend your guy. You don’t care what he represents, since you know he’s against the real enemy: Republicans.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Dude, did you really just say that Black Amaerican Muslims are not real muslims?!? Allow me to suggest that you take this opportunity to revise and clarify that remark.
Nation of Islam isn’t considered real Islam by most Muslims.

Of course, it depends how you define things, I view it as an Islamic cult. It certainly isn’t mainstream Muslim.

There is nothing preventing American blacks from becoming mainstream Muslims, but if they do, they are not NoI.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
A black supremacist cult, to be more specific.


Yes, and it seems you could add in some form of socialism in the mix as well.

If you got rid of the black supremacist / socialist aspects, it would probably be mainstream.

Note that CaptianSnark wants to talk about the normal part of the church, and we want to talk about its Abby Normal aspects. What makes the church interesting is the Abby Normal aspects. It’s like we were talking about some dude with parinoid delusions (well, we are), and CaptianSnark wants to ignore the delusions and talk about the guy’s normal behaviour.

Consider NoI: they do in fact have lots of good ideas. Their bad ideas make it a deal killer for me. Same with Wright, same with Obama.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Yes, and it seems you could add in some form of socialism in the mix as well.
Absolutely. "Black theology" is also called "black liberation theology" and Wright specifically associates it with the "liberation theology" in Latin America, which was Marxist.

The difference here is that in "black theology" Cone makes race more important than class, which makes it more like German National Socialism, which while marked as an ideology of race (complete with a religious component) did not neglect class. Note the leveling aspect of the "Black Values System." (And note Wright’s big $1.8 million dollar retirement house in the predominantly white gated community near Chicago, provided to him by the church. Some Marxists black supremacists are more equal than others.)
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
McQ, in comment:
I assume Lizza based his claim [that Wright’s a former Muslim] on something. Would love to see a clarification or some form of proof, but regardless, the claim is out there.
I’d read numbers of times that Wright earned a degree based on study of Islam and Googling for that just now snagged this, in Wright’s own words from a TUCC bulletin:
Most of our members do not know that my Master’s Degree from the University of Chicago’s Divinity School was in the area of Islam in West Africa during the 19th Century — when the trans-Atlantic Slave Trade was at its zenith. Islam has as many manifestations as Christianity and Judaism, but most Americans are only fed a media diet on Islam as it relates to the “war on terror” and the Palestinian Muslim problem in the “state” of Israel.
As for Wright having been a Muslim, a brief search turned up this account by Obama from Dreams From My Father:
[Wright] had grown up in Philadelphia, the son of a Baptist minister. He had resisted his father’s vocation at first, joining the Marines out of college, dabbling with liquor, Islam, and black nationalism in the sixties. But the call of his faith had apparently remained, a steady tug on his heart, and eventually he’d entered Howard, then the University of Chicago, where he spent six years studying for a Ph.D. in the history of religion. He learned Hebrew and Greek, read the literature of Tillich and Niebuhr and the black liberation theologians. [Emphasis mine.]
This and much else suggests that Wright has a real affinity for Islam but I haven’t seen anything to make me think he was ever any sort of Koran-thumping Muslim or diehard member of the NOI. Not that I would care. The Black Liberation Theology itself, which Cone points out owes much to Malcolm X and NOI, is the thing that makes me not want him at the elbow of any future POTUS.

And since I’m commenting, I’d like to also take CS to task for implying that the timeline he provided of Wright’s life somehow rules out Wright having been a Muslim. It doesn’t.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
Linda:
The Black Liberation Theology itself, which Cone points out owes much to Malcolm X and NOI, is the thing that makes me not want [Wright] at the elbow of any future POTUS.
I don’t know about being at Obama’s elbow, but he’s already inside his head.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
I would note that Islam has the most simplistic conversion process of all religions. By the time you finish reading this post, you too could become a Muslim!

Rev. Wright easily could have fit an Islamic conversion into any spare ten seconds of his younger life.
The Declaration of the Testimony (Shahada)

To convert to Islam and become a Muslim a person needs to pronounce the below testimony with conviction and understanding its meaning:

I testify “La ilah illa Allah, Muhammad rasoolu Allah.”

The translation of which is:

“I testify that there is no true god (deity) but God (Allah), and that Muhammad is a Messenger (Prophet) of God.”

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/204/
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
And since I’m commenting, I’d like to also take CS to task for implying that the timeline he provided of Wright’s life somehow rules out Wright having been a Muslim. It doesn’t.


Of course. CS’s goal is defending Obama. Intellectual honesty isn’t a priority.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Don:
Of course. CS’s goal is defending Obama. Intellectual honesty isn’t a priority.
It’s not even a possibility.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
And since I’m commenting, I’d like to also take CS to task for implying that the timeline he provided of Wright’s life somehow rules out Wright having been a Muslim. It doesn’t.
I did not say it was impossible, I said it was extremely unlikely. ....
Oh, and this. This extremely unlikely.


If he ever was a Muslim, it doesn’t seem like he could have been one for long, and it seems to be a pretty flimsy basis for making the claim.
Of course. CS’s goal is defending Obama. Intellectual honesty isn’t a priority.


It’s not like I actually expect anyone here to vote for him, so I am doing this because I think I am right.

The greatest perpetration of intellectual dishonesty in this discussion is the constant repetition of the claim that exchanging the word black and white provides a valid basis for comparison.

 
Written By: Captin Sarcastic
URL: http://
Yeah: that comparison would only be valid if anyone was talking about race.

Oh... waitaminnit...
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
The greatest perpetration of intellectual dishonesty in this discussion is the constant repetition of the claim that exchanging the word black and white provides a valid basis for comparison.
—Captin Sarcastic
While it is true that blacks do hate whites, black hatred is not racism.
—James Cone, Black Theology and Black Power
Sarcastic — I’m pleased to see that you are down with Rev. Wright and James Cone.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://

 
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