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Another Conversation about Race
Posted by: Jon Henke on Wednesday, April 09, 2008

Thomas Sowell...
Nothing is more fraudulent than calls for a “dialogue on race.” Those who issue such calls are usually quick to cry “racism” at any frank criticism. They are almost invariably seeking a monologue on race, to which others are supposed to listen.
If you actually want to have a dialogue on race, start by describing what you or your side has done wrong. If your "conversation about race" consists of telling other people that they suck, you're not really looking for a dialogue.

Incidentally, Barack Obama - to his credit - did it exactly right. In addition to pointing out the tragic legacy of racism in America and the legitimate grievances of African-Americans, he also criticized Jeremiah Wright's "incendiary language" and "views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation". He acknowledged that "working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race" and acknowledged their "legitimate concerns" over race-related policy and issues.

His supporters have not often followed suit, but his speech was a good example of how to do this well. If his supporters do not follow his example, however, his single speech will not create a "dialogue on race". To a great extent, it is up to him to demand that.
The same people who have gone ballistic when some prominent figure is found to belong to some all-male social club are full of excuses for why Barack Obama remained a member of a racist and anti-American church for 20 years.
Conversely: The same people who went ballistic when over Barack Obama's 20-year association with a church and Pastor who preached a racially-separatist message are full of excuses when some prominent figure is found to belong to some all-male (or all-white) social club.

The lesson, I suppose, is that it is quite easy for a National Conversation about Race to turn into a National Chance to Exploit Race To Score Political Points.
 
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Comments
Henke quotes Tom Sowell:
"Nothing is more fraudulent than calls for a "dialogue on race." Those who issue such calls are usually quick to cry "racism" at any frank criticism. They are almost invariably seeking a monologue on race, to which others are supposed to listen."
That is precisely, exactly correct.

When I hear someone say we need a "dialogue about race" I know that it means a one-way didactic lecture from the axe grinder.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Then, Henke:
Incidentally, Barack Obama - to his credit - did it exactly right. In addition to pointing out the tragic legacy of racism in America and the legitimate grievances of African-Americans, he also criticized Jeremiah Wright’s "incendiary language" and "views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation".
Barack Obama was trying to do the impossible: explain why he belongs for 20 years and counting to a black separatist, racist church. To do that he tried to, through the miracle of moral equivalence, compare some racial stereotype uttered in private to him by his grandmother to the public ravings from the pulpit of his "former" pastor.

Or as Tom Sowell says further down in the column Henke quotes from:
Whenever I see one of Barack Obama’s smooth performances, it reminds me of a saying from my old neighborhood in Harlem: “An eel is like sandpaper compared to you.”
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
JH:
Conversely: The same people who went ballistic when over Barack Obama’s 20-year association with a church and Pastor who preached a racially-separatist message are full of excuses when some prominent figure is found to belong to some all-male (or all-white) social club.
You were doing so well up until here. There is a significant difference between criticizing the former (content) and excusing the latter (superficiality). The same people who went ballisic over Obama’s Wright association would not have done so had it been an all-black congregation led by, say, MLK.
 
Written By: Rammage
URL: http://www.atlasblogged.com
I don’t think membership in an all-male social club (or all-female one, or all-black one, or all altitudinally-challenged one) is the same as membership in an organization that promotes hate or racism.
 
Written By: Grimshaw
URL: http://
The same people who have gone ballistic when some prominent figure is found to belong to some all-male social club are full of excuses for why Barack Obama remained a member of a racist and anti-American church for 20 years.
Conversely: The same people who went ballistic when over Barack Obama’s 20-year association with a church and Pastor who preached a racially-separatist message are full of excuses when some prominent figure is found to belong to some all-male (or all-white) social club.
If only society, and the media, would ’go ballistic’ equally. Hypocrisy is one thing... ignoring, or worse, foisting hypocrisy ought to warrant outright condemnation. Yet only one side is bludgeoned measured by this.
 
Written By: bains
URL: http://
The same people who went ballisic over Obama’s Wright association would not have done so had it been an all-black congregation led by, say, MLK.
Moreover, the UCC is not exclusive, anybody and everybody who wants to attend, may attend, including a number of whites.

What I see as the problem are people who consider any liberal ideas on this topic to be an absolute acceptance of 100% reponsibility of black people, and therefore reject it out of hand, and those who consider any conservative ideas on this topic to be an absolute acceptance of 100% reponsibility of the black community for their plight. They are both true, but neither is entirely true, and people should be open to ideas that address both aspects, or either aspect, as they both need addressing.

Obama addresses this in his book, acknowledging the failure of welfare to reward work but instead rewarding a failure to work.

If you look at that scary black values system of the UCC, you would note that it specifically addresses the black community’s responsibility for changing the black culture.

Problems found in the black commnunity are single parent families...
Commitment to the Black FamilyThe Black family circle must generate strength, stability, and love despite the uncertainty of externals, because these characteristics are required if the developing person is to withstand warping by our racist competitive society.
Those Blacks who are blessed with membership in a strong family unit must reach out and expand that blessing to the less fortunate, especially to the children.
Anti-intellectualism...
Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
We must forswear anti-intellectualism. Continued survival demands that each Black Person be developed to the utmost of his/her mental potential despite the inadequacies of the formal education process. “Real education” fosters understanding of ourselves as well as every aspect of our environment. Also it develops within us the ability to fashion concepts and tools for better utilization of our resources, and more effective solutions to our problems. Since the majority of Blacks have been denied such learning, Black Education must include elements that provide high school graduates with marketable
skills, a trade or qualifications for apprenticeships, or proper preparation for college. Basic education for all Blacks should include Mathematics, Science, Logic, General Semantics, Participative Politics, Economics and Finance, and the Care and Nurture of Black minds. To the extent that we individually reach for, even strain for excellence, we increase, geometrically, the value and resourcefulness of the Black Community. We must recognize the relativity of one’s best: this year’s best can be bettered next year. Such is
the language of growth and development. We must seek to excel in every endeavor.
Poor work ethic...
Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
“It is becoming harder to find qualified people to work in Chicago” Whether this is true or not, it represents one of the many reasons given by businesses and industries for deserting the Chicago area. We must realize that a location with good facilities, adequate transportation and reputation for producing skilled workers will attract industry. We are in competition with other cities, states, and nations for jobs. High productivity must be a goal of the Black workforce.
Poor self discipline....
Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
To accomplish anything worthwhile requires self-discipline. We must be a community of self-disciplined persons, if we are to actualize and utilize our own human resources instead of perpetually submitting to exploitation by others. Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of Black Progress, and a model for Black Youth.
Successful Blacks leaving the black community...
Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness”
Classic methodology on control of captives teaches that captors must keep the captive ignorant educationally, but trained sufficiently well to serve the system. Also, the captors must be able to identify the “talented tenth” of those subjugated, especially those who show promise of providing the kind of leadership that might threaten the captor’s control.

Those so identified as separated from the rest of the people by:
Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another.
Placing them in concentration camps, and/or structuring an economic environment that induces captive youth to fill the jails and prisons.
Seducing them into a socioeconomic class system which while training them to earn more dollars, hypnotizes them into believing they are better than others and teaches them to think in terms of “we” and “they” instead of “us”.
So, while it is permissible to chase “middle-incomeness” with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method-the psychological entrapment of Black
“middleclassness”: If we avoid the snare, we will also diminish our “voluntary”
contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, Black people no longer will be deprived of their birthright, the leadership, resourcefulness, and example of their own talented persons.
Again, the framing of these very sound suggestions for living one’s life is admittedly off-putting, but if these suggestions were framed in language that would appeal to the white community, they would not work as well.

Anyone can understand this, one has to intentionally avoid comprehension not acknowledge this.

 
Written By: Captin Sarcastic
URL: http://
Captin Sarcastic,

The problem is that while those are, for the most part, very laudable approaches to problems plaguing the "black community", the strong anti-white, anti-jew, anti-other undercurrents that pervade the actual Sunday sermons and other activities of Trinity resemble a group gearing for war against the rest of the USA, not endeavoring to become a more productive, harmonious part of the nation.

This is not a question of whether the current challenges facing blacks are "100% the fault of whites" or "100% the fault of blacks". It’s a question of whether Trinity embraces a worldview and teaching that promotes black bigotry against other groups. So long as Trinity is teaching that "rich white people" are the enemy, the oppressors, the captors, the controllers, we should seriously question the character and values of those members who voluntarily associate with it.

...and I have to say that the moral equivalency Henke draws between membership to this church and membership in an all-male social club is more than a little strained. The difference is not of degree, but of kind. As a thought experiment, do you also think the people who would defend the all-male social group would also defend a group who inveighs so vituperatively against blacks? If your answer is no, then your equivalency fails. If your answer is yes, then I believe we have greatly differing opinions of the character of those who "went ballistic" over Rev. Wright’s words.

To end on a positive note, I did appreciate the quote from Sowell. Insightful as always.
 
Written By: cnh
URL: http://
To put in my words what Grimshaw and cnh have already said, I don’t equate membership in an all-male, or otherwise exclusive, social club with membership in a church where a "racially-separatist message" is constantly preached.

And I’d like to be reminded: When’s the last time that someone now criticizing Obama’s TUCC membership sprang to the defense of "some prominent figure" found to belong to an all-white group? And was it a group that happened to lack non-white members, or one that specifically championed white values?
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
His speech was pretty and may have been true to a degree. But it does not excuse personal accountability

Invented claims like Whites created HIV and staged 9/11 are for only one purpose. To curry hatred that has zero basis. The white equivalent to Wright would be a KKK Grand Wizard, not a exclusive social club.

The ’white analogy’ to the Wright situation would be that a white politician listens to the speeches of a Grand Wizard for 20+ years, exposes his kids to him, and makes him a mentor and be able to exonerate himself from that relationship by writing a speech telling the world that wasn’t his personal responsibility but just a product of race relations in America.
 
Written By: jpm100
URL: http://
Incidentally, Barack Obama - to his credit - did it exactly right.
No, he was just real slippery.
Conversely: The same people who went ballistic when over Barack Obama’s 20-year association with a church and Pastor who preached a racially-separatist message are full of excuses when some prominent figure is found to belong to some all-male (or all-white) social club.
Well, if the person isn’t running for, say, president (or other high public office), I doubt I’d care.

Belonging to an all-male (or female) club wouldn’t bother me even if they were running for president (although, if there were related, amplifying facts it could be an issue). I’d have problems with an all-white club.

The problem with Obama’s church is the message.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Again, the framing of these very sound suggestions for living one’s life is admittedly off-putting, but if these suggestions were framed in language that would appeal to the white community, they would not work as well.

Anyone can understand this, one has to intentionally avoid comprehension not acknowledge this.
Sarcastic — As far as I’m concerned, when it comes to intentionally avoiding comprehension, you’re the champ in these discussions. Sure, the aspects of Trinity which are laudable are laudable, and those which are poisonous lies are poisonous lies. One doesn’t make up for the other.

I had a high school friend convert to some form of white supremacist Christianity. He became a better person—more focused, more thoughtful and considerate—by doing so. But he was still a white supremacist. And when I talk up about my friend, I don’t excuse him or his church because they do good in the world.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
I would agree that membership in an all-male (or all-female) social club is not equivalent to membership in an all-white (or all-black) social club. There are perfectly acceptable, non-bigoted, reasons to participate in a gender-specific social group.

I do not suggest that TUCC was all-black, but that their rhetoric was racially separatist. The tendency to self-segregate is a distressingly common phenomenon among oppressed groups, and it creates many problems.

Replace the word "black" with the word "white" in their Black Values essay, or in some of the speeches, and tell me if that sounds acceptable. If not, then it’s hard to see how the reverse is different. It may be more understandable, but a reason is not necessarily an excuse.

That said, I don’t think it necessarily reflects on Obama. Or rather, I would need much more significant evidence than "he went to a church" to believe that Obama shared that particular belief. In the absence of direct evidence that he believes such a thing, I would not make that assumption.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://QandO.net
"the framing of these very sound suggestions for living one’s life is admittedly off-putting,"

More misleading nonsense from Erb’s apprentice. There is absolutely nothing ’off-putting’ about suggestions for self-discipline, work ethic, etc. What is ’off-putting’ is the characterization of white folks as ’captors’ who must subjugate blacks, "Killing them off directly, and/or fostering a social system that encourages them to kill off one another", etc.

"but if these suggestions were framed in language that would appeal to the white community, they would not work as well"

Why not?


"one has to intentionally avoid comprehension not acknowledge this"

This from the person who repeatedly insists on his own definition of words, even when the actual definitions are shown to him.


"when it comes to intentionally avoiding comprehension, you’re the champ in these discussions."

Bingo.

 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
"Replace the word "black" with the word "white" in their Black Values essay, or in some of the speeches, and tell me if that sounds acceptable"


So, while it is permissible to chase “middle-incomeness” with all our might, we must avoid the third separation method-the psychological entrapment of White
“middleclassness”: If we avoid the snare, we will also diminish our “voluntary”
contributions to methods A and B. And more importantly, White people no longer will be deprived of their birthright, the leadership, resourcefulness, and example of their own talented persons

You tell me. And let us not forget the tacit naming of Whites as ’captors’, etc. in the earlier part of the excerpt I used.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Replace the word "black" with the word "white" in their Black Values essay, or in some of the speeches, and tell me if that sounds acceptable.
Of course it doesn’t sound acceptable. It sounds exclusionary and lunatic and threatening. Here’s a sentence from CS’s excerpts above, with the substitutions you suggest:
Self discipline coupled with a respect for self, will enable each of us to be an instrument of White Progress, and a model for White Youth.
If a presidential candidate who happened to be white had any association with any group blathering like that, well, he wouldn’t be a presidential candidate. You know that.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
Henke:
That said, I don’t think it necessarily reflects on Obama. Or rather, I would need much more significant evidence than "he went to a church" to believe that Obama shared that particular belief. In the absence of direct evidence that he believes such a thing, I would not make that assumption.
So, let me get this straight, you think that someone seeking to become the President of the United States deserves the benefit of the doubt about belonging to a racist church for, basically, his entire adult life? While his schtick is that he’s running as a racial reconciliationist?

I’d give the benefit of the doubt to him if he’s busing tables at the local diner; not when he’s nudging toward control of the foreign and domestic policy of the United States. Not when he wants control of the national security apparatus of the most powerful country in the world.

If the extent of his racialist memberships was to belong to a black-only bowling league, I wouldn’t give a damn.

Obama is a con man, running the big con. He gets zero benefit of the doubt.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
That said, I don’t think it necessarily reflects on Obama. Or rather, I would need much more significant evidence than "he went to a church" to believe that Obama shared that particular belief. In the absence of direct evidence that he believes such a thing, I would not make that assumption.
Jon — I don’t know if you’re a regular church-goer, but choosing a church on which to base one’s spiritual life is a very significant choice. That choice says a great deal about one’s personal values. Unless one is insincere, stupid, or passive, one chooses a church because it is largely aligned with one’s values.

Furthermore, according to Obama’s memoir, the first sermon he heard from Rev. Wright—yea verily the sermon from which Obama got his title, "the audacity of hope"—goes on about how "white folk’s greed" and apartheid run the world. Obama reports that he wept at the end of that sermon. DI can’t believe that Obama, whose heroes up until then were his radical black father and Malcolm X, is not buying into this black power values of his church.
[T]he pastor described going to a museum and being confronted by a painting title Hope.

"The painting depicts a harpist," Revernd Wright explained, "a woman who at first glance appears to be sitting atop a great mountaintop. Untill you take a closer look and see that the woman is bruised and bloodied, dressed in tattered rags, the harp reduced to a single frayed string. Your eye is then drawn down to the scene below, down to the valley below, where everywhere are the ravages of famine, the drumbeat of war, a world groaning under strife and deprivation.

It is this world, a world where cruise ships throw away more food in a day than most residents of Port-au-Prince see in a year, where white folks’ greed runs a world in need, aprtheid in one hemisphere, apathy in another hemisphere ... That’s the world! On which hope sits."

And so it went, a meditation on a fallen world. While the boys next to me doodled on their church bulletin, Reverend Wright spoke of Sharpesville and Hiroshima, the callousness of policy makers in the White House and in the State House.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
Replace the word "black" with the word "white" in their Black Values essay, or in some of the speeches, and tell me if that sounds acceptable. If not, then it’s hard to see how the reverse is different. It may be more understandable, but a reason is not necessarily an excuse.
This is a faulty comparison. Black in America is an ethnicity, white is not. White is everything that isn’t black, therefore exclusionary by definition.

A more appropriate comparison would be to replace the word black with the word Irish, or Polish, or Jewish.

But if you must feign offense, by all means, delude yourself to the detriment of American blacks, it’s small slight in comparison.
the strong anti-white, anti-jew, anti-other undercurrents that pervade the actual Sunday sermons and other activities of Trinity resemble a group gearing for war against the rest of the USA, not endeavoring to become a more productive, harmonious part of the nation.
Where do you get this?

The occasional rants from Wright were not pervasive, and the overll message was one of endeavoring to become a harmonious part of the nation.
Invented claims like Whites created HIV and staged 9/11 are for only one purpose. To curry hatred that has zero basis.
I agree that the AIDS claims are fantastic, but Wright did not invent them. I cannot imagine believing those conspiracy theories, but I do recognize that when Wright was in his 20’s, the Tuskeegee Experiment was exposed. That this happened in America, makes me understand, though not agree, that blacks could come to believe the AIDS conspiracy theories.

As to 9/11, Wright never suggested that 9/11 was staged (whatever that means), he believed that it was the result of our foreign policy with respect to propping up vicious dictators who were in our orbit, and knocking down democratically elected leaders, who were not. It is not a radical position, nor is it anti-American, it’s just not a conservative position. Patriotism, the real kind, not the flag pin on your lapel kind, requires one to speak out against perceived errors of your country.

So, what’s the result of this...
Obama’s church has faced threats of violence since the Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s comments on race and on America became national news, an official of a church council with which it’s affiliated said.

"There have been phone threats and written threats to the congregation — and we want to stand and say absolutely no to that in all places of worship," said the general secretary of the National Council of Churches, the Rev. Michael Kinnamon.

He and the president of the United Church of Christ spoke at a press conference at the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, where UCC President John Thomas called for a dialogue on race, and both defended the church and the denomination.

"I have seen the UCC portrayed as some kind of radical sect," said Kinnamon. "This is nonsense."
I think Kinnamon is talking about McPhillips.

I wonder how long it’s going to be before this errant characterization leads to murder?

But hey, what’s a murder or ten if you can knock a few poll points of a Democratic candidate?

 
Written By: Captin Sarcastic
URL: http://
This is a faulty comparison. Black in America is an ethnicity, white is not. White is everything that isn’t black, therefore exclusionary by definition.
Man, the Latinos, Asians, and Native Americans are gonna be soooo surprised when they learn they’re all really white dudes. Honestly, that’s painting a little too broadly, don’t you think?
The occasional rants from Wright were not pervasive, and the overll message was one of endeavoring to become a harmonious part of the nation.
Tell you what, why don’t you find a SINGLE clip of the good Rev. saying something positive about white people. One example of him saying something positive about the USA, or Jews. Show me some balance. Until then, the picture is of strengthening the black community in opposition and resistance to the aformentioned oppressors.
I agree that the AIDS claims are fantastic, but Wright did not invent them. I cannot imagine believing those conspiracy theories, but I do recognize that when Wright was in his 20’s, the Tuskeegee Experiment was exposed. That this happened in America, makes me understand, though not agree, that blacks could come to believe the AIDS conspiracy theories.
I don’t believe David Duke invented white supremacy. I don’t know anyone who believes that. People think he’s scum because he’s a bigot, irrespective of who created his flavor of bigotry. I don’t care if he was raised a racist, he’s a grown, thinking adult, and is responsible for his words and actions. I choose to be colorblind and hold Rev. Wright to the same standard.
I wonder how long it’s going to be before this errant characterization leads to murder?
Truly fascinating. You just spend an entire post excusing the "errant characterizations" of Rev. Wright, then turn on a dime and imply that valid criticism of that church’s teachings might possibly lead to murder. Understand, threats of violence are condemnable in all these cases, but the only ones actively preaching hatred, yes hatred, are those in Trinity’s pulpit.

We will never end racism by excusing it.
 
Written By: cnh
URL: http://
I wonder how long it’s going to be before this errant characterization leads to murder?
Sarcastic — Do you have any concern that Trinity church’s teaching that American society actively murders blacks and inspires blacks to murder each other might have something to do with the current statistic that American blacks are 25x more likely to murder American whites than visa-versa?

As far as I am concerned, Rev. Wright and Trinity church own a piece of that statistic being fostering the rage that must result from being told that your race is being actively murdered by its captor white society. And Barack Obama gets a share of that too for never speaking up against this sick, wacko stuff that is still on the Trinity web site.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
"That said, I don’t think it necessarily reflects on Obama. Or rather, I would need much more significant evidence than "he went to a church" to believe that Obama shared that particular belief. In the absence of direct evidence that he believes such a thing, I would not make that assumption."

This is classic! I often find Henke a little too apologetic for the Dems problems. Its like he bends over backwards to be polite, so much that they know they can slap him around a bit and get away with it. I understand why someone might do that, its honorable and useful if you ever plan to work with them in the future.

But, would Jon Henke support a GOP candidate who had been a member of a white supremacist church for 23 years, as long as that person had never said anything racist personally? Somehow I seriously doubt that.

Or perhaps that’s too hard core. What are some of the objectionable but not nazi churches out there? Falwell’s or Hagee’s? Methinks that would be a major issue for that candidate, especially on a national stage. Heck, Mitt Romney had trouble with Mormon’s historical issues with race and if they had not changed those positions I think he would not have been even allowed to get near political office.







 
Written By: Harun
URL: http://
Captin Imbecile:
I think Kinnamon is talking about McPhillips.

I wonder how long it’s going to be before this errant characterization leads to murder?
I think that Kinnamon is talking about anyone who followed Jeremiah Wright’s demand that those interested in understanding his church read James Cone.

When you read James Cone, you know immediately that Wright is running a black supremacist cult. And you know exactly how Wright’s ranting, racist sermons, far from being anomalies, are directly based in the very "black theology" that he demands you read to understand his cult.

And CI from further back:
Black in America is an ethnicity, white is not. White is everything that isn’t black, therefore exclusionary by definition.
You’ve never heard the term "white ethnics?" Meaning, generally, not WASP. And what makes a "white anglo-saxon protestant" not part of an ethnic group?

But further along, beyond ethnicity, black and white refer to race (as opposed to Jamaican or German, Ethiopian or Italian), which Wright (and Cone) make constant reference to. So, the "Black Values System" is every bit as racial as would be a "White Values System," which is why either is a racialist undertaking.

But we have only one candidate for President of the United States who belongs to a black nationalist church that touts a "Black Values System" that includes vile, disgusting, racist accusations against whites. Vile, disgusting, racist accusations that very much resemble the accusations of German National Socialists against Jews.

 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Harun:
But, would Jon Henke support a GOP candidate who had been a member of a white supremacist church for 23 years, as long as that person had never said anything racist personally? Somehow I seriously doubt that.
Let’s say that the GOP had a black superstar candidate, who talked a free market line even better than Obama talks the liberal line, and it came to light that the black Republican superstar belonged to a church based on a "theology" that taught that whites were what was wrong with the human race. How fast, exactly, would it take for that superstar candidate to be taken out of the running for President? I’d say one long weekend news cycle.

About as long as it would take for a Republican to be forced to resign the Presidency if he had been found to be getting fellated in the Oval Office toilet by a White House intern.
Heck, Mitt Romney had trouble with Mormon’s historical issues with race and if they had not changed those positions I think he would not have been even allowed to get near political office.
Mitt Romney did not just have problems with LDS "historical issues." He had problems with traditional Christians in general, many of whom see the LDS church as an uber-heresy (meaning not just a dispute over whence the Holy Spirit proceeds).
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
This is a faulty comparison. Black in America is an ethnicity, white is not. White is everything that isn’t black, therefore exclusionary by definition. A more appropriate comparison would be to replace the word black with the word Irish, or Polish, or Jewish.
You are being dishonest, and you know it. Black or African-American is an ethnicity. White or caucasian is also an ethnicity. The next time you apply for a job or a school loan, pay attention.
A more appropriate comparison would be to replace the word black with the word Irish, or Polish, or Jewish.
No, this is not appropriate at all, and you know it. Replace the word black with white. Irish and Polish are nationalities. Replace Irish with Jamaican, not a broader group of people that encompasses everyone from several nations. Come on.
 
Written By: Is
URL: http://
Black and white (and yellow) refer in general to races, i.e., African and Caucasian (and Asian), not to national ethnicities, i.e. Ethiopian, Somalian, Berber, Arab, Turk, Italian, German, Dutch, Chinese.

In those cases where American blacks are referred to as "ethnics," it should be considered an insult, because most American blacks have a lineage in America that goes back before most whites. They are hardly new arrivals to be classed with far more recent immigrants, as in the case of an "ethnic Irish," which would mean an recently arrived unassimilated or assimilating Irish immigrant, not an assimilated person of Irish heritage.

"White ethnics" often refer to people of a particular demography, such as the Boston Irish, or Chicago Poles.

The issue with blacks, therefore, is not their ethnicity; their families have been here for as long as 350 years. (Contrast that with an "ethnic" Somalian, who might have arrived with his Somalian customs intact in the last decade.)

The black experience (the negative aspect) in America is a racial experience vis a vis whites. That’s why we hear calls for a "Dialogue about Race," not for a "dialogue about ethnicity." The issue of race is largely an issue of skin color, not national heritage, because the national heritage of American blacks is American.

Wright’s cult attempts to stir the still enduring resentment of blacks into a black nationalism that views blacks as "captives" and whites as "captors."

Hence the repulsive reverse-racism of the "Black Values System," in which whites are accused of trying to kill blacks, etc.

 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
"This is a faulty comparison. Black in America is an ethnicity, white is not. White is everything that isn’t black, therefore exclusionary by definition."

Again with the arbitrary and idiosyncratic definitions. Black and White are colors, not ethnicities. There are a number of ethnicities who are Black, just as there are a number who are White. And also some who are neither. By your own logic, Black is just as exclusionary as White.


"The occasional rants from Wright were not pervasive, and the overll message was one of endeavoring to become a harmonious part of the nation."

I take it you are a member, or at least a frequent visitor, to this church and have read all its literature.


"9/11 was staged (whatever that means),"

What, at a loss for a definition?

"but Wright did not invent them."

Nobody claims he did, and it is idiotic to excuse him because he was only repeating something someone else invented. I will not bother to list the obvious examples.

"I wonder how long it’s going to be before this errant characterization leads to murder?
But hey, what’s a murder or ten if you can knock a few poll points of a Democratic candidate?"

You have turned into a real a******.
"You’ve done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"


 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
I thought this was the best in Sowell piece ..
One way to reduce illegal immigration might be to translate some of our far-left publications into Spanish and give everyone in Mexico subscriptions. After they read how terrible this country is, many may want to stay away.
I thought that I will second.
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
The occasional rants from Wright were not pervasive
This just might be believable if it looked like somebody in the pews had the look of shock on their faces, but it it’s there .. it’s awful hard to find.
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
[Trinity church’s] overll message was one of endeavoring to become a harmonious part of the nation.
Sarcastic — You can’t support this. There is nothing about becoming a "harmonious part" of America on the Trinity website or in Wright’s rhetoric. It’s all about the black community, commitment to Africa, commitment to the historical education of the black community in diaspora, the "U.S. of KKK.A", black empowerment, black this, black that, and of course, "God damn America."

Leaving aside the murderous aspects of the "Disavowal of Middleclassness", that section is exactly about not becoming a "harmonious part" of America. It is about preserving one’s allegiance to the black community and black values, and not melting into America.

This is a big part of my problem with Obama. His radical background and his membership in Trinity indicate to me that his commitment to America and to all its peoples is seriously compromised. He’ll say what he must to get elected, but deep down Obama is not about America.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
Its interesting to me the utter lack of scrutiny Obama has directly had to be subjected to on this issue.

He blew off responding the first weekend it broke. That Monday he says he’ll give a speach Tuesday and brushes off Questions. Gives a speach that Tuesday with no Q&A. Then he lays low two more days and lets the long Easter weekend do the rest.

So all we got out of him was a crafted speech and a handful of improvised questions by non-journalists.

So we primarily have this lovely speech to go by. Must be nice. It literally took at least 4 (if not more) days to come up with after it was clear the issue demanded some kind of response.

And I have to wonder how many people were involved in writing that speech. Personal experiences extracted, how much of the speech is really Obama’s? Its a kicker that some people accept almost exclusively a crafted speech with no Q&A as adequate to excuse Obama. It would be a double kicker if the fundamental points of the speech didn’t even come from him.
 
Written By: jpm100
URL: http://
The tendency to self-segregate is a distressingly common phenomenon among oppressed groups, and it creates many problems.
You have some logic dissonance there, Jon. "Oppressed" groups don’t have the authority to "self" anything. They live where they are told. It’s free people who self-segregate. Little Italy, Chinatown, "Southie" Boston are all examples of free people congregating according to ethnic/cultural similarities, and none of them were forced to do so.

TUCC is another example of self segregation along ethnic/racial lines, but even that is not what upset people about Obama’s association with the church. The only problem was the divisive, conspiracy-laden and racist message coming from the likes of Rev. Wright, and that Obama chose this man as his spiritual mentor. It’s a legitimate question as to Obama’s character, integrity and judgment. That’s it. End of story.
 
Written By: MichaelW
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
But, would Jon Henke support a GOP candidate who had been a member of a white supremacist church for 23 years, as long as that person had never said anything racist personally? Somehow I seriously doubt that.

Oh man. The unintentional irony here is hilarious. Good Sir, was the 2006 Senate Campaign yet so distant in your memory?


Hey, I actually have no grudge against Henke serving under George Allen - who used to go around UVA looking for black people to beat with baseball hats - anymore than I have a grudge against Barack Obama for hanging out with Wright.
In the real world - heck, even on television, good people hang out with people with moral issues or ideologocially kooky condemnable aspects to them. He who has not sinned, cast the first stone.

Oh, by the way, Henke, I liked your stuff on McCardle’s page. This ain’t bad either.
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
Baseball hats. Ha. h = b
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
George Allen - who used to go around UVA looking for black people to beat with baseball [b]ats
Oh bull. That’s total crap.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://QandO.net

 
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