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Basra citizens feel safer with ISF in control
Posted by: McQ on Tuesday, April 15, 2008

Gasp! This can't be true. Why, why we've been told that the Iraqi military lost, Sadr was in control and the Iraqis there were on the militia's side.
Three weeks after Iraqi troops swarmed into the southern city of Basra to take on armed militiamen who had overrun the streets, many residents say they feel safer and that their lives have improved.

The fierce fighting which marked the first week of Operation Sawlat al-Fursan (Charge of the Knights) has given way to slower, more focused house-by-house searches by Iraqi troops, which led on Monday to the freeing of an abducted British journalist.

Residents say the streets have been cleared of gunmen, markets have reopened, basic services have been resumed and a measure of normality has returned to the oil-rich city.

The port of Umm Qasr is in the hands of the Iraqi forces who wrested control of the facility from Shiite militiamen, and according to the British military it is operational once again.
Most disconcerting of all is this is an AFP report. One of our "Iraq is a policy failure" types here claims the French agency gives the most unbiased coverage of any of the news agencies which cover Iraq. In fact, as I recall, he claims that's where he heads when there are conflicting claims.

Huh. So, this must be true, no?
 
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McQ, you must be asleep.
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
Sigh. One more time: Sadr "won" because his movement survived and didn’t stand down until their mutual Iranian masters (you know, the Iranians Bush wants to help control Iraq) intervened.

The Bush cultists were putting out the story that the Sadrists were being crushed, and, apart from the hideousness of the fact that you support Maliki’s attempt to slaughter his political opponents in advance of the election (because, after all, the purpose of the surge is to kill Iraqis: "Al-Qaeda in Iraq," Sadrists; the additional Iraqis killed by the surge before Sadr called the cease-fire of 2007), this turned out to be false, and the reports that many Iraqi army/police were deserting turned out to be true (as the above report says).

Now as violence continues to spike in Iraq and the Sadr City slaughter continues, Bush cultists seize on a report that the Basra operation was not a complete failure for the Iraqi army. Kind of a throwback to those 2004 reports about how Iraq was really awesome because 10 out of 18 areas or whatever were really kind of peaceful and it was only in Baghdad that we were failing.

So, to review, the surge has failed to curb violence, the political situation is now worse in that we’re actively helping an Iranian-backed thug kill his political opponents, and Iraq will only get better if America leaves. No wonder McQ wants to focus on reports that maybe his Iranian-backed friends aren’t complete failures.
 
Written By: T.B.
URL: http://
Sadr "won" because his movement survived and didn’t stand down until their mutual Iranian masters (you know, the Iranians Bush wants to help control Iraq) intervened.
Oh ... see that’s called redefining victory where I come from. Others call it moving the goal posts.

Who is in charge of Basra right now TB? Yeah, the AFP report sort of gives that away, doesn’t it? And again, in the real world, he who holds and controls the territory wins.

So you’re left with alleging that Iran has decided that’s the way it should end, when, in fact, that ’ending’ is detrimental to any intentions Iran had in the Basra area.
Now as violence continues to spike in Iraq and the Sadr City slaughter continues, Bush cultists seize on a report that the Basra operation was not a complete failure for the Iraqi army.
You know, combat is a funny thing - when you engage in it, violence has a tendency to spike. Everyone, obviously excluding you, knew that Sadr city was a place that was going to have to eventually be cleaned out. And if you followed the strategy of the surge, you knew that was going to be reserved for a later day when AQI had been essentially eliminated as a functional threat, other places had been pacified and secured, and the forces necessary to do the job were available.

Well surprise - that time has arrived and guess what’s happening? As you might have figured out by now, with that, unsurprisingly, comes a "spike in violence".
So, to review, the surge has failed to curb violence, the political situation is now worse in that we’re actively helping an Iranian-backed thug kill his political opponents, and Iraq will only get better if America leaves.
Well let’s see, Anbar’s a country club, they’re having bike races in Haditha, Sunnis are welcoming Shia pilgrims with flowers and food and the folks in Basra are very glad to see the ISF on the streets. The Iraqi government has executed a national budget for the first time, passed a law for de-Baathification and provinical elections.

Yup, the surge has failed. We should all take the TB spin and suck it up and recognize that any bit of violence in Iraq - much like a hot summer day to global warming advocates proves the glaciers are melting and we’re all going to drown - fortells doom.
No wonder McQ wants to focus on reports that maybe his Iranian-backed friends aren’t complete failures.
Well gee, TB, what part of the "report" do you find incorrect or indicative of your point (or lack thereof)?

And here, you might want to read through this as an antidote to whatever tripe you have been reading about the situation.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
T.B.,

I have absolutely no idea how you managed to fit that much stupid into one post.

To quote Ron Burgundy: "How’d you do that? Heck, I’m not even mad; that’s amazing."
 
Written By: A fine scotch
URL: http://

Who is in charge of Basra right now TB?


I don’t know. Do you? Basra was in chaos until Maliki’s "government" begged Iran to intervene. Iran intervened, the Mahdis stood down and the Iraqi army is still there, but I don’t know that it means anyone’s in control of the territory.

in fact, that ’ending’ is detrimental to any intentions Iran had in the Basra area.

Why? Iran has much more control over Maliki’s "government" than Sadr, who is more of a nationalist (for example, Maliki supports the brutal foreign occupation of Iraq that has helped Iran). Iran’s intentions were far better served by an inconclusive ending; if the fight had gone on, Sadr might have won (bad for Iran).

And if you followed the strategy of the surge, you knew that was going to be reserved for a later day when AQI had been essentially eliminated as a functional threat, other places had been pacified and secured, and the forces necessary to do the job were available.

Except that since AQI was always a minor factor, and violence has been going up the last couple of months, what we have here is Maliki’s "government" ignoring the forces that have caused violence to rise, and instead attacking a rival Iran-backed militia that had declared a cease-fire.

So we’re adopting a policy of ignoring the groups who are causing the violence in Iraq, while causing new violence so that the "government" of Iraq can kill lots of extra people. Kewl.


Well let’s see, Anbar’s a country club, they’re having bike races in Haditha, Sunnis are welcoming Shia pilgrims with flowers and food and the folks in Basra are very glad to see the ISF on the streets. The Iraqi government has executed a national budget for the first time, passed a law for de-Baathification and provinical elections.


Well, the Anbar Awakening started before the failed surge, violence was at hideous 2005 levels even in late 2007 and has been going higher, and the "de-Baathification law" was an anti-reconciliation measure opposed by the people it was supposedly meant to help.

So, in summary, Iraq is now worse off than it was in 2005, when it became clear to all but the hard-core Bush cultists that America couldn’t "win" an Iraq civil war. It is, of course, better than in 2006 when even some Bush cultists had to admit we weren’t winning, but the only way to actually save Iraq is for America to leave. But since that would allow us to fight Al-Qaeda (as opposed to AQI) and hurt Iran, I wouldn’t look for Bush to do that, since Bush loves helping AQ and Iran (if he didn’t, he wouldn’t want to stay in Iraq).
 
Written By: T.B.
URL: http://
I don’t know. Do you?
So I take it you didn’t read the report you’re giving me h*ll about? They’re very clear about who is control and what the Iraqis there think about it.

How’d you miss that?
Iran has much more control over Maliki’s "government" than Sadr, who is more of a nationalist (for example, Maliki supports the brutal foreign occupation of Iraq that has helped Iran). Iran’s intentions were far better served by an inconclusive ending; if the fight had gone on, Sadr might have won (bad for Iran).
Yeow. You’re not a "truther" too are you?
Except that since AQI was always a minor factor ...
Oh, man ... if you believe that then you’re simply too uninformed to even waste my time with.

Thanks for stopping by TB - can I suggest Democratic Underground as your next stop? You’ll be welcomed with open arms.

Trust me on that, ’kay?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
TB - do you live in Maine? Could it be that you are a professor at a Maine institute of higher learning? No? Sorry - you sounded just like One of our "Iraq is a policy failure" types that frequent these halls.

By the way - what color is the sky in your world? Just wondering . .
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
You like to spin, don’t you McQ? Maliki demanded the militias disarm. Sadr wanted a cease fire like this one. At first, Maliki didn’t give in, but with Iranian pressure he did. Sadr and the Iranians got what they wanted, the militias were not disarmed, and power did not shift to the government.

And al qaeda in Iraq was always a minor factor, less than 5% of the insurgency were foreign fighters, and the Sunnis never really liked them, the Shi’ites have always hated them. Seriously, five years of death, destruction, children growing up without a childhood, massive costs, and you still are trying to put lipstick on this pig, five years trying to spin anything into good news. It’s breathtaking to watch your exercise in futility. This has been a waste, it has hurt the US, devastated Iraq, and has gone on far longer than the proponents of the war imagined. It’s a big social engineering experiment gone awry, and while you can do your usual to cherry pick news and spin, the reality of dozens dead each day, continued fighting in Sadr city, massive corruption, Sunni tribes in control in Sunni areas, women worse off than under Saddam, the US severely weakened on the world stage, and a lot of pointless deaths cannot be denied.

But in this case TB is right, Iran is the winner here. But spin away McQ, I guess it doesn’t do much harm, you’re mostly preaching to the choir. Anybody who can look at five years of this in Iraq and not conclude the policy is a massive failure simply isn’t in touch with reality.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
T.B.:
So, in summary, Iraq is now worse off than it was in 2005, when it became clear to all but the hard-core Bush cultists that America couldn’t "win" an Iraq civil war. It is, of course, better than in 2006 when even some Bush cultists had to admit we weren’t winning, but the only way to actually save Iraq is for America to leave. But since that would allow us to fight Al-Qaeda (as opposed to AQI) and hurt Iran, I wouldn’t look for Bush to do that, since Bush loves helping AQ and Iran (if he didn’t, he wouldn’t want to stay in Iraq).
Seeking factional stability — like we’ve had here in the U.S. for 220 years — isn’t an attempt to win a civil war. There are no "Bush cultists," or craven neocons. Al Qaeda in Iraq is precisely al Qaeda, as it presents itself in Iraq. And Iraqi Shi’a are not Persian, they are Arabs, mostly, and don’t seek the suzerainty of Iran.

You want the hairball to be far worse than it is, and to give to it every possible bad implication.

But there is no stable "analytical grid" underlying your summary description.

In other words, you’re psychotic.

 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Boris:
But in this case TB is right, Iran is the winner here. But spin away McQ,
Not even within a million parsecs of being right.

Iran’s meddling does not equal Iran winning anything. The Iraqi Shi’a don’t want the Persian thumb on them anymore than Iraqis as a whole want to have the Turks or the Saud Wahhabis in charge.

The Iraqi Shi’a will not trade being dominated by Sunnis for being dominated by Iranian mullahs, and they will come into factional accord with one another.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Boris:
women worse off than under Saddam,
Right, Boris, and Castro is still better than Batista.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
I should have known it couldn’t last. There was a moment, just a tiny moment in time when Erb was on the verge of admitting that there could be a chance, slim though it may be, that this will not end in complete and utter failure as he has preached for these past many years? No, those other academics back there in Maine must have b*tch-slapped his poor *ss back into line for even thinking there might be another way to look at Iraq other than the standard Liberal Narrative. No, Back to the same old Erb.

And this time he brought his retarded cousin TB with him.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
Hey, Erb. Does this mean AFP is to be considered a neocon shill? Seems you said a whole lot about your cousin TB’s whinings but not a word about the AFP report. I guess once one of your so-called non-partisan sites start spouting utterances that go against your precious Liberal Narrative, you throw them under the bus or just choose not to comment about what they have to say.

Typical! And back to true form.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
SShiell:
I should have known it couldn’t last. There was a moment, just a tiny moment in time when Erb was on the verge of admitting that there could be a chance, slim though it may be,....No, Back to the same old Erb.
Yeah, that’s a distinctive Erb feature. I’ve always called that "hitting his reset button."

Does it all the time.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
I should have known it couldn’t last. There was a moment, just a tiny moment in time when Erb was on the verge of admitting that there could be a chance, slim though it may be, that this will not end in complete and utter failure as he has preached for these past many years?
It is important that Americans recognize the failure of the policy of social engineering in Iraq, remember the promises of "over in six months," "oil revenues to pay for the reconstruction," "Iraqis are modern and not sectarian," and "we’ll be greeted as liberators." It’s important people come face to face that the choice to invade — to launch a war of aggression — has had disastrous consequences in real human terms, and to our country, consequences that cannot be undone. This is a message that has to be learned so we can avoid those mistakes in the future.

That said, we can still find a way out of this mess successfully. That won’t undue the failure of policy, but can at least end on a better note. I think that can only be done through regional diplomacy and smart policy. We can’t undue the past, but we can’t sweep it under the rug. We can try to do the best we can from this point moving forward. That’s why those who want to pretend that this hasn’t been a disaster have to be countered, and people have to learn to recognize the truth and deal with it. And every day in my work and personal life, I try to accomplish that. It seems that the 30% who still try to defend a war almost nobody thinks was worth it are getting very bitter and nasty, perhaps because deep down they know that they were wrong, and they just don’t seem to have the intellectual honesty to admit it.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
New logic on battles: We lost the invasion of Normandy because the Nazi were still in charge of Germany when the battle was over.

That said, if the complete destruction and surrender of the Mahdi army was the objective of the operation, then it can only be a limited success. It didn’t fully achieve the objective. However, I seriously doubt the goal was to complete the destruction of the Mahdi army over a week or two. This will be an ongoing campaign, and we will have to judge its success in a few months to a year.

The fact that the ISF took over the city and purged the bad police/army counts for something.

 
Written By: Harun
URL: http://
The fact that the ISF took over the city and purged the bad police/army counts for something.
I doubt very much that’s what has happened. The spinning done on flimsy evidence is pretty intense, and in the past, most such optimistic reports have proven wrong.

I’ve been seeing this for years now, overly optimistic claims being made by those supporting the war, all proving over time to be illusionary. Now that things have gotten to where they were before the Iranian-backed truce this is somehow a major victory? I don’t even think the Mahdi army is being or was significantly weakened. The problem is that the Iranians and various Iraqi groups know far more about the ins and outs of the situation than the Americans, British, and are positioning themselves for power when the US leaves. The level of corruption is intense, and the chances for democracy in this divided country slim. It really is time to cut our loses.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
That said, if the complete destruction and surrender of the Mahdi army was the objective of the operation, then it can only be a limited success.
Well, A) the operation isn’t over and B) you might want to read the same link I left for TB.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
It’s important people come face to face that the choice to invade — to launch a war of aggression
Yeah, right. Rape, pillage, steal their oil.

We launched a war of liberation. It may fail, you could still be right about that, that is yet to be seen.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
I doubt very much that’s what has happened. The spinning done on flimsy evidence is pretty intense, and in the past, most such optimistic reports have proven wrong.
I would say that the positive outlook due to the elections was real. It suffered a real setback, when AQI bombed the Mosque and set Iraq on the road towards (but not reaching) civil war (and no thanks to your kind that civil war was avoided).

You are correct that war supporters have been overly optimistic, at least initially. This hardly indicates you have great insight. You have been, and continue to be overly pessimistic . . . or perhaps optimistic for the other side . . .
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
I love it. McQ cheers on the more pro-Iranian side in the Shia civil war in Iraq.

The mind reels.
 
Written By: mkultra
URL: http://
I must be reading the article different from everyone else here. Doesn’t it just say "People feel safer in Basra than they did last week when there was an army fighting in their streets?" I don’t see any comparison between "now" and "before the ISF invaded".
 
Written By: Noumenon
URL: http://
I must be reading the article different from everyone else here
You’re right — you are reading it differently. Perhaps you failed to read the whole article?
Residents expressed relief at the improved security.

"I am very happy about the situation right now. The deployment of the Iraqi army has made gunmen and gangsters disappear from the streets," said court employee Mahdi Fallah, 42.

"The gangs were controlling the ports and smuggling oil. Now the ports are back in government hands. Everything in Basra is better than before."

Taxi driver Samir Hashim, 35, said he now felt safer driving through the city’s streets and was willing to put up with the traffic jams caused by the many security checkpoints.

"We feel secure. Assassinations have ended, organised crime is finished and armed groups are no longer on the streets," said Hashim.
There is ample ’comparison between "now" and "before the ISF invaded."’
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
A bit of perspective:

Pope Benedict XVI said "nothing positive has come from the Iraq war." The Pope, like his predecessor, values life and sees this war as immoral and wrong.

Yet the Pope is meeting with President Bush today on friendly terms. One can have different perspectives on this conflict and not take it personally, even though some have a hard time with that.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
The mind reels.
In moonbat world, what passes for a mind constantly reels, doesn’t it MK?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Americans recognize the failure of the policy of social engineering
You could have stopped there and have been completely correct.
 
Written By: capt joe
URL: http://
The mind reels
but for MK, it mostly polkas.
 
Written By: capt joe
URL: http://
oil revenues to pay for the reconstruction
There you go Erb .. always worried about getting that Blood for Oil
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
oil revenues to pay for the reconstruction

There you go Erb .. always worried about getting that Blood for Oil
I’m not sure what you mean. I just note that this was the line being sold when people were questioning before the invasion how we would pay for this. That, among almost all the assumptions in 2002 and 2003, was proven wrong.

Blood and Oil
is a good book though, by Michael Klare.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
One can have different perspectives on this conflict
Did the Pope say our soldiers were committing "mass murder"?

There’s a difference between "different perspectives" and psychosis. Of course, that difference is incomprehensible in Erb Logic.
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Did the Pope say our soldiers were committing "mass murder"?
Playing a language game there, JWG? Who said our soldiers were committing mass murder? War itself is an organized form of mass murder, as noted by NYT Pulitzer prize winning reporter Chris Hedges. Anyway,

Here is what the Pope said.

"Enough with the slaughters. Enough with the violence. Enough with the hatred in Iraq!"

Slaughters. Nothing positive from the war. Pretty powerful stuff. But one gets the sense that Catholics and most Christians really don’t care much for the moral teachings of their church — love, peace, kindness even to enemies, turn the other cheek — like those Muslims who ignore the Koran’s teachings to embrace violence, many Christians put politics ahead of faith, and dismiss calls for love and kindness as some kind of spiritual thing with no relevance in the real world. Pretty bizarre.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Please keep the focus of your comments to the article linked by McQ. The post is not about the opinions (good or bad; informed or inchoate) of any of the commenters.

Thanks.
 
Written By: A fine scotch
URL: http://
Please keep the focus of your comments to the article linked by McQ.
LOL! The entire blogsophere sees commentary take off in numerous directions. Trying to keep people on one article or topic is doomed to fail, not just here, but anywhere where there is commentary. Your request is denied, by just about everyone, in just about every blog with comments. (However, rather than bore you with my opinion now, I’ll just link to my blog, as today’s entry is about religion, morality and war.)
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Who said our soldiers were committing mass murder?
You did. Need we drag up that old "most murderous army in history" thread?
War itself is an organized form of mass murder, as noted by NYT Pulitzer prize winning reporter Chris Hedges.
Oh yay, you make an appeal to authority, and you choose a Pulitzer Prize winning NYT reporter as the authority. Hilarious. Hit us with something from Walter Duranty next.

 
Written By: Jordan
URL: http://
Oh yay, you make an appeal to authority
No, an appeal to authority would only be if I were making an argument and saying that this person’s opinion is proof it is true. I’m instead providing an opinion of what war actually is, and pointing to someone who has covered wars for decades and been in some of the worst conflicts on the planet who has that definition. You can choose another definition if you wish.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
War itself is an organized form of mass murder, as noted by NYT Pulitzer prize winning reporter Chris Hedges.
Chris Hedges
Hedges, who is not a pacifist and supports humanitarian interventions, such as those in Bosnia and Kosovo
Whoops! I guess Hedges supports mass murder if the mood is right.

Actually, I wonder if Erb can actually provide a citation for Hedges describing war as "mass murder"?
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Hedges calls war organized mass murder in his book War is a Force that Gives us Meaning, in the first chapter (if you need the page number, I’ll get it for you tomorrow when I’m in my office). He also says it is sometimes necessary. His books are worth reading. Losing Moses on the Freeway talks about the importance of the values entailed in the 10 Commandments, and how losing those values in our modern world create problems. He is a former divinity student who decided to become a reporter rather than a priest, but has a strong moral perspective on how we reflect on our actions. He is an honest, reflective voice grappling with tough moral/ethical issues. I suggest a lot of people, both pro and anti Iraq war, need to move from the political games to tough questions about the morality and ethics of the choices we make. For too many people, it’s just spin to support a policy, perhaps thinking in some deluded way that this helps ’the troops.’
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
if you need the page number, I’ll get it for you tomorrow when I’m in my office
yes, please...because it is not a term he uses in his prolific writing and speaking about war, which seems odd if it is something he believes is true.
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Page 21, though I was wrong about the exact wording, he says "organized murder," not "organized mass murder."

"Most of those who are thrust into combat soon find it impossible to maintain the mythic perception of war. They would not survive if they did. Wars that lose their mythic stature for teh public, such as Korea or Vietnam, are doomed to failure, for war is exposed for what it is — organized murder."

Here is another quote: Page 13-14:

"While we venerate and mourn our own dead we are curiously indifferent about those we kill. Thus killing is done in our name, killing that concerns us little, while those who kill our own are seen as having crawled out of the deepest recesses of the earth, lacking our own humanity and goodness. Our dead. Their dead. They are not the same. Our dead matter, theirs do not. Many Israelis defend the killing of Palestinian children whose only crime was to throw rocks at armored patrols, while many Palestinians applaud the murder of Israeli children by suicide bombers."
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
You need to be careful of accusing US soldiers of committing mass murder. It is not happening. Those soldiers who have not followed the ROE have been prosecuted. (Note: Care to comment on Haditha? And Murtha’s actions regarding same?) Can the same be said for any of our enemies? War has never seen the attention to limitations on civilian casualties like the US practices in Iraq or Afghanistan. In fact many US casualties are as a result of trying to limit the impacts to civilians. Does that mean civilians are not "slaughtered"? No, but the US is not the guilty party. And don’t even start up with the BS argument that the slaughter would not be occurring there if it weren’t for our presence. They were slaughtering each other in droves under the auspices of Sadaam’s government long before we ever got on the scene.

"Organized murder" can also refer to the application of the death penalty. So what? The Pope says to end war. So what? He gets paid to say sh*t like that. Anybody listening? The Pope also says not to kill babies through abortions. What you planning to do about that one? The Pope also says not to practice birth control. Care to go on?

At least the Pope is trying to influence and quell the violence, unlike many Muslim religious leaders who preach war, world-wide Jihad and the massacre of the Jews and other innocents. And it seems like there are a whole lot of Muslims who tend to follow those words of wisdom.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
SShiell, it’s easy for you to sit back and rationalize the war. People in Iraq have had their lives destroyed. Children have been orphaned — thousands — and have had their childhood taken away. Ethnic cleansing has destroyed communities and created deep divisions. Corruption is rampant, women are worse off than they were before the war, and al Sadr continues to win support by giving more aid than anyone else to the poor in the country. War is easy to support from here, we aren’t the ones having our society ravaged by an outside power, we’re not the ones who have a foreign power trying to dictate to us what kind of government we should have (and, of course, the Iraqis aren’t following our dictates — why should they?) The reason the Pope, who is listened to, says nothing positive is coming from this war, that it is not a just war, is because war is death, destruction and evil. At times it may be necessary, but clearly, this time it was not. That is how this war will be remembered, taught, and understood. I think you know that.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
I think you know that.
You have a very bad habit of projecting your values onto someone else. I do not know that. And, truth be told, neither do you. You may think it - may even wish it - but you cannot KNOW it.

For myself, the jury is still out. You may have already made up your mind that this entire episode is a fiasco - I haven’t and your arguments are not persuasive.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://

 
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Slackernomics by Dale Franks

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