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Dems - still in denial
Posted by: McQ on Friday, April 25, 2008

Phenomenal blame shifting occurring in some places still in denial on the left. Reed Hundt provides a typical example:
Clinton did not make a dent in Obama's lead by her win in Pennsylvania but what has happened is that the republican attack machine has begun the swiftboating in the wake of her negative attacks rightly decried by the New York Times.

It is bootless to speculate about the self-destructive tactics of the Clinton camp. What matters is going on the offense against the author of the typically bizarre, distracting, and hideous rightwing attacks: John McCain.
While Clinton's attacks were "negative", John McCain is engaged in "typically bizarre, distracting and hideous rightwing attacks".

He is?

I mean does this qualify as trying too hard? At a minimum it qualifies as an atrocious attempt at spin:
It ought to be beneath senator McCain to have his side label Obama as a terrible person because he has failed to shun a fellow who did wrong 40 years or is not a patriot because he neglected to wear a flag on lapel, or declined to disavow a Korean War vet and pastor because he spoke too harshly one Sunday.
Unless I've been missing something, all of those things were brought up by the media and the Clinton campaign. Frankly I don't remember McCain being involved in any of those things. In fact, I've been rather surprised to see the Republicans sticking pretty hard and fast to the old maxim that there's no reason to murder your enemy when he's busily engaged in committing suicide.

But many on the left just cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that the wounds suffered by the Dems in the primary have been self-inflicted. It is almost a knee-jerk reaction to blame it on the right. The NYT editorial that Hundt references scolds Clinton but attempts to lay off the tactics on Rove.

Rove?! It's as though Bill Clinton never existed.

So what is the purpose of Hundt's little rant? It is a preemptive strike. It's an attempt to frame the upcoming confrontation. It is a very transparent attempt to stop the bleeding by appealing to McCain's "honor" while promising nothing in return:
Hence, it ought to be beneath McCain to tolerate attacks against Obama that closely resemble the despicable charges bush launched against McCain in South Carolina in 2000. It should be the case that McCain doesn't just pretend to stop these attacks, but actually does so. Aside from his laissez-faire positions on Iraq and the economy, McCain's primary disqualification for the oval office is that he knows these vile, crazy attacks are wrong for America but he won't stop them.
Last I heard, McCain had absolutely no control over the Clinton campaign.

Joe Klein answers the questions about flag pins, terrorist friends and racist pastors:
But there is an immutable pedestrian reality to American politics: you have to get the social body language right if you want voters to consider the nobler reaches of your message. In his 1991 book, The Reasoning Voter, political scientist Samuel Popkin argued that most people make their choice on the basis of "low-information signaling" — that is, stupid things like whether you know how to roll a bowling ball or wear an American-flag pin. In the era of Republican dominance, the low-information signals were really low — how Michael Dukakis looked in a tanker's helmet, whether John Kerry's favorite sports were too precious (like wind-surfing), whether Al Gore's debate sighs over his opponent's simple obfuscations were patronizing. Bill Clinton was the lone Democratic master of low-information signaling — a love of McDonald's and other assorted big-gulp appetites gave him credibility that even trumped his evasion of military service.
Simply said, Americans are a nation of bowlers, NASCAR fans and McDonald's patrons. And the "low-information signaling" Popkin talks about is a critical part of their decision making process. They're touchstones, check-offs that get you into the game. Whether politicians or pundits like it or not, that is part of how the voters choose who they want to be president. Voters define what is "mainstream", not politicians. If they find that they're getting mixed signals, they become suspicious and less supportive.

Politicians who wave off little things like "flag pins" as distractions are fooling themselves. Candidates who spend 23 years in a church with a pastor caught on tape yelling anti-American slogans are expected to give an adequate explanation of why they stayed. These may be "distractions" to pundits and politicians, but they don't get to decide what voters find important.

That is what Obama faces now and will continue to face in the general. And trying to lay it off on McCain or Rove isn't going to change that. In fact, trying to wave those things off as "distractions" and right-wing attacks while refusing to address them are a sure way to lose an election.
 
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"political scientist Samuel Popkin argued that most people make their choice on the basis of "low-information signaling" - that is, stupid things like ’Hey, that guy is black!’"
 
Written By: the wolf
URL: http://
Simply said, Americans are a nation of bowlers, NASCAR fans and McDonald’s patrons. And the "low-information signaling" Popkin talks about is a critical part of their decision making process. They’re touchstones, check-offs that get you into the game. Whether politicians or pundits like it or not, that is part of how the voters choose who they want to be president. Voters define what is "mainstream", not politicians. If they find that they’re getting mixed signals, they become suspicious and less supportive.
#1- Al Gore won the popular vote in 2000. Despite having been painted by the corporate media, Washington Post, as somehow not in touch with the regular Joe. The corporate verbal goons talked about Gore’s Earth Tone clothes, mis-stating ad-infinitum his claims about the internet (in fact he WAS involved), and in other ways attacked him at an emotive, instinctive level. Despite the entire smear machine across the country, Gore STILL won more votes.

#2- During the 2000 campaign, the corporate media shills all agreed to makes Bush’s gaffs on the campaign trail disappear from reality. Bush wore rolled up blue sleeves on the campaign trail - there was little talk of Bush being a member of the ruling class - entitled to much, even though his mental gifts and work ethics were abysmal. (But his vacation ethics were phenominal- off the charts)

What is really going on is that the media is intentionally creating emotionally negative connections against Democrats, and praising the Republican candidates as men of the people. It’s pure propaganda Ka-Ka. But propaganda works - ask Moon, Mellon, Murdoch, etc. - so Joe average American gets a steady diet of these negative subliminal emotional tags against Democrats, and so Joe transitions from voting from his Brain (bad economy, how does it affect my family) to voting with his nose ("I don’t know, something smells fishy about him, but I can’t exactly tell you why - Oh, yes, he’s not one of us is the reason.")

That is how millions of American continually vote against their own self-interest - for emotions almost always over-rule logic and reason.

And negative campaigning is nothing if it’s not about creating emotions.
 
Written By: Juan Man
URL: http://
What is really going on is that the media is intentionally creating emotionally negative connections against Democrats


Now that is some funny stuff. It’s great having you here. You make me laugh.
 
Written By: Twizz
URL: http://
That is how millions of American continually vote against their own self-interest - for emotions almost always over-rule logic and reason.
And, if they voted with logic and reason, then, they would obviously vote the way you do.
 
Written By: Is
URL: http://
Now that is some funny stuff. It’s great having you here. You make me laugh.
Yes, trivialization is a form of emotion tagging.

That is the realm in which you have been conditioned to operate.

How very nice of you to admit being AMUSED by my words.


 
Written By: Juan Man
URL: http://
And, if they voted with logic and reason, then, they would obviously vote the way you do.
That would depend.

If I made 400 million dollars a year, I would vote for (actually I could buy) politicians to limit Social Security deductions to say, $90K.

If I made $90K, I would vote to cap Social Security at 400 Billion.

I respect the Waltons fighting like hell to pay as little in taxes as possible to the country which made possible their massive inherited wealth. They are behaving in their own economic self-interests.

I think working people fighting to maintain and grow the Walton’s wealth for them, unpaid, are ... let me be kind here .... I think they are inbeciles.



 
Written By: Juan Man
URL: http://
#1: Gore "in touch" with the regular Joe - are you kidding me? "These corporate shills for Republicans" (which defines you at a level of dumb that makes it almost not worth responding to you), talked about Gore’s dressing habits because he friggin’ had to have someone come and dress him! How do you think that looks to us "regular Joes"? He was, and is, an arrogant, effete snob, and they had to try to dress him down to mask it. It didn’t help, because they couldn’t keep him from talking. It was lipstick on a pig.

#2: Both of the 2000 candidates came from moneyed political families. Unlike Gore however, Bush actually worked in the real world, in the oilfields and owning a baseball team. It doesn’t get much more American than that. [And as a sad and dishreartened Texas Rangers fan, his ownership was the only time my Rangers were even respectable!] Can you tell me something that Gore did other than pull himself up with his Daddies coattails and became another "never had a real job" politician?
What is really going on is that the media is intentionally creating emotionally negative connections against Democrats, and praising the Republican candidates as men of the people. It’s pure propaganda Ka-Ka. But propaganda works - ask Moon, Mellon, Murdoch, etc. - so Joe average American gets a steady diet of these negative subliminal emotional tags against Democrats, and so Joe transitions from voting from his Brain (bad economy, how does it affect my family) to voting with his nose ("I don’t know, something smells fishy about him, but I can’t exactly tell you why - Oh, yes, he’s not one of us is the reason.")
The media is "intentionally creating emotionally negative connections against Democrats"? Really? Um, no, Obama and Clinton need absolutely no help in doing that. In fact, the press has been in the bag for so long for Obama that he can’t handle it when they’re forced to ask him real questions. And with him, these "emotional tags" are coming fast and furious because of his piss poor decisions - a 20 year relationship with an anti-American bigot, a relationship that netted him a house with a corrupt political fixer, a relationship with a friggin’ terrorist. But hey, you go ahead and ignore those "tags" if you want. Add this to what he says and believes (which is what you want me to do right - listen to what he says?), such as "leave Iraq now!" (but no, not really), NAFTA is wrong and should be ended (but Canada, I’m just telling the rubes that to win votes), and I’ll meet with terrorist anti-American nations as equals (that’s not what I meant though!). AND this doesn’t take into account him robbing me blind through his proposed tax policies...

As for Clinton, well, she’s a Clinton. Now you or many like you on the left are saying what many of us on the right have been saying for years. Thanks for finally figuring them out. Come on in - the water’s warm!

But you got one thing right: he’s not one of us. He’s infinitely worse. So keep on with your "What’s the matter with Kansas" fallacy, so y’all can keep on losing elections. Us "average Joes" appreciate it.
 
Written By: Warrior Needs Food Badley
URL: http://
The Popkin dribble is just that voters are, more often than not, wiser than the pundits. They know that most of what the candidates are promising won’t ever happen and what does won’t be recognizable once the bureauacy and Congress are done with it .. so why believe any of the "policy points" ?

Instead, it all comes down to figuring out who this person is ? Whom in their own life this person is most like and whether you believe that person would fight for anything that you just might like.

I used to call this the "Joe 6-pack" test. I try to imagine sitting down with each of the candidates with a 6-pack of beer between us, then I figure out who I might drink it with and who I would most likely show the door.

With the remaining 3 candidates it is .. Obama seems the most likely to ask me if I have any white wine (the door), Hiliary’s shots in PA puts her in the middle and McCain seems the best choice.
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
I respect the Waltons fighting like hell to pay as little in taxes as possible to the country which made possible their massive inherited wealth. They are behaving in their own economic self-interests.

I think working people fighting to maintain and grow the Walton’s wealth for them, unpaid, are ... let me be kind here .... I think they are inbeciles.
And this perfectly defines why effete arrogant snobs continue to lose elections.

Which coast are you on: East or West? I can’t tell if your in NYC or San Francisco. I’m betting San Francisco...
 
Written By: Warrior Needs Food Badley
URL: http://
we’re amused because you keep making outrageous claims without providing even an OUNCE of evidence to back them up.

Gore DID win the popular vote, but LOST the electoral one.

The Media has had a proverbial hard on against Bush since then, stopping briefly during and after 9/11, and picking up again since then. You can see the NYT, CNN, MSNBC: all of ’em are simply rife with attacks against the President and agenda driving for the Democrats.

So yes, forgive us if we laugh at your posts, but considering its ’substance’ is something akin to political Looney Toons, there’s not much else we can do
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
Yes, trivialization is a form of emotion tagging.

That is the realm in which you have been conditioned to operate.

How very nice of you to admit being AMUSED by my words.
You are very amusing. In a sad, hopeless way.
 
Written By: Twizz
URL: http://
#1: Gore "in touch" with the regular Joe - are you kidding me? "These corporate shills for Republicans" (which defines you at a level of dumb that makes it almost not worth responding to you), talked about Gore’s dressing habits because he friggin’ had to have someone come and dress him! How do you think that looks to us "regular Joes"? He was, and is, an arrogant, effete snob, and they had to try to dress him down to mask it. It didn’t help, because they couldn’t keep him from talking. It was lipstick on a pig.

#2: Both of the 2000 candidates came from moneyed political families. Unlike Gore however, Bush actually worked in the real world, in the oilfields and owning a baseball team. It doesn’t get much more American than that. [And as a sad and disheartened Texas Rangers fan, his ownership was the only time my Rangers were even respectable!] Can you tell me something that Gore did other than pull himself up with his Daddies coattails and became another "never had a real job" politician?
#1 - Gore was with the regular Joe’s in Vietnam. He didn’t have to be.
However, white-powder nose Bush supported the war from Texas, then refused to take a drug test. Could no longer fly. Went AWOL. Mommie Nancy not only dressed Ronnie, she managed Ronnie’s schedule according to Ronnie’s Hollywood Horoscope Lady. And why this Regular Joe obsession - are we a Lord of the Flies Nation ?I want my leader to be smart enough NOT to have a beer with me. Who are all these Joe’s who think they can advise a candidate on how to run the country? Get real.

#2 - Bush actually flunked the real world. Arbusto Energy went busto. Couldn’t find oil in TEXAS! He committed security Insider Trading fraud while at Harken Energy. His daddy’s Saudi friends bought Harken when no one else would. He borrowed 600,000 from a daddy’s friend bank with no collateral to "buy into" a partnership to buy the Rangers. He got the Texas legislature to levy a sales tax increase which provided the Rangers with a 150 million dollar gift. His job was the stadium WalMart greeter to paying customers in the stands. He suggested getting rid of Sammy Sosa. He got 12 million dollars for his cut from the 150 million he bilked out of Texans. His daddy got him a job with Carlysle Group. He was canned. His boss said this guy didn’t do a dammed thing. Bush has failed everything he has ever tried - including Nation Building. He ignored dozens of warnings about a pending airline hijacking. The ONLY things Bush did before 9/11 was to forbid Ashcroft from flying US commercial aircraft, and added Don Rumsfeld to the list of people who had to be advised if a US plane was suspected of being hijacked, before planes were scrambled.

The Moat Warriors say either - the Democratic candidate doesn’t have enough experience, or if they do, they never had a real job in their life. Get the idea? Democrats can’t win. But just HATE them all.

Bush’a qualification for the presidency - a few years in the most ceremonial governorship in the U.S. The political power in Texas is in the Legislature, and with the Commissioners. Bush WAS qualified to be a Greeter, and that’s what he was in Texas.

 
Written By: Juan Man
URL: http://
IOW, politicians who over-estimate the intelligence and thoughtfulness of voters get punished. Voters go with emotion and quick bias. That explains a lot about the kind of governance we’ve been getting in past decades. We’re electing the best actors.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
“Two years ago this week, you [Pelosi] stated that House Democrats had a ‘commonsense plan’ to ‘lower gas prices,’ ” the letter said. “In light of the skyrocketing gasoline prices affecting working families and every sector of our struggling economy, we are writing today to respectfully request that you reveal this ‘commonsense plan’ so we can begin work on responsible solutions to help ease this strain.”
Pelosi’s answer is a bit vague.


 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
There’s a popular view among Democrats and the media establishment that the reason for the party’s current disarray is that it just happens to have two most extraordinary candidates: talented, attractive, and in their gender and race, excitingly new. But there’s an alternative explanation, which I suspect the voters have grasped rather better than their necromancers in the media. Both are losers.
They get it in London.
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
IOW, politicians who over-estimate the intelligence and thoughtfulness of voters get punished. Voters go with emotion and quick bias. That explains a lot about the kind of governance we’ve been getting in past decades. We’re electing the best actors.
Yes, emotionless critical analysis is in the best interests of most people.

Making politicians and issues emotional issues favors the best emoters.

(who usually are the biggest phonies. Look at Bill Clinton feeling the pain of the US worker, and them giving them NAFTA.)

Look at Ronald Reagan - making people feel good about freeloading off unborn generations of Americans.

 
Written By: Juan Man
URL: http://
Neo:
They get it in London.
A rare hit on the perfect truth from what was once the UK.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Juan,

I friggin’ love guys like you! It’s amazing to go back through your reply to me and count the BDS-isms in one post! The best part is, you’re refighting a war that you lost! Twice, in 2000 and 2004! And the logic behind it all...amazing. If an incompetent boob such as Bush beat two oh so much more superior candidates in Gore in Kerry, what could possibly be the problem? Oh, wait, it’s stupid, incompetent emotional voters! Love it! We should post your stuff all over the internet! Let the rubes understand how stupid they are for not buying into Obama or Clinton...

wait a minute..

I just realized you didn’t even discuss or refute a single point about the current crop of Democratic hopefuls, which is wha tthis post is all about. Wonder how that happened?

Juan, you need to get yourself back to Daily Kos or DU and get your marching orders on how to make all these stupid and emotional American voters love your Obam(essiah)! And take Erb with you. Maybe together y’all can find a way to tell us in a really great way how stupid we are for the choices we make.

 
Written By: Warrior Needs Food Badley
URL: http://
And take Erb with you. Maybe together y’all can find a way to tell us in a really great way how stupid we are for the choices we make.
I’m not a Democrat nor a Republican. I haven’t voted with the mainstream party on a Presidential choice in a long time, and probably won’t this year. My last vote for a Senator was for a Republican. So please, don’t try to box me in your little left-right dichotomous world.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Boris attempts stand-up:
I’m not a Democrat nor a Republican. I haven’t voted with the mainstream party on a Presidential choice in a long time, and probably won’t this year. My last vote for a Senator was for a Republican. So please, don’t try to box me in your little left-right dichotomous world.
That’s funny as hell, Boris. Now tell them the one about how Castro is still better than Batista. You’ll have them rolling in the aisles.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Scott, please don’t misunderstand: I don’t care if you’re left, right, libertarian, communist, or a neo-fascist Gia worshipper. What you are is arrogant, elitist twit, as simply encapsulated by this:
IOW, politicians who over-estimate the intelligence and thoughtfulness of voters get punished. Voters go with emotion and quick bias. That explains a lot about the kind of governance we’ve been getting in past decades. We’re electing the best actors.
This is why you and Juan need to run off together; so y’all can work out your strategies to call Americans stupid, AND make us want to listen to you and do as you say. Good luck with all that.

Dang, it’s guys like you that make me fear sending my children to universities such as yours. I can only pray (you know that thing us rubes do to a higher power than say, you) that I’ve taught them enough and shown them enough common sense that they laugh at you. Behind your back of course, so you don’t fail them in a fit of pique...
 
Written By: Warrior Needs Food Badley
URL: http://
These may be "distractions" to pundits and politicians...
Yeah, pundits and politicians that are already solidly behind Obama - they are normally called partisans.
 
Written By: bains
URL: http://
What you are is arrogant, elitist twit, as simply encapsulated by this:
I am absolutely convinced my statement is accurate. In fact, there is a lot of evidence to back it up. Apparently to you it doesn’t matter what the truth is, it simply has to be "politically correct" from your perspective. The funny thing is, you’re reacting in a way one would expect from someone just going with their gut, emotionally reacting and not engaging or thinking through something. You prove my point.

I think it’s due to consumerism and mass society, it’s led to politicians selling themselves like products, using focus groups and polls to try to emotionally manipulate voters — and it seems to work, they spend a lot of money on it. I find that to be the real elitism (my blog for March 20th — scroll down if you click the link ’intellectuals and ideology’ — also shows my critique on how elites look at politics).
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Boris:
I think it’s due to consumerism and mass society, it’s led to politicians selling themselves like products, using focus groups and polls to try to emotionally manipulate voters — and it seems to work, they spend a lot of money on it. I find that to be the real elitism (my blog for March 20th — scroll down if you click the link ’intellectuals and ideology’ — also shows my critique on how elites look at politics).
Me, Boris, I blame it on the public schools and, of course, American universities, which hire and give lifetime tenure to people — get this, it’s gonna bowl you right over — don’t even know their own field! How does that work? Well, they’ve got all the right political attitudes. And that creates what passes for higher education in America. This very day.

You should take a look into it: you’ll be amazed.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://mcphillips.blogspot.com/
Who are all these Joe’s who think they can advise a candidate on how to run the country? Get real.
Who are all these candidates that don’t live amongst the rest of us, who have money out the ass, and think they know what’s best for these Joe’s there ranger rick?

American Nobility? Did having lots of cash at their disposal make them smarter than the rest of us or something?

 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
re:
"These corporate shills for Republicans"

Of course they are, that is why journalists have, since 1999, donated a whopping $301,764 to Republicans.
In contrast, they have only donated a miniscule $1,342,900 to Democrats.
http://www.campaignmoney.com/journalists.asp
 
Written By: anonymous
URL: http://
Notice the smuggled premise Juan and the liberals use with this statement.
That is how millions of American continually vote against their own self-interest - for emotions almost always over-rule logic and reason.
Voting for democrat candidates that are going to kill the economy with over regulation, increased taxes, and bad trade policy is certainly not in the average Americans self interest.

Yet somehow juan and his fellow liberals are ignorant of the fact the the democrats policies are bad for the average Americans self interest.
 
Written By: TJIT
URL: http://
"During the 2000 campaign, the corporate media shills all agreed to makes Bush’s gaffs on the campaign trail disappear from reality."

They sure did a lousy job.

"there was little talk of Bush being a member of the ruling class"

You must not have been paying attention. The rest of us heard, ad nauseam, about his daddy buying him a fooball team, etc.

"That is how millions of American continually vote against their own self-interest"

Ah, there is that false consciousness thing again.

"for emotions almost always over-rule logic and reason."

No, they don’t.

"That is the realm in which you have been conditioned to operate."

Not me! I wear my AFDB at all times. It’s obvious that you don’t, however.


"How very nice of you to admit being AMUSED by my words."

I am glad you appreciate that, since that is the kindest thing he could say about them.

"I want my leader to be smart enough NOT to have a beer with me"

Your wish has been granted, no matter who wins.


"Yes, emotionless critical analysis is in the best interests of most people."

Oi vey! Erb $ Juan. It’s a love match. Thank God they can’t breed.

*******************************************
"I can only pray (you know that thing us rubes do to a higher power than say, you)"

Sorry, WNFB, there ain’t no such thing. That’s just more evidence of your emotional need for superstition.

"I am absolutely convinced my statement is accurate."

Hah! See there, Warrior, he has run circles around you logically. You might as well concede defeat.

**********************

"I think it’s due to consumerism and mass society,"

Right. Things were so much better in the good old days, before consumerism and mass society. Folks were much less emotional then, before they were corrupted by Capitalism.



 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Keep in mind the uninformed on both sides rather cancel each other out. For every flag-pin voter there are people who think they really will get "free" healthcare.
 
Written By: Harun
URL: http://
Neo is right. In London, they get it.

Winston Churchill, as aristocratic a politician as you will ever find, also got it:

"At the bottom of all the tributes paid to democracy is the little man walking into the little booth with a little pencil, making a little cross on a little bit of paper. No amount of rhetoric or voluminous discussion can possibly diminish the overwhelming importance of that point."

The democrats are on the way to doing what they do best, looking down on the public. Their signature performance continues to be losing elections.
 
Written By: Arch
URL: http://
Juan:

Two points:

1. Gore went to Vietnam to piss off his father. Unlike the average Joe, Gore (and Kerry too) spent only a third of the standard one year tour in country. The average Joe did not have two body guards. Average Joe went outside the wire. Big Al did not. I’m sure he wrote some fine articles for Stars & Stripes.

2. In 1997 World Series, Cleveland played Florida. The Indians racked up 44 runs to the Marlin’s 36, but they only won 3 of the 7 games. Here in the United States, we don’t elect our president based on popular votes any more than a team wins a series by scoring more runs.

Are these explanations simple enough for you to understand? If not, ask Erb.

 
Written By: Arch
URL: http://
THE US war in Iraq has strengthened its strategic position, especially in terms of key alliances, and the only way this could be reversed would be if it lost the will to continue the struggle and abandoned Iraq in defeat and disarray.
This is certainly different.
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://

 
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