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Bob Barr - Libertarian Party Candidate for President
Posted by: McQ on Sunday, May 25, 2008

Says Radley Balko:
It’s the first time the LP has nominated a serious candidate in a long time. I’ve become rather fond of Barr over his 5-year conversion to libertarianism. Second place went to nutjob Mary Ruwart, who would have continued the party’s long history of kook-ism.

Barr has the potential to win more votes than any LP nominee in history. If he helps the GOP learn that it’s time to boot the neocons and pay more attention to its limited government wing, all the better.

This is a good thing.
You know, it may be. We'll see.
 
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Previous Comments to this Post 

Comments
1) Barr gets FEWER votes than the Green Candidate, betcha...
2) The LP remains an obscure "kook" party.
3) F*ck Radley Balko, and "boot the neocons"...here’s a freak’n new flash Radley for every libertarian in the GOP there are 3 or 4 of US! I understand his frustration but when you start talking about booting people from your coalition and the person talking about "booting" people is a tiny minority it’s (almost) laughable.

And a little more news for Radley...most of us Neocons don’t make the distinction between "limited government" Conservatives and "Neo-Con". He assumes, making an "ass" of himself that we neocons are all in favour of the Prescription Drug Plan and the like...NEWS FLASH Conservatives, are upset with the Free Spending GOP! What Radley doesn’t like to hear is that we Neocons support the War in Iraq and overseas, generally, they we support the Patriot Act AND the War on Drugs...too freak’n bad, Radley, in that case YOU need to leave not me, because I’m willing to bet if it came to a show of hands and a show down...YOU"D be gone, from the Conservative Movement and the GOP.

As far as I’m concerned, Privatize Social Security, allow the Federal Government to fall as a percentage of GNP every year to about 10% of GNP, give me Health Savings Accounts, repeal McCain-Feingold, keep your mitts off the Internet and leave the Fairness Doctrine dead, keep listening in on ’phone calls from overseas or ’phone calls that pass thru US hubs from overseas, keep drugs illegal, keep bustin’ dealers, keep fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan....and if Radley doesn’t like that he can Kiss MY Royal Irish @rse!
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
I now have a candidate I can support.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
McQ:

You’re from around the Atlanta area like I am. Barr couldn’t even win in his newly-constituted district. What has happened in the last few years that makes "his pomposity" any more appealing throughout the country?
 
Written By: vnjagvet
URL: http://www.yargb.blogspot.com
You’re from around the Atlanta area like I am. Barr couldn’t even win in his newly-constituted district. What has happened in the last few years that makes "his pomposity" any more appealing throughout the country?
Don’t know ... that’s why I’ve requested an interview with him through his campaign.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
From what I read here, I trust your judgment McQ. I look forward to getting your impressions.

 
Written By: vnjagvet
URL: http://www.yargb.blogspot.com
..too freak’n bad, Radley, in that case YOU need to leave not me, because I’m willing to bet if it came to a show of hands and a show down...YOU"D be gone, from the Conservative Movement and the GOP.


I don’t consider myself part of either. I sympathize more with the left these days than the right. But if the GOP wants to return to its Goldwater days, I think that would generally be a pretty good thing.

BTW, I’m not convinced Barr will make that happen. I’m just saying that if he does, he’ll have achieved more than any LP candidate since 1980.

Also, if you think there’s no distinction between "neocon" and "limited government" you need to read more. Did you see the recent George Packer piece in the New Yorker where David Brooks called limited government advocates "un-American?"
 
Written By: Radley Balko
URL: http://www.theagitator.com
Barr a serious candidate?
Oh, please.

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
David Brooks called limited government advocates "un-American?"
And Brooks is a Conservative?

And I know you sympathize with the Left more these days, because to you and the enemy is in Town Hall or 1600 PA Ave...because 42 Americans have died in "No Knock" Raids...which is INFINITELY worse than 9/11 or the hundreds of thousands who have their lives ruined by drugs and drug users, you know the children, spouses, and victims of the crimes the druggies perpetrate...But you and the Smellie Hippies keep on worrying about the "militarized" poh-leece and the coming Fascist State.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
BTW, I’m not convinced Barr will make that happen. I’m just saying that if he does, he’ll have achieved more than any LP candidate since 1980.
And Oh WOW what a prediction and endorsement...I don’t know if he will, BUT if he does he COULD have more impact than anyone since since 1980...As Keanu Reeves, says, "Whoa!" Man do you get paid for this work? I mean dude, what a claim, way to go, and put yourself out there...IF he does well, he’ll do well, but if he doesn’t, "No Big Deal."

Dude you should be in the stock market...I think I just talked to Chauncey Gardener, there....

AND you’re not a member of the GOP but you presume to give us advice? That’s rich...OK, here’s a some back at you...I’m not a Libertarian, and have never voted Libertairan and generally find libertarianism to be tiresome, pedanctic, academic, legalistic and useless, positively dangerous outside the 12 Mile Limit of the United States, a mere anti-Marxism in it’s airy theoreticism and utility, BUT nonetheless having said that here’s some advice:
1) Ditch the "Peace Bears" in the LP and Movement;
2) Ditch the tattooed, pierced "delegates";
3) Drop the Gold Standard;
4) Run from Ron Paul;
5) Have no candidates appear on The Alex Jones Show;
6) Ditch the "Legalized Drug" thingee;
7) Realize that Usama and his ilk hate YOU and are the real threat; and
8) Admit that unless you have a working majority in Congress your platform is pointless and will NEVER be implemented, that in fact, you are running a "Kanjorski" Campaign, i.e., stretching the truth as to what is possible in a sad, pathetic attempt to get power or, in your case, notoriety.

There you go, some advice from someone that isn’t a member of your party or movement...I mean it in all the best and most sincere way...you need to become more like the GOP or Movement Conservatives...or does the "advice" arrow only point one way, "You GoP’ers need to become more LP, and ditch the majority of your base." Good advice, that way the GOP can be just like the LP, a permanent MINORITY...but like the LP or the old Liberal Party in England, it can be while lot more fun, because it will never have to govern. And not governing but being fun and pure is a whole lot easier than doing something. (Which is why the GOP Base/Conservative Base was/is so hacked off at Congress, we had power to DO things, not harass pages and pass ear-marks, and contest search warrants issued on corrupt DEMOCRATIC Congress persons!)
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Radley, you may infer that David Brooks meant limited government or that he implied people wanted nanny-statism, but what he said was "anti-government", not "limited government". I will agree that Brooks’ does suggest the people want government "to do things" and framed in this Packer assessment, it sounds like he means big government, but it’s not necessarily true Americans think being for limited government is "un-American". I think it’s a mis-read of the public.

There is another problem I think you have here. You say,

"Also, if you think there’s no distinction between ’neocon’ and ’limited government’ you need to read more. Did you see the recent George Packer piece in the New Yorker where David Brooks called limited government advocates ’un-American?’"

I think your comparison is the opposite of what you think, unless you mean that the neocons are for big government in the most basic and essential responsibility given to it by the Constitution, i.e., defending the country, when we are at war. Neocons have little connection to a nanny-state domestic policy and there would be little reason to oust them unless you believe it is because they are neglecting the growth of big government in that area.
 
Written By: Dusty
URL: http://
Joe,

You are a member of that sad species of conservatives who loses contact with the facts on the ground when it comes to the war on some drugs.

1.) The drugs have won the war. The only thing to be decided is how much collateral damage dead enders like you want to cause in the pursuit of a lost cause.

2.) In spite of decades of increasingly draconian enforcement efforts drugs are easily available at cheaper prices. Clear evidence that drug prohibition, like alcohol prohibition, is a massive failure.

3.) Nothing has done more damage to conservative policy ideas then the drug war.

An example of this is Gonzales v. Raich.

This drug war case buried the efforts of conservatives to use the commerce clause to help restrain an ever expanding federal bureaucracy. The ruling was made possible by the liberal justices in the ninth circuit. It was confirmed by the liberal justices on the supreme court because it provided them a perfect case that allowed them to kill commerce cause cases that conservative could use as an effective tool against an ever expanding and invasive federal bureaucracy.

But some people allegiance to the war on some drugs causes them to check their conservative principles at the door on any subject related to the war on some drugs.
 
Written By: TJIT
URL: http://
Joe:
...because 42 Americans have died in "No Knock" Raids...
I’m not going to try to update or verify that number, or to sort out how many were innocent victims of typos on warrants sending cops to the wrong address or whatever. I’m just wondering if you accept all the no-knock mishaps up to and including these deaths as collateral damage in the war on drugs, unfortunate perhaps but nonetheless unavoidable. Do you?
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
Dusty,

You need to read more of what the neocons are writing these days. Their love of big government goes well beyond foreign policy. Brooks, Michael Gerson, and the Weekly Standard in general have been quite sympathetic to massive government intervention in all sorts of domestic policy, so long as government is intervening to promote their own sorts of values. In other words, they’re not anti-big government. They’re just against big government that promotes liberalism.

Joe,

Your hysterical raving and fondness for the all-caps key has convinced me. Where do I sign up for neoconservatism?

Also, enjoy your Obama presidency and Democratic supermajority. Remember over the next four years that your people and the policies you favor will have made it possible.
 
Written By: Radley Balko
URL: http://www.theagitator.com
Joe,

Your hysterical raving and fondness for the all-caps key has convinced me. Where do I sign up for neoconservatism?

Also, enjoy your Obama presidency and Democratic supermajority. Remember over the next four years that your people and the policies you favor will have made it possible.

Sign up Radley I told you what most Conservatives want....you just don’t like hearing WAR ON DRUGS...some how that seems to just drive you crazy, And so voting for Barr will STOP Obama and his super-majority? Or are you suggesting that the GWoT and the WoD and the Patriot Act made it all possible? Your logic is impenetrable, but thanks for the snark…

Yes Linda, ask Radley he’ll tell you all about the FORTY-TWO people who died in No Knock Raids...of course he never mentions the 1,200 who died in the exact same time period from "Hot Pursuits" because well, they don’t usually involve the War on Drugs. So you tell me which is worth getting excised about 42 folks dead, tragically, or 1,200?

And yes, 42 dead people over 25 years is a fairly low number.....

 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
And Radley whilst we’re at it…”What’s a Neo-Con?” Do you mean the traditional definition, Liberal Internationalists who left the Democratic Party in the post-1968 era, exemplified by Jeanne Kirkpatrick and William Kristol…or is this the catch-all term for those vaguely Jewish or who support the War on Terror or who don’t agree with making 2/3 of the Federal Government obsolete or who generally are libertarian/Libertarian? It’s the sort of question we might profitably explore? Because the Traditional Neo-Cons were NEVER the Conservative Movement or a majority of it….
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Sorry, but the Libertarian Party is composed of nutjobs, one and all.

And Bob Barr fits right in with them. His post-9/11 nutjobbery has made him a perfect candidate for that party of loons.

If Barr gets .1% of the vote or more, I will be shocked.
 
Written By: James Marsden
URL: http://
3) Drop the Gold Standard;
Joe - I’m curious why you bring this up. The other points are debatable, but to me, the gold standard is not. The tenuous deck of cards our current American empire is built on will come crashing down. Our monetary policy is a joke. The only solution currently being offered is ’print more money!’. Why not look back to the gold standard?
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
meagain:
Nothing personal, but the GOLD STANDARD!?!?! Just some random thoughts:
1) What if the total value, to buy the United States, lock, stock and barrel is $45 Trillion dollars, but the value of gold, you know the basis of the new economy, is only $30 Trillion? Well the answer is, DEFLATION, you know the opposite if INFLATION, the thing the Gold Standard is going to combat…So when you have to repay your mortgage in deflated dollars, have fun..you know when the $100,000 you owe is now the equivalent of $150,000? Just one little point there…
2) And then what takes the place of the Federal Reserve System…would that be the Libertarian dream of PRIVATE money? I mean is that the goal, as I understand libertarianism? So we all not only get to have deflation, potentially, we also get the “fun” of a monetary system based on 300 million individual monetary systems. That’s going to be an extremely interesting time. Are you sure that the turmoil is going to be worth it? All those IOU’s to be evaluated…
3) Which leads to my last point…The US and Britain had a Gold Standard, from the Restoration-on…And yet banks went bankrupt and financial turmoil ensued and much inflation, why? Because the King, who minted GOLD COINS, debased His coinage….Yes, that’s right “unsound” money, and it wasn’t Fiat money. And in the US wildcat and independent banks, unregulated went bust taking away people’s life savings.

Bottom-line: The Gold Standard is a panacea. “Sound Money” is the result of interest rates to control inflation, not printing money to make ends meet and a national government that spends money well and within it’s means, whatever that may mean….Sound money, a la Kublai Khan, can be fiat money or it can be golden guinea’s…and unsound money can be trimmed, adulterated tuppence or devalued Reich Marks.

Sorry, but the love affair with The Gold Standard that libertarians have is a pipe dream, a hope for a “machine” that can not be broken, that will allow for sound economic underpinnings, without any real effort by the body politic. Perpetual Motion Machine of sound money, it doesn’t exist. The Classic Gold Standard, 1700-1918 operated because the British Government and the Bank of England made it happen and the global conditions were conducive to its maintenance. Britain made the Gold Standard; the Gold Standard did NOT make Britain.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Joe:
[Balko] never mentions the 1,200 who died in the exact same time period from "Hot Pursuits" because well, they don’t usually involve the War on Drugs. So you tell me which is worth getting excised about 42 folks dead, tragically, or 1,200?
Well, Joe, even together they don’t add up to the toll of 9-11, which you mentioned earlier as a standard against which to measure the loss of innocent lives to botched no-knock raids. So I guess in your view anything beyond acknowledging them as “tragically” dead would just be a waste of our sympathies. And questioning the rise of methods that will certainly augment their number is likely just counterproductive — if not downright unpatriotic — when you consider that this is war.
And yes, 42 dead people over 25 years is a fairly low number.....
But what great good has been accomplished to make those deaths — and the reckless tactics that bring them about — somehow tolerable? Earlier you mentioned the “hundreds of thousands who have their lives ruined by drugs and drug users.” That’s with this war ongoing, unabated. Do you think the toll would mount into the millions but for the burgeoning use of SWAT teams to seize suspected — suspected — drug users as they and their families — or the unlucky next-door neighbors’ families — wake terrified in the middle of the night?
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
Well Linda IF 42 people (over 25 years) dead is something we need to be "concerned" about, how about the THOUSANDS, who die each YEAR from medical malpractice or misfeasance or mis-diagnosis or mistreatment? And if 42 folks over 25 years is something to get excited about, then WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT SHARK ATTACKS! Because shark attacks kill more people per year than No-Knock Raids...in short I’d say if 42 people is a problem, THEN we have a whole lot more problems to be concerned with, wouldn’t you? It’s all about priorities isn’t it? Or in Radley and mayhap yours, all about the War on Drugs...That’s his bug-a-boo and so these 42 people are "martyrs", almost the victims of Dresden as it were in this illegal, immoral, unjust, unproductive, and fattening War on Drugs we’re "waging." It’s not the numbers, for Radley, it’s the whole idea of the WoD…so he pounds the drum about Corey May, and “No Knock” Raids, and Militarye-zayshyun of the Poh-Leece in hopes of achieving what he really wants the end of the WoD. And if, he succeeds, and 1 person a year dies in “No Knock” raids thereafter, ole’ Radley ain’t gonna be nearly so concerned. Bottom-Line: here, if you and Radley think 1.68 fatalities per year or about death per 595 therapeutic misadventure is bad, then you have a very low threshold for mistakes and you really need to examine that threshold and where other life misadventures score…or just be honest and admit that this has NOTHING to do with dead people and everything to do with the legalization of drugs.

And don’t try the Straw Man of “All or Nothing”…you can complain about No Knocks and there are some ideas available that would alleviate many of the problems. But that’s not Radley’s goal is it? He wants to end the WoD and and to end No Knocks in that War. Certainly there are a number of statutory changes that could be made to No Knock Raids that would limit there number and limit there potential for damage. By making LEO’s responsible for ALL property damage and legal costs associated with mis-executed No Knocks. Further, by making LEO’s subject to punitive damages from No Knocks correctly carried out, i.e., we got the right address, but which turn up no trafficking amounts of drugs, if these raids are based SOLELY on the word of street informants…We would require the LEO’s to attempt to purchase drugs from the address or to confirm, thru other means, that the address was a trafficking site, OR the LEO could face severe financial repercussions. Once things like this are in place, AND a few LEO’s get hit by multi-million dollar wrongful death suits and the like, you can bet that the insurers and under-writers of municipal liability insurance will begin to really jack the premiums up, forcing local governments and LEO’s to examine the number and manner of their No Knock Raids. But I notice that Radley is strangely silent on solutions…oh that’s because Radley isn’t interested in reforming but ABOLISIHING. But Radley never talks about solutions, only the problem…and he wants the “problem” to seem vast, but it’s only 42 people over 25 years…See that’s a REAL problem where I sit…it’s like 5 gallon paint buckets killing kids, when they’re full of water…sure it’s a problem, but a very small problem, one that doesn’t merit some giant solution…so too No Knock Raids. They’re not the problem Radley wants you to think they are and they have some solutions that aren’t particularly dramatic, but that will work.

I don’t live in fear of a No Knock Raid…and most of us don’t Linda….”Millions may wake up terrified” by police raids, but in a nation of 300 MILLION folks, “millions and millions” of folks will “suffer” from any number of problems, every day. Millions go to bed hungry, millions go to bed angry, and millions go to bed addicted…see if we play the “millions and millions” game ANYTHING can be a “problem.” I don’t think a very large percentage of the US population goes to bed thinking, the Cops may bust in my door, at any moment….In fact, I’d say a far larger percentage are worried about the fact that the person coming thru their door may be a crack head looking to get enough money for another score.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Joe - too much caffeine yesterday? Man - you’re on the war path.

Re - the gold standard. Yes, I understand that there is no simple solution like snapping our fingers or clicking our heels, but don’t you believe money should be tied to something of value? As for the Federal Reserve, I’m starting to be of the opinion (one I’m sure to be crucified for) that it is private banking in general that has caused the problems. To me, it does not make sense that the government borrows money that does not exist (fractional reserves) from a private entity, and then pays interest on that ’fake’ money to a private institution. Do I know what the answer is? Nope, but I’m willing to discuss the problem.

Re - no knock searches. Wow, you really lost me on that rant. I read what you wrote and shook my head the whole time wondering what kind of tirade you would go off on if it was your mother who was killed in one of those raids. Or one of your children.
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
Joe:
shark attacks kill more people per year than No-Knock Raids
Sharks are not equipped and trained on the public dime and, at least in those old SNL skits, they knock on your door and wait for you to open it before they come crashing in.
I’d say if 42 people is a problem, THEN we have a whole lot more problems to be concerned with, wouldn’t you?
It’s all well and good for you not to put these shooting deaths — of innocent people by police who’ve invaded their homes unannounced in the middle of the night – on your list of things to seek justice for. But why does it so offend you when someone else takes it up?
Bottom-Line: here, if you and Radley think 1.68 fatalities per year or about death per 595 therapeutic misadventure is bad…
Are you calling drug raids therapeutic misadventures or are you trying, for some reason, to relate the number of innocent people killed annually in botched SWAT team raids to the number of deaths attributed to abuse of drugs? And why am I trying to make any sense of that at all?
… then you have a very low threshold for mistakes
Seems to me like you have a very high tolerance for riot-equipped minions of the state barreling in to the houses of innocent people and blowing their heads off.
Certainly there are a number of statutory changes that could be made to No Knock Raids that would limit there number and limit there potential for damage.
The ideas and dynamics you mention sound interesting and promising. I’m all for more of them faster.
"Millions may wake up terrified” by police raids
If that’s supposed to be a quote of something I said, it’s not. I said nothing like that.
I don’t think a very large percentage of the US population goes to bed thinking, the Cops may bust in my door, at any moment
Me neither. But an ever-increasing number of us get surprised.
a far larger percentage are worried about the fact that the person coming thru their door may be a crack head looking to get enough money for another score.
Another upshot, arguably, of the war on drugs and certainly a primary reason that these no-knock raids are so apt to turn tragic. Who do you think Kathryn Johnston believed she was firing on?
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
Re - no knock searches. Wow, you really lost me on that rant. I read what you wrote and shook my head the whole time wondering what kind of tirade you would go off on if it was your mother who was killed in one of those raids. Or one of your children.
Not difficult to understand...42 people died over the last 25 years, to Radley it’s AWFUL, to anyone else in comparison to other accidents, it ain’t so awful....And to put your spin on it, what if it was YOUR mother that died in a hot pursuit or because of medical mal-practice, and then realize that more people’s mothers died from THOSE events than died from No Knock Raids, then tell me which one we should focus on. Thankfully my mother didn’t die in one, and more than likely neither did yours or Radley Balko’s, so we can dispense with the emotion and address the issue and the numbers....
It’s all well and good for you not to put these shooting deaths — of innocent people by police who’ve invaded their homes unannounced in the middle of the night – on your list of things to seek justice for. But why does it so offend you when someone else takes it up?
1) It’s a spurious crusade, aimed not at No Knocks, but at the War on Drugs
2) Because it is such a silly crusade at that, 42 people killed in 25 years, is hardly the end of the Universe, is it? Radley can pound the drum all he wants to, but please don’t expect me to lay back and let him bring up silly points for free.
Are you calling drug raids therapeutic misadventures or are you trying, for some reason, to relate the number of innocent people killed annually in botched SWAT team raids to the number of deaths attributed to abuse of drugs? And why am I trying to make any sense of that at all?
Therapeutic misadventure is when your doctor cuts on the wrong leg...and my point is there are far more therapeutic misadventures in medicine than Law Enforcement so if you’re going to get all upset about a fairly low rate of therapeutic misadventure in one area I can hardly wait to hear your response for the much higher rate in other areas.
Seems to me like you have a very high tolerance for riot-equipped minions of the state barreling in to the houses of innocent people and blowing their heads off.
Again do I or do you have an artificially LOW threshold? After all if 42 deaths are bad, as I keep pointing out, then how much worse is 1,200 killed in Hot Pursuit? That’s what "I’m on about" you and Balko keep acting as if this 42 person number was the end of the world, but seemingly just brush past the glaring fact that if 42 is bad then 1,200 must be far worse and the tens of thousands maimed and killed by their doctors must be a veritable Holocaust!
Me neither. But an ever-increasing number of us get surprised.
That’s the crux of the problem with this so-called "problem" the numbers and stat’s involved...so if .01% of us go to bed worried about the Poh-leece last year and this year .02% of worry, the number of worriers has DOUBLED, but it’s still an incredibly low number. Sorry if this crimps your outrage.
Who do you think Kathryn Johnston believed she was firing on?
Non sequitur, isn’t it? How does this relate? She thought she was shooting at some crack heads come to rob her! And the fact that it was a No Knock wouldn’t have made that much difference in her fear would it? In fact, with or without the WoD she would have been fearful it was crack heads. That’s why your argument is silly...she feared it was crack heads, and if crack legal she’d still have feared it was crack heads..because crack heads don’t rob people because crack is illegal, but because it’s what crack heads DO...they aren’t prevented from being investment bankers and securities lawyers because crack is illegal, but because they are loser addicts who prey on those they think they can in order to feed their sad addiction and prolong their sad, pathetic lives. And with or without the Wod or with or without No Knock Raids, Ms Johnson would have been living in fear of the crack heads.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Just to stir the pot a bit, am I to assume that those who oppose the WoD because of 42 wrongful deaths also oppose the war in Iraq because of even more wrongful deaths due to No Knock (air)Raids? That would seem to be a consistent position.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
but don’t you believe money should be tied to something of value?
What is Gold’s value? Take a sack full of authentic Gold Krugerrands to Papua New Guinea or to the Yanomami in Brazil and see what they buy you. Now take an iron implement or a saw to them, man you get the hawtest babe in the tribe! Gold is just one, artificially selected material, which we use as a basis for commodity trades.

The US Dollar is derives it’s "value" from the size of the US economy, its productiveness, and it’s stability....The USD is valuable because the US is 25-30% of the World’s GDP, will be here tomorrow, and will be growing at an annualized rate of 2-3% per year....THAT makes it a valuable piece of paper! Not any gold reserves that the US or other nations may hold.

If civilization collapses tomorrow, say due to the dreaded Zombie Attack, how much do you think Gold will be worth? "Oh dude let me in your compound, I’ve got Gold?" Or "Dude let me in your compound because I’m Hawt/have a flame thrower/5,000 rounds of ammunition/know where 6 months of food may be procured."

Again, Gold is a panacea...it’s what Libertarians confuse with sound money...they confuse the effect with the cause. Britain had the Gold Standard AND sound money, but previous to that had a gold-based coinage and UNSOUND money. It wasn’t/isn’t the gold that made the money sound, the economy strong, and the inflation low, it was governmental/banking policy! Libertarians, have in this instance, fallen for the simple fix..."Britain had the Gold Standard from 1714 to 1918, it must have been the Gold Standard that produced the astonishing economic growth of that era, so therefore if WE adopted the Gold Standard we would have the same benefit." NO, Britain prospered because the government governed well and the British economy innovated and added value...it happened Britain had the Gold Standard, with or without the Gold Standard Britain would have been an economic powerhouse...just as it was an economic/fiscal basket case under the Stuarts, even though they used gold as the basis for their money, as well. It’s the government, and the banks, and the economy that make a currency valuable, not gold or silver.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Just to stir the pot a bit, am I to assume that those who oppose the WoD because of 42 wrongful deaths also oppose the war in Iraq because of even more wrongful deaths due to No Knock (air)Raids? That would seem to be a consistent position.
I’d say that’s a qualified "Yes". Most Libertarians oppsoe the War in Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
In fact, with or without the WoD she would have been fearful it was crack heads... And with or without the Wod or with or without No Knock Raids, Ms Johnson would have been living in fear of the crack heads.
So what in your assessment is the point of the war on drugs and the no-knock raids, if you think things are pretty much the same, with or without them? Is it all to prove that people like Miss Johnston have not only the crackheads to fear, but also the cops who use them as anonymous informants?
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
No Linda without the WoD it’d be worse...not for Ms Johnson, she’s dead, but for the rest of folks like Ms Johnson. You see I don’t buy the "Victimless Crime" argument about the WoD...the Spouses, the children; the neighbors are ALL victims of the drugs. Ms Johnson lived in fear of crack heads and dealers, and the WoD drugs didn’t create crack heads and dealers...you take the SWAT team away, you take the No Knock away, you take the War on Drugs away and Ms. Johnson is STILL living with the dealers and crack heads...she didn’t keep the gun to ward off the COPS, but her neighbors.

So let me get this straight, 42 people over 25 years is bad, so 40,000-plus people in less than a year is what? I and the French People and Republic would like to know so they can seek the proper level of redress at the UN for the losses the US inflicted on France in 1944, alone, whilst liberating France.

Call a spade a spade, you and Radley want to legalize drugs...you’ll say anything and make anything an issue to achieve that end. Because otherwise your complaints about Ms Johnson and No Knocks just don’t stand up to a lot of actual scrutiny...I figure 2 or 3 "Ms Johnson" die in Atlanta at the hands of the crack heads, every year...what do you propose for them? You seem selectively unhappy and outraged in your choice of "victims"...only the ones killed by the cops count, right, everyone else; well that’s a "shame, but...”

Just like Liberals and the US, right...Idi Amin kills a few tens of thousand or so of his people, no biggie, but US doesn’t fund enough AIDS research! "RACISM...GENOCIDE” Saddam Hussein kills 500,000-1,000,000 brown people, "oh well", let 17 people die at Haditha..."OUTRAGE."

That’s what’s happening here, right...if Ms Johnson had had here door kicked in by three thugs looking for cash well that would be a tragedy, one fuelled, in fact, by the WoD, because the WoD makes drugs cost more than they should and so the thugs have to rob more than they should, unless of course you’re advancing the WoD has failed because drugs are SO CHEAP (see above). But any way, it’s the WoD fault, more or less, not the thugs fault...unless the three thugs are Cops, and then Katie-Bar-the-Door ’cuz Linda and Radley are a mountin’ their high horses to proclaim the wrong!

Bottom-Line: selective outrage...Lemonghello or Bubba do it, "Oh well, Ho Hum"...Officer Friendly does it; high dudgeon!
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
...you take the SWAT team away, you take the No Knock away, you take the War on Drugs away and Ms. Johnson is STILL living with the dealers and crack heads
But still — I mean, ’scuse me, STILL — living nonetheless. And in your telling the dealers and heads continue to thrive no matter. So, again, how do you figure things would be worse without the war on drugs?
42 people over 25 years is bad, so 40,000-plus people in less than a year is what? I and the French People and Republic would like to know so they can seek the proper level of redress at the UN for the losses the US inflicted on France in 1944, alone, whilst liberating France.
Let’s see. The dealers and the users are like the Third Reich, and the guys who suit up, batter down the door at 3:00 a.m., throw Grandma to the floor and keep their guns trained on the kids are like the American soldiers who liberated France. Oookay.

If the collateral deaths of 40,000 Americans not involved with drugs could end, once and for all, the use by other Americans of all illicit drugs, would you approve?
I figure 2 or 3 "Ms Johnson" die in Atlanta at the hands of the crack heads, every year...what do you propose for them?
A taste of their own medicine. The killing, not the crack.
if Ms Johnson had had here door kicked in by three thugs looking for cash well that would be a tragedy, one fuelled, in fact, by the WoD [...] But any way, it’s the WoD fault, more or less, not the thugs fault...unless the three thugs are Cops...
It’s like you were just born to blather on and on with no regard at all to what you’re actually saying.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
"but don’t you believe money should be tied to something of value?"

I hope the ’full faith and credit’ of the US has some value. It seems to me that the price/value of the dollar is determined by the market, not its relationship to gold, silver, or anything else. Print more of them and the value goes down, whether backed by gold or not. It has not been that long since the dollar was backed by, and convertible to, gold. The French laughed all the way to the bank—the Federal Reserve bank, where they bought gold at the official rate of $35/oz. and sold it on the world market for its much higher real price.


One of the things I am still curious about is the Libertarian position on drug use by and drug sales to children. The only thing I remember reading is some rather fanciful idea that the free market of legalized drugs would somehow discourage such sales.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
It’s like you were just born to blather on and on with no regard at all to what you’re actually saying.
I take it "blather on" means to disagree with Linda...
A taste of their own medicine. The killing, not the crack.
Yeah but they don’t GET a taste of their own medicine usually Linda, sadly...they just keep preying on their neighbors. Yeah it WOULD be nice if the Ms Johnsons of the world dealt with the crack heads and dealers summarily, and cheaper, too, but sadly in the real world it just doesn’t work out that way. The dealers and crack heads have the imitative and the fire arms and the plain nastiness to generally beat down the Ms Johnsons of the world...

But to summarize your hope is end the No Knocks and then HOPE Ms Johnson can deal with the crack heads on her own...sure she won’t be able to, BUT she’ll be safe from the Poh-leece. She still won’t be safe in her own neighborhood, but look on the bright side, she’s safe from the 1,000 or so Poh-leece, too bad she she’s not safe from the 10,000 or so thugs, eh?

But can’t make a Libertarian omelet without breaking a few eggs, can we?

 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
I take it "blather on" means to disagree with Linda...
Try: To disagree with statements you fabricate and then misattribute to me and to skirt around the things I actually do say, whilst ignoring, particularly, the questions I ask. And to make no sense whatever in the process.
But to summarize your hope is end the No Knocks and then HOPE Ms Johnson can deal with the crack heads on her own...sure she won’t be able to, BUT she’ll be safe from the Poh-leece.
Like that.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
I haven’t fabricated anything, Linda...and I note you don’t respond to the point that you and Radley want to legalize drugs, not simply amend searches...As I say, I’d say the problem resides on you and Radley’s side of the table, you are making a case out of a very small something...

So she’ll be safe from the police, sadly that really doesn’t improve her safety or those like her, in general. You seem to think like Progressive Blacks, that the police are the threat to young black men, when the reality is that young black men are a threat to other young black men...in this case young black men are a threat to their neighbors, far more so than the Poh-leece. So the Ms Johnsons of the world will be safe(r) from a very small threat to their lives and property, the police. IF, the ending of No Knocks or the WoD makes the ’hood even more unsafe, then we will not have improved her OVERALL safety, either.

Again, though as I said, we can’t make a libertarian omelet without breaking a few Ms Johnson eggs can we?
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
we can’t make a libertarian omelet without breaking a few Ms Johnson eggs can we?
You haven’t, like, been breaking them against your forehead or anything, have you?
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
Good response Linda, it was well-reasoned and supported by a great deal of evidence. So I take it that this is basically, "OK, I have no evidence, I really can’t make an argument, but I can sling an insult." Thank you for playing, when you and Radley have a theory/argument (Why 42 deaths in 25,000 incidents is worse than 1,200 deaths from other police activities, or several thousand deaths from vaccination programs, or several TENS of thousands of deaths on the Interstate Highway System-all government mandated programs) that can be supported by some facts, please feel free to come back, and until then please enjoy the beautiful summer weather.

Also, along with the heaping portions of outrage, a few suggested solutions would be appreciated. Simply screaming, “OMG there’s a problem” is not as useful as you might think.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
If "Joe" did not exist, then it would have been necessary for Patrick Frey to invent his little hick ass.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
ANOTHER well reasoned response, in the long line of Beck well-reasoned responses...It’s hard to believe that An-archo-Capitalism has not swept the nation with the likes of Beck and Niclolayev to spread it’s cheerie Gospel with their wit and wisdom....
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Billy:
If "Joe" did not exist...
Unfortunately, when it comes to incapacity for reason, indifference to freedom, and enthusiasm for the franchise, “Joe”s seem to exist in daunting abundance.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
Unfortunately, when it comes to incapacity for reason, indifference to freedom, and enthusiasm for the franchise, “Joe”s seem to exist in daunting abundance.



Funny for an incapacity to reason Linda Morgan scores well, I’d say...I mean can’t seem to get her head around the fact that 42 foks in 25 years is hardly an Earth-shattering public policy problem...
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
"indifference to freedom"

I think it is more likely to be the realization that chaos or anarchy is not a particularly desireable way to live, particularly for us non-Rambo types. I know it is very romantic and heroic and all, but I got too old for all that stuff a long time ago. Life in the jungle is for the young.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
"indifference to freedom"

I think it is more likely to be the realization that chaos or anarchy is not a particularly desireable way to live
Calling into question police reliance on unannounced, violent entry into the homes of sleeping families for purposes of such trivial import as the service of warrants to search for misdemeanor amounts of drugs is not an invitation to chaos. Holding police personnel and police departments reasonably accountable when ill-considered tactics and procedural sloppiness lead to the deaths, injuries or just general terrorizing of entirely innocent and inoffensive citizens inside their own homes is hardly the hallmark of anarchy in the streets.

They’re exercises of plain prudent common sense aimed at preserving the freedoms and asserting the rights that visionary people risked their lives to secure and laid down their lives to defend for those of us lucky enough to live in America.
Life in the jungle is for the young.
Well, have a nice dotage under tyranny then.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://
"May your chains rest lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."

Bloody fools.
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
"Holding police personnel and police departments reasonably accountable..."

No argument there, but I don’t think that requires legalizing drugs, and I don’t think Joe was advocating giving the police carte blanche, either.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
"Well, have a nice dotage under tyranny then."

A bit hysterical, don’t you think?
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
"Holding police personnel and police departments reasonably accountable..."

No argument there, but I don’t think that requires legalizing drugs
If you review my several comments here, you may note that I have not advocated legalizing any drugs.
A bit hysterical, don’t you think?
No, but considering your fear that taking responsibility and reining in the robocops will lead to chaos, you probably know more about hysteria than I.
 
Written By: Linda Morgan
URL: http://

 
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