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A "good" shooting
Posted by: McQ on Monday, July 07, 2008

The scenario:
According to Plantation police, two armed men barged into the Subway at 1949 Pine Island Road shortly after 11 p.m. Wednesday, demanding money from the employee behind the counter. When they tried to force John Lovell into the bathroom, he pulled out a gun and shot both men, police said.

Donicio Arrindell, 22, was shot in the head and later died at the hospital. Fredrick Gadson, 21, was shot in the chest and ran from the Subway, but police found him in hiding in some bushes on the property of a nearby BankAtlantic.
The complaint:
The family of one of the men who was shot by a retired United States Marine while they attempted to rob a Subway sandwich shop said the customer shouldn't have pulled the trigger.

[...]

"He should not have taken the law in his hands," said Rosa Jones, Gadson's grandmother.
Discussion:

Now, while I understand Ms. Jones desire to have her grandson among the living, this particular case addresses the fallacy of believing self-defense is "taking the law into your hands".

When you are threatened with deadly force the proper defense is to use the same level of force, if necessary, to protect yourself.

That has absolutely nothing to do with "the law" or who should be abiding by it. Obviously Ms. Jones grandson had no use for the law as demonstrated by his actions and he certainly wasn't abiding by it. But she insists that Mr. Lovell's job was to do so.

I don't think so.

If Mr. Lovell had a job at all, it was to defend his own life from what he considered an imminent threat. It's that "inalienable right" we've talked about so often. He, and everyone, enjoys - by right - that sphere of moral authority which empowers him to act without anyone's permission to protect his own life.

Ms. Jone's grandson threatened Mr. Lovell's life with a deadly weapon, whether he pulled the trigger or not. Her grandson had no problem waving around a gun and threatening the workers and customers in the shop with possible death if they didn't comply with his orders (and offering no assurance they'd live even if they did comply with his orders). Mr. Lovell obviously took the threats seriously and met the threat to his life with the only means available to him at the time. He pulled his handgun, for which he had a legal concealed carry permit, and ended the threat by shooting both of the gunmen.

As Ms. Jones is going to find out, both the law and the vast majority of citizens are going to come down on the side of Mr. Lovell. In fact, she's going to find that most people are going to praise Mr. Lovell - and that includes me. I'm sorry she lost her grandson, but quite frankly, I'm quite pleased Mr. Lovell is still with us. Given a choice between the two, I'll take Mr. Lovell every time.
 
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He pulled his legally licensed handgun
That phrase gives me the willies. It states we have to ASK for permission to be able to defend ourselves from the criminals who, surprise surprise, do not go through licensing.

I think what you mean is that Mr. Lovell pulled his handgun from its licensed concealed position.
 
Written By: Robb Allen
URL: http://blog.robballen.com
Yeah, that’s fair Robb. Let me see if I can do better.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Call me a bastard, I stopped being sorry for the kid when he decided to wave a weapon around and as for Grandma, whatever. Makes ya wonder where the bridge generation between Grandma and sonny Jim is, and why mom or dad weren’t available for comment doesn’t it? I mean, we had to skip a generation to find a sympathetic voice? To find a comment on the affair? What?

And when I read the link....Grandpa is a winner too...damn the papers for talking like the kid was an armed robber and a danger to anyone.

And the kid’s photo, pretty sure that’s a mug shot...so...I assume that the kid has a prior history of criminal behavior that resulted in a photo opportunity. I think it’s fairly certain they didn’t stand his corpse up against the wall and take that photo after the shooting.

You reap what you sow in many many cases, and I’m tired of hearing about ’good kids’ who think armed robbery is a winning recipe for success. My bet is if grandma and grandpa had done a better job raising this kid’s parent, we wouldn’t have had to hear this story.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
I stopped being sorry for the kid ...
He’s 22. He’s not a "kid", anymore than the 19 year olds in Iraq are "kids". And as you well know, they’d resent you characterizing them as such.

He was old enough to know right from wrong, that what he was doing was wrong and to suffer the consequences of the act.

I felt no particular sympathy for him either.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
I recall reading that the retired Marine (seriously, I can’t think of anyone worse to threaten with a weapon, besides maybe an active-duty Marine) was more than willing to let these two take the money and leave, up until they decided to start shoving him towards the back.

THEN he took it personally.

And good on him. Saved on one trial, though it’s possible he needs to spend a bit more time at the range...

I mean, he only got one of the two, right? :)
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
I predict that in the future Grandpa and Grandma will be participating in a march protesting "gun violence".
 
Written By: Paul L
URL: http://kingdomofidiots.blogspot.com/
He’s 22. He’s not a "kid",
Good point. I stand corrected.
And as you well know, they’d resent you characterizing them as such.
Again, justly so.



 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Sorry, I have 3 in this age range, and when I look back over what I wrote....ah well, it appears mom isn’t the only one who still thinks of them as ’kids’.

My bad.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
And if a cop had been there and killed him instead what would be different? You wave a gun at a bunch of people in front of a cop and your odds aren’t that great, its just that you are 100% sure the cop has a gun so you don’t wave yours around in the first place.

What’s the quote? "I carry a gun because an entire cop is to heavy." or something?
 
Written By: Ryan
URL: http://
Rosa Jones ought to "bitch-slap" the parents of "poor" Donicio Arrindell.
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
Hell no, clearly the problem is that damn 71 year old Marine vigilante out there lurking round Subways waiting to ambush poor guys like Donicio.

It’s Deathwish all over again.
I mean think about it there was Donicio just minding his own business, holding the joint up, and bam, this guy goes off on him.
What’s the world coming to?
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
The really disgusting thing is that these scumbags (egged on by grandma no doubt) will probably file a civil lawsuit against Lovell and maybe even the Subway franchisee. I don’t practice law in Florida but I’d be willing to bet that a court would allow claims for assault, battery, infliction of emotional distress, etc. to go forward on the grounds that there is a triable issue of fact as to whether Lovell used reasonable force in his self-defense. I think that he did and I’d gladly take this case to a jury because I think his chances of winning are high. There may even be Florida statutory or case law that makes the use of a firearm reasonable as a matter of law when threatened by an attacker wielding a gun. If so, he could get a summary judgment.

Absent such law, however, Lovell may have to go to trial or face the difficult alternative of settling to avoid the cost of litigation. If he has some sort of umbrella liability insurance policy he may be covered (assuming there is no exclusion for liability incurred as a result of the use of a firearm). This type of scenario is relatively rare so an insurance company would have less of an incentive to fight the claim for its precedential value (as compared to spurious claims for auto accidents, for example). All of this is conjecture, but there is a chance that these delinquents could make some money. I just left a firm where I worked on a case in which a convicted felon sued our client from prison for battery after pleading guilty to an aggravated felony for assaulting the client with a deadly weapon. I couldn’t believe it, but the judge let the case go forward. The police had investigated and there was overwhelming evidence (several eyewitnesses) that the client did nothing to provoke the attack and hadn’t so much as touched the defendant. The court ruled that there was a triable issue of fact and the case went forward.
 
Written By: jt007
URL: http://
This is such a tragedy at so many levels:
1) Donicio is a victim...a victim of the white patriarchy, a patriarchy that cares NOTHING for Gays, Lesbians, The Transgendered, Womyn, the Poor and People of Colour, seeing them only as a disposable "Other." In Donicio’s case, it seems he is the poor and person of colour...suitable for pulling our weeds, or working our sub-minimum wage jobs, for filling our rapacious need for human material to fuel our Gaia-raping, technocratic, hyper-technological metastazing life styles....Another victim of Bush’s America...

2) But Donicio had another role, too...the role of the Despised and Fearsome "Other"...Gays, Lesbians, People of Colour fill this awful role in our Gulag America...they give the oppressed mouf-breathers some one to hate, to fear, to oppose, to differentiate themselves from...Homosexuals (Those Queers Chanting "We’re Here, We’re Queer" Threatening the Hetero-Normal Idyll) People of Colour (Those Brown/Black Folk No Longer Willing to Step’n Fetch For Their So-Called Masters) Empowered Womyn (Those Angry, Demanding Vagina’s No Longer Willing Submit Humbly)all serve to distract the lumpen proleteriate from the REAL enemy, the Rich 1%’ers who truly benefit from Bush’s Policies. Donicio was a necessary tool for those Masters in charge, a victim at another level...yet his murderer is a victim too. Seduced by the vision of property and motivated by his Mass Media-induced Fear of the Other, this man killed Donicio. All in some false consciousness that he was a "hero" defending something, when he is no more than a victim of the Capitalist Classes that feed him just enough to feel he has something to lose and feeding him a poisonous hatred of the "Other."

How sad, and sad, too that so many posters here do not see this sad and awful tragedy for what it truly is.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Seriously, Joe...

Mark these when you’re being sarcastic... I see stuff like this from people who actually mean it, so it’s hard to tell sometimes...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Bravo! Another tour de farce.

"Mark these when you’re being sarcastic..."

Nah, it’s too much fun watching the reaction of those with no sense of humor.


"it’s hard to tell sometimes..."

A little uncertainty is a good thing, sometimes. It makes you think and keeps you humble, and hopefully prevents you from jumping to conclusions.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
And if a cop had been there and killed him instead what would be different?
His family would be suing the city for wrongful death and charging the city’s cops with racism, that’s what would be different.
 
Written By: Steverino
URL: http://
As I keep saying, Satire and Irony are dead...yo can not parody the Left...you can try, but sure as shooting there’s a prof or activist spouting your lines...or your spouting their’s...whatever.
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
And that’s what scares me, Joe...

That’s what scares me...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
"was more than willing to let these two take the money and leave, up until they decided to start shoving him towards the back.

THEN he took it personally."

No, then he knew they intended to kill him. There is only one reason to move him to the bathroom after getting the money. This is taught in most self-defense courses, I think.

Once they had demonstrated that they intended to kill him, he took action to prevent it. My only regret, he needed a larger caliber, so the second one would be dead, too.

I feel a bit sorry for the grandmother’s loss (grandmothers generally love even grandchildren who don’t deserve it), but not for the young thug. His death probably has saved countless others from his depredations, and he got what he deserved, in equity.
 
Written By: jorgxmckie
URL: http://
No, then he knew they intended to kill him.
Don’t know about you mate, but I take the intent to kill me quite personally. :)
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://

 
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