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Pelosi, the Church and abortion
Posted by: McQ on Friday, September 05, 2008

The Archbishop of San Francisco has essentially validated my point from a day or so ago about the consistency of the Church's position pertaining to abortion:
In his statement Archbishop Niederauer wrote, "For 20 centuries, not for 50 years, the Catholic Church has taught that abortion is grievously sinful. Individual theologians may from time to time have speculated about the beginning of human life, but the Church has consistently taught that abortion is wrong. The answer to the question, 'When does life begin?' should not have an impact, we are told, on the woman's right to choose. Nevertheless, the woman's right to choose certainly has an impact on nascent human life."
Agree or disagree, the fact remains that Church doctrine about abortion and conception has remained consistent from the beginning.
 
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Previous Comments to this Post 

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So when is the church going to excommunicate those who openly defy church doctrine?
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
They’re not.
It’s not the same as it was in the old days where excommunication made you persona non grata across most of what was thought of as the civilized world.

Church/State no longer one.

And we already know Pelosi’s dog latin name would be Hypocritus Maximus anyway.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
I do eagerly await the arrival of that brilliant theologian from the Seminary Universitatus Equine Excrimentus, who is currently teaching at a reasonably reputable University in the State of Maine, to enlighten us on his annointed view of what constitues a good Catholic however. Those views were always so informative before.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
At soe point, one would think this would affect her percied credibility, however. Of course, it would only do s o amng people who took Chruch policy seriously... and my suspicion is that her supporters do not.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
Well, I don’t think she does either, so at least her supporters are consistent with her position and vice versa.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
I do eagerly await the arrival of that brilliant theologian . . .
Yes, I miss the comedy as well . . .
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
I can just see the press release from Pelosi’s office:

"What the hell does an Archbishop know about the doctrine of the Catholic Church? I’m a politician!"
 
Written By: Rich Horton
URL: http://www.iconicmidwest.blogspot.com
So when is the church going to excommunicate those who openly defy church doctrine?
I think that’s scheduled for right after they excomincate all condom using catholics.
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
So when is the church going to excommunicate those who openly defy church doctrine?
Already does.

According to canon law, the type of excommunication is referred to as "latae sententiae." Under the circumstances in Canon Law 1321-1330, this type of excommunication is incurred auomatically.

The phrase “latae sententiae” means a judgment or sentence which has already been brought, in other words, a sentence or judgment which does not need a future additional judgment from someone in authority; it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the future particular judgment of a case by competent authority.

Canon 1398: “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)

Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, n. 57: “Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral. This doctrine, based upon that unwritten law which man, in the light of reason, finds in his own heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is reaffirmed by Sacred Scripture, transmitted by the Tradition of the Church and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.”
 
Written By: The Gonzman
URL: http://
Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)
Ximinez: Now, old woman — you are accused of heresy on three counts — heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action — *four* counts. Do you confess?
Pelosi: I don’t understand what I’m accused of.
Ximinez: Ha! Then we’ll make you understand! Biggles! Fetch...THE CUSHIONS!
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Agree or disagree, the fact remains that Church doctrine about abortion and conception has remained consistent from the beginning.

Well, if I am not mistaken, at one time at least abortions prior to "quickening" were alright. So yeah, maybe they have been consistent about abortion being wrong, but that doesn’t tell us the whole story of the Church’s approach toward the issue historically.
 
Written By: Seward
URL: http://seward.seward.seward.seward.seward.com
Well, if I am not mistaken, at one time at least abortions prior to "quickening" were alright.
Seward - your credentials are?

As opposed to -
In his statement Archbishop Niederauer wrote, "For 20 centuries, not for 50 years, the Catholic Church has taught that abortion is grievously sinful. Individual theologians may from time to time have speculated about the beginning of human life, but the Church has consistently taught that abortion is wrong. The answer to the question, ’When does life begin?’ should not have an impact, we are told, on the woman’s right to choose. Nevertheless, the woman’s right to choose certainly has an impact on nascent human life."
Geeze, ya know, I have to go with Niederauer on this if the two of you insist on disagreeing.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
looker,

My credentials are that I’ve done some reading on the subject.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia (it was published in 1917):

Now Gregory XIV had enacted the penalty of excommunication for abortion of a "quickened" child but the present law makes no such distinction, and therefore it must be differently understood.

 
Written By: Seward
URL: http://seward.seward.seward.seward.seward.com
looker,

Anyway, it shouldn’t be all that surprising that a corporate body like a church, government, etc. - particularly one with a pedigree as long as the RCC’s - should be "inconsistent" over time. For example, if I am remembering my reading correctly, at one time the RCC condemned the taking of Christians as slaves by Jews and Muslims, but not of Christians taking Muslims (or pagans) as slaves. Now the modern church doesn’t condone slavery obviously, but it got to that position through an evolutionary process, in part spurred like the rest of society by Protestant and secular radicals.
 
Written By: Seward
URL: http://seward.seward.seward.seward.seward.com
Cool! and I’ve read stuff here too.
And I wouldn’t even BEGIN to think that my understanding through reading a single source trumped an interpretation from an ARCHBISHOP of the Catholic Church.
Thank you, I have now officially finally found a use for the word ’uppity’ and in context no less.

Yet, let us go on for a moment - from the document you linked to -
SECOND FREAKING PARAGRAPH....

Yet, as early as the fourth century of the Christian era, St. Gregory of Nyssa had advocated the view which modern science has confirmed almost to a certainty, namely, that the same life principle quickens the organism from the first moment of its individual existence until its death (Eschbach, Disp. Phys., Disp., iii). Now it is at the very time of conception, or fecundation, that the embryo begins to live a distinct individual life.
For life does not result from an organism when it has been built up, but the vital principle builds up the organism of its own body. In virtue of the one eternal act of the Will of the Creator, Who is of course ever present at every portion of His creation, the soul of every new human being begins to exist when the cell which generation has provided is ready to receive it as its principle of life. In the normal course of nature the living embryo carries on its work of, self-evolution within the maternal womb, deriving its nourishment from the placenta through the vital cord, till, on reaching maturity, it is by the contraction of the uterus issued to lead its separate life. Abortion is a fatal termination of this process. It may result from various causes, which may be classed under two heads, accidental and intentional.
A little further on
The embryonic child, as seen above, has a human soul; and therefore is a man from the time of its conception; therefore it has an equal right to its life with its mother; therefore neither the mother, nor medical practitioner, nor any human being whatever can lawfully take that life away.
The teachings of the Catholic Church admit of no doubt on the subject. Such moral questions, when they are submitted, are decided by the Tribunal of the Holy Office. Now this authority decreed, 28 May, 1884, and again, 18 August, 1889, that "it cannot be safely taught in Catholic schools that it is lawful to perform . . . any surgical operation which is directly destructive of the life of the fetus or the mother."
Even further on -
The early Christians are the first on record as having pronounced abortion to be the murder of human beings, for their public apologists, Athenagoras, Tertullian, and Minutius Felix (Eschbach, "Disp. Phys.", Disp. iii), to refute the slander that a child was slain, and its flesh eaten, by the guests at the Agapae, appealed to their laws as forbidding all manner of murder, even that of children in the womb. The Fathers of the Church unanimously maintained the same doctrine. In the fourth century the Council of Eliberis decreed that Holy Communion should be refused all the rest of her life, even on her deathbed, to an adulteress who had procured the abortion of her child. The Sixth Ecumenical Council determined for the whole Church that anyone who procured abortion should bear all the punishments inflicted on murderers. In all these teachings and enactments no distinction is made between the earlier and the later stages of gestation. For, though the opinion of Aristotle, or similar speculations, regarding the time when the rational soul is infused into the embryo, were practically accepted for many centuries still it was always held by the Church that he who destroyed what was to be a man was guilty of destroying a human life.
And further on -
The Catholic Church has not relaxed her strict prohibition of all abortion; but, as we have seen above, she has made it more definite. As to the penalties she inflicts upon the guilty parties, her present legislation was fixed by the Bull of Pius IX "Apostolicae Sedis". It decrees excommunication
Since I’m being a real sh!t in general today I’ll say -
Clearly my friend, your credentials do not extend to understanding what you’ve plowed through if you believe THIS document supports your argument.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Now the modern church doesn’t condone slavery obviously, but it got to that position through an evolutionary process, in part spurred like the rest of society by Protestant and secular radicals.
The archbishop has stated there has been no ’evolution’ on abortion, the citation you gave demonstrates the same.

When you crush apples, you don’t get orange juice, no matter how hard you try.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
looker,

Well, it seems to me that there has been an evolution on the subject. I’m not going to go "ALL CAPS" over the issue though and we’ll have to agree to disagree.
 
Written By: Seward
URL: http://seward.seward.seward.seward.seward.com
Well, it seems to me that there has been an evolution on the subject. I’m not going to go "ALL CAPS" over the issue though and we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Shorter: Even though I’ve been pwned I’m not gonna admit I’m wrong.
 
Written By: The Gonzman
URL: http://
Well, it seems to me that there has been an evolution on the subject. I’m not going to go "ALL CAPS" over the issue though and we’ll have to agree to disagree.
It’s not that simple. With the Church, things either are or they’re not. The fact is, unequivocally, the Church has been anti-abortion since it’s beginnings.

Sir, you are wrong. Be mature enough and just deal with it.
 
Written By: Joel C.
URL: http://
The Gonzman,

Even shorter: I don’t really talk to people who perfer to scream at me. And "ALL CAPS" is the online version of screaming, IMHO.

Joel C.,

...the Church has been anti-abortion since it’s beginnings.

I never suggested that it was ever anything but. However, the definition of what constitutes an abortion has clearly changed over time; namely whether pre-quickening abortions were excommunicable offenses. Apparently a pre-quickened abortion was not such an offense according to Pope Gregory XIV. If you can explain the text I quoted in some other fashion I’d be happy to hear your out on the matter.

 
Written By: Seward
URL: http://seward.seward.seward.seward.seward.com
Joel C.,

Actually, I guess a pre-quickening "abortion" wouldn’t have been thought of as an abortion at the time, though these days we consider it so. Not quite sure what word I should use as a substitute though for what they saw as well, a non-abortion.
 
Written By: Seward
URL: http://seward.seward.seward.seward.seward.com
Actually, I guess a pre-quickening "abortion" wouldn’t have been thought of as an abortion at the time, though these days we consider it so. Not quite sure what word I should use as a substitute though for what they saw as well, a non-abortion.
So - since it was considered not an abortion, then, yes indeed, abortion has consistently been regarded as morally unacceptable by the Catholic Church.

IOW - Nancy Pelosi has her head firmly ensconced in her sphincter.
 
Written By: The Gonzman
URL: http://

 
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