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Do we need a surge in Chicago? (update)
Posted by: McQ on Friday, September 05, 2008

Isn't this the Democratic stronghold which the presidential contender from that party claims as home?
An estimated 125 people were shot and killed over the summer. That's nearly double the number of soldiers killed in Iraq over the same time period.
Really it's not "nearly double" (the total killed in Iraq during that period is 91) but it does make an interesting point - especially when you talk about a city vs. an entire country at war.

Not to worry - it's Bush's fault.

UPDATE: Actually it is nearly double. I added May and September into the number when, in fact, in the article, they counted from May 28 (Memorial Day) to Sept 1 (Labor Day). The total casualties in Iraq was 65 during that 3 month period. My bad.

(HT: Scott Jacobs)
 
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Previous Comments to this Post 

Comments
Summer starts in late June.
 
Written By: Bryan Pick
URL: http://www.qando.net
Ah, I see "the summer" to them means May 26 to September 1. Never mind.
 
Written By: Bryan Pick
URL: http://www.qando.net
This whole story is a typo. Chicago has gun laws.
 
Written By: Is
URL: http://
Forgive the multiple posting, but the CBS report is about US soldiers (and presumably Marines, etc.). icasualties reports 29 killed in June, 13 in July, and 23 in August. That’s very close to the 65 total figure.
 
Written By: Bryan Pick
URL: http://www.qando.net
Folks, number of US soldiers and marines killed is not the same thing as the number of people killed. I could be wrong but I think some Iraqis may have been killed in this timeframe. If you want to do something other than score cheap points you could compare the number of police killed in Chicago to the soldiers killed in Baghdad. And compare the civilians killed in Baghdad to that 125. I believe the number is about four times that for August alone (but in all of Iraq) and not even counting dead bad guys.
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
As usual you miss the point Retief - which place is more dangerous for Americans, Chicago or Iraq?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
More dangerous for Americans? Well, which is bigger 125/3,000,000 (or 9.7 million if your 125 number is for Chicagoland) OR 65/150,000. Those are the probablities of being dead over the summer if you’re an American in one of those places. The population of Americans in Iraq is 5% of that in Chicago but more than half as many of them are dead. Sounds, like, totally safe.
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
That’s amazing considering Iraq and Chicago don’t have the same "liberal" guns rights policies. I say skip the surge for now and define some benchmarks for achieving full rights for Chicagoans.
 
Written By: Dusty
URL: http://
One more time Retief - which is more dangerous for Americans? There are 125 dead Americans in Chicago vs. 65 dead in Iraq over the same time period.

This isn’t about probability, it’s about actuality.

You know, reality. You’re from the so-called "reality based community". Why not act like it?

 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
More dangerous for Americans? Well, which is bigger 125/3,000,000 (or 9.7 million if your 125 number is for Chicagoland) OR 65/150,000. Those are the probablities of being dead over the summer if you’re an American in one of those places. The population of Americans in Iraq is 5% of that in Chicago but more than half as many of them are dead. Sounds, like, totally safe.
You can have fun with numbers all you like now...no one considers the ratio of men and women on the ground to losses when it’s reported in the newspaper. No one considered the ratio of men and women who DIDN’T fly home in coffins when they showed a picture of a cargohold full of flag drapped coffins being flown home.

When you were whining about blood and treasure you weren’t discussing the total of our losses in proportion to the number of Americans on the ground. It’s always cited as a hard number X thousand Americans killed in X years.

So you don’t get to play all cutsie with numbers now.

Furthermore you know as well as we do that the Democrats are even now planning on withdrawing from Chicago to deploy over the horizon in Milwaukee.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
With all this violence in Chicago, why is The Annointed One running to become the next American Pilate? It seems that Chicago desperately needs (drum roll, please) a community organizer! A man who can... um... listen. Organize the community. And... um... bring people together. Yeah, that’s it! He can give a voice to the poor, downtrodden criminals who... um... er... don’t have a voice and are being... Well, I guess they’re being beaten by the police (not enough to suit me, I have to say) and evicted from their asbestos-filled homes. The Annointed One needs to sit down with all the gang leaders and drug dealers in Chicago - with no preconditions! - and um... you know... talk with them. See what they want. Get them to stop killing each other and murdering the odd innocent civilian in the process. But it’s important not to lump them all together! Nuance is needed to discriminate between crack dealers and heroin dealers, between Latino gangs, black gangs, white gangs, Asian gangs, gangs with names begining with the letters A - M inclusive, gangs with more than 25 members (they need to start offering health care benefits, by the way)... Happily, he has the curiosity and experience to understand the situation in a transformative way. Obama, before he starts healing the planet, weaning us off of foreign oil, and repairing our image around the world, needs to work his light in Chicago. He needs to audaciously take his message of hope to Chicago to bring about change that they can believe in.

And leave the rest of us the hell alone.
 
Written By: docjim505
URL: http://
Two questions:

First, since when do Iraqis count for nothing?

Second, if "more dangerous" doesn’t mean "greater chance of dying," what does it mean?

Looker, I believe it is the Republicans who have deployed over the horizon, in Minneapolis.
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
First, since when do Iraqis count for nothing?
Hello? No. Clear enough?

Let me try this again - Which place is more dangerous for AMERICANS?
Second, if "more dangerous" doesn’t mean "greater chance of dying," what does it mean?
Becoming room temperature.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
In any case, Chicago is a sh*ty place, with corrupt politicians, and terrorists like Obama’s friend Ayers.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Let’s cut to the chase: if almost twice as many Americans are dying in Chicago from homocide than are dying in Iraq, what does that say about our war there? (Alternatively, what does that say about Chicago?)

This is not to denigrate the sacrifice of those who are still dying. Indeed, it is to point out just how much less deadly Iraq has become for our inflated forces in Iraq.
 
Written By: Bryan Pick
URL: http://www.qando.net
First, since when do Iraqis count for nothing?
Oh, gosh, that’s an easy one. We were told not to worry about Iraqi dead
when you, and MkUltra, and Scott Erb and the rest of your ilk were demanding:

1) first that we not even go in to Iraq to put an end to the reign of a murderer who had violated numerous UN mandates. You weren’t just real worried about Iraqi dead then.

2)when we GOT there (against your wishes) and you guys wanted us out because it was a ’civil war’ and it was none of our business. You weren’t just real worried about Iraqi dead then.

3) When we implemented the Surge and you guys claimed it was doomed and that it was a quagmire and we were wasting blood and treasure (all US stuff) to try and help the Iraqis put their country back together doing the whole ’nation building’ thing. You weren’t just real worried about Iraqi dead then.

And as a foot note, your kind weren’t worried about Cambodian dead, or Vietnamese dead ONCE the United States left Southeast Asia in the 70’s.
And a little further back you weren’t really concerned about the Chinese dead when Mao took over China, or the Russian dead when the Soviet Communists took power.

So, ya know, I really have to kind of tell you to take your ’Iraqi dead’ flag and put it back in your giant store chest of liberal hypocrisy for display on some other day when you’re talking to someone who hasn’t watched you for a couple of years, okay?

 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Folks, number of US soldiers and marines killed is not the same thing as the number of people killed
That’s right... Usually people in Chicago don’t have to content with IEDs...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Second, if "more dangerous" doesn’t mean "greater chance of dying," what does it mean?
Becoming room temperature.
Kicked the oxygen habit...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Looker, I believe it is the Republicans who have deployed over the horizon, in Minneapolis.
Not really see, like the Dem’s want to do in Iraq, the Republicans have respected the wishes of the people of the city of Chicago and have left the city in the hands of the people they voted for...

you know....Democrats.

After all, they have completely democratic elections (democratic used in the democracy sense, not the party sense), even if Jimmy Carter hasn’t specifically certified them as such.

If the Republicans were to show up without being invited it would be really poorly received and I’d be surprised if the Republicans are invited back any time soon. Chicago seems happy with itself, I’m sure the Democrats have more good suggestions to deal with the problems.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
And as a foot note, your kind weren’t worried about Cambodian dead, or Vietnamese dead ONCE the United States left Southeast Asia in the 70’s.
And a little further back you weren’t really concerned about the Chinese dead when Mao took over China, or the Russian dead when the Soviet Communists took power.
It about who is dying. Obviously, killing communists is bad. Communists killing, not so much.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
"It about who is dying. Obviously, killing communists is bad. Communists killing, not so much. "

Best comment of the day.
 
Written By: Jim Sullivan
URL: http://criticalbookworm.blogspot.com/
Second, if "more dangerous" doesn’t mean "greater chance of dying," what does it mean?
Perhaps this will help
 
Written By: capt joe
URL: http://
Let me try this again - Which place is more dangerous for AMERICANS?
If you insist on ignoring denominators, I’ll see your 125 Chicagoans hand raise you 201 dead in Wisconsin traffic collisions. Guess that makes Wisconsin far more dangerous to Americans than Chicago, never mind that paradise of safety, Iraq. In fact, did you know that more Americans die in America than anywhere else?!? America is the most dangerous place in the world for Americans. Get out! Get out while you can!
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
Get out! Get out while you can!
Retief, you just don’t get it. We’re not saying we should leave the US, and we’re not saying we should ’just’ leave Iraq. Do I need to take you down the road of the difference between a homicide and an accident? Really?

BTW - Cap’n, thanks for the MP links. Funny stuff!
 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
If you insist on ignoring denominators, I’ll see your 125 Chicagoans hand raise you 201 dead in Wisconsin traffic collisions. Guess that makes Wisconsin far more dangerous to Americans than Chicago, never mind that paradise of safety, Iraq.
Apples and oranges are both fruit!

You’re comparing accidents and murders. If you want to make a point about denominators, you would have been better advised to compare murders in Chicago to murders in a much larger but more peaceful area — say, everything from eastern Colorado to western Virginia.

So I understand your point about rates versus absolute numbers, but absolute scale is important, too, when you’re talking about lives. When one talks about a war, one usually doesn’t talk about deaths in the low double digits. It calls into question just how much violence constitutes a sincere war as opposed to "peacekeeping" or "policing".

Even if you go by rates, it has become much safer to be a US serviceman in Iraq than it was two years ago. Even if we assume that only the current figure of 144,000 servicemen were in Iraq throughout the summer (it was actually more, since some come and go from the country over time, and we’re beginning to draw down), if you were a serviceman in Iraq, you had a roughly 1 in 2215 chance of dying over the summer. It ain’t as bubble-wrap safe as civilian life, even in Chicago (on the other hand, can we compare the violent death rates among young able-bodied men in Chicago vs. in Iraq?), but it’s definitely not bad compared to where the war was relatively recently, when we had fewer forces on the ground and a much greater casualty rate.
 
Written By: Bryan Pick
URL: http://www.qando.net
if you were a serviceman in Iraq, you had a roughly 1 in 2215 chance of dying over the summer.
And I would venture to offer those are pretty good odds in a WAR!

Retief, you have made some rediculous comments here but these are about your worst. Up your game son or you’d be benched even in the PeeWee League.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
In his new book, “The War Within,” Woodward now pretends the U.S. troop “surge” that President Bush ordered in Iraq was not the primary reason for the dramatic reduction of violence in that country over the last year, that it was the pre-surge troops and the Iraqis acting on their own.

Unfortunately for Woodward, his book comes out exactly as Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama broke from the Democratic orthodoxy and conceded that the “surge” worked.
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://

 
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