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The Extremist, Sarah Palin
Posted by: McQ on Tuesday, September 09, 2008

I and others have mentioned ad nauseum how the media (and Democrats) seem unable to find a way to approach (attack?) the the Palin phenomenon (I think that's a fair description to this point) in a steady, measured way. They've been all over the place trying to marginalize the Alaska governor and have seen all of their attempts blow up in their faces.

They and the Democrats just can't seem to find the proper angle of attack without making themselves look foolish, petty and hypocritical.

That brings us to the latest attack balloon they've launched. Sarah Palin is an extremist. Joe Biden tried it out yesterday.

Slate's Gary Kamiya trots it out as well:
Post-convention polls are highly unreliable. But the same Democrats who were crowing with glee a week ago about McCain's off-the-wall choice are suddenly panicking. And you can't blame them. Four years after Americans looked at the first term of the worst president in modern history and decided they liked what they saw well enough to sign up for four more years, it's all too plausible that just when victory is in sight, the most crucial election of our time could be tipped by the 11th-hour appearance of a slick, unqualified, right-wing extremist and religious zealot in designer glasses.
After reading that you think, OK, for the most part the attack isn't sexist, demeaning or condescending. But as I've noted previously, the left just can't help itself in that regard. Once on a roll, the condescension and derision aren't far for the surface. In the next paragraph Kamiya says:
Republican strategists have made it clear that the GOP's only chance to win is by reframing the election as a battle of images. And right now, Palin is the pinup queen in that war. She's feisty, she's a mom, she's from a frontier state, she guns down wolves from the air, she's a devout Evangelical, she poses as a reformer, and she insults the Washington elites.

And large numbers of Americans think she's hot.

This latter point cannot be underestimated. Iraq may be a quagmire, a new cold war may be looming, the economy may be tanking and the world may be heading toward environmental doom, but the presidential race may be decided by the perceived doability of the governor of Alaska.
And he wanders off from there essentially telling us that American men, in this case, are so focused on their groin that they'll vote for McCain/Palin just because she's "hot" and "doable".

Seriously, that's Kamiya's thesis:
Because Palin's a woman, and even more, a babe, suddenly she and her party have been magically transformed into fresh-faced reformers.
Yup - no record of reform, it's just assumed, because, you know, she's a 'babe'.

Oh, an extremist babe.

But back to the new angle of attack - extremism. Juan Cole, picks up the talking point:
But the values of his handpicked running mate, Sarah Palin, more resemble those of Muslim fundamentalists than they do those of the Founding Fathers. On censorship, the teaching of creationism in schools, reproductive rights, attributing government policy to God's will and climate change, Palin agrees with Hamas and Saudi Arabia rather than supporting tolerance and democratic precepts. What is the difference between Palin and a Muslim fundamentalist? Lipstick.
Of course when you embark on an attack like that, you must have your facts straight. Otherwise you look like either a misinformed fool or someone who eschews truth for political convenience.

As it turns out, there are plenty of references out there which debunk most of Cole's claims. One of the most recent comes from FactCheck.org in which they destroy the creationism and censorship myths.

Joe Biden mentioned climate change in his extremist charge. One can only hope he brings it up in the debate, because like Cole's nonsense, it simply won't at all appear extremist to most normal Americans.

Of course if they go the extremist route, they open themselves up to what?

That's right, answering attacks which include Jeremiah Wright, Trinity UCC, Bill Ayers and Khalid Al-Mansour.

You have to ask - do they really want to take the weak case of "extremism" public in attacks on the Republican under-ticket and suffer the consequences of the same sorts of attacks being legitimized on the top of their ticket?

Apparently so.

Gun. Foot. Aim and pull trigger.
 
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Comments
What is the difference between Palin and a Muslim fundamentalist? Lipstick.
I don’t even have words. Has he been paying attention the last 2 weeks? Keep ’em coming.
 
Written By: Is
URL: http://
Why wouldn’t they shoot themselves in the foot on this topic? Obamoron has already shot himself in the foot over "inexperience", his repeated arguing with the BOTTOM of the GOP ticket, and now he’s yelling about Palin’s earmarks.

And I just heard that Palin, in OH on the stump, mentioned that Obambi shouldn’t "go there" (her words) because he’s requested almost a BILLION in earmarks in his tenure as Senator.

Oh my.

And McCain stays above it all, appearing Presidential.

Lightworker doesn’t have enough feet left to cover the bullets he’s firing at them.
 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
They’re really out of the woodwork now, aren’t they?

For a moment of hilarity, go to the American Spectator site and take a look at the piece there on Sally Quinn today (Tues, 9/9/08). It’s long so if you just want the best part scroll down to the paragraph whose first sentence begins with the all-caps lead-in "JUST WHO IS SALLY QUINN..."
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://newpaltzjournal.com
Thank heavens that liberal men are intellectual enough not to be swayed by Sarah Palin’s "doability". I, for one, am glad that there is a segment of our population that is totally ruled by reason and logic and not by baser passions like envy, fear, and hatred.

/ sarcasm

But if the argument is that men support her because she’s hot... is it reasonable to assume the corollary that the only women who support her are lesbians? I thought Andrea Mitchell said only ignorant, working class women would support her? Are they all lesbians who are swayed by her hotness? Can somebody explain this? Please? I’m dying to hear it.
 
Written By: docjim505
URL: http://
Both Obama and Biden are now complaining that Palin really wasn’t against the Bridge To Nowhere. Since they both voted for the BtN, one wonders what exactly their argument is. If they were consistent (yeah, I know, ha ha), they would complain that she should have been for it. Now they just look they were wrong and they know it and they want to convince others that she was wrong too.

There is something odd about the presidential candidate for one side spending so much time attacking the VP candidate from the other. They must really fear her.
 
Written By: the wolf
URL: http://
It’s called ’Desperation", people.

They’ve begun to recognize they’re going to lose, and so they’re pulling out anything and everything, hoping soemthing... anything... will stick.

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
Even the "doability" thing mirrors almost perfectly on Barry-O who looks like he just walked off the cover of GQ.
 
Written By: CR
URL: http://
Four years after Americans looked at the first term of the worst president in modern history and decided they liked what they saw well enough to sign up for four more years,
Again lighting up their utter contempt for the American people. How do you go out and deride the decision to elected your opponent and expect them to turn and say "ok, your right, we were knowingly stupid, and now that youve told us we are stupid we will elect you"
 
Written By: josh b
URL: http://
Men don’t like Palin because she’s "doable." They like her because she can field dress liberals.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://newpaltzjournal.com
Jealousy.
I’m tryin’ to think of a single "doable" democrat politician...
Give me a couple hours.
 
Written By: Greybeard
URL: http://pitchpull.blogspot.com/
Men don’t like Palin because she’s "doable." They like her because she can field dress liberals.
Oh man Martin. I saw your line yesterday in another post and laughed out loud. Saw it again today in this post and did the same thing.

Best.line.ever.
 
Written By: Warrior Needs Food Badly
URL: http://
Man all I can say is Wingnutz.Worst Veep Pick Ev-ah.Chickens Roosting.Quagmire.Dooom.Obama Winz
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
I saw your line yesterday in another post and laughed out loud.
Sorry for using it again, but it’s the truth.

They’re lying out there in the field and they see her coming, drawing her knife, a smile in her eyes, and it gets very dicey for them at that point, if you know what I mean.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://newpaltzjournal.com
I’m tryin’ to think of a single "doable" democrat politician...
Mary Landrieu, circa ’99.

And until she appeared to be losing her lunch hourly about Palin, I thought that Debbie Wasserman Schultz might look good after a few martinis.
 
Written By: Martin McPhillips
URL: http://newpaltzjournal.com
We need to analyze the potential economic costs, needs and opportunities associated with climate change. Let’s be cautious in how we react - to make sure we don’t overreact.
Exactly my position in the global warming climate change debate, I don’t trust the science, but we should do what is economically viable to reduce emissions and increase efficiency.

It seems that the liberal/progressive/leftist/democrats are turning into their worst nightmare, their stereotypical reactionary male chauvinist Republican.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
I think Piper gets the nod on "slick"
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
The idea of Gary ’more dead troops’ Kamiya calling someone extremist is surreal.

 
Written By: tkc
URL: http://
They’re on the run. They’re using the same tactics they claimed McCain would use on them. Hilarious.

http://demablogue.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/policy-over-plumbing/

demablogue.
 
Written By: demablogue
URL: http://demablogue.wordpress.com
Megan has it right about the attitude that permeates this people
 
Written By: capt joe
URL: http://
And he wanders off from there essentially telling us that American men, in this case, are so focused on their groin that they’ll vote for McCain/Palin just because she’s "hot" and "doable".
So how does this explain why more women and even some guys like myself find Palin to be so appealing? Sorry bud, but the Guv is a breath of fresh air in this campaign while that given off by Obama has grown to be quite stale. Flash is nice but substance is everything - which Palin has far more of than Obama. Besides, Palin is running for Veep and not Prez like that inexperienced hack Obama.
 
Written By: John
URL: http://averagegayjoe.blogspot.com
Megan has it right about the attitude that permeates this people
A shame most of her readers then go about displaying the very thing she was talking about, while completely missing her point.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Jealousy.
I’m tryin’ to think of a single "doable" democrat politician...
Give me a couple hours.
Someone tried to round ’em up here, but I gotta say, there ain’t much there for me...

 
Written By: meagain
URL: http://
Yeah, I’m shaking in my boots about that McCain might bring up for the millionth time how Barack served on an education board that one time with that violent hippie protestor. Yes, people who aren’t right-wing tools find that to be of some sort of significance. Really! All the time!

Or, oh noes! Barack Obama attended a church with a pastor who once said things about gosh darn america! Now, let me see, who does that sound like? It sounds... like... Sarah Palin’s pastor.

Khalid Al-Mansour is bulls*it, contradicted by obvious on the record facts:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Sutton_family_retracts_Obama_story.html

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Obama_camp_denies_Sutton_story.html?showall

First, Politico’s Ben Smith reported (h/t Media Matters) that the Obama campaign denied the story, stating that "Obama did not know and does not know Khalid al-Mansour," Obama doesn’t have a relationship with Sutton, and that "to our knowledge, no such letter was written." Further, Obama was in Chicago, not New York, when he applied to Harvard, according to the campaign. While Timmerman noted in his article that "The Obama campaign did not respond to requests for comment," he has not yet gone back to report the denial.

Smith further reported that the Sutton family was retracting Percy Sutton’s claim:

The information Mr. Percy Sutton imparted on March 25 in a NY1 News interview regarding his connection to Barack Obama is inaccurate. As best as our family and the Chairman’s closest friends can tell, Mr. Sutton, now 86 years of age, misspoke in describing certain details and events in that television interview.

We regret this unfortunate incident and we ask good conscientious people to extend compassion and grace to Percy Sutton, a man who has served America in many capacities; an officer with the Tuskegee Airmen in World War II and as a public servant who was the first elected African-American Manhattan Borough President.

Smith added that "there’s absolutely no other evidence for the story, and much that contradicts it." Timmerman has made no mention of this, either.

So, will Timmerman acknowledge that his article has essentially been blown out of the water? Or will he try to cling to some shred in order to salvage it? We shall see.

Of course, being proven demonstrably false didn’t keep Investor’s Business Daily from uncritically repeating Timmerman’s debunked claims.


Since you’re interested in the truth - right, Q? You would never pass along obviously invented bullsh*t and deliberately bury the retractions and contradicting evidence, right? I’m sure you’ll post a correction to this post, so that people who don’t dig around in the comment section know that

a) Obama has flatly denied ever meeting this dude or having anything to do with him whatsoever
b) denied any such letter
c) also denied by Mansour - meeting, knowing, everything
d) statement retracted by 86 year old man’s family
e) 86 year old man is getting senile
f) Obama resided halfway across the country from mansour & sutton
g) at no point did anyone ever specify what this person would have allegedly been raising money for Obama for - it wasn’t Harvard law school, because Obama went there on student loans
h) given that they rather obviously were total strangers to each other at the time, pretty f*cking unlikely that there would be any reason for a connected Saudi to give a d*mn about Obama at age 25.

 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
So what has Palin’s pastor said that’s so controversial?

It’s interesting to read some of the comments on what the pastor said, but they seem to be from people who don’t really understand the Christian faith to begin with.

And it pales in comparison to the "black liberation" theology that Obama gave passive approval to for 20 years.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
Of course, what hasn’t been debunked is the radical, anti-semitic connections of Sarah Palin’s extremist church.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/3/20415/45442

Sarah Palin is quickly developing a pastor problem of her own, which by all accounts should be much worse than Obama’s ever was. We learned that Palin’s church had the director of Jews for Jesus give a sermon two weeks ago, and Palin was there. He gave a warm introduction and a collection plate was even passed around for donations to the organization.

Then, just recently we learned that Palin’s pastor himself found his calling through Jews for Jesus. "If it were not for Jews for Jesus, I would not be standing here," said Kroon.

This in itself would be a huge problem for Jewish voters. But it gets worse. Jews for Jesus supports Israel, but Pastor Kroon does not. He recently granted an interview to "Brother Nathanael" of the anti-Israel website Real Jew News: The Zionist War for World Dominion.

In the interview, you can clearly see that Kroon is no friend of Israel:


This interview is real. Here’s the link. It’s a hate speech website of first-class anti-semitic nutjobs, as you can tell from the URL.

http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=264

Meanwhile,

I highly recommend this video of a guest speaker at Sarah Palin’s church - one with a close relationship to her pastor - expliciting states that Jews being killed in Israel were being punished for their sins, as are Americans who die in terrorist attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-fvg6Q_TyE&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/3/154432/1140

You have 200 words to explain how this is different from Jeremiah Wright. But you won’t - you’ll call me and Obama a lot of nasty names. As for the video, you won’t say two words about it. You want an October surprise? I’m looking forward to this national ad buy. You deserve it.

"Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. It’s very real. When [Brickner’s son] was in Jerusalem he was there to witness some of that judgment, some of that conflict, when a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment — you can’t miss it."

He’s not some passing kook. He’s the executive director of the organization that started Sarah Palin’s pastor on the road to christianity.

That’s his own words - here: (search for "Kroon")

http://files.jewsforjesus.org/pdf/newsletter/Newsletter-2004-08.pdf

What do you have to say for yourself, Q? You like to carefully select the issues you debunk and the ones you shove under the rug, eh? Your intellectual integrity impresses me again.
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
Glasnost, your using of he phase "intellectual integrity" causes laughing fits, particularly while using Daily Kos as a source.

Please stop.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
that violent hippie protestor
Minister of Under Statement Glasnost was quoted as saying in regard to domestic terrorist Bill Ayers, former member of SDS and Weather Underground movements, organizations responsible for domestic terror bombings of both the Pentagon and the Capitol Building in Washington DC in the early 70’s.

Rather than deal with the actual association of Obama and Ayers, or attempt to refute any of the allegations against the ’violent hippie protestor’, Minister Glasnost focused largely on Khalid Al-Mansour.

In other news today, a dog bit a man.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
That’s right, answering attacks which include Jeremiah Wright, Trinity UCC, Bill Ayers and Khalid Al-Mansour.
Hey Glassie, I see you did an admirable job of refuting one of four of McQ’s examples.
Problem is, in baseball that’s a .250 batting average and that won’t get you to the majors.

But keep on swingin’!
 
Written By: Warrior Needs Food Badly
URL: http://
That’s right, answering attacks which include Jeremiah Wright, Trinity UCC, Bill Ayers and Father Pfleuger.
Fixed that for you Bruce.

 
Written By: Warrior Needs Food Badly
URL: http://
I don’t have anything to refute about William Ayers, except to say that I don’t give a sh*t that Barack Obama was once on a board of directors with a dude who committed or supported malicious violent acts forty years ago. Personal experience suggest that most people have that kind of ’skeleton’ in their closet (meaning, having met / known / coexisted with someone who committed heinous acts). Quick! Has Sarah Palin ever been in a room voluntarily with a violent felon? I have no idea, but we may find out, huh? It’s baloney, but if you serve it, be prepared to eat it.


 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
Oh, and Glassie, I will read all the stuff you linked to in regards to Gov Palin’s church when I get a chance. Except for the Kos Kiddies garbage.

There ain’t a strong enough soap on the planet to wash that ick off.
 
Written By: Warrior Needs Food Badly
URL: http://
"Personal experience suggest that most people have that kind of ’skeleton’ in their closet (meaning, having met / known / coexisted with someone who committed heinous acts)."
Quite possibly the most ridiculous thing you’ve ever said.
 
Written By: Grimshaw
URL: http://
Interestingly, this Pastor Kroon did not single out the United States in his sermon...
On July 20, 2008, the pastor of Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin’s home church, Larry Kroon, delivered a sermon called “Sin Is Personal To God.” Kroon, the senior pastor of the non-denominational Wasilla Bible Church in Wasilla, Alaska, used the book of Zephanaiah as his reference point for discussing “that great day of the Lord when God will finally bring closure to human history… a day of wrath.” According to Kroon, “all things and all people” are going to bear the brunt of God’s “intense anger.” “There’s anger with God,” he proclaimed. “He takes sin personal.”

Kroon placed Zephaniah in a modern context, warning that the sinful habits of Americans would invite the wrath of God. “And if Zephaniah were here today,” Kroon bellowed, “he’d be saying, ‘Listen, [God] is gonna deal with all the inhabitants of the earth. He is gonna strike out His hand against, yes, Wasilla; and Alaska; and the United States of America. There’s no exceptions here — there’s none. It’s all.’”
Not just the US, not just whitey in the US, but everyone. God will judge everyone.

Hardly a controversial statement for a Christian to believe.

And even more so for those that believe in the "end times" or "rapture" being near.

You would think with the number of people who bought the Left Behind book series, the left wouldn’t be pointing out to them that Palin may actually belong to "one of those churches."
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
I don’t have anything to refute about William Ayers, except to say that I don’t give a sh*t that Barack Obama was once on a board of directors with a dude who committed or supported malicious violent acts forty years ago. Personal experience suggest that most people have that kind of ’skeleton’ in their closet (meaning, having met / known / coexisted with someone who committed heinous acts). Quick! Has Sarah Palin ever been in a room voluntarily with a violent felon? I have no idea, but we may find out, huh? It’s baloney, but if you serve it, be prepared to eat it.
The more important question would be, did Sarah Palin launch her political career in the living room of said "violent felon."

But of course, that can be wisked away as Obama paying fealty to those on the inside of the Chicago political machine.

But then, that makes Obama just another politician, not the one who’s going to change politics.

Someone really needs to publish the 3% of votes where Obama didn’t vote the party line in the Senate.
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
"Personal experience suggest that most people have that kind of ’skeleton’ in their closet (meaning, having met / known / coexisted with someone who committed heinous acts)."
You have no shame at all. I’ve managed 50 years without associating freely with a terrorist who bombed the nation’s capitol.
I’ve managed 50 years without associating with someone I KNEW committed heinous acts.

I bet "most people" who read and post here can say the same for the time they’ve been alive.

Your "most people" is more statistical bullsh!t spouted with absolutely no credible evidence, and in fact, contradiction to any commen sense, like MANY of the things you come in here spouting.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
I hear all this talk about how the Republicans are going to work in dealing with parents who have both the joy, because there’s joy to it as well, the joy and the difficulty of raising a child who has a developmental disability, who were born with a birth defect. Well guess what folks? If you care about it, why don’t you support stem cell research? — Joe Biden
There are few scientists, if any, who believe that stem cell research will produce a treatment of Down’s Syndrome or other developmental disabilities, so is Joe Biden suggesting that Sarah Palin should have sacrificed her son, Trig, at the altar of science in the hope that perhaps it "could" produce a cure for juvenile diabetes or such ?
 
Written By: Neo
URL: http://
More to the point the current administration does support stem cell research, it just doesn’t support ALL types of stem cell research.

More of the same horse sh!t from the people who believe a 30% increase in spending when a 50% increase was originally recommended, is a ’cut’ in spending.

 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
I’ve managed 50 years without associating freely with a terrorist who bombed the nation’s capitol

That’s a conveniently small subset of the list of violent acts.


http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/index.html

Website here suggests 1 million violent crimes committed per year. Those are the ones that get caught. I don’t have hours to make a sociology project on this, but it suggests that it’s pretty likely that the number of people who commit violent acts in this country as a proportion of population extends into the single-digit percentages, since we’re already at 1 violent act per every 400 residents per year. If someone wanted to spend $400 million dollars on oppo research, it’s pretty likely they could "tie" you to someone who committed a violent crime, in the sense that you were once in thesame place at the same time.

Have you ever been at a fundraiser, and somewhere in the room was an ex-felon? At a party? Shared employment? Is there one in the congregation of your church? What judgments should we make about you based on that fact? And when you meet a person who once committed a violent act, what should you do? Spit on them? Flee the room? Fire up a passionate indictment of everything said person did forty years ago? Is that how real people deal in real life with people who have ugly, distant histories not relevant to them personally?

Do you know how many people in, oh, for a random example, the law enforcement world, or the defense world, have to deal with people who have at some point committed bad acts, even bad violent acts, on a basis other than making a speech in Times Square about the evil that they represent and making a personal boycott of them?

The more important question would be, did Sarah Palin launch her political career in the living room of said "violent felon."

Keith, what exactly is meant here by "launch of political career". It couldn’t be, oh, an evocative metaphor dreamt up by a Republican operative for the purpose of making the fact that they were in the same room during a social/political event, sound more meaningful than it really was? Could it? Or was there some substantive, empirical indicator that someone’s career was actually "launched" here, as opposed to somewhere else?
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
Well Glasnost his first fund raiser was with Bill Ayers, IIRC...I’d say that counts as the "christening" on the career, how abobut you?
If someone wanted to spend $400 million dollars on oppo research, it’s pretty likely they could "tie" you to someone who committed a violent crime, in the sense that you were once in thesame place at the same time.
1) And BillAyers is unrepentant about is criminality and admits he’s guilty....
2) IF I were an acquaintance of such a person, he’d soon be an UN-Acquaintance and I’d have no problem denouncing him...Has Obama done that yet?

So it’s not like he was just hanging around Chicago with Bill Ayers and JUST now found out about it is it Glas?
 
Written By: Joe
URL: http://
Have you ever been at a fundraiser, and somewhere in the room was an ex-felon? At a party? Shared employment? Is there one in the congregation of your church? What judgments should we make about you based on that fact? And when you meet a person who once committed a violent act, what should you do? Spit on them? Flee the room? Fire up a passionate indictment of everything said person did forty years ago? Is that how real people deal in real life with people who have ugly, distant histories not relevant to them personally?
You want me to detail these?
Let’s just
fundraiser - let’s see, boy scouts, little league, hospital charity....
I guess I can’t claim there was no felon in there somewhere, so I have to give you that one. If there was, I didn’t know about it, that’s the best I can do.

Shared employment - always worked for financial institutions or major corporations where data security was paramount and would NOT employ a felon.
So, no - that’s 1 for me.

Congregation of my church - don’t attend a church - haven’t for 35 years.
So, no - that’s 2 for me.

2 for me, 1 for you, at no time did I consort with a known felon in any of the instances mentioned.
What judgements would you like to make with your blanket statement now? That I’m not the norm? Go for it.

But let’s get back to specifics, let’s talk about a terrorist bomber who escaped prosecution because of prosecutorial stupidity, and has admitted he committed the crimes, shall we?
Or would that interfere with your twisting of reality to your own ends?
That’s a conveniently small subset of the list of violent acts.
Which is why I added the second subset -
I’ve managed 50 years without associating with someone I KNEW committed heinous acts. Even here, not all felons commit heinous acts, unless you consider, say all check fraud to be heinous acts, or say, grand theft auto a heinous act. Somehow I’d have less problem with a car thief of 40 years past than a TERRORIST BOMBER from 40 years past. That’s just me...You’re a more open minded forgiving guy (which is why you’re currently foaming at the mouth for Sarah Palin).

Associating doesn’t mean you walked by them on a street, you walked into a bus station where a felon was sitting on a bench, you went into a restaurant where a felon was sitting at a table.
It means ASSOCIATING with them Glasnost, and being in the same room, or on the same street, or living in the same apartment building doesn’t MEAN I associated with them. I certainly didn’t sit in their apartment or house and work with them on a board, or committee and you can’t say your candidate didn’t do that. So, call him a ’violent hippie protester’ and move on. Actually you could go for the completely two faced routine and call him a ’washed up, old, granddad, violent hippie protester’ and try to bury the meaning of the word ’violent’ as deeply as possible in the other adjectives.

SELF PROFESSED DOMESTIC TERRORIST are the words you were looking for to accurately describe him, not just ’violent’. Tell you what, let’s compromise!
VIOLENT SELF PROFESSED DOMESTIC TERRORIST.
There, that’s better.
Do you know how many people in, oh, for a random example, the law enforcement world, or the defense world, have to deal with people who have at some point committed bad acts, even bad violent acts, on a basis other than making a speech in Times Square about the evil that they represent and making a personal boycott of them?
And what has that got to do with Obama who CHOSE to associate with this guy, as opposed to law enforcement officers who don’t exactly pal around with the felons they’re bringing in, or the lawyers who prosecute them or represent them.

 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
I don’t have anything to refute about William Ayers, except to say that I don’t give a sh*t that Barack Obama was once on a board of directors with a dude who committed or supported malicious violent acts forty years ago.
I note you ssy nothing about his political career starting in the man’s livingroom.

So much for the vaunted ’intellectual honesty’ claims.

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
That’s a conveniently small subset of the list of violent acts.
Ayers was a rather unusual criminal. An anti-American radical who engaged in terrorism.

The fact that he’s such close buddies with Obama suggests Obama can’t be trused. After all, he gave Obama his only real executive experience—providing funds for radical left organizations. And he helped Obama kick off his political career.

Yet, somehow Palin’s earmarks are worse, in the land of glasnost.
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
Have you ever been at a fundraiser, and somewhere in the room was an ex-felon? At a party? Shared employment? Is there one in the congregation of your church? What judgments should we make about you based on that fact? And when you meet a person who once committed a violent act, what should you do? Spit on them? Flee the room? Fire up a passionate indictment of everything said person did forty years ago? Is that how real people deal in real life with people who have ugly, distant histories not relevant to them personally?
It isn’t simply that Ayers is a criminal. He’s a terrorist.

After all, Obama has plenty of criminal friends. But Ayers is special. And, he stands by the crimes he committed; he only regrets not bombing more targets.

Of course this doesn’t bother glasnost. Can we question glasnost’s patriotism yet?
 
Written By: Don
URL: http://
VIOLENT SELF PROFESSED DOMESTIC TERRORIST.

The Weathermen, collectively, were apparently thugs and scumbags. However, let me ask you a question, looker. Do you think that Ayers was competent enough to set off explosive devices in the vicinity of the Pentagon, but too incompetent to kill and injure people? I find this possible, but unlikely.

I doubt that a court of law would find him equivalent to Tim McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden, which is exactly the equivalency you’re attempting to draw. I would roughly equate him with the dudes beating black people outside of churches. I’m not friends with either of those two types of people, but I wouldn’t unendorse a friend of mine who happened to be friends, in either case. A lot of violent hippie protestors and violent southern hicks from the 60’s are basically harmless these days. Dude is a violent felon, but not a mass murderer. He meets the literal definition of terrorist, but that just goes to show how words can be used to imply a very specific emotional pattern to a broad set of actions.



And what has that got to do with Obama who CHOSE to associate with this guy,


The point is that his association was part of his professional career. Law enforcement & defense folk, to name two examples - not to mention clergy, social workers, and a laundry list of other professional people - make free choices to associate with violent felons, often in ways that said former violent felons will benefit from. Millions of Americans overlook the sins of violent felons and cooperate with them, and I don’t see that as a bad thing, as long as they have no reason to believe that said violent felons pose a continuing threat. What about you? Do you believe all decent people should refuse to associate with former violent felons under all circumstances? If so, we might as well execute them.
 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
The Weathermen, collectively, were apparently thugs and scumbags. However, let me ask you a question, looker. Do you think that Ayers was competent enough to set off explosive devices in the vicinity of the Pentagon, but too incompetent to kill and injure people? I find this possible, but unlikely.
I find it completely uninformed:
In a bombing that took place on February 16, 1970, and that was credited to the Weathermen at the time, a pipe bomb filled with heavy metal staples and lead bullet projectiles was set off on the ledge of a window at the Park Station of the San Francisco Police Department. In the blast, Brian V. McDonnell, a police sergeant, was fatally wounded while Robert Fogarty, another police officer, received severe wounds to his face and legs and was partially blinded.[28]

Weatherman leader Bernardine Dohrn has been suspected of involvement in the February 16, 1970, bombing of the Park Police Station in San Francisco.

[...]

An FBI informant, Larry Grathwohl, who successfully penetrated the organization from the late summer of 1969 until April 1970, later testified to a U.S. Senate subcommittee that Bill Ayers, then a high-ranking member of the organization and a member of its Central Committee (but not then Dohrn’s husband), had said Dohrn constructed and planted the bomb. Grathwohl testified that Ayers had told him specifically where the bomb was placed (on a window ledge) and what kind of shrapnel was put in it. Grathwohl said Ayers was emphatic, leading Grathwohl to believe Ayers either was present at some point during the operation or had heard about it from someone who was there.
And:
On March 6, 1970, during preparations for the bombing of an officers’ dance at the Fort Dix U.S. Army base and for Butler Library at Columbia University,[35] there was an explosion in a Greenwich Village safe house when the bomb being constructed prematurely detonated due to a wiring malfunction.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
I’m sure glasnost has no problem with ALF/ELF terrorists, since they only damage property, and haven’t yet killed anyone.

If the left has no problem with Obama and his associations, they shouldn’t be saying a peep about Palin and her pastor.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/04/18/how_obama_and_the_radical_became_news/?page=2
In political circles in Chicago, where Obama rose in politics and Ayers is now a college professor, an Ayers-Obama connection has been known for years. In January 2005, in a progressive liberal blog called "Musings & Migraines," a Chicago-based blogger named Maria Warren - whose writing suggested she was to the left of Obama - recalled watching the candidate give a "standard, innocuous little talk" in 1995, in the living room of Ayers and his wife, former Weather Underground member Bernardine Dohrn, when Obama was running for the state Senate.
more stories like this

"They were launching him," she wrote, "introducing him to the Hyde Park community as the best thing since sliced bread."
 
Written By: Keith_Indy
URL: http://asecondhandconjecture.com
I don’t think that’s a very good equivalence, Keith. It’s better that glasnost and his ilk say loudly and publicly both that they don’t have a problem with terrorists as long as they are leftists, and that they do have a problem with Palin’s former church. You can judge the utility of the one statement by the other.

 
Written By: Jeff Medcalf
URL: http://www.caerdroia.org/blog
The Weathermen, collectively, were apparently thugs and scumbags. However, let me ask you a question, looker. Do you think that Ayers was competent enough to set off explosive devices in the vicinity of the Pentagon, but too incompetent to kill and injure people? I find this possible, but unlikely.

I doubt that a court of law would find him equivalent to Tim McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden, which is exactly the equivalency you’re attempting to draw. I would roughly equate him with the dudes beating black people outside of churches. I’m not friends with either of those two types of people, but I wouldn’t unendorse a friend of mine who happened to be friends, in either case. A lot of violent hippie protestors and violent southern hicks from the 60’s are basically harmless these days. Dude is a violent felon, but not a mass murderer. He meets the literal definition of terrorist, but that just goes to show how words can be used to imply a very specific emotional pattern to a broad set of actions.
To this I say merely - bwaaahahahahahaah - hypocrite.
Dude is a violent felon, but not a mass murderer.
Can you get any more nuanced in your definition of terrorist?
Court? What court? the only court you’re playing to with your attacks on Palin is the court of public opinion. The same court I’m playing to with my description of Ayers as a:

VIOLENT (blew sh!t up and explosions are usually VIOLENT, they kill people and Ayers just got lucky his Pentagon bomb DIDN’T)
SELF PROFESSED(admitted he blew sh!t up and went on to say he regrets not blowing more sh!t up)
DOMESTIC (was born in the US)
TERRORIST (blew sh!t up to terrorize people and possibly kill them to achieve his anti-establishment goals)

I never said he was Timothy McVeigh,
Now you’ve wandered into degrees of terrorism to try and salvage your points. I never said he was a mass murderer, again, you.
You’re the one trying draw parallels not me. You’re the one having to weigh how big a terrorist is is in order to be what I have to assume is a ’proper’ terrorist in your book. Is a guy who murders only one person really not a proper murderer? Is this one of those things you like to say is ’open to discussion’?

No amount of twisting or turning or comparing changes the fact that Bill Ayers is a terrorist, and Barack Obama CHOSE to associate with him.

To paraphrase a brilliant poster on another thread -
Seriously, Glasnost, you’ve outdone yourselves.
Whether or not it matters if he’s a ’big’ terrorist is a matter open to dispute, apparently, but if you can’t see what’s ethically objectionable about blowing up, or planning to blow up buildings in the nations Capitol, you need your fuc*ing heads examined for Hackery Disease.

I’ve really enjoyed watching you (invalidate, defile, repudiate) all over your alleged beliefs in your defense of Bill Ayers, domestic terrorist’.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Interesting reading, Q, but I’d say the article, as a whole, supports my interpretation over yours. Hey, good to know you’re reading this - I now know it’s malice, rather than ignorance, that leads you to fail to correct inaccuracies in your blog post that are fortunate enough to damage people you don’t like.

As for the rest of this breath I’m wasting, I’d think it would be pretty obvious that I don’t support or respect Ayers’ violent felonies. The only important difference from a moral perspective between a ’terrorist’ and a ’violent felon’ is, in that in some cases, organizations and leading terrorists within them surpass ordinary violent felons in the extent of the human suffering they inflict. But, in the case of William Ayers, not so much. Actions here are comparible to those of a fairly typical violent felon. A subjective judgement, but it’s mine. You don’t like it, looker, but I don’t care, and you haven’t made much of a case for the contrary.

I don’t care that Barack Obama once was on a board with a violent felon. Hundreds of millions of Americans will join me in not caring, because we assume, accurately, that Barack Obama does not share the 1970 - William Ayers’ interest in blowing things up. If you suspect B.O. harbors secret admiration for and interest in kick-starting leftist terrorism in the US, that is certainly a reason not to vote for him, but you also have lunatically poor judgment. So, since relevance to BO’s governance platform is lunacy, what’s left his alledged personal sin of not hating enough towards former violent felons. Sorry, I rarely get upset with people for not being hateful enough, even towards former violent felons. Or former terrorists, for that matter, if circumstance happens to allow a situation where said former terrorist is very clearly out of the business. In Iraq, we’re encouraging former terrorists to get out of the business by the planeload, and we’re rubbing heads, shoulders, knees and toes with them, making small talk and passing out sandwitches as we pay them in cash. The difference is that some of the dudes we’re making nice with, unlike Ayers, actually killed people personally.

What if some soldier in said situation takes a genuine liking for some apparently no-longer terrorist Son of Iraq over there? Invites him back to the states, gets him a visa, cooks hot dogs with him, yada yada yada? Who can say what about two people lead them to fail to condemn each other? Said soldier is not an evil man, just someone who found something he liked about another human being and has made a judgment that he’s not enabling any bad acts right then and now, via his association, in real time. Someone not interested in hating people for what they represent, rather than who they seem to be, face to face. That guy can be wrong, show poor judgment, run the risk of being complicit in future malicious acts by the ex-terrorist or ex-felon. In Obama’s case, I think he could feel pretty sure that he wasn’t contributing to nonexistent and wildly unlikely future violent acts by W. Ayers. The rest is just self-gratifying vigiliantism.

I’ll say with a clear conscience: be civil to people who are civil to you, unless they’re actually in the process, in one form or another, of doing harm. A wise and Christian outlook on the conduct of both personal and presidential life. I’d actually think less of Obama if he’d walked away from an education-reform project that could help kids, just so he could get off on shunning a heinous dude. The education project is a positive good act, while the empty denunciation of forty-year old felonies is just an act of self-gratification.


 
Written By: glasnost
URL: http://
I’ll say with a clear conscience: be civil to people who are civil to you, unless they’re actually in the process, in one form or another, of doing harm. A wise and Christian outlook on the conduct of both personal and presidential life.
I have to admit that for once, Glas, you make a good point. But then again, I don’t agree with it and think for his admitted crimes Ayres should be given a Lubyanka cocktail - a 9 mm to the back of the head - and those that associate with him should be shunned. But that’s just my opinion.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
Interesting reading, Q, but I’d say the article, as a whole, supports my interpretation over yours.
And I’d say that if that’s the conclusion you come too, then its a losing battle presenting facts when your mind is made up and I won’t bother anymore.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Wow! Cool high horse screed Glasnost!
You’re such a cool chrisitan like, even if maybe not technially christian, dude!

If I were a christian I’d might even feel shamed by your little ponitifical post where you demonstrate you’re a better person than I am with your forgiving ways. I’d like it noted for the record your posting history here indicates your forgivness doesn’t seem to extend to a lot of people however. And unremarkably it’s people who don’t have your political views.

So millions of people will agree with you, they won’t care about Bill Ayers. I don’t think that O is going to start blowing crap up, I don’t think anyone who sees O associate with Ayers thinks that either. If that’s what you think we think I think you better re-think your thinking.

It’s the choice of associating in comfort with SCUMBAGS (and please, don’t cite lawyers, or law enforcement officers AGAIN in this regard, they have to associate with scumbags the same way a garbage collector has to associate with garbage) we’re going to object to.

Now, since you seem comfortable with your opinion, allow me to be comfortable with mine. You wandered in here and gave us your opinion, I gave you mine back.
That’s going to happen here.

Millions of people will agree with you, millions won’t.

Ah well.
 
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