China is rapidly expanding its military capability, boosting its potential to strike beyond Taiwan and jeopardizing the balance of power in the region, the Pentagon said in a report to Congress.
Of course this is being driven by the booming Chinese economy enabling much of this expansion. Per the Pentagon, this buildup changes the strategic relationship between Taiwan and China much more to China's favor:
China continues to deploy its most advanced weapons opposite Taiwan and is increasing emphasis on new technologies and strategies with the aim of winning ``short-duration, high- intensity conflicts,'' the report said. China is increasing the number of short-range ballistic missiles aimed at Taiwan across by about 100 per year, the report released today said.
The mobility of China's short-range missiles, coupled with advances in air and naval forces ``are scoped for operations beyond'' Taiwan, the report said. Continued advancements could provide it with a force capable of conducting various military operations in Asia ``well beyond Taiwan,'' the report said.
The balance of power in the Taiwan Strait appears to be shifting toward China due to its expanding economy, growing diplomatic leverage and improvements in military capability, the report said. Meanwhile, Taiwan's defense spending has declined, leaving vulnerable the island nation China regards as a renegade province.
While that's a problem, its not the biggest problem the Pentagon sees pertaining to this Chinese buildup. As stated, the buildup seems to be such that it makes China's military less of a defensive one and one more able to conduct "short duration" high-intensity offensive operations. That is indeed a change in Chinese military strategy.
One particular element will drive the future. The Economy. Both global and China's own. And, it is anticipated, economic disputes will sharpen:
Economic and trade disagreements between the U.S. and China have sharpened. The Bush administration wants China to overhaul many of its trade policies. In addition to changing the value of its currency, the U.S. wants China to clamp down on piracy of movies and other intellectual property.
The Pentagon report laid out scenarios for China's future, including a possible ``major'' economic downturn that could generate unrest and challenge communist central control. The report does not say this course is more likely than others, including rising nationalism that supports a more assertive foreign policy.
Competition for oil and other natural resources is fomenting rivalry between China and other nations. China in 2003 became the world's second-largest consumer of oil. Growing resource demands are drawing China closer to ``problem countries such as Iran, Sudan and Venezuela'' and contributing to tensions with Japan, the report said.
China, as all know, has embarked on something they really couldn't do previously ... dollar diplomacy. China is parterning with various countries to buy a little leverage and loyalty. This is very evident in Central and South America and has become worrisome to the Pentagon as it anticipates its future strategies.
All that said, they aren't there yet militarily, but, their increase in the military budget and their weapons buying has the Pentagon and many members of Congress looking closely at the intentions of the Chinese:
China is buying advanced weapons from Russia and Israel. If the European Union decided to lift its arms embargo to China, the consequences would be ``serious and numerous,'' the report said. China's swelling defense budget is estimated to be two to three times what the communist nation's government reports.
While the Pentagon study highlights China's growing military prowess and lingering uncertainty about its intentions, it also downplays some of China's capabilities, such as its naval strength, and said the U.S. ``welcomes the rise of a peaceful and prosperous China.''
``China's ability to project conventional military power beyond its periphery remains limited,'' the report said.
Chinese military strategists are studying ``ancient Chinese statecraft,'' including what the Pentagon called ``strategic deception'' that may influence its development of weapons and possible confrontations.
Frankly if I were the US, I'd be all over Israel about the weapons sales (and I'd be talking to my buddy Pooty-Poot too).
And of course, as a reminder:
Major General Zhu Chenghu of the People's Liberation Army told foreign journalists last week that China was prepared to use nuclear weapons against the U.S. if it is attacked during a confrontation over Taiwan. ``We will be determined to respond,'' Zhu said.
QandO covered that last week here. If you have the time, the comments are fascinating as we find a "fellow traveler" among the commenters who is strapped to find anything the Chinese Communists have ever done to be wrong (he compares Tiananmen Square to Kent State). The thread is still active.
We also previously covered China's military buildup in some detail here, as well as the ramifications for Taiwan. However, note particularly China's "green water active defense strategy". That's a strategy built beyond Taiwan (and, frankly, assumes Taiwan to be under Chinese control).
yes, I stopped commenting on that one because that fellow traveller is just peddling his government’s propaganda. In fact, he is pushing it so hard, I have reason to believe he is one of those paid government shills we hear so much about assailing poor chinese bloggers.
Of course this is being driven by the booming Chinese economy enabling much of this expansion.
Last I heard, the Chinese Economy isn’t booming quite as much. Specifically, its last quarter was pretty bad. Whether this is a trend that will continue, I don’t know.
Don’t forget his comment that China has been a source for good in the world.
I guess this might be true if we discard
The invasion of Tibet where 17% of the population was exterminated
and the various regular democides that the PRC embarked on:
Guerilla period 1923-1949 3,466,000 Totalitarianization 1949-1953 8,427,000 Collectivization 1954-1958 7,474,000 Retrenchment 1959-1963 10,729,000 Cultural Revolution 1964-1975 7,731,000 Liberalization 1976-1987 874,000 Total 1949-1987 38,701,000
Includes 15,700,000 killed in Chinese concentration camps.
These totals do not include the 27,000,000 people who starved to death due to Mao’s mismanagement of Chinese agriculture in the early 1960s. This was the worst famine in human history, and it was caused entirely, though not deliberately, by politicians.
It might be worth a look at the Chinese military beyond the obvious questions of how many men they have in uniform, what weapons they carry into a fight, and what doctrines they train under.
Can they keep a steady stream of candy bars, dry socks, "AA" batteries and ammo flowing to their grunts on the front?
"I dunno much about logistics but I sure wish I had some."
From a commercial perspective I think it’s fair to say China lags other Asian nations in being able to provide and use modern logistics techniques. (South Korea leads, for comparison.) Catalogging, bar coding, hazard mating, load balancing, RFID, PC tracking, demand forecasting ... Lot of lessons learned from WalMart and Toyota get practiced in all commercial sectors in the U.S. I’m pretty confident in saying that Chinese manufacturers aren’t notably reliable in meeting WalMart—and that ilk’s—many and rapidly developing logistics requirements. I don’t know how directly commercial skills apply to the problems of pallet-profiling a mixed-goods load for military airlift on craft landing on short improvised runways—but I am ferdamshure the U.S. military is REALLY good at such matters—and getting better.
So, are there any military observers who’ve watched Chinese exercises who can comment about how well the People’s Army moves supplies?
Give me a break, China is not a threat to America. Proof: China has never throughout their history attacked a foreign country. China is going to take taiwan USA really has no control, because china’s influence in taiwan is beyond taiwan’s control. Taiwan will unite with China without a military attack.
The only threat to America is America because a creating a threat is a threat to itself.
Be more open minded.
A person who questions their country loves and careas about their country
Proof: China has never throughout their history attacked a foreign country.
Off the top of my head I can think of Tibet in 1950, India in 1962 (Sino-Indian War), and Vietnam in 1979. Additionally, Chinese soldiers participated in the fight against UN forces during the Korean War (not exactly attacking a country but foreign troops within another country).
I’m assuming by "throughout their history" you mean only since 1949, of course. I’d hate to have to go through their long military history before the Communists.
Vietnam intervened to stop the Cambodian genocide. Off course, that was against Chinese supported Khmer Rouge so the Chinese attacked Vietnam to protect their clients. What a noble goal that war was? What a glorius event in the people’s history.
Lets add the 30% extermination of Cambodian population to the list I compiled.
China has been bathed in blood. During the eight years (221-207 B.C.) that the Qin dynasty struggled for supremacy, the estimated population of China dropped from 20 million to 10 million. In the Three Kingdom period (222-589 A.D.) the population dropped from something like 50 million to about 7 million. After the Ming emperor Chang Hsien-chung conquered Szechwan province, he ordered scholars, merchants, officials, wives, and concubines murdered. He had their feet cut off and gathered into huge piles. In 1681, following the Triad Rebellion, an estimated 700,000 people were executed in one province alone. The great peace of the nineteenth century didn’t touch China where, during the 15-year Teiping Rebellion, perhaps 600 cities were reportedly ruined, and as many as 40 million people were killed.
The number of Chinese and their subjects so murdered down through the centuries must be in the tens of millions, even excluding the Mongol carnage. Putting together population crashes and massacre estimates, I guess that roughly around 34,000,000 Chinese and their subjects were killed in cold blood. It is not inconceivable that this historical democide might even exceed 90,000,000 dead.47
The sanctity of life was no greater nearer our time. During the last century in over some fifteen years the Teiping Rebellion possibly cost "tens of millions" of lives,36 maybe even as many as 40,000,000.37 Some 600 cities were "ruined."38 Because the rebellion began in the province of Kwangsi, Imperial forces allowed no rebels speaking its dialect to surrender. All were slaughtered.39 Indeed, massacre on both sides during this and the almost concurrent Nein Rebellion was general. For one county in the province of Anhwei, for example, local scholars lamented that out of a population of 300,000 Chinese, "By the time the rebels were cleared only a little over 6,000 survived. This is a catastrophe unique for the locality since the beginning of the human race."40 Overall, 70 percent of the province’s population were killed or died.41
And then this was followed by the Taiping rebellion and the corresponding slaughter of muslims in China
When the Taiping rebels captured Nanking in 1853 they killed all the Tartars garrisoning the city. But this was not enough. They also murdered all their family members. In total about 25,000 people may have been wiped out.42 When imperial troops recaptured Nanking the following year they in turn allegedly exterminated about 100,000 rebels, and in just three days.43 They followed the same quick and bloody policy in Canton and along the Pearl River. After they recaptured this area from the rebels they are said to have beheaded 700 to 800 inhabitants a day, whether rebel collaborator or not, ultimately killing another 100,000 people. Just in the province of Kwangtung, it is written that 1,000,000 were executed.44 In one province, reportedly 1,000,000 were executed! This is more than the total number of Americans killed in all the civil and international wars the United States has fought in its whole history, including the War of Independence.
But there is more. There also was the nearly concurrent Moslem uprisings with their attendant slaughter. For the province of Yunnan 5,000,000 out of 8,000,000 may have died. When the last Muslim stronghold fell to imperial forces, 20,000 men, women, and children were "put to the sword."45 In Shensi province population fell from 700,000 or 800,000 Moslems to between 20,000 and 30,000 in ten years. Even most of the 50,000 to 60,000 Moslems that fled to Kansu province perished. All told still a much larger number of Chinese were massacred by Moslem rebels or otherwise died.46
I am reminded of the old adage of the Pot and the Kettle whenever I hear some PRC drone lecture me about the evil US of A.
In 1998, an official People’s Liberation Army publishing house brought out a treatise called "Unrestricted Warfare," written by two senior army colonels, Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui. …
Cols. Qiao and Wang write approvingly of Al Qaeda, Colombian drug lords and computer hackers who operate outside the "bandwidths understood by the American military." They envision a scenario in which a "network attack against the enemy" — clearly a red, white and blue enemy — would be carried out "so that the civilian electricity network, traffic dispatching network, financial transaction network, telephone communications network and mass media network are completely paralyzed," leading to "social panic, street riots and a political crisis." Only then would conventional military force be deployed "until the enemy is forced to sign a dishonorable peace treaty."…
One thing I have been wondering is whether China is going to be providing assistance to terrorist groups and other groups and organizations that are a threat to the US as the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact countries once did. I’m beginning to think the entire concept of economic engagement with China was a huge mistake.
...30 years war...100 years war...the Crusades...colonialism in the Americas, Africa, Asia, Polynesia...The West doesn’t exactly have a nice track record over the last couple millenia, either. ...how many Native Americans were killed? What was the noble purpose behind the Indian wars? ...What was the noble purpose behind the Spanish-American War? ...What was the noble purpose behind the Mexican War? ...and that’s just the US over the last 150 years.
That doesn’t excuse China, of course. But you know: "speck in someone else’s eye, beam in your own" still applies.
On the other hand, sure, they have no place to lecture. But there’s been more spurrious anti-Chinese propaganda spewed around these last two threads than pro-.
Like, does anyone even know anything about the history of the Taiping (not teiping) rebellion? Like that it was a revolution instigated by westerners attempting to create a theocratic utopia? (and probably bankrolled by adventurists trying to find new lands to colonialize and exploit). So it should probably be blamed in Americans, too. Or are you saying the Chinese govt should have just stepped aside at the first sign of revolt? Then add the Civil War deaths to the US crimes.
The Nationalists (KMT) murdered thousands of protesting civilians to solidify their rule on Taiwan. All the Native Taiwanese wanted was their freedom. What they got was Martial Law and complete exclusion from the political process for more than 50 years.
It seems like the default attitude is: the statute of limitations for US acting badly is 4 years (new administration and all that). But some of you guys are blaming China for stuff done two thousand years ago!!!
China does have some historical claim to Tibet. China does have some historical claim to Taiwan. They also have some historical claim to Viet Nam and Korea, but choose not to press it.
So I propose an agreement: Violent invasion and violent supression of protest is a bad thing. If a govt has demonstrated a significant change of policy and leadership since a crime of invasion or suppression, they shouldn’t be beat up about it. Deal?
Let’s talk about what countries are actually doing. Let’s talk about actual capabilities and demonstrated intent. Now, at times we’ve got to consider implied intent, and sometimes we may even have to make educated guesses about intent. But going back 20 years to old administrations working under different circumstances doesn’t help, and just coarsens the debate.
For instance: there is strong evidence that the Chinese leadership miscalculated under duress at Tiananmen in June of 1989. They thought a show of force would cow the protesters. Instead, it was an inherently unstable situation that resulted in tragedy. It’s possible that orders were given to massacre, but also equally possible that the massacre was touched off by an accident/misunderstanding. But China is now two generations of leadership removed from that point. Hu Jintao is entirely different from Deng Xiaoping. The financial freedom (and even political freedom on some levels) has improved since then. They established true riot police so they wouldn’t have to send military troops to police protesters. If that isn’t enough, what is?
Hi Nathan (if it is you and not someone astroturfing your name),
This was mostly a broadside to a certain Chinese fellow traveller whose basic premise was the PRC could do no wrong.
As to numbers, all sides are bad previous to this century. That was why I made the point on a prior thread that numbers should be compared for this century without previous ones. Tong Lu Ren was eager to make comparisons for this century to last.
Even with my figures were this century alone. If we choose to have nazi war criminals face trial now for genocides committed 60 to 70 years ago, then we need to remind countries (like China) that committed more recent genocides (40 million from 1949 to 1987 is a pretty large number in my book, friend) that they need to take action. Like it or not those were definitely genocides and they need to be recognized as such. There has not been any official statement of remorse from the PRC over it.
Tibet was independent for 1300 years before the chinese invaded and exterminated 17% of the population. Time for them to say sorry for that particular genocide. Want a comparison to what the US did to natives. How many books and studies and appologies have been given regards to it.
As to historical claims, that argument is specious. There is significant evidence that the Chinese landed and settled on the west coat, and that early arboriginals were of chinese origin. Does that mean that they has historical claim to North America?
The Korea claim is completely made up. They have no real claim to the 3 ancient kingdoms of ancient Korea (Silla et al) other than a hand waving argument.
And the argument that they are not responsible Tiananmen because of a mistake is ridiculous to say the least. Sorry, I was drunk driving and killed your child. So sorry, it was a mistake, forget about it. Yeah sure..
No deal on that. They have to admit they did a bad thing and then it is a deal. I don’t see that in the PRC case.
Don’t know what point you are making with the US and 4 years.
Now I am more and more convinced that that was not written by Nathan.
The West doesn’t exactly have a nice track record over the last couple millenia (sic), either.
Wow...you’re an historical genius. The purpose of pointing out the military invasions and killing by the Chinese was in response to people claiming that China has not done that sort of thing. But of course, you didn’t catch that point because you were so eager to criticize the US. Please point to any comment that tried to argue the US hasn’t attacked other nations or people.
If that isn’t enough, what is?
You can’t be serious. Hu can certainly be credited with trying to improve the economic lives of his people. But he is a committed Marxist and his purpose is to strengthen the Communist stranglehold over China. Here are some unfavorable points from Wikipedia, the undeniable source of all that is true ;-)
As Party Secretary of the Tibetan Autonomous Region, he was responsible for a political crackdown in early 1989 that lead (sic) to the deaths of several Tibetan activists...
Although reform minded, Hu has also sometimes taken a harder line than his predecessor. Many who thought he may have been a closet liberal prior to his ascession (sic) have been sorely disappointed by his crackdowns against journalists and political dissidents...
In December 2004, the Hong Kong magazine Open quoted an alleged instruction by Hu to propaganda officials from September in which he wrote that, when managing ideology, China had to learn from Cuba and North Korea. Although North Korea had encountered temporary economic problems, its political policies were consistently correct. Open also quoted Hu as calling Mikhail Gorbachev a "betrayer of socialism".
Are Hu or most of the ruling party militaristic madmen? Not likely. But they use their Communist Party to maintain power and suppress freedom as we understand it. Gosh, Nathan, I would think that you would be appalled that thousands of people are legally executed every year in China. But, hey, they make some minor economic reforms and you’re happy. Why is it that some people freak out over the slightest perception that some freedom in America might be curtailed by repressive republicans, but they turn a blind eye to communism?
Yes, I know the difference etween the Teiping and Taiping rebellions. There were two separate rebellions you know.
Since you brougnt up the Taiping Rebellion here is a better read.
Your facts are wrong in its cause. While the rebellions leader were influenced by christianity, no westerners or western governments were involved in it. In fact western governments offered aid to the imperial govenment because of their concern over trade. I could find no reading which supports your pet anti western theory.
Hung, however, did nothing with these visions until seven years later when he began to study with Issachar J. Roberts, a Southern Baptist minister who taught him everything he would know about Christianity. With the Christianity of Roberts, Hung, some relatives, and some followers formed a new religious sect, the God Worshippers, that dedicated itself to the destruction of idols in the region around Canton.
The movement attracted followers for a variety of reasons. Western historians argue that the famines of the 1840’s inspired the Chinese to join various movements that were successfully feeding and taking care of themselves. Chinese historians stress the anti-Manchu rhetoric of Hung’s early movement. While the God Worshippers were dedicated to the destruction of idols and the stamping out of demon worship, it’s clear that they felt that the Manchu rulers were the primary propagators of demon worship. In Hung’s early philosophy, he seems to have arrived at the conclusion that the overthrow of the Manchus would help bring in the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
The movement, however, did not become open revolt until the government started to harass the God Worshippers systematically. Combined with his belief that the Kingdom of Heaven would be established on the ruins of the Manchu government, the God Worshippers were also militantly organized to destroy and eliminate demon worship. In the late 1840’s, Hung reorganized his movement into a military organization. He and other leaders systematically began to build up a treasury (all believers had to give their property to the movement), consolidate forces, and lay up a store of weapons. In December of 1850, Hung was attacked by government forces and, since he had spent so much time preparing for war, he successfuly turned back the attack. In 1851, Hung declared that a new kingdom had been established, the Kingdom of Heavenly Peace; he himself was the Heavenly King and the era of the Taiping, or "Great Peace," had begun.
Who said I’m rushing to criticize the US? I’m just amazed how quickly some people rush to castigate China.
It’s not the best place in the world, no. It’s got a long way to go, yes.
But jeez: the person probably most responsible for the Tiananmen massacre (Deng Xiaoping) has been dead for quite some time. Hu Jintao is hardly a committed Marxist. Totalitarian...well, sort of. Hu Jintao is specifically attempting to bring more transparency to the govt, and the whole top leadership is working on increasing the Rule of Law (which is actually more important to make a free country than Democracy, when you think about it: you aren’t truly free until you KNOW what the consequences of your actions will be). Hu Jintao is also very concerned with bringing the wealth and economic improvement into the rural areas...of course, if he doesn’t, he faces a potential revolt.
Never heard of the Teiping uprising. It’s funny, the link to the Taiping revolt actually proves my point. The line about "the revolt didn’t start until the govt started harassing them" is a hilarious version of "They hit me back first!". Read it again. It clearly states that the cult was militarily organized and destroying idols for more than a decade before the govt did anything...that’s pretty much just like the Taliban in Afghanistan (destroying idols and militarily organized), yanno? You know why we went into the Branch Davidian Compound...? Armed and organized action raised the hackles of our govt. AG Reno didn’t give ’em a decade to prepare (thank goodness!).a
But okay: last century is off limits. I can go with that. My point about "four years" is: If someone wanted to criticize the US, they could start with some of the extra-legal crap the BATF and FBI did under Janet Reno...but would it really be fair to blame the US for that, since we actually did vote the Democrats out of office? I don’t think so. Which is why I don’t hold Hu Jintao responsible for the Tiananmen Square massacre.
As for Tibet...well, lately, the Tibetans seem to be growing more and more satisfied with the situation, as they are starting to see the benefit of the Communist investment into infrastructure, employment, education, etc. It sucks that it took 50 years to be more fully integrated, but if the Dalai Lama is just about satisfied (and he has said that recently), it’s pretty childish to keep blaming China for it when you and your family weren’t the ones harmed.
As far as executions go, Europe says the exact same thing about the US, and Texas. Do you think we should stop capital punishment because of Europe? I don’t.
My bottom line point: You want to judge a country, judge it by how the common person lives, and how much freedom they have. 99.9% of the Chinese population has freedom to speak their mind, to get as rich as they can, to improve themselves, and to generally be pretty happy. Lots want to come to the US, yes...but lots who have come to the west want to go back.
We all hear the horror stories of people thrown into jail on a pretext...well, I’ve heard horror stories of the IRS doing the same thing. The IRS can ruin your life, too. And how much freedom do you have if a woman walking alone at night means she’s got a better-than-even chance of being raped? Most urban-dwelling women face that danger in the US.
US people criticizing China, and Chinese people criticizing the US...it strikes me as the city mouse and the country mouse, yanno? If China was clearly SOOOOOO horrible, well, the military and the police couldn’t stop the mass exodus...heck, they’d probably be the first ones gone. But it doesn’t happen.
So instead of looking at China and saying: "Ewww! That’s a different place, and so it must be horrible!", I try to think: "1.3 billion people live there, and somewhere close to 1.2 billion of them seem pretty satisfied. What might be the good things about living there?"
I don’t think you could make that same case for, say, Cuba. Or Mexico. And China in the late 60s and early 70s was just that bad. But we just don’t have the people risking everything to leave China anymore. So something is different.
I’m somewhere in the middle, I guess. I’m not trying to push moral equivalency (as I’ve been accused of before), I’m pointing out that a good portion of the negative judgment of China is subjective. If you lived there, if you grew up with it, you’d probably feel quite a bit differently.
Heck, I hear Southerners complain about the cold and snow of the North, and Northerners complain about the heat and humidity of the South. Neither can understand how the other half stands it...but somehow it all works out.
So instead of looking at China and saying: "Ewww! That’s a different place, and so it must be horrible!", I try to think: "1.3 billion people live there, and somewhere close to 1.2 billion of them seem pretty satisfied. What might be the good things about living there?"
Isn’t this a bit like the old "sure, they were slaves, but they’re happy! You can tell they are by the way they rattle their chains rhythmically!" line?
I mean, sure, many Chinese are satisfied. So are many North Koreans. They don’t know any better, and they damned sure aren’t allowed to hear otherwise.
Why did you resort to comparing the US to China? Had anyone else? Could you have tried to make the argument that China has changed/improved without attacking American history as a comparison?
the person probably most responsible for the Tiananmen massacre (Deng Xiaoping) has been dead for quite some time.
Jiang Zemin, personally picked by Deng, was in office until 2003.
Hu Jintao is hardly a committed Marxist.
Really? The Central Committee might be a little upset to learn about Hu’s lack of commitment. Here is some reporting from the far right media organization known as the BBC in January 2005:
one leading liberal intellectual who agreed to talk to the BBC said Mr Hu had already proved himself "more fundamentalistic" than either of his two predecessors.
"He is a very determined communist leader," said Liu Junning of the Chinese Cultural Research Institute.
"After the resignation of his rival he is more powerful than before. And apparently he wants to be even more powerful."
Maybe you could point me to some sources who can demonstrate how Hu is "different" than his predecessors?
As far as executions go, Europe says the exact same thing about the US, and Texas. Do you think we should stop capital punishment because of Europe? I don’t.
I’ve been "on record" as opposing the death penalty, but not because of Europe. How does this not sound like you are making a moral equivalence between China’s death penalty and ours? You really have some serious issues to work out. Try reading a little about who and how many are executed in both countries before you compare them. Then get back to me.
If you lived there, if you grew up with it, you’d probably feel quite a bit differently.
Family members who have done this started my interest in China years ago. Many people can attest to the lack of basic freedoms in China. Are you saying that freedom is not important as long as you get a paycheck?
99.9% of the Chinese population has freedom to speak their mind, to get as rich as they can, to improve themselves, and to generally be pretty happy.
Freedom to speak their mind? Really? All but 0.1%? And they all have the legal opportunity to become rich? What have you been reading?
We all hear the horror stories of people thrown into jail on a pretext...well, I’ve heard horror stories of the IRS doing the same thing. The IRS can ruin your life, too.
Oh yeah...the IRS is rounding up thousands of "dissidents" executing some and putting the rest into re-education camps. Moral equivalency again? Or do you deny that China still does this?
And how much freedom do you have if a woman walking alone at night means she’s got a better-than-even chance of being raped? Most urban-dwelling women face that danger in the US.
You must be an idiot if you believe this...I’m sorry to resort to pathetic name-calling, but this statement is just dumb. Unless you can provide me with evidence supporting your "statistical" worry?
So instead of looking at China and saying: "Ewww! That’s a different place, and so it must be horrible!
Yeah, I’m just a xenophobe.
I try to think: "1.3 billion people live there, and somewhere close to 1.2 billion of them seem pretty satisfied.
Even if this was true, you’re saying you don’t care about the other 100 million people? (BTW, your new statistic works out to only 92.3% of the people being satisfied. I thought it was 99.9%?)
Heck, I hear Southerners complain about the cold and snow of the North, and Northerners complain about the heat and humidity of the South. Neither can understand how the other half stands it...but somehow it all works out.
Moral equivalency, again. Maybe you don’t understand how moral equivalency operates?
Never heard of the Teiping uprising. It’s funny, the link to the Taiping revolt actually proves my point. The line about "the revolt didn’t start until the govt started harassing them" is a hilarious version of "They hit me back first!". Read it again. It clearly states that the cult was militarily organized and destroying idols for more than a decade before the govt did anything...that’s pretty much just like the Taliban in Afghanistan (destroying idols and militarily organized), yanno?
That was an odd way to respond to my post. Originally, You suggested that Teiping and Taiping were the same rebellion and that Taiping was instigated by western powers. I said they were not and provided historical source material to back up my hypothesis. You tried to use that as yet another stick against the west and it was not. Read it again. Personally, I am not trying to justify theit actions either way. My point was that you were wrong in this particular aspect.
And then there is this:
My bottom line point: You want to judge a country, judge it by how the common person lives, and how much freedom they have. 99.9% of the Chinese population has freedom to speak their mind, to get as rich as they can, to improve themselves, and to generally be pretty happy. Lots want to come to the US, yes...but lots who have come to the west want to go back.
Sorry, man, but the facts say otherwise. At least in the US the words democracy and freedom are not illegal and as much as people complain about the patriot act we don’t have to face this.
Nathan, I perfectly understand that you are a Sino-phile and probably you have a number of personal connections to China. But comparing the state of life in the US and PRC China and complaining about the US is a bit rich. I worked in Singapore, Indonesia, Guangduong, Beijing, and Japan for a fair amount of time. I am not making my arguments as a naif. My wife is from the Philippines and I have spent a lot of time there. It is her country and she looks at it in the same rose colored lenses. But that does not mean I have to either. We agree not to discuss and homelife is better. ;)
I wasn’t going to add to that, because there is too little common ground upon which for us to continue a discussion, but I found I have to add this:
From today’s Best of the Web:
Revalue This
...Today’s currency unpegging (if it’s really so) will be an important test of this macroeconomic juggling act.
...Unless we badly overestimate Beijing, the revaluation that began today (and whose extent is far from clear) was not a concession to foreign pressure, or an attempt to smooth the way for Chinese oil company CNOOC’s bid for Unocal, or a bouquet for President Hu Jintao to bring when he visits Washington in the fall. It was a bet that China’s economy is ready to turn toward "intensive," rather than "extensive," development—moving up the technological and services food chain, relying more on skills and less on drawing uneducated peasants into the job market. It also means devoting more resources to satisfying domestic demand with domestic production. That means China will have to start making better use of domestic savings—and an important sign to watch for is a greater opening to private and foreign banks than has been allowed so far.
Currency valuation? Job Market? Corporate acquisitions? That is the antithesis of Marxism. As in "market economy". Which means: capitalism. All presided over (and probably brought about) by Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabo. Marxist? Don’t make me laugh.
All presided over (and probably brought about) by Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabo. Marxist? Don’t make me laugh.
I’ll grant you that Chinese economic policy does not follow pure Marxist theory. The move to privatize the majority of production began with Deng, who promoted his "seek truth from facts" philosophy to justify amending pure economic Marxism. Deng argued that China was in the first stage of socialism and was still developing through the stages of Marxism to reach ultimate communism (Marxism involves much more than just state control of production). Depending on how you want to define "Marxism" it is certainly arguable that Hu is not a "Marxist." The Chinese leadership believes (or at least argue) they have advanced Marxism to a more effective philosophy in order to achieve the perfect state. They certainly retain the right to reclaim property at their whim.
Now, that’s a Rule of Law problem. I agree with you 100% there.
...but as Kelo showed us, a lack of strong property rights doesn’t equal Marxism.
China is moving farther and farther away from Marxism. Deng Xiaoping just threw that "stage" figleaf over his shift so he wouldn’t spark off another Cultural Revolution socialist purism movement.
So here’s my basic question(s), which has gone absolutely unanswered: If China is so horrible, why don’t we have people fighting to get out like they do in Mexico and Cuba? If China is so horrible, why do so many Chinese people go back?
The only reason I "attacked" the US (if a commitment to facts is an "attack") is that it probably wouldn’t be useful to compare China’s mistakes/crimes to that of say, Mauritania or St Kitts, since I have no knowledge of them and I would expect few other people would, either. Most Americans should have a passing understanding of US history, and so a reminder should be all people need in order to remember that the US doesn’t always wear a white hat...and in most of our history, we were just as expansionist, hegemonistic, imperialist, etc, as everyone else was. But so what? It’s in the past.
Except that another question that usually goes absolutely unanswered in questions like these is: when does something stop being a "current issue" and start being something in the past? Most people arbitrarily choose a date that makes their argument look good. But why should the year 1900 be the right year? When a society has a multi-millenial history, why should something 150 years ago be off-limits? Maybe it should be, sure, but the reason should be consistent with the arguement people are trying to make, and it usually isn’t anything more than "US Good, every other nation Bad". We’ve done some crappy things since 1900, too...Why did the Reds hate the US, by the way? (I know the answer, but it isn’t really talked about much)
My point is: all govts do stupid things, it seems. All govts first and foremost mission is to keep themselves in power. Then they take care of donors and their power base. Then, and only then, do they take care of the nation as a whole. And then somewhere down the line, they maybe worry about what other nations think. So since we can’t get China to do what we want by complaining, cajoling, or blaming. I’m convinced we’ve got to engage and give good inducements for China to continue to improve their commitment to Rule of the Law.
But cutting off trade because of Tiananmen just pisses people off. Especially because it’s been 16 years. So why do people always hammer that? And why do people inflate a punitive (and unsuccessful) expedition into Viet Nam in 1979 into a conquering invasion? (same thing with border disputes with India and Russia) Since the Tibetans seem to be pretty much okay with being a part of China these days, (having integrated somewhat better than Hawaii has integrated in the US, which was also grabbed using violence and dishonorable manipulation...although less death than Tibet), why does that get hammered every time? It just irritates the people we should be trying to build trust with.
China is moving farther and farther away from Marxism.
I hope you are right. But we’re going to have to agree to disagree because from my education and experience you are being too superficial with your description of how China interprets and teaches Marxism.
It just irritates the people we should be trying to build trust with.
Um, claiming they are moving away from Marxism is very insulting.
And why do people inflate a punitive (and unsuccessful) expedition into Viet Nam in 1979 into a conquering invasion?
Who did that? Again, you miss the point that no one in this comment thread talked about Chinese aggression until it was claimed that the Chinese had not attacked a foreign country. It was shown that they did several times. That’s it. As far as Tiananmen Square is concerned, it is relevent because China’s policies toward political opposition and dissent has not changed. Additionally, China continues to deny or lie about the incident to its own people. The only thing the government learned was that by killing protesters openly gets them in trouble with world opinion. They continue to severely harrass, imprision, and execute political dissidents.
So here’s my basic question(s), which has gone absolutely unanswered: If China is so horrible, why don’t we have people fighting to get out...why do so many Chinese people go back?
I’m wondering what your sources are for your emmigration/immigration statements? Here is a 2004 article on Chinese migration:
[P]eople from China began moving overseas in increasing numbers after the economic reforms of 1979. They primarily went to the most developed parts of the world in Australasia, North America, Europe, and East Asia. There appears to be little evidence to indicate a slowing of these migrations in the near future.
The article continue to address how increasing economic prosperity is affecting migration, of course. You might speculate that as long as the government controls information and education, and unless you know of somewhere "better" to go (and have the resources to make the trip), how are you going to emmigrate? Additionally, I won’t argue that there are increasing economic opportunities within China. I don’t believe I ever said we should avoid doing business with China, but we shouldn’t ignore how the Chinese leadership operates either.
China is moving farther and farther away from Marxism
I agree. But their leadership are still committed Communists. They have only faced the fact that they must incorporate some degree of market economics into the otherwise Communist State. Hell, even the Soviet Union did that...to some limited degree.
The question is whether this is a trend, or a means to an end? I hope for the former—and our policy should be shaped to encourage that—but history indicates the latter.
Why aren’t the Chinese apparently widely unhappy? Probably for a mix of cultural and communication reasons. They live in a culture where stoicism is the only acceptable attitude, making waves is culturally unacceptable, and they are actively prevented from hearing the other side.
I just came across an interesting answer to Nathan’s emmigration/immigration question:
Mainland China has become the number one immigration source country for Canada. 40,296 immigrants from mainland China entered Canada in 2001: 16.1 percent of the total number of immigrants that year (Citizenship and Immigration Canada, 2001:8). Most of these immigrants were well trained and experienced professionals seeking good opportunities in Canada. However, after entering the country, many of them found difficulties in obtaining professional jobs they expected, and consequently, they experienced downward occupational mobility.
Is it possible that many professionals do want to leave China (and do), but some also return because language difficulties and other problems make it difficult for them to prosper?
I was wondering where you xenophobics ran and hid. I went back and could not find the thread anymore. Is that how you bubs do things - lose a debate, then delete the thread?
As usual, this thread is so very shotgun in its approach, I do not even know where to begin. But I will try.
1. Line up all your immigration/emigration statistics. How many moved AWAY from China in the last 20 years, for ANY reason.
Those numbers are dwarfed by the over 1 million of the best of the best of Taiwan (the technologists, the engineers, the businessmen, the entrepreneurs), who moved to the Mainland with their families and their life savings - over US$160 Billion’s worth, to settle and prosper.
If China and the CPC are so bad, how can that happen? Check reality sometimes, bubs. Did America, allegedly the immigrant magnet of the world, get any immigrants from any region of the world in those numbers, AND with the immigrants bring in that kind of dough?
2. The Chinese are moving away from Marxism. Yes, we are. Why would the Chinese be insulted by that statement? Socialism With Chinese Characteristics is well designed for change. SWCC is not burdened by dogma like the governments of the West (like America), and SWCC amplifies what works, and discards what does not. What is Marxism? It is only a name ascribed to a political ideology. Why would China want to be bogged down by any one ideology? The capable and dedicated 4th generation Chinese leaders are trying out new policies every day, and are adjusting the governing according to the efficacies and the results. By all measures, they are succeeding like no other.
With the 2% upward adjustment in China’s Yuan, China’s growth this year is actually 11.5%, at 1.8% inflation, and no reduction in exports. The Chinese really like that a lot. That’s what the world calls effective governing.
Are you bubs gonna run and hide from Tongluren again?
How can China not worry about threats? Just look at the West’s double standards, even where it comes to terrorism.
You have here, full on, a terrorist training film, full of hate speech and even showing by example a mindless act of terrorism, namely the suicide bombing of an embassy. Do we hear any condemnation by the Western press?
NO........ The San Francisco Chronicle (yes, the same "impartial mainstream press" that last week published the "opinion" of Congressman D’Amato, stating that China has 1.8 population) just glibly commented on the fact that these young terrorists have nothing better to do than to smoke grass and court American women. As as long as they smoke grass and court American gals, they must be A.O.K.
Double standard to the extreme. Why should the world help in exterminating terrorists if you glorify them through Hollywood. What is good must be universal.
"Why aren’t the Chinese apparently widely unhappy? Probably for a mix of cultural and communication reasons. They live in a culture where stoicism is the only acceptable attitude, making waves is culturally unacceptable, and they are actively prevented from hearing the other side."
I believe the main reason is that the Chinese do not have the "freedom" of getting porn piped right into their living room. Y’know, mf, mmf, mmmmmmmmmf, mmmmmmmmffff, mm, mmm, mmmmmmmm, bdsm, rape, incest, snuff, kiddie porn, all available to children as young as 2 right there in their family homes, like the way it is all over America.
That must be why.
What "other side" do the Chinese not hear? Anyone watching TV in China (and that’s over 95% of the 1.3 billion) do see what the outside world looks like, and the Chinese find it very entertaining that a practice as silly as holding periodic liars’ contest spectacles alleged to select national leaders (candidacy for whom is chosen by the ruling elite and the "voters" have no say), can be allowed to waste so much resource. What is America’s problem? Trade deficit and nobody in the world wants to buy what America has to offer in terms of products and services? Now you’d thunk the pols would at least spend half of their time working on re-educating America so that the nation can be competitive again. You see that happening?
I wondered where you went! I’m not sure why you think the last thread is hidden or deleted...it’s linked right in this thread if you read it. It also still exists on its own.
Line up all your immigration/emigration statistics. How many moved AWAY from China in the last 20 years, for ANY reason.
I have already linked to one source showing that more people emigrate from China than immigrate since at least 1979. I have other sources that also say China loses more than it gains. Unless you care to back up your claims with actual evidence, I’ll assume you don’t really know the facts. BTW, is it possible that wealthy people from Taiwan may want to relocate to the mainland since China keeps threatening to use mlitary force against the island?
Did America, allegedly the immigrant magnet of the world, get any immigrants from any region of the world in those numbers
During what span of time are you talking about? You obviously want to ignore Mexico since you threw in the money qualifier. In 2004 we received (legally) 1 million immigrants from the world. Over the past 20 years it has been 20 million. How many immigrants are coming to China from OTHER countries (unless you’re including Taiwan as a separate country?)
The Chinese are moving away from Marxism. Yes, we are. Why would the Chinese be insulted by that statement?
I’m wondering if you are aware of Hu’s repeated statements that the Chinese should increase their knowledge and dedication to Marxism? Is he lying to the Chinese people?
What "other side" do the Chinese not hear?
As I’ve pointed out several times, with links, the Chinese education system either omits or lies about Tiananmen Square, as just one example. Since you’ve never answered my question about how many where killed (even though I answered about Kent State) I’m assuming you don’t really know or are afraid to say. Additionally, what can you tell me about the Chinese military takeover of Tibet?
Here are the usual accusations, actually from a Zangdu (Tibet secessionist), and my response thereto.
" What does US history have to do w/ human rights in Tibet? "
America is the richest country in the world. What it does sets the de facto standard. China’s action compares very favorably with what the world leader does, by far.
"The truth is China wants to do to Tibetans what America did to Native Indians over 150 years ago: wipe them out & make them a impoverished minority. "
Before New China, Tibetan natives were stuck under the administration of the local theocracy (which derived its power to rule from Beijing). They did not even own the clothes they wear or the food they eat, or their own lives. They were slaves, most of them, owned by the Dalai in his 14 incarnations and his slaveowner nobles (your ancestors, no doubt). Today, Tibetan natives have never been as rich historically. They own land, they own apartments, they can be all that they wish to be, as productive and happy first class Chinese citizens.
"Neither you nor the PRC actually cares on whit for Tibetan human rights, religion or self-determination."
You’re damn right, when it comes to threatening China’s sovereignty claims. Again, look to the world leader and see what is to be done with terrorists, and China will not hesitate to so the same. Call it what you will, but that is the sworn duty of any government, and the Chinese leaders would be amiss if they are not vigilant.
"If the Dalai Lamas were so evil, then why did the PRC promise to preserve the rule of the Dalai Lamas in the 1951 17-Point Agreement?"
The Chinese leaders were duped. They truly believed that this is a holy man, and he has, like his 13 other incarnations before him, sworn allegiance to the Chinese nation. So the miscreant was honored and given a high post. But he turned coat and led a military revolt against the mother nation. There is nothing more despicable than that. 17-Point, 23-Points, why does it matter? You think Benedict Arnold still gets his military pension after he defected to the Brits?
"You also fail to address why most Tibetans today remain devout Buddhists and followers of the Dalai Lama . . . ."
Because they were BRAINWASHED!!! Don’t worry, with increased tourism and opening of the religious scene, there will be a better balance in coming years. There will be Christians and Islamics, and other branches of Buddhism will fluorish - as it was perhaps 1,000 years ago, before the Dalai’s branch exterminated the other Buddhist sects in bloody conflict. There will be 100 Flowers blooming.
"The Dalai Lama proposes that Tibetans be allowed to choose their own govt,"
Tibetan natives are minorities within China, and they are Chinese citizens with the same rights as any other Chinese citizens. They are represented in the legislature in Tibet (which is over 95% Tibetan). So I do not know what you are talking about. The fact that this legislature does not like your turncoat spiritual leader, is a fact. So learn to live with it.
I have nothing to do with the CPC. I am just a red blooded Chinese who cannot stand liars like you, who spew ill will and defame China and the Chinese.
Look at what America did in California, and where California is today. If anything, China should and must speed up the modernization of Tibet, and involve more of the China population - natives, Hans, and other minorities. I expect to see the big city population double or triple in Tibet in the next 20 years. With people, the economy will grow, and there would be more jobs and more wealth for everybody. The future for the Tibet SAR indeed looks bright.
But the despicable Dalai would have nothing to do with the success. He is destined to die in self-imposed exile. I also predict that after he dies, he will perpetrate the fraud of picking a Dalai 15 who is of European stock, to try to gain support. Maybe Richard Gere will give him a son for that purpose?
Tibet had been part of China for over 700 years. If the "normative" is that all lands must be returned to the natives, America should start and show the world by example.
The world is indeed watching with interest, the law suit by the Ohio indians for the return of 500,000 acres of prime real estate stolen in violation of "treaties" only 170 years ago. (But given the history of taking 25 years for the natives to even get to trial on trust moneys being stolen, nobody holds high hopes).
What about the A Caca bill for Hawaii. You see any chance of that passing in the American Legislature? And that does not even ask for the return of the entire Hawaii Islands - which was just a short century ago.
When all white men are removed from American soils, come see about the Chinese being removed from Tibet.
Further, how DO you even begin making comparisons between how gently and magnanimously China treats her ethnic minorities, compared to how America does it?
1. When the whites came to America, the continent was 100% natives. Today it is less than 5%. In China, even after 700 years of owning Tibet, today the natives are still more than 90% of the population of the SAR.
2. When the CPC finally kicked out the turncoat Dalai 14, about 95% of the natives in Tibet were illiterate. Today, the natives in the Tibet SAR are about 85% literate - AND that is BILINGUAL literate.
3. The CPC govt. spent literally hundreds of millions of Yuan to preserve and protect the literature (publishing for the first time King Gaza, the best know historical fiction work of Tibetan culture in all its glory - a feat that the Dalai failed to do in all of his 14 incarnations) and language and culture and religion of the natives. Today, still a large majority of the natives are Buddhists. In comparison, how many natives have a written language today? Which tribes have written histories? What is the predominant religion of native Americans today? (Answer - white men’s God - Judeo Christian, after centuries of forced "conversions.").
4. Before the CPC came, the misogynic theocracy of the Dalai dictated that women had no rights, since the are so unclean they are not even allowed to be part of the Sangha to be close to the Buddha (the Dalai was dragged over the coals by the Chi Ji nuns of Taiwan on that issue, when he visited a couple years back). Today’s Tibetan women are policepersona, teachers, lawyers, judges, legislatore, and can be all that they can be.
5. With the removal of the theocracy, the CPC also banned despicable acts such as the Lama’s use of really young girls (as young as 8) in allegedly religious ceremonies (where the girls are raped by the high lama attending - according to the recorded procedures in the scriptures). Also, those who refuse to believe in the Dalai’s brand of superstition no longer suffer having their noses shaved off (go to Potola and you can still see the implements for shaving off noses, and the cups and utensils made of human skull and bones.). Today’s Tibetan natives enjoy true religious freedom. They can believe in Christianity, Taoism, Muslim, or Buddhism (any of the 16 different kinds, and not just the Dalai’s brand), and they can even be agnostic or atheists, without fear of being persecuted.
The Chinese can truly be proud of how fairly we treat the ethnic minorities.
The exact numbers are not known. According to Wikipedia, the estimate is anywhere from 0 to a couple thousand. And that was 16 years ago, and a one time deal.
How does that compare with the number of civilians killed as part of American led or imposed "sanctions", or flat arse "collateral damage" every single year in the last 16? How come a one time thing is more despicable than ongoing atrocities degrees of magnitudes larger in numbers?
There is no arguing with folks that only see the splinter in the other’s eye, but refuse to acknowledge that log fairely sticking out of his own.
With the 2% upward adjustment in China’s Yuan, China’s growth this year is actually 11.5%,
Uh, no. Revaluing your currency does not increase your GDP. It merely increases the nominal price of your output. There’s a difference.
I believe the main reason is that the Chinese do not have the "freedom" of getting porn piped right into their living room.
[shrug] Well, in America, the people who want to see porn can do so. And the people who don’t....don’t.
If the Chinese people are incapable of governing themselves, then perhaps you do need a government to tell you what to do. I can’t really make fun of you for needing that kind of supervision, though. When I was 6 years old, my parents had to do the same thing for me.
Of course, I grew up.
What "other side" do the Chinese not hear?
Oh, I’ve read the Chinese media. It’s laughable, in that—much like yourself—it’s congenitally incapable of self-criticism. It’s a government and a media by and for the regime.
But, since you’ve already conceded that the Chinese people aren’t capable of self-governance, I guess you might just need your hand held for you.
What is America’s problem? Trade deficit and nobody in the world wants to buy what America has to offer in terms of products and services?
I’m not sure you know what "trade deficit" means. It doesn’t mean "nobody in the world wants to buy why America has to offer". In fact, we have quite a lot of exports. A rather large amount.
Marxism with Chinese Characteristics. What is that? It is what works.
If you would actually read what I wrote, this was my exact point to Nathan. I even provided a little history behind it.
I am just a red blooded Chinese who cannot stand liars like you, who spew ill will and defame China and the Chinese.
Um, dude...please point out one of MY comments and explain how it is a lie. I didn’t say anything factual or opinionated about Tibet other than the Chinese took control of it militarily in 1950. I was just wondering what you were taught.
As far as Tiananmen Square is concerned, how can you not know exactly how many were killed? Did the bodies just disappear and their families forget about them? Doesn’t the Chinese government acknowledge the truth about what happened? Aren’t the facts available to the Chinese people? Thank you for proving my point!
Now, how about explaining how my emigration claim is a lie? Do you dispute that more people continue to emigrate than immigrate?
Stop changing the subject by trying to say America has treated people badly...that’s not news and you won’t get much argument from me. In fact, one of the big complaints from the "far-right" about our public schools (in which I teach) is that we teach kids too much about our country’s poor treatment of others. You are the only one (along with Nathan) who seems to deny that the Chinese government continues to lie about or hide the truth from its citizens concerning history and dissent in China. That is the only argument I have been making, and you continue to demonstrate it perfectly. Thank you.
If you wish to continue arguing, then please point out specifically where I have lied and how I am wrong. I am willing and eager to learn. Are you?
The truth of the TAM incident was that it was a coup engineered by the CIA, and was a predecessor to the myriad "color revolutions" in the ex-USSR spinoffs. China almost did not survive that coup, and would have been cut up to 7 pieces.
But China did not. Today China is gaining ground, and fast. And you can count on the fact that there are accounts to be squared, one day. We Chinese have very long memories.
You on the other hand, banana, totally ignores the fact that in the eyes of the whites, there are no good n*ggers and the only good Chinck is a dead one. When that concentration camp opens its doors, it’s got your name and the names of your parents and children on it. You can mark my words for it. I do not understand your type at all - you wake up in the morning and look into the mirror, and totally hate what you see. You cannot change the fact that you are brown almond eyed and dark haired, though you wished everyday to be blue and blond. So you transfer your self hatred into libelling the nation of your ancestors without shame. You are worse than a Quisling.
How does telling bad lies about your own kind make you feel superior? That is you motivation, is it not? You are so dumb you don’t even realize that white men cannot tell the difference whether or not you lick their boots and kick other Chinese. To them, you are just another Chinck.
So Americans are capable of governing themselves? You are so dumb you don’t even realize that you’ve been lied to all your life. Either that or you are one of the elite, a demagogue.
You grew up, yeah, you grew up addicted to porn, like the rest of your countrymen, so that you now enjoy a society that mistakes irresponsiblity for freedom, and you deserve every bit of it - your mother, your sister, and your daughters and their daughters are 50 times more likely to be raped at least once in their lifetimes than in China; these same females have a 95% chance of getting raped before turning 18 (or at least the statutory version). An entire society look at women as sex objects and f*ck toys, to be abused. That’s why no matter where your GIs go, they rape, and they rape children. Okinawa, S. Korea, Iraq. No exception.
And you celebrate that "freedom," as if it is no big deal.
Yes, you and your kind deserve every bit of the consequences.
Indeed, I do. For instance, I have the freedom to either look at, or not look at, porn. I get to choose.
Or rather, now that I’m married, my wife gets to choose for me.
you now enjoy a society that mistakes irresponsiblity for freedom
No, I enjoy a society that leaves it to the individual to work out their own responsibility. You would prefer somebody tell you what your responsibility is.
That’s fine. I mean, I probably spent 16 years of my life being told what I had to do, too. Let me know when your country grows up enough to make those decisions for themselves.
You on the other hand, banana, totally ignores the fact that in the eyes of the whites, there are no good n*ggers and the only good Chinck is a dead one.
Good God, man. Where is this coming from?
You cannot change the fact that you are brown almond eyed and dark haired
I always thought I was kind of cute!
And you can count on the fact that there are accounts to be squared, one day. We Chinese have very long memories.
That sounds like a threat, unless I am misunderstanding you. Why is a long memory necessary? I thought it was wrong to look back into the past few years.
The truth of the TAM...
Even if you are correct, you still don’t know how many were killed. Why is that? What does that tell you? Is that what is making you so angry?
How does telling bad lies about your own kind make you feel superior?
Please, point to one lie and correct it, rather than spew venum and hatred. I told you I was willing to learn the truth.
The U.S. made attrocious mistakes. The Subjugation of Native Americans, among other things. However,how many official government apologies can you find ON RECORD? If you do a little research,you’ll find that there have been at LEAST 32 official apologies for those actions. Some apply specifically to Tribes (Seminoles,Creeks) some apply to the group as a whole. How many times has the PRC apologized for the Tibetan Genocide? How about the TAM? Maybe an official press release about the invasions of Mongolia, Vietnam, Tibet, India, and Russia? We won’t touch on the Taiwaneese conflict,but the fact is,your government will not ADMIT that they’ve done nothing wrong. Thus they have defined their actions as acceptable (in their own eyes only). At least the American Population condemns the actions of Andrew Jackson against the Native Americans. How about the Chinese? No? Then theres no rational debate to be had.
...but the fact is,your government will not ADMIT that they’ve done nothing wrong.
Huh? If they’ve done nothing wrong, what have they to admit?
Oh, and why are you going back to the wars with indians to find something to pin on America? In the entire existence of the US, it can’t hold a candle to the murder and death perpetrated by the PRC regime since just 1949.
