What the judge is saying, if I interpret this properly, is the school can’t require "under God" be said. Really? I’ll admit I haven’t read the actual decision, but all the news accounts, including the quote you lifted, say: A federal judge declared the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools unconstitutional That would be the Pledge with or without ’under God’, and it’s not a case of ’You can keep silent’ or ’You can speak up’, it’s ’Thou shalt not say the Pledge in school, even if thou wantest to’... I’ve even read a quote from the judge in question saying that he dismissed the question of ’under God’ being unConstitutional in favor of just banning the Pledge altogether.
I expect a reversal on the solution, at least, if only in the name of Free Speech, but I don’t know if the 9th Circuit will do it, or it will have to wait until the Supreme Court.
Btw, the judge in question is a Carter appointee, for the curious. |
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Written By:
Dave
URL:
http://www.thepatriette.com/dangerous
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I think the news descriptions are over broad. The only way I can conceive of him banning the pledge is by pointing to "under God". I’d question his authority to ban it for any other reason. And, of course, it’s based in a case initiated by Michael Neudow who’s entire argument concerned the removal of "under God".
Oh, and the ruling, from what I’ve heard, applies only to 3 school districts in CA. |
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Written By:
McQ
URL:
http://qando.net
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It seems to me that its blatantly unconstitutional, as per the first amendment, for the school to lead the students in an oath that affirms the existance of God. As for the rest of the issues that have been raised, I’m not sure if thats a matter of bad reporting or a bad decision.
It is well established that students still retain constitutional rights in school, including the right to pray or affirm god. If this decision merely prevents the school from leading the students in it, that seems all well and good. If this decision prevents a student from reciting it in any way at all, then all I can say is "WTF?".
I guess I will have to read into this a bit more closely. |
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Written By:
Rosensteel
URL:
http://
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It seems to me that its blatantly unconstitutional, as per the first amendment, for the school to lead the students in an oath that affirms the existance of God. Oh yes, the horror of it all. I was scarred, scarred I tell you, to have had to say those two horrible words when I was growing up. Not really. For that matter, I don’t see how "under God" affirms the existance of anything. |
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Written By:
Mark
URL:
http://
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The whole pledge of allegiance thing is really quite silly, you know. I can’t believe so much court time — and school time, for that matter — is wasted on it. |
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Written By:
Bitter
URL:
http://qando.net/
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The obvious question is "when will our money be put under scrutiny?" Every piece of American cash has "In God We Trust" upon it. |
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Written By:
CyanCyde
URL:
http://
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I never understood this. It was my impression that when we said "...under god", it meant God in the generic sense. Everyone has their own God, even if their God is science. More then anything I thought it was aligned with "our creator", as in the Declaration of Independence. Of course, if they want to keep pushing this, the next logical step is that we really have no rights, since they are endowed by our creator, and well, we know who has most of the guns. Sometimes common sense is lost on these guys. |
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Written By:
Wilky
URL:
http://
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Wilky Everyone has their own God, even if their God is science. By that "logic," the term "God" pretty much becomes meaningless. |
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Written By:
Stoop Davy Dave
URL:
http://
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Which is the point of these battles.... Trying to make God meaningless, that is.
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Written By:
Bithead
URL:
http://bitheads.blogspot.com
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The obvious question is "when will our money be put under scrutiny?" Every piece of American cash has "In God We Trust" upon it. Indeed, and why should it? That’s only been true since the Civil War era. I for one would just as soon see it go back to the way it was before that—I suppose I’m an originalist in that sense.Which is the point of these battles.... Trying to make God meaningless, that is. Ironically, only from the religious, it seems (see Wilky, above). We irreligious folk just want the religious folk to stop making us pay for and acknowledge God, no matter how meaningful or meaningless He is to others.we know who has most of the guns. Sometimes common sense is lost on these guys. Nice. I guess only God and the hellfire of eternal damnation keep him from going postal on me for disagreeing with him. ("hold me back, God, hold me back!!!"). If there is a God, I certainly hope it’s true that He judges men by their hearts, not just by their actions. |
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Written By:
David in AK
URL:
http://
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"hold me back, God, hold me back!!!" LOL! Classic.
Incidentally, I’m with you on this. Get "god" out of the pledge and off our money. If your god can’t survive without government subsidy, perhaps he’s not really worth worshiping after all. |
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Written By:
Jon Henke
URL:
http://www.QandO.net
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Actually David, as far as I’m concerned, religion is run by a bunch of hustlers and I haven’t stepped inside a church, other than weddings, since the day I moved out of my parents house, 29 years ago. Bit lump me all you want.
As I said, I believe God is used as a generic term. If it offends you, deal with. I’m offeded by the socialistic tendencies this country seems to have. I deal with, and pay my taxes. Its called tolerance. If there is a God, I hope that is how he will judge us. As a wise man once said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I’m sure that in his heart, Chamberlain thought he was doing the right thing, yet more died than had to, because of his work. |
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Written By:
Wilky
URL:
http://
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Actually David, as far as I’m concerned, religion is run by a bunch of hustlers and I haven’t stepped inside a church, other than weddings, since the day I moved out of my parents house, 29 years ago. Bit lump me all you want.
As I said, I believe God is used as a generic term. If it offends you, deal with. I’m offeded by the socialistic tendencies this country seems to have. I deal with, and pay my taxes. Its called tolerance. If there is a God, I hope that is how he will judge us. As a wise man once said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I’m sure that in his heart, Chamberlain thought he was doing the right thing, yet more died than had to, because of his work. |
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Written By:
Wilky
URL:
http://
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Wilky: I believe God is used as a generic term. It’s a generic term for a specific type of idea.
It’s the specific type of idea that the Constitution says our government has no business promulgating.
So when government promulgates it, folks complain, on constitutional grounds.
Illus:
IF the term "God" were as "generic" as you imply, here: Everyone has their own God, even if their God is science. THEN this algebra would work:
(appealing to God) = (appealing to Science), in an argument about paleontology.
Also:
(appealing to God) = (appealing to the Constitution), in an argument about federal policy.
But you don’t really consider those to be the same things, do you?
The things that you’re trying to define as being equivalent to each other, actually ain’t.
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Written By:
Stoop Davy Dave
URL:
http://
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I’m not trying to say they are equivalent, and I do understand what your saying. But, lets go back to the Declaration of Independence, and take out "our creator". Who endowed us with certain unalienable rights, those being Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness? Other human beings? Then why those human beings? And why not I’ll just take what I think is my rights, which you won’t agree with me on? If it is given by other human beings, then these rights aren’t so "unalienable" anymore, not with human nature as it is. Keep in mind I’m saying this with the full understanding that life is really just a game, and every game needs its rules.
When I say generic, I mean when a christian says god they think of Jesus, a muslum thinks of Allah, a follower of Hindu thinks of Brahman, I think of nature, and an atheist would think of science(I presume). Nowhere does the government tell you who to worship. Its not so hard, we have been doing it for decades, and the only people who are complaining are those that offended by the word God. As I said earlier theres a lot that offends me in this country but I don’t try to legislate my views onto others. |
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Written By:
Wilky
URL:
http://
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Wilky: When I say generic, I mean when a christian says god they think of Jesus, a muslum thinks of Allah, a follower of Hindu thinks of Brahman, I think of nature, and an atheist would think of science(I presume). That’s actually not such a good presumption.
When a Christian or a Muslim or a Hindu says "God," he’s talking about the creator and ruler of the universe, under one brand-name or another.
When a Christian or a Muslim or a Hindu OR an atheist says "science," he’s talking about a methodology for figuring out what’s true.
Many or maybe even most scientists are theists, but few if any of them treat the terms "science" and "God" as being interchangeable. Atheists don’t either.
The technical term for this stuff is "nonoverlapping magesteria," iirc.
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Written By:
Stoop Davy Dave
URL:
http://
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Fair enough on my presumtion. Though I must say that the atheist that I personally know, none scientist, say they put their faith in science over God, hence my presumption. You don’t suppose they (atheist) can overlook the word God while I overlook abortion, do you?
Not that it is a ’your an atheist then you for abortion’ thing, just things that we must overlook to peacefully live among one another. |
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Written By:
Wilky
URL:
http://
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Wilky:I must say that the atheist that I personally know, none scientist, say they put their faith in science over God, Depends on the question at hand, dunnit? . You don’t suppose they (atheist) can overlook the word God while I overlook abortion, do you? Not that it is a ’your an atheist then you for abortion’ thing, just things that we must overlook to peacefully live among one another.
I can overlook lots of stuff. Watch me just now. |
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Written By:
Stoop Davy Dave
URL:
http://
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