France: Just the beginning? Posted by: McQ
on Tuesday, November 08, 2005
As Ralph Peters notes, these riots will eventually sputter out, not because the French government will have any effect, but because rioters will simply tire of the activity.
But that brings the pregnant question: what next? While its eventual end will give France a short pause and a period upon which to reflect on the "why" of this explosion, will it give them the time to fix the problem? Peters is of the opinion that's simply not possible because racism in France runs too deep.
There is no Western country more profoundly racist than France. There's nothing resembling equal-opportunity programs or affirmative action. Even if the government attempts some half-hearted reforms in the wake of the current uproar, the average French employer will have none of it (they don't even want to hire more white citoyens). And French voters will turn hard right at the next election.
Does anyone really believe that the country that enthusiastically handed over more of its Jewish citizens to the Nazis than the Nazis asked for is going to treat brown or black Muslims as equals?
And he's not the first to note that at all. Dalrymple said of France in 2002:
A kind of anti-society has grown up in them—a population that derives the meaning of its life from the hatred it bears for the other, “official,” society in France. This alienation, this gulf of mistrust—greater than any I have encountered anywhere else in the world, including in the black townships of South Africa during the apartheid years—is written on the faces of the young men, most of them permanently unemployed, who hang out in the pocked and potholed open spaces between their logements.
The comparison to South Africa's aparthied, is, in fact, very telling.
Much has been said about France's hard-line on cultural assimilation - something the left is now trying to blame on the right. That won't sell. It isn't a problem of left or right, it's a problem of the culture of France as Catherine Field notes in her article in the International Herald Tribune:
The violence has hammered France on its faultlines of race and poverty; on the decades-long failure of all governments, left and right, to embrace integration with more than lip service. "We have been engaged in a form of ethnic, social and territorial apartheid, segregation, for at least 30 years," said Manuel Valls, a Socialist legislator and mayor of Evry, a new town south of Paris where half the population has foreign roots.
In fact I've seen it said that French has rejected "multi-culturalism" for a unicultural society. Well that may have been the "official" position, but it was hardly the defacto position. The defacto position is segregation akin to apartheid, pure and simple. The position has nothing to do with either a multi-cultural or unicultural society. It had to do with a "separate and not equal" society despite French lip service to the contrary.
I'd also note that the changes necessary, were they actually to be contemplated, are probably economically and culturally impossible because the French economy is in no shape to respond to the problem and culturally I'm not sure they yet understand they have a race problem. The economic aspects of the problem will take decades to address, and the race aspect even longer. The question is, does France have that sort of time?
Peters doesn't think so.
Desperate apologists for France's apartheid system claim that the present uproar is merely about youthful anger, that Muslim fundamentalism isn't in play. Just wait. Islamist extremists aren't stupid. Thrilled by this spontaneous uprising, they'll move to exploit the fervor of the young to serve their own ends.
Expect terror. Whether the current violence ebbs tonight or lasts for weeks to come, the uprising of the excluded and oppressed in the streets of France has only begun.
Expoitation by what Peters calls "Criminal Enterprise Armies" in his book "New Glory" (extra national criminal organizations such as Al Queada and other extremist organizations) who will see this for what it is: a fertile ground for recruiting and exploiting the problems the riots have exposed, as well as a convenient launching pad for spreading it throughout Europe.
France, to survive, must take immediate and ruthless action to stop the riots and exert control over the areas now controlled by these CEAs. It must take just as immediate action to squarely and unflinchingly face the elephant in the room—it's defacto segregationist policies toward immigrants and it's history of racism. And it must do something about both of them—now.
Until it does, as Peters says, this is "just the beginning".
I'd have to agree.
UPDATE: France has finally declared a state of emergency. What that means is they can now call and enforce curfews and make police raids without warrants. Can you say "about time?" Wasn't it France who was heard to criticize the US federal government for taking 3 days to respond to Katrina?
Even if it does die out after the perpetrators get tired and bored, the underlying causes will not go away. This is only the beginning. The Jihadists are at war with the non-Muslim world, but the non Muslim world does not recognize it, even yet.
"What that means is they can now call and enforce curfews and make police raids without warrants."
This is being celebrated as a solution? Establishing a Police State may very well quell the ’rebellion,’ but it doesn’t scratch the surface of solving the problem. In fact, and in all reality, it will likely cause the social wound open here to fester ... leading to the very linkage with extremist fundamentalism mentioned within several of the articles quoted within this piece.
Abject, you can’t let it go on until they are ready to quit. It most certainly won’t get to the root of the whole mess (of which, I get the distinct impression we would disagree on). But what it does do, is restore order. That has to be the number one priority, at first. Then I am sure they will all go back to their conference tables and talk about what it will take, to prevent this from happening, ever again.
But if they are true themselves, when they do hit the symposium circuit, they won’t like what those needed measures will be.
France is and always has been against multi-culturalism. They think they have the greatest culture in the world. A culture devote to wine, food and love can certainly make that claim in my book, but it obviously doesn’t play well with the Islamics. They cannot assimilate militant Islam.
The opposite strategy is the Iron boot. Lets be firm with these guys! I’ll note that nobody knows how to use an Iron boot like the Russians. Fat lot of good it did them in Chechnya. Martyrs get all the chicks in the next life.
The demographics are in favor of the Islamics in France. If things continue as they are,it will be an Islamic republic sometime in the next century. The French have prided themselves on finding a 3rd way in the past. I for one am hoping they can find one this time. The typical liberal and conservative soloutions are doomed to fail,
Quote: "France, to survive, must take immediate and ruthless action to stop the riots and exert control..."
If ruthless action is the answer to civil unrest, then why bothering looking for the causes of such unrest? Look at Los Angeles and its police department...they surely got a hand after using rutheless force, but then had to maintain the state of police on a 24h basis.
It’s not desputable the fact that cultural integration is a big problem in France, just like in many other countries in Europe, but it’s quite different than ’racism’. The drive to defend one’s culture can’t really be understood by many AMericans because they don’t have such drive because they don’t have the same culture.
However this is the price to pay for colonialistic imperialism practised in the 1700 and 1800...so it’s just their fault.
Anyway it’s not enough to have ’equal-opportunity programs’ or ’affirmative action’ laws to consider a culture not racist: this country should serve as an example.
To Cindy: "...They think they have the greatest culture in the world. A culture devote to wine, food and love can certainly make that claim in my book..."
Very very reductive statement. The French culture is more than ’wine, food, and love’. It gave to the world many illustrious philosophers and statisticians, not to mention the so much loved Revolution.....that later propelled American settlers to think of themselves as an independent entity from the British crown...so I would speak of France in slightly different ways. I’m not even going into the philosophy and scientific field.
Any strong culture will have issues with integration of other people [and their culture], and that’s what will happen in Italy, Germany, and Spain very soon....not just France. The ’foreigners’ who end up in these European countries are very different from those that end up in the United States: for once it’s physically easier to emigrate to Europe than to America. Secondly these people tend to be less educated and therefore less productive than those that make it to the US.
These people will naturally tend to aggregate together because of limited resources and draw from their culture to survive in an hostile and different environment. Naturally these people will ask for their cultures to be preserved, but here is when problems occurr because cultures do step on each others when it comes to certain issues.
I don’t think there’s a third way out of it other than just admitting that cultural integration isn’t possible unless we all shed our traditions and start anew...forgetting out ancient religious born traditions and just follow the new ’God’ called capitalism.
I’m not stating the rioting should be allowed to continue until those involved get tired and go home. What I AM saying is that by removing the requirement for the letter of law to be followed, by establishing a Police State, the French Government is playing into the hands of the very Extremist Fundamentalists that are likely going to, if they haven’t already, use this situation to their advantage. Do I have a clear solution to the problem to offer? No, I do not. I am only familar with the situation in France socially via the articles that have recently come out, and a bit of a research done concerning the population dynamics and social-construct of their society. This by no means makes me an expert. I agree that order must be established, but not at the cost of Liberty for the citizens.
As for your secondary statement, concerning the root cause of the whole mess, I think you would be surprised as what I’ve read of yours tends to make me believe we would concur.
In any case, I appreciate the discourse and look forward to adding your site to my daily reading list.
blockquotenot to mention the so much loved Revolution.....that later propelled American settlers to think of themselves as an independent entity from the British crown...Your time frame is off. US independence preceded the French Revolution by about a decade.
I was going to correct your error, but I see that Steverino already has. I am afraid you need to hit the history books again. While you are at it, read about te period that followed the French Revolution. Take special note of Mr. Robispierre and his philosophy.
Well, I didn’t say that one followed the other in terms of years. The seed of a revolution have origins in the intellectual movement that had started years before the political movement became a full fledged revolt.
It’s easy to use Robespierre as a scapegoat to sink the French revolution as a whole, but didn’t the Americans had a civil war to deal with after 30 years of their beloved declaration of independence? Isn’t that the case that big changes, everywhere, take time to settle down?
Does Robespierre and his love for chooping heads constitute all that remains in your minds about French culture? What was so horrible about Voltaire, Descartes, Pasteur, Carl Magne, De Gaulle, Mersenne, Monet, Renoir, etc, etc?
Not always one’s defense of his/her own cutural identity means racism. Studying social dinamics doesn’t really get you to understand the real and big cultural dilemma that European countries are going though. It’s even harder to come with a solution, but it seems very easy to label the problem as ’racism’ when it’s only a self defense mechanism in this case.
So citizens of France and all other formerly White, Christian European nations it appears that you have crossed your Rubicon.
Instead of teaching our children of different cultures in the history and social science books, you had to show them first hand how wonderful multiculturalism, integration and egalitarianism is.
The solution to your dilemma you brought upon yourselves and your children and their children, who will curse you in your graves, is to remove your non white "equals" from your once great societies.
If you do not...you get what you deserve.
"A nation that does not preserve its racial purity will perish"...Julius Streicher
The seed of a revolution have origins in the intellectual movement that had started years before the political movement became a full fledged revolt.
No ... the philosophical base of this country is found in Britian, not France.
That’s why we’re two radically different coutries when it comes to rights, equality and government. The words may sound the same, but the concepts differ quite alot.
What was so horrible about Voltaire, Descartes, ... etc, etc?
The fact that they underpin what is today France while the likes of Locke, Smith and Mills are among the foundation for America.
Not always one’s defense of his/her own cutural identity means racism.
I don’t think anyone argues it does ... however when that defense involves refusing to admit others into that culture because it is felt they are inferior, then you’re getting there.
the foundation of America could well be found in Locke, Smith, and Mills. Point well made. However is today’s America the same as that professed then? I think the only thing driving America today is capitalism.
...however when that defense involves refusing to admit others into that culture because it is felt they are inferior, then you’re getting there.
And you think that’s at the root of the current problem? I think the definition of inferior might be important here. As I said, a great number of the immigrants entering Europe in the past years and today come from extreme povertry. I don’t think the solution is neither easy nor obvious, but certainly the problem doesn’t belong to France alone.
What if the same proportions of immigrants entering today in Europe will get in the US? [Imagining the laws of acceptance were the same]
It’s easy to label France, or tomorrow Germany, as being racist...but it’s even easier to hide discriminatory laws behind a curtain of legality through the INS. I mean that it’s easier to just lock down foreigners so that you won’t have to deal with the problem. Let’s not forget also the economical problems faced by countries that still care about real welfare....it’s not that simple to figure out a way out.
Just to act as a counterweight to Gary Hansen’s vile race-purification notions: I’m half Portuguese and half Jewish, married to a first-generation Filipino. If we can get one of our kids to marry someone half-African and half-Native American, our grandkids will be Mr. Hansen’s worst nightmare. And it’s families like ours that are carrying on the American tradition and teaching our kids civic values. They learn about their ancestors’ cultures, but we’re clear to our kids that they are Americans, and so are their fellow Americans no matter where their ancestors used to live. I’ve done enough genealogy to know that there’s no such thing as a "pure race" anyway.
Sweet dreams, Mr. Hansen! Sleep well knowing that racial mutts are the future leaders of America.
America the same as that professed then? I think the only thing driving America today is capitalism.
If that’s so, then I’d say you have a pretty shallow appreciation of what America is.
And you think that’s at the root of the current problem?
Did you read my post? When you have 3rd generation families who are yet to be assimilated and have been made to feel they aren’t wanted or appreciated, then yes, I think it has a lot to do with the problem.
I think the definition of inferior might be important here.
OK. Racially thus culturally.
As I said, a great number of the immigrants entering Europe in the past years and today come from extreme povertry.
Well then tell me about the unassimilated 3rd generation families who showed up not long after WWII? What happened with them?
What if the same proportions of immigrants entering today in Europe will get in the US? [Imagining the laws of acceptance were the same]
Well first, it is estimated we have 12 to 18 million illegal aliens in our midst. The difference is that within two generations immigrants are assimilated into our society.
Here’s a test. Name a single cabinet minsiter, of any era, of north or west African ancestry serving (or having served) in the French government? New anchors? Journalists? Justices? etc. Who’s France’s Condi Rice or Colin Powell. Is there an Alberto Gonzoles or a Barak Obama?
It’s easy to label France, or tomorrow Germany, as being racist...but it’s even easier to hide discriminatory laws behind a curtain of legality through the INS.
As we like to say, "the proof is in the pudding". Answer those questions and get back with me.
I mean that it’s easier to just lock down foreigners so that you won’t have to deal with the problem.
Is it? Isn’t that what the French ghettoes essentially were? Lockdowns?
Let’s not forget also the economical problems faced by countries that still care about real welfare....it’s not that simple to figure out a way out.
Let’s not forget that these people have been the receipients of the best the French welfare system has to offer ... and they’re firing up 300 cities.
Heh ... despite my 57 years people like that still amaze me. It’s sorta like when we get visited by socialists who still think socialism is a viable concept and philosophy, or communism has just not been done right yet.
I just wonder where they left their brains when they wandered out of the house that fateful day and forgot to return.
it has taken a few generations, as expected, but that cultural integration is taking shape and form in America.
Nevertheless I fear that American culture isn’t really a culture. It’s racial integration because cultures aren’t really preserved, but one might prefer the racial integration over the racial problem.
Ok McQ, you’re getting heated up but probably there’s no need.
As a side node what happened to the Native American indians? That would have been interesting to see if instead of having killed the majority of them they had been left in their place with their culture intact or not.
Maybe today it would be a different problem than just granting them some land here and there across a vast continent.
You’re absolutely right, I don’t think there are as many Colin Powell in foreign cabinets [not just in France, but in Italy, Spain, or Germany], but it didn’t take three generations of African or caribeean slaves to become Colin Powell. If in 1950 certain states of the Union still didn’t consider black Americans has bearing equal rights, then I think there’s still time for something to change.
The 18 million illegal immigrants in America aren’t integrated in society. They don’t drive Audi’s A8 or go around buying Plasma TVs, nor do they attend Computer Science classes in California Universities. The illegal immigrants that sworm around Texas and California are integrated just on the surface. If they happen to walk in a hospital or become injured while working illegally, how are they going to pay for the bills? Are they integrated? Can they vote? No, so what does being integrated in society mean? THat people won’t spit on their faces when they get on a bus? For those that remain illegal the problems are the same.
The many descendant of foreign nationals that exist in American government are a proof that it’s possible for foreigners to reach certain offices...just look at Schwarzi in Kalifornia. But I don’t think that those officials came running through the desert or swimming through the ocean, in other words they weren’t illegal immigrants.
But many of those immigrants entering Europe aren’t at all Immigrant, but have legal documents and are given time to find a position in society. At leas they are given a chance. If today an immigrant arrives at the border he’s given 90 days to VISIT the US but not to integrate in society. Those are different rules, and that is what I call a border lockdown.
If you want to have a discussion on the COSTS of welfare then just try for a moment to brake your leg, visit an ER anywhere in the country, get fixed up by a surgeon and go through therapy all without insurance. YOu will ammass bills totalling $13000-$15000.....well in certain countries that bill won’t be on your shoulders...that makes it harder for politicians to steer economies around in a year or two...that has to be taken into account if one wants to talk about problems from countries that have more attention toward the social needs than that shown by America.
Have you lived outside the US for 5-6 years? Have you seen that people will complain everywhere but the solutions to real problems are harder to be found in places where people still expect some basic rights to be provided to them?
I believe that America was able to alleviate the racial tension when it decided to abolish any sort of cultural identity in favor of full economic expansion at the expense of social interest. The rich people are very rich, but the poor are really poor. That is exactly what is happening in Europe right now....because if in today’s markets you want to live you have to play by the rules dictated by the big dog. That means putting aside culture and religion and just focus on work. That will surely lessens the problems on one side [racism and segregation] but will increase the divide between those of have a life with dignity and those who don’t.
Ok McQ, you’re getting heated up but probably there’s no need.
Heh ... trust me, you’ll know when I get all "heated up". Hell I’m not even warm on this one.
As a side node what happened to the Native American indians?
We married them. My brother-in-law is Cherokee. My niece, his daughter, has a movie opening in which she co-stars with Wes Studi (her cousin and a Native American), Tim Daly (a white actor) and James McDaniel ( a black actor). It’ll be on SHOWTIME on the 21st of November. You might want to watch it ... it’s called "Edge of America".
Ain’t America great?
That would have been interesting to see if instead of having killed the majority of them they had been left in their place with their culture intact or not.
Actually the majority of them died from disease, but you’d know that if you were a little more informed about our history.
So should I ask you about the Jews of France and what happened to them in WWII? The one’s the French happily handed over to the Nazis? I think it would be just as equally interesting if they had been left in place with their culture as well.
And the majority of them didn’t die from disease, did they?
If in 1950 certain states of the Union still didn’t consider black Americans has bearing equal rights, then I think there’s still time for something to change.
You must have missed it ... that happened. Yes, change. Which is why we have Condi Rice and Colin Powell and France has .... ???
So I guess things haven’t changed there, have they?
The 18 million illegal immigrants in America aren’t integrated in society.
No, of course not ... they’re illegals, for heaven sake. Heh ... they just got here. Give ’em a chance will you?
The illegal immigrants that sworm around Texas and California are integrated just on the surface. If they happen to walk in a hospital or become injured while working illegally, how are they going to pay for the bills?
They don’t have too. By law the hospital has to treat them, no questions asked and can’t deny treatment because of a lack of means to pay. That’s why hospitals in those areas are going broke.
But you’re fighting a strawman here. We’re talking about France’s multigeneration legal unassimmilated immigrants. My guess is illegals in France aren’t much better off either.
Can they vote?
Well of course not, can illegals vote in France?
But many of those immigrants entering Europe aren’t at all Immigrant, but have legal documents and are given time to find a position in society. At leas they are given a chance.
Good grief ... why in the world do you suppose these people are coming here illegally?
Because this is the best thing going. They get a chance here to do work that pays well and supports their families back home.
We don’t warehouse them in ghettoes with all their wonderful legal documents as France and Europe does and tell them that someday they’ll find work.
What are the unemployment rates among Europe’s immigrant muslim population? Heh ... Well rest assured, it’s almost zero among the illegal population here. They come here to work ... and the find it. Amazing what a relatively free market can provide isn’t it?
If you want to have a discussion on the COSTS of welfare then just try for a moment to brake your leg, visit an ER anywhere in the country, get fixed up by a surgeon and go through therapy all without insurance. YOu will ammass bills totalling $13000-$15000.....well in certain countries that bill won’t be on your shoulders...that makes it harder for politicians to steer economies around in a year or two...that has to be taken into account if one wants to talk about problems from countries that have more attention toward the social needs than that shown by America.
See above. Also understand the culture here is different than there. We expect to pay our own way instead of requiring others pay it for us.
That’s one of the differences I was alluding too when I said we’re of different philosophies.
Have you lived outside the US for 5-6 years?
More like 15.
Have you seen that people will complain everywhere but the solutions to real problems are harder to be found in places where people still expect some basic rights to be provided to them?
Of course, which is why Asia flourishes and Europe flounders. You’d think you guys would figure it out by now.
I believe that America was able to alleviate the racial tension when it decided to abolish any sort of cultural identity in favor of full economic expansion at the expense of social interest.
Actually America was able to do so when it quit giving equality lip-service and finally decided to live up to the full implication of the word. We still have a way to go, but we’re a lot further down the road than Europe.
And that’s precisely what France and Europe need to do ... no more lip-service. If you’re going to claim to believe in equality then make it so.
The [American] rich people are very rich, but the poor are really poor.
Yeah, they’re so poor that their average intake of protein each week is more than that of the average middle-class European.
Look, I know you have this picture in your head of what America is, but it might behoove you to take some time from your inaccurate characterization of the country and actually study up a bit.
Our poor are only relatively poor when compared to the real poor in the rest of the world. And that 15 years living in both Europe and Asia have proven that to me many times.
You’re well informed and very able at taking a sentence and chopping it up, but sentences in paragraphs are part of a concept and you can’t reply to them by parts.
Sure the majority of indians might have died by disease but the majority isn’t the entirety.
Remain convinced that your free market alone make America a better place, but at least have the moral dignity to apologize for the actions of those brave Americans soldiers [freedom fighters you guys call them] who kill people on foreign grounds and can’t even be judged by those foreigners.
Being part of international organizations means nothing to you because you don’t accept foreigners interfering in your decisions....after all you owe exclusive rights on the planet, right? International tribunals are good only to judge other foreigners never Americans, right? Your military ’doctrine’ is what keeps your a$$ safe in America, not the fact that your give people opportunities. And a country that prides itself on freedom but do so at the expense of other people’s freedom isn’t exempt from criticism.
We can keep talking well into the next days,weeks,months, but I sense that fundamentally your views, very coherent, differ from mine in one key aspect: I don’t think money should be the driving force of a society, you do.
Let’s hope that further days won’t see a worsening of the Paris situation or a rapid spreading to other cities, while in the meantime something serious is done to address the root of the problem soon....hopefully something not in the style of extreme measures.
Best of things to ya
BTW 15-years living abroad doing what? as a member of one of the armed forces of the US?
You’re well informed and very able at taking a sentence and chopping it up, but sentences in paragraphs are part of a concept and you can’t reply to them by parts.
The "chopped up" sentences are only reminders of the concept expressed. The replies addressed those concepts quite pointedly.
Sure the majority of indians might have died by disease but the majority isn’t the entirety.
When you address my questions about Europe’s Jews, I’ll be glad to discuss the Native Americans.
Remain convinced that your free market alone make America a better place, but at least have the moral dignity to apologize for the actions of those brave Americans soldiers [freedom fighters you guys call them] who kill people on foreign grounds and can’t even be judged by those foreigners.
Again, the proof is in the pudding. I don’t have to "remain convinced" that it makes America a better place, I’ve seen it ... watched it ... make America a better place.
And I see no reason to apologize for American soldiers or their actions when they’ve been responsible for freeing 40 million people from tyrants. Of course the same mentality that balkanized their own societies in Europe also want the right to judge the actions of our soldiers.
No thanks.
Being part of international organizations means nothing to you because you don’t accept foreigners interfering in your decisions
That’s correct, in terms of internal decisions such as self-defense and protecting our national interests. You see, that goes hand in hand with the concept of sovereignty. We elect our leaders to look after our best interests, and as you might imagine, those don’t necessarily coincide with what some foreign powers believe to be their best interests. What you’d prefer is foreign powers have the power of veto over our actions.
That’s not going to happen, any more than France would allow the US to veto it’s internal decisions. I love the double standard Europe applies to the US in terms of this concept.
If Europe wants to hand decisions of sovereignty over to an "international" orgainization, by all means, do so. But because you feel it to be a good idea doesn’t mean we agree.
International tribunals are good only to judge other foreigners never Americans, right?
Have you watched the circus in the Hague?
Look, as long as "international tribunals" or other bodies (UN Human Rights Commission anyone?) include the countries of dictators and tyrants, or countries with obvious agendas, there is no possibility of a fair hearing. And again, the government of the US doesn’t answer to the international community ... it answers to its citizens. There is no such thing as "international law" and to pretend it exits is simply nonsense.
The fact is most Europeans are globalists who are in love with the concept of one-world government. That’s not a concept a nation who fought to break its ties with a European tyranny a few hundred years ago much cares about.
Your military ’doctrine’ is what keeps your a$$ safe in America, not the fact that your give people opportunities.
Actually both do, but it is obviously more convenient to your preconceived concept of America to believe the former.
And a country that prides itself on freedom but do so at the expense of other people’s freedom isn’t exempt from criticism.
Who’s freedom do we take to keep ours? I mean this is a nice sounding line, but I’d love to see something more substantial than this if your going to assert such a thing.
As for criticism ... who ever claimed we were exempt from it?
We can keep talking well into the next days,weeks,months, but I sense that fundamentally your views, very coherent, differ from mine in one key aspect: I don’t think money should be the driving force of a society, you do.
I do? Where do you get that idea and where is that obvious as the "American way". Again I think you are projecting your preconceived ideas on me.
Let’s hope that further days won’t see a worsening of the Paris situation or a rapid spreading to other cities, while in the meantime something serious is done to address the root of the problem soon....hopefully something not in the style of extreme measures.
Let’s hope ... but that is pretty much up to the rioters now.
Best of things to ya
BTW 15-years living abroad doing what? as a member of one of the armed forces of the US?
Same to you ... yes, that and as a dependent of a military father. Also, later, business.
Thanks for the details remarks, but this isn’t nice: And I see no reason to apologize for American soldiers or their actions when they’ve been responsible for freeing 40 million people from tyrants
I don’t agree that just because America helped end WW2 [with all its positive implications] then it doesn’t have to apologize when its soldiers kill innocent people abroad [in NON-war zones]. ’Protection’ comes at a price, but human lives aren’t an expendable good, I think.
BTW not necessarily a mentality has to be better by Absolute terms...it wasn’t the point of the posts to assert one’s absolute superiority. The intention was to show that it’s not all good what shines and everyone, little or big, has it’s skeleton in the closet.
IMHO living abroad as a clerk or an immigrant might provide different challenges and less ’protection’ of those offered by military affiliation.
BTW[2] I like your writing and argumentation style.
I don’t agree that just because America helped end WW2 [with all its positive implications] then it doesn’t have to apologize when its soldiers kill innocent people abroad [in NON-war zones]. ’Protection’ comes at a price, but human lives aren’t an expendable good, I think.
Of course they apologize when soldiers accidently kill innocent people in non-war zones. Why wouldn’t they? I’m not sure what your point is. I’m talking about soldiers who’ve freed 40 million in WAR zones.
The intention was to show that it’s not all good what shines and everyone, little or big, has it’s skeleton in the closet.
And who intimated that wasn’t true?
IMHO living abroad as a clerk or an immigrant might provide different challenges and less ’protection’ of those offered by military affiliation.
I don’t have to stick my hand in the flame of a hot stove to know it will burn my hand badly. I’ve been able to observe that first hand (no pun intended) and determine the validity of my argument.
Same with the observations an intelligent person can make while living and traveling in other cultures. I don’t have to live the life to understand the validity of my arguments. My observations were sufficient.
BTW[2] I like your writing and argumentation style.
I appreciate yours as well. And I mostly appreciate the fact that we kept this as a civil disagreement in which we both did our best to answer the others queries and points.
Je suis française et vous ecris de France, car j’aime tout autant votre langue que l’histoire de votre pays . j’arrive à vous lire mais il serait difficile pour moi d’exprimer de maniere nuancée mes opinions sur vos opinions et sur la situation en France. Nous ne pouvons,c’est un fait, comparer votre immigration et la notre. Votre nation est pour l’essentiel la nation des migrants ( historiquement depuis le Maylower ) Ce qui fait votre particularité et votre charme ,c’est cette faculté que vous avez eue par le passé de rassembler diverses migrants et d’en faire le peuple americain. Ceci ne s’est pas fait seulement toujours sans lutte ni sans revendications . Mais pour le moins je comprends la vision que vous avez de l’intégration américaine et de ce que serait içi en France la non-intégration .
Je pense qu’il faut prendre en compte les facteurs suivants : La Fance est un petit territoire . Son histoire avec l’Algérie est ( un amour-haine )depuis l’indépendance de celle-ci. Ce qui se passe ne peut-être dissocié des évènements liés à la montée de l’intégrisme .
