While normally I’d agree that Andrea Mitchell probably wouldn’t mis-speak (certainly not to such an extent), the whole business in the Plame-game business, where the same Andrea Mitchell apparently suggested that it was "open knowledge" what Valerie Plame’s job was, only to subsequently claim that she had, in fact, misspoken and only meant to say that it became open knowledge suggests that perhaps she misspeaks (or backpedals) more often than we realize?
(Tom Maguire at justoneminute.typepad.com has several entries on this.)
It also remains to be seen whether it is the reporter or the other end of the line that was being eavesdropped upon, doesn’t it?
Frex, if Amanpour is looking for an inside story on al-Qaeda (iirc, CNN did that a year or so ago), and if she had actual contacts w/ the organization, and if those contacts were already being monitored, is it eavesdropping on Amanpour?
If a wiretap of John Gotti’s phones picks up Gotti talking to Steve Kroft in prepping a "Sixty Minutes" piece on the "Teflon Don," is it Kroft who’s being eavesdropped upon? |
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Written By:
Lurking Observer
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While normally I’d agree that Andrea Mitchell probably wouldn’t mis-speak (certainly not to such an extent), the whole business in the Plame-game business, where the same Andrea Mitchell apparently suggested that it was "open knowledge" what Valerie Plame’s job was, only to subsequently claim that she had, in fact, misspoken and only meant to say that it became open knowledge suggests that perhaps she misspeaks (or backpedals) more often than we realize?
I’m saying that mostly based on the NBC explanation which later said they removed the excerpt so they could "further continue our inquiry."
That may all be a smokescreen, I don’t know, but at this point (and as I said, given a fair reading) I’m going to assume they mean whether Amanpour was being monitored.
If a wiretap of John Gotti’s phones picks up Gotti talking to Steve Kroft in prepping a "Sixty Minutes" piece on the "Teflon Don," is it Kroft who’s being eavesdropped upon?
That’s exactly the point I’m making and one that is conveniently being left out of most discussions of this particular story.
Or to say it another way, the left better be careful of what they wish for on this one. |
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McQ
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Well maybe. I think it will depend, if true, to whom Christiane was talking. My guess is she at least talked with her husband. No big deal, right? Well, maybe.
Guess who her husband is? Jamie Rubin. Former Clinton official. No big deal there, right?
Except, guess what Jamie Rubin did after his work Bill? That’s right, you guessed it, he was foreign policy adviser to the Kerry campaign.
That’s right. Now why would the Bush administration care what a foreign policy adviser to the Kerry campaign had to say "in private" to his wife? Gosh, I dunno. Why did the burglars go into the Watergate?
I disagree with Gandelman on one point, though: this would hardly take things to a new level. Given the lap dogs to the Bush administration that the MSM has become, they probably would get on their collective kneepads and thank Bush.
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Written By:
mkultra
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My guess is she at least talked with her husband. No big deal, right? Well, maybe.
I’m glad to see your read Aravosis’s breathless ramblings on this.That’s right. Now why would the Bush administration care what a foreign policy adviser to the Kerry campaign had to say "in private" to his wife? Gosh, I dunno. Why did the burglars go into the Watergate? I’m sure she did speak to her husband. If her husband or she was overseas and they talked about things that an NSA key-word filter might have picked up on, it’s certainly possible that the conversation might have been recorded. That doesn’t mean it was used, passed on or kept.
Believe it or not, that’s NSA’s job and charter. It’s called SIGINT or "Signals Intelligence". It’s what we pay them to do.
OTOH, if she was talking to an AQ member from the US, that too could have been monitored as it should be.
And that’s the point.
Right now we don’t know, but it certainly doesn’t stop you from assuming, does it? |
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Written By:
McQ
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Well, MK who cares if we listened in on Mr Rubin’s talks with his wife. Are you suggesting that the Kerry Campaign had a Foreign Policy and that Bush worried about it?
Or are you suggesting that Rove et. al. used technology to IMPLANT ideas in the Kerry Camp? "Oh honey, have John say he voted FOR it before he voted AGAINST it." |
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Written By:
Joe
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Maybe if DOJ is investigating the leaks they got wiretaps to listen in on reporters who may be privvy to the identity of the NSA leakers. After all National Security trumps a reporter’s right to privacy of a source (Plame case set the precedent of that with Judy Miller). The MSM skewered with their own sticks. You got to love it.
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Written By:
retired military
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Right now we don’t know, but it certainly doesn’t stop you from assuming, does it? Didn’t assume a thing. I said: I dunno. Well, MK who cares if we listened in on Mr Rubin’s talks with his wife. Are you suggesting that the Kerry Campaign had a Foreign Policy and that Bush worried about it? Nixon had less to worry about from McGovern than Bush had to worry about from Kerry. Didn’t stop Watergate from happening.
Nice try though.
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Written By:
mkultra
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Ummmm... guys?
Where has she been reporting from rather a lot over the last few years? Iraq, right? Afghanistan?
It’s not beyond the realm of the possible that she was calling there from the US, or the reverse while in Iraq. Might this be simply that by doing so, she fell into such filters as have already been established about what and who was being monitored... regardless who whe was calling, there?
(I’m agreeing with LO, here and saying further that it didn’t need to be an ’inside story’ bit to qualify....)
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Written By:
Bithead
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Nixon had less to worry about from McGovern than Bush had to worry about from Kerry. Didn’t stop Watergate from happening.
Go extreme and generalize.
Like I said: projection.
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Written By:
McQ
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Might this be simply that by doing so, she fell into such filters as have already been established about what and who was being monitored... regardless who whe was calling, there?
Uh, yeah, I think that’s what I just said in my comment to MK.I’m sure she did speak to her husband. If her husband or she was overseas and they talked about things that an NSA key-word filter might have picked up on, it’s certainly possible that the conversation might have been recorded. That doesn’t mean it was used, passed on or kept.
Believe it or not, that’s NSA’s job and charter. It’s called SIGINT or "Signals Intelligence". It’s what we pay them to do. |
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Written By:
McQ
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Except, guess what Jamie Rubin did after his work Bill? That’s right, you guessed it, he was foreign policy adviser to the Kerry campaign. So ... what you’re saying is CNN was actively employing family members of Kerry’s campaign staff. Hmmm, that’s in addition to Carville and Begala, who were also doing double duty.
Was there anyone at CNN who WASN’T on Kerry’s payroll?!? |
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Written By:
SaveFarris
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please. |
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Written By:
stop spying on me
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Maybe we need to haul in Andrea Mitchell and see what HER sources are...the media free ride needs to end. |
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Written By:
shark
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I seem to remember Jamie Rubin saying once that he was moving to England to be with his wife, Christiane. Does anyone know whether she’s even a US citizen? If not, does that not change how the laws apply? Just wondering... far as I’m concerned W can listen to anything I have to say, and I never put anything in E-mail that I wouldn’t want the whole world to see, just on general principles. |
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Written By:
BornRed
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Uh, yeah, I think that’s what I just said in my comment to MK. (nod) Yeah.... I’ve been tending toward Filtering out MK... sorry...
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Written By:
Bithead
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What the C-I-C did/is doing is wrong. I hope he will be impeached.
OO-Rah!
Sgt D
New Orleans,LA |
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Written By:
Sgt D
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As long as we’re espaliering every branch we can think of on this conspiracy tree, having it put about that the NSA might be spying on her communications is likely to have a discouraging effect on Ms. Amanpour’s sources, both current and potential.
What’s the Latin for ’who suffers?’ |
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Written By:
Achillea
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What’s the Latin for ’who suffers?’ Ummmm.... Castro?
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Written By:
Bithead
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Amanpour is British, and is most likely not covered by laws, but that does not alter the fundamental errors here. Amanpour, as a journalist in Afghanistan and Iraq, doubtlessly spoke with multiple members of Al Qaeda during here time at war, but is everyone really so naive as to think that these members would suddenly tell Amanpour of a secret plot to blow up a landmark AND that she would be so traitorous as to keep the information private?
To defend Bush IF this story is true is foolish. There is no possible reason to suspect that any operational details would be divulged to her in the course of an interview. Thus there would be no information worth tapping. I doubt that this story is true in fact, because i don’t think the NSA is dumb enough to waste resources on spying on journalists, no matter if they are American or British. I sincerely hope they aren’t.
As to the larger issue of taps for information on Al Qaeda, I think Al Qaeda was smart enough to know that any conversations they have are likely tapped. Thats why they are using code words in the first place. I think the verification that this program exists surprises no one in the hills of Tora Bora or in Syria — they’ve known forever. What strategy, exactly, must they change now? Change the secret password?
The only effective way to fight this war is through intelligence on the ground. Infiltrate the various cells and bring them down from within. Culling through every email written in America simply overwhelms the information our limited soldiers have to sift through. This program is a massive waste of money that does far less to protect us from attack than, say, protecting our borders/ports. |
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Written By:
Tom in Texas
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Amanpour is British, and is most likely not covered by laws, but that does not alter the fundamental errors here. Amanpour, as a journalist in Afghanistan and Iraq, doubtlessly spoke with multiple members of Al Qaeda during here time at war, but is everyone really so naive as to think that these members would suddenly tell Amanpour of a secret plot to blow up a landmark AND that she would be so traitorous as to keep the information private?
Irrelevant to the extreme. If she’s talking to AQ then there is nothing wrong with monitoring the phone calls of a known or suspected terrors suspect.
I think Al Qaeda was smart enough to know that any conversations they have are likely tapped.
Well they certainly haven’t been in the past and it has cost them some high ranking members. |
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Written By:
McQ
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Irrelevant to the extreme. If she’s talking to AQ then there is nothing wrong with monitoring the phone calls of a known or suspected terrors suspect.
I must beg to differ. The first amendment (sorry to bring up that hoary old chestnut) gives the press explicit protection from government intrusion. If she was told of a plot against the US she is legally bound to report it, a la a psychiatrist or priest, but the government cannot inhibit the press’ ability to report independently of government intrusion.
Well they certainly haven’t been in the past and it has cost them some high ranking members.
If the number of nefarious plots by AQ foiled by Bush since 9/11 is as high as he says it is there is no way they couldn’t determine something was up. We’ve heard audiotape on CNN of plots against Vegas, seen numerous fluctuations in the terror alert level (curiously none since the election and original discovery by the NYT of the NSA story though), and heard of plots like the Brooklyn Bridge foiled. Did AQ think we just got lucky on these? I tink we underestimate the level of intelligence AQ has at our peril. Of COURSE they’re aware their conversations are monitored. How could they not be by now. |
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Written By:
Tom in Texas
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I must beg to differ. The first amendment (sorry to bring up that hoary old chestnut) gives the press explicit protection from government intrusion.
Tell that to Judith Miller ... or said another way, uh, no, it doesn’t.
If the number of nefarious plots by AQ foiled by Bush since 9/11 is as high as he says it is there is no way they couldn’t determine something was up
You need to do a little research and find out why AQ has given up satellite telephones. |
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Written By:
McQ
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Irrelevant to the extreme. If she’s talking to AQ then there is nothing wrong with monitoring the phone calls of a known or suspected terrors suspect.
I must beg to differ. The first amendment (sorry to bring up that hoary old chestnut) gives the press explicit protection from government intrusion. If she was told of a plot against the US she is legally bound to report it, a la a psychiatrist or priest, but the government cannot inhibit the press’ ability to report independently of government intrusion.
Well they certainly haven’t been in the past and it has cost them some high ranking members.
If the number of nefarious plots by AQ foiled by Bush since 9/11 is as high as he says it is there is no way they couldn’t determine something was up. We’ve heard audiotape on CNN of plots against Vegas, seen numerous fluctuations in the terror alert level (curiously none since the election and original discovery by the NYT of the NSA story though), and heard of plots like the Brooklyn Bridge foiled. Did AQ think we just got lucky on these? I tink we underestimate the level of intelligence AQ has at our peril. Of COURSE they’re aware their conversations are monitored. How could they not be by now. |
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Written By:
Tom in Texas
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The Miller case illustrates my point perfectly. As she was aware of a criminal act (the outing of an undercover operative), she was bound to report it. As to your second point: if, in the last two weeks, AQ has suddenly seen the light and realized someone was listening, than the argument that the NSA whistleblower ruined the operation holds water. If they stopped using communications before that point, than it should be obvious they realized we had an intelligence agency before December of 2005. I am amazed how ignorant you seem to think AQ is. They are not stupid my friend. They are very very smart. The NSA story was news only to those who pay no attention to the real world. If you can honestly say that before two weeks ago you would never dream the government was monitoring phone calls with suspected terrorists, than you need to read more news. I suspect you already "knew" we were doing so — whether it was confirmed or not, it was self evident. |
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Written By:
Tom in Texas
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The Miller case illustrates my point perfectly. As she was aware of a criminal act (the outing of an undercover operative), she was bound to report it. As to your second point: if, in the last two weeks, AQ has suddenly seen the light and realized someone was listening, than the argument that the NSA whistleblower ruined the operation holds water. If they stopped using communications before that point, than it should be obvious they realized we had an intelligence agency before December of 2005. I am amazed how ignorant you seem to think AQ is. They are not stupid my friend. They are very very smart. The NSA story was news only to those who pay no attention to the real world. If you can honestly say that before two weeks ago you would never dream the government was monitoring phone calls with suspected terrorists, than you need to read more news. I suspect you already "knew" we were doing so — whether it was confirmed or not, it was self evident. |
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Written By:
Tom in Texas
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I apologize for the double posts. I only sent it once and have no idea why it keeps repeating everything I say. |
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Written By:
Tom in Texas
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The Miller case illustrates my point perfectly. As she was aware of a criminal act (the outing of an undercover operative), she was bound to report it.
And you feel that corresponding with a known enemy of the United States is somehow a lesser offense? |
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Written By:
McQ
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And you feel that corresponding with a known enemy of the United States is somehow a lesser offense?
Well, yes. As a matter of fact i don’t think its an offense for a journalist to interview someone at all. Simply corresponding with anyone is not an offense. Hate to break it to ya. Correspondence with Saddam, for instance, does not mean you are a Saddam sympathizer. The job of the press is to report both sides of an issue — no matter how farfetched the other side is. Whether you agree with a bunch of islamofascists justifications for why they do what they do or not, its vital that you knwo why they think they are right — or you would prefer a biased press i suppose?
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Written By:
Tom in Texas
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Well, yes. As a matter of fact i don’t think its an offense for a journalist to interview someone at all.
Well there you go. And I see nothing wrong with the NSA listening in to the conversations of known enemies either (since that’s their job), even if there’s a journalist on the other end. |
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Written By:
McQ
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Well, yes. As a matter of fact i don’t think its an offense for a journalist to interview someone at all.
Well there you go. And I see nothing wrong with the NSA listening in to the conversations of known enemies either (since that’s their job), even if there’s a journalist on the other end. The Bill of Rights implicitly gives journalists (and all of us) the right to free speech, etc that makes conversing with anybody at all perfectly legal. The Bill of Rights also prohibits the government from "listening in" without a warrant. |
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Written By:
Jon Henke
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The Bill of Rights also prohibits the government from "listening in" without a warrant.
Federal Law also prohibits "trading with the enemy" as well, doesn’t it?
That also doesn’t change the fact that the NSA is chartered with doing precisely that (i.e. gathering SIGINT on foreign enemies)for decades without a warrant.
There’s a lot more to it than a cut-and-dried "the Bill of Rights" says ...". What has to be determined is how the intercepts were done and whether they fall within the pervue of the NSA’s normal and previously accepted method of gathering foreign SIGINT. I don’t think that’s at all clear at this point. |
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Written By:
McQ
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Isn’t the bigger issue that NBC edited the transcript?
A question was asked, and answered. No problem there.
NBC decides to ’disappear’ the question and the denial, because they hadn’t investigated the allegation.
So, Mitchell wasn’t investigating the allegation, and all live interviews are just canned, rehearsed speeches where the interviewee will never be asked a question he hasn’t prepared for?
This is going to be referred to as ’Journalism’ in a free society?
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Written By:
Mfawg
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Isn’t the bigger issue that NBC edited the transcript?
I’m not sure it’s a bigger issue, but I did ask when a transcript quits being a transcript. To me it’s when it doesn’t accurately reflect what was actually said. I mean, isn’t "edited transcript" a bit of an oxymoron? |
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Written By:
McQ
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Yes, you did point that out.
And yes "Edited Transcript’ is an oxymoron.
If you’re going to release transcripts, release them. If you’re not, don’t.
Changing them after you release them unless they do not accurate reflect what was said isn’t any kind of ’Journalism’, it’s editing that belongs over in the entertainment division.
I’m not implying that there is some sort of ’Conspiracy To Bury The Story By The Evil Corporate Media’, although my own left leaning politics yearn to categorize it as such.
It’s more just a reflection of the sorry state of journalism as a whole, and television journalism in particular.
That’s why it’s the bigger issue.
Whether Amanpour was ’spied upon’ in violation of any statute or has had her Constitutional rights to unreasonable search and siezure is completely separate from that part of the story. |
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Written By:
Mfawg
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It’s more just a reflection of the sorry state of journalism as a whole, and television journalism in particular.
That’s why it’s the bigger issue.
OK, that’s a fair point. I wasn’t really looking at it in that large a frame since I’ve already concluded that about the media.
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Written By:
McQ
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While I am certainly no fan of telivised journalism, I honestly feel in this case NBC did as best as they could. The most likely reasons they have yet to expose this story seem to be:
1) The story can only be verified through one source, whether Amanpour herself or another whistleblower. As NBC cannot get independent confirmation, they cannot run the story. Compare that with the pathetic instajournalism on display in New Orleans or Tallmansville, where base rumor was reported as fact.
2) The surveillance taken was, in fact legal. If Amanpour is a British citizen with no American citrizenship (I know she’s London raised, but did she get US citizenship when she married Rubin? I have no idea), than I believe she is not entitled to first amendment protection in London when talking to an AQ operative in Iraq. Personally I don’t buy this as a reason. It may be true, but it’s no excuse.
I think the absolute worst way a government can "protect" its citizens is through a hamhanded Big Brother approach. It never works. Every government that tries it finds its targets simply adopting new methods to avoid it and its citizens flagrantly abusing the laws silencing them in defiance for their curtailed rights to speech.
I also think that journalism has a responsibility to acknowledge all sides of an issue. In the past decade our media has returned to the days of the early 20th century, when there was no objective reporting. Now our media caters to one side of a debate. The NYT abandons Middle America for the audience it really wants, Manhattan. Fox News simply ignores any reasonable debaters in favor of hysterical screechers. It terrifies me to think of the day that a media source on my airwaves is afraid to report something for fear their lines are tapped. |
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Written By:
Tom in Texas
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While I am certainly no fan of telivised journalism, I honestly feel in this case NBC did as best as they could. The most likely reasons they have yet to expose this story seem to be:
1) The story can only be verified through one source, whether Amanpour herself or another whistleblower. As NBC cannot get independent confirmation, they cannot run the story. Compare that with the pathetic instajournalism on display in New Orleans or Tallmansville, where base rumor was reported as fact.
2) The surveillance taken was, in fact legal. If Amanpour is a British citizen with no American citrizenship (I know she’s London raised, but did she get US citizenship when she married Rubin? I have no idea), than I believe she is not entitled to first amendment protection in London when talking to an AQ operative in Iraq. Personally I don’t buy this as a reason. It may be true, but it’s no excuse.
I think the absolute worst way a government can "protect" its citizens is through a hamhanded Big Brother approach. It never works. Every government that tries it finds its targets simply adopting new methods to avoid it and its citizens flagrantly abusing the laws silencing them in defiance for their curtailed rights to speech.
I also think that journalism has a responsibility to acknowledge all sides of an issue. In the past decade our media has returned to the days of the early 20th century, when there was no objective reporting. Now our media caters to one side of a debate. The NYT abandons Middle America for the audience it really wants, Manhattan. Fox News simply ignores any reasonable debaters in favor of hysterical screechers. It terrifies me to think of the day that a media source on my airwaves is afraid to report something for fear their lines are tapped. |
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Written By:
Tom in Texas
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Editing the transcript because the News Departments at NBC and The Cartoon News Network are still investigating the story is absolutely no excuse.
The transcript is supposed to be a record of what was actually said, not a summary of what NBC ’wished’ Mitchell had said.
If the transcript itself was in error, i.e. a word was misspelled, or a quote was attributed to the wrong person in a round table type format, that’s one thing.
To disappear the question because Mitchell leaked a story they were working in secret isn’t ’editing’, it’s ’altering’.
It’s a shoddy practice, plain and simple.
It’s not about the ’Bias’ either, because as you so correctly point out ’Bias’ in the Media has been around since the beginning of the Republic, and while the medium has changed, the media itself really hasn’t .
’Bias’ claims drive me crazy anyway.
How can something you purchase and choose to consume be ’Biased’? It’s essentially the same argument that gun control advocates use, and just as wrong headed.
Gee whiz, America works.
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Written By:
Mfawg
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Federal Law also prohibits "trading with the enemy" as well, doesn’t it? No, Federal Law gives the President power during "wartime" — and it’s not entirely clear that we’re in statutorily defined "wartime" — the power to prohibit certain economic acts with a foreign country "or national thereof". I’m not aware of any Executive Directive prohibiting such. Are you?That also doesn’t change the fact that the NSA is chartered with doing precisely that (i.e. gathering SIGINT on foreign enemies)for decades without a warrant. True. However, I didn’t see any limitation in your comments to foreign journalists operating in foreign countries. The NSA does not have jurisdiction to conduct surveillance on US journalists. If Christiane Amanpour was overseas at the time of the (alleged) surveillance, then it’d be within the NSA’s jurisdiction. But your grant of NSA authority seemed to cover any surveillance, provided an "enemy" was on the other side. |
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Written By:
Jon Henke
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I’d think we need a little more information as to when and where Amanpour was ’surveilled’ before a determination could be made as to whether the surveillance was legal or not.
Of course, I’m also one of those darn liberals who think that a warrant would be needed if it happened on US soil. The Gubment has up to 15 days after the surveillance starts to get a warrant. Even then, the warrant is issued in ’Double Super Secret Court’, which is about as UNAMERICAN a concept as I can think of.
Call me a lib, but 2 weeks to gather evidence without a warrant is plenty.
It appears that the Administration wasn’t even willing to meet that rather minimal standard.
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Written By:
Mfawg
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