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Immigration (My Turn)
Posted by: Dale Franks on Tuesday, March 28, 2006

I guess it's my turn to comment on the whole illegal immigration deal. Protests against a crackdown on illegal immigration are continuing, and it's becoming what I think will be a major issue in the coming years. One of the reasons is that many Americans will have an sharp reaction to waking up like I did this morning, and seeing this on the front page of the local newspaper:

Indeed, there've been a plethora of such images over the last few days, like this:

Interesting point of view. The argument, apparently, is "We killed the Indians and took their land before you Anglos did, so it's ours in perpetuity!"

Right.

By that reasoning, Spain should be returned to the Caliph, since Muslims won the country over fair and square before the reconquista. In fact, why even consider the Muslim conquest. Spain was a Roman province for nearly 1,000 years before that, so perhaps Spain should be returned to Italian suzerainty, along with France, Southern Gerrmany, the Balkans, the Mideast, and all of Northern Africa.

Or alternatively, we can ignore the shifting allegiances of history, and deal with the world as it is today, rather than how we wish it was in 1845, 768, or 450 AD.

"Viva Mexico!" eh? Yet, I can't help but notice you aren't there. Odd, that. Clearly, this is a case of absence making the heart grow fonder.

And only absence could do so in the case of Mexico. Because the experience of actually being in Mexico, outside of the Potemkin Villages of Cozumel, Mazatlan, etc., is one that is mainly characterized by crushing poverty, and the attendant dirt and smell of urine that accompanies it. Frankly, whatever good exists in Mexico is best worshipped from afar, well away from the Third World filth and corruption that makes daily life in Mexico such a horrific struggle that hundreds of thousands of Mexicans make the long trek north to the US every year.

If you want a picture that nicely encapsulates at least part of the problem, this is it. Escondido, the city where I live, kindly provided school buses to transport people to the protest. My property tax dollars were hard at work today, providing the funding that allowed people to protest in support of those who break our immigration laws. I can hardly wait till April 1st to send off that $1600 semi-annual check to the county tax assessor.

First, let's dispense with an essential piece of dishonesty that characterizes the issue, and is glaringly evident in Jon's post below. Notice that the article Jon cites refers to the "Health Care Expenditures of Immigrants in the United States". But the problem isn't "immigrants". There are many "immigrants". "Immigrants" come from all over. Kenya, Thailand, Australia, France, Venezuela...you get the picture.

But the problem isn't "immigrants". Legal immigration and illegal immigration are two different things.

And illegal immigration has costs that legal immigration does not. Here in California the cost of providing Health Care, Education...and Incarceration to illegal immigrants is $10.5 billion. This cost is magnified by the fact that illegal immigrants do not undergo any medical screening prior to entering the US, which means that border states have much higher rates of diseases like tuberculosis and...wait for it...leprosy. Moreover, illegal immigrants utilize emergency rooms for primary care at a rate of 29%, which is nearly three times the rate of the population in general (11%). Of course, Illegal immigrants have to utilize the emergency room, since illegal immigrants make up 15% of the total number of uninsured people in the country.

Crime is also another problem that is highly associated with illegal immigration. Here in California, the 18th Street Gang in Los Angeles, with an estimated 20,000 members, has a membership that is estimated to be 60% illegal. This may also account for the fact that 95% of homicide warrants in Los Angeles county have illegal immigrants as their subjects.

None of the above is true for legal immigrants. Again, legal and illegal immigration are two entirely different things.

Here's another bit of dishonesty, directly from President Bush:
No one should pretend that immigrants are threats to American identity...
Really? That's a nice, fatuous, point of view. In reality, however, whether "immigration" is a threat to American identity is entirely dependent on how immigration is handled. For instance, how do you think Europe is doing in maintaining the distinctive identities of France, the Netherlands, etc, in the face of unrestricted Muslim immigration? In 40 years or so, France will be primarily an Islamic nation, and one armed with intercontinental ballistic nuclear missiles. How does that make you feel? Ya' think the Euros are doing a bang-up job of assimilating Muslim immigrants into the whole Western Values/religious tolerance deal, do you?

Immigration is not a threat to American identity only insofar as we require immigrants to assimilate into American culture. That is, by the way, something we used to do—and which legal immigrants, for the most part, still do willingly. But it's not something we do much of anymore. Now, we act as if all cultures are equally valid, and so we would never demand that immigrants, legal or otherwise, adopt the values of tolerance, liberty, and political plurality that we considered distinctively "American" in the past.

But that is the root of the problem. Americanism isn't a racial ideal. It is a cultural and national ideal. Americanism is the subscription to a specific set of beliefs. It is an ideological construct, without which the nomenclature of "American" becomes nothing more than a geographical identity. In such a case, it ceases to become a shorthand appellation for subscription to a prescribed set of political beliefs in liberty and popular sovereignty. The importance of that change—and the fundamental damage done to the ideal of Americanism—cannot be overestimated.

So, the open borders people can roll out the economic arguments for open borders all they want. But the problem isn't fundamentally economic. It is a problem of culture and ideology. But, even the economic arguments miss an important point. As the ever clear-minded Thomas Sowell writes:
How often have we heard that illegal immigrants "take jobs that Americans will not do"? What is missing in this argument is what is crucial in any economic argument: price.

Americans will not take many jobs at their current pay levels — and those pay levels will not rise so long as poverty-stricken immigrants are willing to take those jobs.

If Mexican journalists were flooding into the United States and taking jobs as reporters and editors at half the pay being earned by American reporters and editors, maybe people in the media would understand why the argument about "taking jobs that Americans don't want" is such nonsense.

Another variation on the same theme is that we "need" the millions of illegal aliens already in the United States. "Need" is another word that blithely ignores prices.

If jet planes were on sale for a thousand dollars each, I would probably "need" a couple of them — an extra one to fly when the first one needed repair or maintenance. But since these planes cost millions of dollars, I don't even "need" one.

There is no fixed amount of "need," independently of prices, whether with planes or workers.
From an economic point of view, illegal immigrants don't harm me. There aren't a lot of Mexicans crossing the border prepared to build .NET Windows and ASP.NET web applications. That's what I do, and, frankly, I make a lot of money doing it. I don't apologize for that. I've spent 20 years studying and working to gain a level of expertise that allows me to do something that most people can't do. So, if we continue to let in millions of illegal immigrants, it won't affect me econonomically.

But, for many native-born African-Americans and Hispanics, illegal immigration prices them out of the labor market. Because illegal immigrants are willing to do any number of labor-intensive jobs at a price far below what native Americans of any race are willing to do, the labor price floor for those jobs are much lower than they would otherwise be. That means that native-born Hispanics and African-Americans will continue to be shut out of jobs they need need to climb the economic ladder.

What illegal immigration allows is the creation of a new, permanent, underclass of helots. The illegal immigrant is a slave in practically every respect but name. He has no prospect for advancement. He has no ability to share in the affluence of Americvan society. But, even worse, he prevents the native born American of Hispanic or African -American descent from ascending from helotage, too. So, in the end, we still get our helots, but they are willing helots whose labor conditions are better than those that obtain in their native country.

Helotage is helotage, however, no matter how we obtain our helots. And, as long as illegals serve as our helots, they will be as ineligible for advancement as the Messenian Helots of Sparta were in the 5th century BC. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, support for the current system of illegal immigration is nothing more than support for a system of helotage where the laborers are permanently prevented from participating in the broader economic life of the country.

But we don't actually need helots in agriculture.

For instance, the argument is often made that illegal immigrants in the farm industry keep produce prices down for Americans. If so, they don't keep prices down much. The real markup in farm prices lies not between the farm and the wholesaler, but between the wholesaler and the grocery store. We could literally double the price of farm labor, and see a rise of a few cents per item at the cash register for consumer prices. For the most part, replacing illegal immigrant farm workers with legal workers—even high-priced American labor—would be indistinguishable at the cash register.

The bottom line is that illegal immigration has costs, both economically and culturally—that legal immigration does not have. Until we recognize that, deal with both types of immigration as distinct phenomenon, and require immigrants to assimilate appropriately, immigration will remain a divisive—and important—issue.
 
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Comments
Dale: I think you’re the first one (other than yours truly) that frames the debate as you have.

I don’t think we’d be having the debate we’re having were the the current crop of immigrants more interested in assimilating themselves into America and American culture. ’We’ really don’t care about how much more a hamburger would cost at McDonald’s or whether we have terrorists slipping across the Mexican border or whether some jobs would remain unfilled because Americans just aren’t interested in filling them. What ’we’ care about is not having to always be coming across people who pledge their allegiance elsewhere. ’We’ don’t want to have to "push ’1’ for English" to get customer service on the line. We don’t want to see protests with more Mexican flags than American flags. At the same time, ’we’ don’t mind people sneaking into America because they want to become American.

And those debating ’immigration’ - on both sides of this debate - refuse to acknowledge that the real debate is between those who want the newbies to blend in and those who think it is fine that they don’t.

And this unwillingness to call the debate what it is makes for some very strange arguments being made.... on both sides. For example, liberals arguing that illegals help keep prices low... at the same time, they rail against the likes of Wal-Mart for the low wages that help them keep prices low. Or conservatives claiming we need a fence along the Mexican border to keep out terrorists... but think nothing about building a wall to seal off the Canadian border.
 
Written By: steve sturm
URL: http://thoughtsonline.blogspot.com/
Best article so far to capture the real threat to illegal immigration.

That being said. I terrified how argument against what is amounting to a form of colonization is being linchpinned to the ’illegal’ vs. ’legal’ debate. Something can be made legal with the snap of a finger, without changing the situation or its negative effects.

Say hypothetically that a guest worker program is implimented. Mexicans enter the US under the guest worker program, but disappear off the guest worker system because the employer & employee can avoid taxes and pocket more money. Because this is a new situation, law makers and bureaucrats decide that the guest worker is just getting paided under the table which has to do with domestic labor laws. They also decide that since his entry was legal, his immigration status is still valid.

Then the whole arguement ’they entered illegally’ and ’broke our laws’ doing so evaporates. Basically we could end up with the exact same situation we have now with the same consequences, however, through legal & bureaucratic finagling their status is technically ’legal’.
 
Written By: John
URL: http://
Is it just me, or in the four posted pictures, does only the second one contain what may actually be illegal immigrants? The rest looks like a bunch of liberal young Americans (the children of immigrants, but Americans none-the-less) looking for a cause to make a fuss about.

 
Written By: Rosensteel
URL: http://
As much as I despise with all my being every single one of these lawbreakers showcasing their allegiance to a forfeign flag, they did us a huge favor.

One of the reasons is that many Americans will have an sharp reaction to waking up like I did this morning, and seeing this on the front page of the local newspaper

Dale, you got it 100% correct. This is a clarity moment in my opinion. These lawbreaking illegals dared to open their idiotic mouths up when they would’ve been much better served taking a lower profile. Because now the rest of America is getting p-oed

And woe to congress if they don’t get it. GOP, I’m looking at you....
 
Written By: shark
URL: http://
Is it just me, or in the four posted pictures, does only the second one contain what may actually be illegal immigrants?
Maybe, but only because I only chose to pick pieces from the North County Times of demonstrations today in Escondido, CA. Not because there weren’t plenty of other, equally inflamatory pictures to choose from.

 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
As insightful (or is it inciteful) as your commentary is, the question remains...

Why have all these people crawled out of the wood work to protest while the MinuteMen garner a few hundred here and there.

Even after correcting for the left’s organizing muscle, the fact remains that the "backlash" that has been predicted for ages hasn’t materialized.

The one time it worked (Prop 187) the counterforce HURT "conservative/libertarian" interests.

It is imperative that this issue is properly framed and fought, and I see the right (cons/libertarian) shooting themselves in the foot again.

I lack the time to lay it all out, so I’ll condense it for you.

Immigration x Assimilation = Cultural renewal & growth

Immigration x Multiculturalism = cultural suicide

The anger and vitriol that is directed toward the immigrant is misplaced. It should be directed at the welfare state, and the culturally toxic "multi-culti" culture that pervades our public institutions.

If you fight the immigrant more than you fight the Nurse Ratchett Multi-Culturalism in our own public schools, you are missing the point.

The guy crossing the border to mow your lawn will eventually end up more "American" than the White Suburban Publically Educated Drone who makes up the shock troops of the new new new left that our schools are creating.

Re read some of your Ayn Rand. This ain’t rocket science.
 
Written By: Bruno
URL: http://www.extremewisdom.com
I lack the time to lay it all out, so I’ll condense it for you.

Immigration x Assimilation = Cultural renewal & growth

Immigration x Multiculturalism = cultural suicide
Apparently, you missed the bit of my post where I wrote:
In reality, however, whether "immigration" is a threat to American identity is entirely dependent on how immigration is handled. For instance, how do you think Europe is doing in maintaining the distinctive identities of France, the Netherlands, etc, in the face of unrestricted Muslim immigration? In 40 years or so, France will be primarily an Islamic nation, and one armed with intercontinental ballistic nuclear missiles. How does that make you feel? Ya’ think the Euros are doing a bang-up job of assimilating Muslim immigrants into the whole Western Values/religious tolerance deal, do you?

Immigration is not a threat to American identity only insofar as we require immigrants to assimilate into American culture. That is, by the way, something we used to do—and which legal immigrants, for the most part, still do willingly. But it’s not something we do much of anymore. Now, we act as if all cultures are equally valid, and so we would never demand that immigrants, legal or otherwise, adopt the values of tolerance, liberty, and political plurality that we considered distinctively "American" in the past.

But that is the root of the problem. Americanism isn’t a racial ideal. It is a cultural and national ideal. Americanism is the subscription to a specific set of beliefs. It is an ideological construct, without which the nomenclature of "American" becomes nothing more than a geographical identity. In such a case, it ceases to become a shorthand appellation for subscription to a prescribed set of political beliefs in liberty and popular sovereignty. The importance of that change—and the fundamental damage done to the ideal of Americanism—cannot be overestimated.
I thought that passage adequately covered the Assimilation/Multicultiuralism question.
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
Let me suggest that you pay some mind to the date of the crime article sited. My guess is that those numbers are inflated given the article is about 9 years old, making it a point to be stressed even more then the attention you’ve given it. I think more attention needs to be put on the technology issue. When we couldn’t fit in our giant computers during the space race we made smaller, better and faster ones. When people said we couldn’t feed our vastly growing population, we specialized, adapted, and advanced to fit the need.


It’s good to see you’re reading Thomas Sowell.
 
Written By: Isaiah
URL: http://
So, the open borders people can roll out the economic arguments for open borders all they want. But the problem isn’t fundamentally economic. It is a problem of culture and ideology
Isn’t this really a false dichotomy? Aren’t the economic arguments one in the same with the cultural and ideological arguments?

As I have said before, generally speaking, the rich and well off benefit from illegal immigration, the middle class and poor do not. That’s not to say there is not a geographical component in all this.

The economic argument - as I have said - is that illegals and "guests" or "amnestees" - or whatever - flood the marketplace with cheap labor, and thus depress wages for certain groups in the manner you described, i.e., some play by the rules and some do not. Those who do not naturally have an economic advantage.

But aren’t the cultural and ideological arguments based on the same general premise? The premise of the economic argument is that those who do not play by the rules gain unfair advantage. Isn’t the general premise of the cultural and ideological issues the same? That you achieve and advance by being treated fairly, but also by playinig by the rules. If you enter illegally, and crmininally, don’t you necessarily violate that covenant?

Isn’t that the issue?

Oh, and by the way, where is the "small government"/libertarian outcry over the bill that just made its way out of the Senate Judiciary Committee? My god, can you imagine? A whole new beauracracy to monitor the employment progress of millions and millions persons currently working in the United States as they gradually become "legal."

Have you read this bill? It’s insane.
 
Written By: mkultra
URL: http://
The economic argument - as I have said - is that illegals and "guests" or "amnestees" - or whatever - flood the marketplace with cheap labor, and thus depress wages for certain groups in the manner you described, i.e., some play by the rules and some do not.
A footnote: The factual premise is that illegals, or guests, or amputees all enter here illegally, regardless of the ex post facto issues.
 
Written By: mkultra
URL: http://
First, let’s dispense with an essential piece of dishonesty that characterizes the issue, and is glaringly evident in Jon’s post below. Notice that the article Jon cites refers to the "Health Care Expenditures of Immigrants in the United States".
Lack of specificity, perhaps, but this is not dishonesty. The authors of the study did not purport to address only the illegal immigration issue and I specifically noted that a study of total immigrant population was a blurry stand-in for the specific issue in question.

I don’t dispute the cultural quandary that an influx of essentially nationalist Mexicans presents, nor do I dispute the possibility that illegal immigrants are a net tax money negative. (certainly the costs of illegal immigration are visible and concentrated, while the benefits they provide are more diffused)

Ultimately, though, I’m not terribly sanguine about the "solutions" that are bandied about. Even cracking down on the demand-side (employers), while it it might reduce the visible costs of illegals, seems likely to be a net economic negative. Is propping up the tax coffers really worth higher costs? Consumers don’t seem to think so right now.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
This from Michael Barone strikes me as accurate...
Capitalism “laughs at frontiers,” wrote the French historian Fernand Braudel. The dynamic American economy has attracted illegal immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries to work in construction, hotels and restaurants, meatpacking, gardening and landscaping. We talk as if our immigration laws can structure our labor markets, but in practice, Congress’ task now is to get our immigration laws working in tandem with labor markets. We are not going to expel a population the size of the state of Ohio. But we shouldn’t simply acquiesce to violation of the law. We need to legalize and regularize the flow of immigrants the labor market demands.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Lack of specificity, perhaps, but this is not dishonesty.
Well, yes, it is dishonesty. That "lack of specificity" is intentional. It is designed to obfuscate essential differences between legal and illegal immigration. That’s why the open borders crowd always talks about "immigration" and "immigrants", and never, ever, implies that there may be fundamental differences between different types of immigrants.
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
Well, yes, it is dishonesty. That "lack of specificity" is intentional.
I must lack your psychic insight into the minds of the studies authors.
 
Written By: Jon Henke
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Fantastic article! I wish the leaders of our great nation had more backbone but sure enough I’m almost sure they will puss out and give in to the invaders.
 
Written By: Ron
URL: routerider.bravejournal.com/
Superb post.
 
Written By: docjim505
URL: http://
Why aren’t calls to congressmen (in the millions no doubt) counted and reported? This is the way most engaged CITIZENS communicate their views to their representatives.

Why are people roaming the streets, professing their allegiance to a foreign country by waving foreign flags counted, filmed and reported on? Why are they apparently given more legitimacy than citizens who operate within the political system?

Personally, I would happily pay another 50 cents on a head of lettuce if I could count on the fact that it was harvested by a legal worker! I would happily buy a small house built by carptenters working here legally rather than a mansion built by illegals. I would never hire anyone to mow my lawn.
 
Written By: Citizen - Colorado
URL: http://
I would also point out, with regard to the comparisons to the assimilation status of European Muslims, that there is a rather signifigant point of difference here.

In Europe, immigrants can’t get jobs and live in public housing ghettos. Here, we worry that they will take our jobs.

A minor point, perhaps, but a relevant one none-the-less. Especially if you beleive (as I do) that Europes problems stem as much from economic stagnation and lack of economic integration, as it does from cultural problems.
 
Written By: Rosensteel
URL: http://
I must lack your psychic insight into the minds of the studies authors.
Reeeeeowr! Fffft! Fffft! Sssssssss!
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
I can not get over the stupidity of these protestors on our streets. They love their country so much they are willing to die for it and work with sweat and blood to make money and all their country wants is their money. They don’t want ugly people, they don’t want poor people, they don’t want uneducated people. All they want is their money. That many people in our streets and those are the same people that Mexico does not want but please, please send your money home. Fox almost gets out there in person and gives the ignorant his blessing: "go and make your country proud. take care...don’t get killed before you send your money home. If you come visit make sure you don’t stay too long because I need your money and I don’t care what it takes you to get it". Is Fox doing anything to get higher wages for the poor? Of course not! Is he trying to get better housing for the poor? Of course not! He does not want you...he just wants your money so the rich can get richer in Mexico. Why should he spend money on you? So, please....go wave your loving country’s flag. Tell Vicente Fox how much you love him and Mexico. If you get killed your precious Mexico doesn’t even come to help out with your funeral costs. Why? Because you are no longer any good to your loving Mexico.

Let’s see: One outstretched hand reaching for the lower tuition for school paid by taxpayers..not Mexico. One outstretched hand reaching out for subsidized housing paid for by taxpayers....not Mexico. One outstretched hand reaching out for free medical paid for by taxpayers.....not Mexico and yet it’s Viva Mexico, the country that encourages people to leave, not stay. Ignorance is surely at work.
 
Written By: Tina
URL: http://
There have always been cultural arguments against immigration, whether legal or illegal. Ben Franklin was complaining about German settlers 250 years ago:
And since Detachments of English from Britain sent to America, will have their Places at Home so soon supply’d and increase so largely here; why should the Palatine Boors be suffered to swarm into our Settlements, and by herding together establish their Language and Manners to the Exclusion f ours? Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.
Then it was the Irish, then the Italians, then the Chinese, and so on.
 
Written By: cllam
URL: http://
You have hit the center of the real problem of illegals ,the virtual unquantifiable effect on quality of life in our communities. The pundints seem to only focus on the economics.You made a brief reference to the children of illegals protesting. I would like to read the stats on the crimes committed by children of ,"hard working" illegals. How many of these new citizens ,born into the stats of being US citizens, join gangs and assimilate not into a viable part of American culture, but instead become part of a growing crime culture. there are many other factors having to do with the subject of quality of life being destroyed in our communities. I’m sure the subject would be considered racist. However it is what most people are talking about,not just the economics. Our children ,and grandchildren will pay the price as per usual. As I’m sure you are aware,most illlegals wind up in the food service industry. If they have been encourged to break our federal laws,why follow silly little laws like say, health laws. Wash my hands? silly American laws!!
 
Written By: victor Schiro
URL: http://
What kind of message does it send to, us legal residents, seeking to immigrate ?? Visa quotas for legal residents, aspiring to become immigrants (especially for Indian and Chinese citizens) means that a legal resident has to wait for years before they can become permanent residents (green-card holders)...And now, people that are here illegally get to jump the queue ??

Man, wish I could just dump my passport on the Hudson river and become an iilegal alien myself....
 
Written By: Ivan
URL: http://
I am a Mexican student that attends Central High School, in Nebraska. I feel very strongly believe that people should talk about other cultures the way some of the people that have posted comments on this website have. Hispanics are snot greedy and rude people. If they have things, they work for them. They are hard workers and should get what they earn. I was born in the United States, but I still have strong ties to my heritage. When my grandparents came here they had absolutely nothing, they came to Texas, and were illegal. They came and worked, they put their blood and sweat into there work, to become legal. They were deported back to Mexico, and had to leave my father behind, because he was legal. He worked harder than he had in his entire life, to bring his family back. I think that white people should think about how this would feel as a ten year old Mexican boy, who speaks little English, has his family taken away from him, and is left in a country were everyone speaks English and those who don’t get frowned upon. My father has earned everything he has, and I respect him for that! People who have posted rude comments on this website, ought to be ashamed of themselves. Americans make Hispanics sound like they are the worst people on earth! They make them feel like all they want is to come to this country to make money, have you ever wondered if they come here for a better life, to let their children have the opportunities they didn’t, to let their children prosper and grow to be useful to society? Well, they don’t only come here for the money, there is a lot more to it than that, and if you would open your eyes and mind, you could see that.
My parents have taught my brother and sisters not to be rude even if the person is rude to you, not to talk back, not to steal, and much more. My parents taught me a lot of things not to do, but they taught me never to forget who I am, and where I came from, whoever says it is dumb to love a country so much they would die for it, is the most un-patriotic person I know. You should always be proud of your heritage, no matter what happens, I’m not just talking about how you should remember where you come from, but remember your language, the food your people eat, the music they listen to, the way they dance, they type of clothing they wear, and most of all, that everyone is equal, no matter whether you are or aren’t the same race. Also, that you should never be ashamed of the language you speak, if people don’t like it, then they should get over it! I have gotten so many dirty looks in stores, for speaking Spanish to my family, and I thought America was supposed to be a good place, and not judge you for who you are!! I think people need to stop being so closed minded and notice, we are who we are, and you can’t change it, and we are proud of who we are, and if you can’t handle it, you just should keep your comments to yourself!
One thing that makes me really angry is this… (I took this off one of the comments on the website) "Viva Mexico!" eh? Yet, I can’t help but notice you aren’t there. Odd, that. Clearly, this is a case of absence making the heart grow fonder. Why don’t people see that Hispanics love their country??!!?? We don’t say anything when people celebrate the 4th of July, or anything!! Personally, I really do feel that America is not “The Land of Opportunities.” I feel that the only way you can survive in America, is if your family has been here since the Civil War, because my family workers there hardest, and still are struggling to pay bills and pay for clothes and food. Because of this, my brother and I pay for groceries and school needs for our sisters. Does this prove to you that we aren’t lazy, and just want everything given to us?? I am so proud of my heritage, language, and most of all my family, because they have taught me the important lessons everyone should know and learn! This is not all I have to say about this topic, but I don’t feel like wasting time with people who are rude and inconsiderate to other people’s cultures!
 
Written By: Elizabeth
URL: http://
One of the reasons is that many Americans will have an sharp reaction to waking up like I did this morning, and seeing this on the front page of the local newspaper.

Funniest thing I read today - you don’t for a moment think the NY Times will offend their readership with these photos? (I’m kidding - you said "local", and I’m sure you don’t expect the Times to show this - this is as close as they got.)

So, if we continue to let in millions of illegal immigrants, it won’t affect me econonomically.

Our plan for you is to develop high-speed broadband to the point where the tech side of your job will be done in India; video conferencing will take care of a lot of other US customers, and the very few who want to pay a premium to speak to a live human will get you. *Then* we will see how supply and demand shake out...
 
Written By: Tom Maguire
URL: http://
I am a Mexican student
then...
I was born in the United States
Doesn’t this say it all? (Elizabeth is a second generation American.)
 
Written By: JWG
URL: http://
Our plan for you is to develop high-speed broadband to the point where the tech side of your job will be done in India; video conferencing will take care of a lot of other US customers, and the very few who want to pay a premium to speak to a live human will get you. *Then* we will see how supply and demand shake out...
Actually, I do all of my work for smaller compnaies who don’t have the resources or the time to deal with foreign outsourcing. In fact, two of my current clients are people who actually tried to do that, and gave up on it. Outsourcing may e a good deal for larger companies, but smaller companies tend not to do it.
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
I am a second generation American of Mexican descent. My father and mother came to the United States legally, filling all the requirements that were necessary in 1924. My father became a naturalized citizen as soon as he was able. My mother followed a short time later getting her citizenship. They were very proud of being Americans. They no longer referred to themselves as Mexicans, they were Americans. They learned English. They worked hard to better themselves and raised their family. Four of my seven brothers served honorably in the armed forces in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam. I can remember my father talking with a great deal of pride at being an American. And, with tears in his eyes, saying he had tried to enlist at the beginning of WWII and had too many children.

Seeing pictures of people demonstrating today while carrying Mexican flags made me think that they are not ready for citizenship while they continue to hold an allegiance to Mexico. Illegals have broken our laws. Although I understand their desire to live a better life (as my parents did), I do not want them to come into our country by starting off with no respect for our laws. They should stay in their country and try to better conditions there.

Many of these people are coming from El Salvador, Equator, Honduras and other central American countries. They are not all Mexicans. Conditions in those countries are also terrible. But we cannot take all the worlds indigent people into our country without it overburdening our resources.

Another problem I have with the illegals is that they are uneducated for the most part. It will take a couple of generations to change that. If we give them amnesty again, it will just keep encouraging them to continue coming. I honestly don’t know what the solution is, but we must maintain control of our borders.

I don’t like the idea of putting them in jail. It bothers me a lot! We have to keep catching them and sending back across the border. I do think that employers who take advantage of the cheap labor should be fined enough to hurt them and make them think twice about hiring the illegals.

We may have to spend much more money on border patrols than we do now. And, I am all for that. And we could do it if we were not involved in Iraq and Afganistan.


 
Written By: G. L. Roberts
URL: http://
It wasn’t the "viva la Mexico" signs that provoked me as much as the picture of the Mexican flag hanging over the American one. These guys are seriously ruining the immigration cause for the rest of us. Although I’m a pretty strong proponent of immigration, that’s just messed up.

I’m afraid my blog isn’t quite as sophisticated as yours, but then again I just got started and am still learning the tricks of the trade.
 
Written By: Dave
URL: http://far-center.blogspot.com
i think that this imagrathion law that is trying to be passed is wrong ima a mexican american female and yes i have family members that are illegal for you to say that being here when you were born in mexico is a crime then your wrong people my grandparents and great grand parents left mexico to give there children better lives were we can heave edgucathion and a chance to have a good life and for yall to say it is crime thats wrong im onle 14 years old but i have a strong voice and i know my opinions will be heard and will make a big difference
 
Written By: Anabel gonzalez
URL: http://
Punctuation, capitalization and spelling, Anabel. It makes your message more understandable (and powerful).

All anyone here is asking is that those who wish to come here do so legally. There are methods to do so. We’d only like to see them followed.

That said, it is important that the method by which we do so improve so it is easier and takes less time to be approved.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
Very interesting indeed, why isn’t anyone condemning the flying of the Irish flag on St. Patrick’s day or calling for the abolishment of Little Italy in the Bronx, NY where Italian flags and culture are plainly in sight What about undocumented Canadians, Europeans ? It seems people have forgotten that they too through their predecessors, no matter how long ago, entered this country as immigrants.
 
Written By: Mike
URL: http://
And illegal immigration has costs that legal immigration does not. Here in California the cost of providing Health Care, Education...and Incarceration to illegal immigrants is $10.5 billion.
Interesting source for the statistics from FAIR :

FAIR recently helped run a billboard campaign in Virginia blaming immigrants for traffic and sprawl. Last summer, FAIR attacked Sen. Spencer Abraham (R-Mich.), an Arab-American, for supporting more visas for foreigners with high-technology skills.

In radio and TV ads, it said Abraham’s proposal could "make it easier for [Arab] terrorists like Osama bin Laden to export their way of terror to any street in America." FAIR’s ads were condemned across the country and caused former Sen. Alan K. Simpson (R-Wyo.) to resign from FAIR’s advisory board.

In a 1997 interview, Tanton said that unless U.S. borders are sealed, America will be overrun by people "defecating and creating garbage and looking for jobs."


Read on :

In the eyes of most of these groups, immigrants (typically, non-white immigrants) are responsible for nearly all the country’s ills, from poverty and inner city decay to crime, urban sprawl and environmental degradation.
 
Written By: obie
URL: http://
Very interesting indeed, why isn’t anyone condemning the flying of the Irish flag on St. Patrick’s day or calling for the abolishment of Little Italy in the Bronx, NY where Italian flags and culture are plainly in sight
Probably because people with the capacity for rational thought recognize that there’s a plain demarkation between people who claim pride in being Irish at some point in the past, and people who claim that 1/4 of the United States belongs to a foreign power.

If you can’t grasp the difference between those two ideas, then you’re probably beyond help.
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
i think that this imagrathion law that is trying to be passed is wrong ima a mexican american female and yes i have family members that are illegal for you to say that being here when you were born in mexico is a crime then your wrong people my grandparents and great grand parents left mexico to give there children better lives were we can heave edgucathion and a chance to have a good life and for yall to say it is crime thats wrong im onle 14 years old but i have a strong voice and i know my opinions will be heard and will make a big difference
You’re probably right, although I doubt it’ll be the "difference" you think it’ll be.
 
Written By: Dale Franks
URL: http://www.qando.net
Dale Franks wrote,

"What illegal immigration allows is the creation of a new, permanent, underclass of helots. The illegal immigrant is a slave in practically every respect but name. He has no prospect for advancement. He has no ability to share in the affluence of Americvan society. But, even worse, he prevents the native born American of Hispanic or African -American descent from ascending from helotage, too. So, in the end, we still get our helots, but they are willing helots whose labor conditions are better than those that obtain in their native country.

"Helotage is helotage, however, no matter how we obtain our helots. And, as long as illegals serve as our helots, they will be as ineligible for advancement as the Messenian Helots of Sparta were in the 5th century BC. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, support for the current system of illegal immigration is nothing more than support for a system of helotage where the laborers are permanently prevented from participating in the broader economic life of the country.

"But we don’t actually need helots in agriculture."

Mr. Franks, may I join with you in the attack which will break the power of big business and the Chamber, and which will eventually turn the tide of this war on the United States of America.

When We the People recognize that the 12 (15? 20?) million illegal aliens are serfs / sublaborers / servants even post-indenture / helots / quasi-slaves, WtP will also recognize that the illegal aliens’ employers are criminals, pariahs, outcasts, degenerates, outlaws, brigands, failures, rejects, and worthless, no matter what filthy profits they make from their quasi-slave labor.

After that, WtP will recognize, for what they are, these employers’ agents in the marketplace and the media, in banking and construction, in government education, in social service agencies, in Catholic Charities and the Latino Roman Catholic ecclesial organization, in the A¢¢¢LU, SπLC, LULÅÇ, and Lå Rå≡å, as well as in the U.S. Senate and the White House.

Then will the boycotts begin.

Who will be the William Wilberforce of the 21st century?
 
Written By: MinutemanCDC_SC
URL: http://
Dale Franks wrote,

"What illegal immigration allows is the creation of a new, permanent, underclass of helots. The illegal immigrant is a slave in practically every respect but name. He has no prospect for advancement. He has no ability to share in the affluence of Americvan society. But, even worse, he prevents the native born American of Hispanic or African -American descent from ascending from helotage, too. So, in the end, we still get our helots, but they are willing helots whose labor conditions are better than those that obtain in their native country.

"Helotage is helotage, however, no matter how we obtain our helots. And, as long as illegals serve as our helots, they will be as ineligible for advancement as the Messenian Helots of Sparta were in the 5th century BC. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, support for the current system of illegal immigration is nothing more than support for a system of helotage where the laborers are permanently prevented from participating in the broader economic life of the country.

"But we don’t actually need helots in agriculture."

Mr. Franks, may I join with you in the attack which will break the power of big business and the Chamber, and which will eventually turn the tide of this war on the United States of America.

When We the People recognize that the 12 (15? 20?) million illegal aliens are serfs / sublaborers / servants even post-indenture / helots / quasi-slaves, WtP will also recognize that the illegal aliens’ employers are criminals, pariahs, outcasts, degenerates, outlaws, brigands, failures, rejects, and worthless, no matter what filthy profits they make from their quasi-slave labor.

After that, WtP will recognize, for what they are, these employers’ agents in the marketplace and the media, in banking and construction, in government education, in social service agencies, in Catholic Charities and the Latino Roman Catholic ecclesial organization, in the A¢¢¢LU, SπLC, LULÅÇ, and Lå Rå≡å, as well as in the U.S. Senate and the White House.

Then will the boycotts begin.

Who will be the William Wilberforce of the 21st century?
 
Written By: MinutemanCDC_SC
URL: http://
I am writing this message to the person who wrote a comment to a Mexican-American female named Anabel. They call themselves McQ. I think that this girl was trying to express her feelings without being rude. I think that if you could read the comment she posted, you shouldn’t have said anything. Do you really have nothing better to do than make corrections to what people say? If you do, then maybe you should find something to do.

I have posted a comment on this webpage before; I believe that I was mostly pleasant, even after reading what the other people said. I wrote that with anger inside me, but I was not rude, because I was afraid that if I would have said I really wanted to say, “Caucasian” people might have been offended by what I think they really need to hear/read.

Now I am writing this email out of anger, and I am no longer afraid to speak my mind. But, I will not write down everything I have to say, because there is not enough time in my whole entire life to explain to you how I truly feel about this country.

This country is my home land and I think that it is GREAT! I am proud to be a Mexican-American female in the home of the brave. But, I also think that American promotes its self on the immigrant land. If you are posting comments on this site, saying how you think it is so stupid for supporting a country you love, and that they should go back to where they came from. Unless you are full blooded American Indian, that your ancestors where immigrants, which makes you a how ever many year generation to this country, and if your parents came to NY in a ship, most likely they were NOT LEGAL! Maybe you should take a long look in the mirror, because you have no idea what it takes to get your citizenship. You have to prove that you have things here and in your home land, like a home to live in, a job you can go back to if you have to go back. So if you are coming from a family with virtually nothing, how are you supposed to say that you have things here and there, you can’t! You also have to learn English, which costs money, and you need so much more. So, if you come here illegally, than that means you can make a life for yourself, and then work on becoming legal!
I think that Bush should let them come here and prove that they are good hard workers, so they can stay to make a life for their children to prosper in the world.


This portion of my message is to a person who calls themselves JWG:
They posted this, in regards to my first comment:
I am a Mexican student
then...
I was born in the United States
Doesn’t this say it all? (Elizabeth is a second generation American.)

No, this doesn’t say it all, at least not to me! Just because I am a second generation American, doesn’t mean anything!! It just means that I was born in this country. I support Mexico, and so does my family.

My family, friends, and I do things that are traditional in Mexico. We still speak the language, eat the food, listen to the music, dance the way they dance there, celebrate Cinco de May (5th of May), celebrate Dia de Los Muertos (Day of the Dead). These are a few of the things we still do to keep are heritage and culture with us. I am not ashamed to be a Mexican, a Latina, a Chicana, and a Hispanic nothing can make forget who I am, and hold me back from what I want to do.

I don’t think any one would understand the discrimination I face everyday I wake up unless they experience it themselves. I have been discriminated against by mostly white people, I have been called a wetback to my face by numerous people, including adults, I have been made fun of for not speaking like everyone else, because I have an accent, my friends and I get funny looks from people when ever we go somewhere and speak in our native languages, and quite frankly, I AM SICK AND TIRED OF IT!!

The last thing I will say in this comment is that America would be nothing without us, you know you need us, and you just don’t want to admit it! What would you do if you sent us back? White people would actually have to clean there own houses and do there own yard work, and landscaping, and for once you would have to pick on someone else!

VIVA MEXICO!!
 
Written By: Elizabeth
URL: http://
Now I am writing this email out of anger, and I am no longer afraid to speak my mind.
Well good for you. And I’d point out that you’re not speaking out in "anger" but, if one reads your rant, you’re displaying your latent racism.

We don’t need "you" unless "you" assmiliate into the society here. And we certainly don’t need you unless you can figure out that it is to your advantage (and that of everyone elses) to come into this country legally. It protects you and, frankly, will mean better treatment.

As for the rest of your nonsense, stick it in your ear. We’re all immigrants to include those known as "American Indians". That doesn’t change the reality of today. Today the United States of America exists, has borders and laws concerning immigration.

Legal immigrants are welcome. Illegals aren’t.

This isn’t about immigrants who come to this country the right way. It’s about those who think they can flout laws, come here illegally, cut in line in front of the immigrants who’ve obeyed the law, and then demand they be rewarded for ignoring the law.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
"It’s about those who think they can flout laws, come here illegally, cut in line in front of the immigrants who’ve obeyed the law, and then demand they be rewarded for ignoring the law."

Why don’t you stick that in your ear?? I’m not the racist one, i am just saying that the people that arent of hispanic decent all seem to think the same way, I am not talking about them all, I am saying some of them!
Illegal immigrants dont try to get rewarded for anything!And they don’t cut in line for things. I think you are crazy and have no idea what you are talking about, if you really knew the pain and frustration people go through to be legal in this country, then you would understand, why it is not so easy for everyone.
AND, YOU DO NEED US, WHO WOULD CLEAN YOUR HOUSES? WHO WOULD GROW YOUR FOOD? WHO WOULD PICK YOUR FOOD WHEN IT IS TIME TO HARVEST IT? WE DO IT ALL, AND EVERYONE WHO CAN’T CLEAN THEIR OWN HOUSE, WOULD LIVE IN A PIG PEN. FARMERS WOULD HAVE TO HIRE LAZY PEOPLE AND PEOPLE WHO DON’T APPLY THEMSELVES, TO GROW AND PICK THEIR FOOD. THIS COUNTRY WOULD BE NOTHING...I REPEAT NOTHING WITHOUT US!!!
WE LET YOUR SNOT-NOSED KIDS LEARN OUR LANGUAGE, AND THEY CAN’T EVEN SAY THE WORDS RIGHT. THEY CAN’T ROLL THERE R’S, AND THEY FAIL AT IT, BUT WE DON;T SAY ANYTHING TO THEM. BUT IF WE COME HERE, AND DON;T SPEAK ENGLISH, WE GET RASCIST COMMENTS TWORD US, WE GET LAUGHED AT IN SCHOOL BY THE WHITE KIDS WHEN WE DON;T SPEAK PERFECT ENGLISH. BUT IF WE SAY ANYTHING TO YOUR KIDS ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO SPEAK SPANISH CORRECTLY, THEY YELL AT US, AND ACT LIKE WE ARE BEING RACIST TO THEM. BUT WE AREN’T, WE ARE CORRECTING THEM, AND GIVING THEM A TASTE OF THEIR OWN MEDICINE!!!!!!
LEGALS MAY BE WELCOME HERE, BUT SO ARE ILLEGALS, I LIVE IN A NEIGBORHOOD, WHERE YOU COULD LIVE HERE EIGHTY YEARS AND NOT HAVE TO LEARN A LICK OF ENGLISH.
SO DON’T TRY TO TELL ME THAT ILLEGALS AREN’T WELCOME, BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT ISN’T EXACTLY GOING AROUND TO EVERY HOUSE AND TAKING THEM TO W/E THEY BELONG, WHETHER IT BE TIJUANA, OR ALCAPULCO!

VIVA MEXICO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!











 
Written By: Elizabeth
URL: http://
Heh ... thanks for proving my point, Elizabeth.

Oh, and long live the United States of America.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
YOUR A JERK!!!!!!!!
 
Written By: Elizabeth
URL: http://
YOUR A JERK!!!!!!!!
LOL!!

 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
I don;t know why you are laughing because nothing about this subject is funny!!!
 
Written By: Elizabeth
URL: http://
You’re funny, Elizabeth.

That’s why I’m laughing.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/
WHATEVER!!!!!
 
Written By: Elizabeth
URL: http://
I believe we all need to calm down and present our thoughts and feelings as civilized people. Offending others does not make us better people, and respecting other’s opinions truly represent the freedom ideal we believe in. I am from Chile, I’ve been in this country for almost 6 years. I became a resident last year, and hope to become a citizen in a couple of years. Although my desire of becoming an American citizen is very strong because I’ve assimilated myself into this culture, I still knowledge the fact that I am Hispanic, and that my native language is Spanish. Most people who come to this country, illegaly, do so because it is the only way they can create a prosper and successful future for their children. Unfortunately, higher education after graduating from high school is extremely hard to attain without being a resident; otherwise, the tuition charges will be considered as if for an international student. When I was trying to apply for college, I realized that I didn’t hav ethe means to pay for it, I had a visa to be here, but the residency papers were in process. I guess what I’m trying to say is that the majority of people want to succeed in life, and coming to this land is the best way to do it when no better opportunities are offered in one’s own home-land. Ever since I’ve been in this country I have been legal; therefore, I’ve paid taxes. I know it is a little unfair that illegal people get an easier way of obtaining their naturalization while people who try to do everything according to the law (like my parent’s have), have the uncertainty of whether they will ever be naturalized. But I also believe that illegal people deserve a chance to prove to this society how important their existance in this country is.
I am totally for the an Amnesty in favor of those illegal immigrants who truly wish to become American citizens.

 
Written By: Nicole
URL: http://
NICOLE: THANK YOU!!!!!!!
 
Written By: Elizabeth
URL: http://
Offending others does not make us better people, and respecting other’s opinions truly represent the freedom ideal we believe in.
Please be kind enough to pass that on to Elizabeth who apparently believes it is ok to visit someone’s blog and insult one of the hosts with nice little word bombs like:
YOUR A JERK!!!!!!!!
Perhaps someday she’ll learn to be as reasoned as you are.
I am totally for the an Amnesty in favor of those illegal immigrants who truly wish to become American citizens.
And that’s where you and I differ, although I appreciate your opinion. They the absolute right to attempt to become American citizens, but they must do it the right way. Apply and do it legally. And I don’t care if the illegal is from Mexico or Ireland ... he or she shouldn’t be rewarded for breaking the law and attempting to cut in front of people who’ve legally immigrated and are seeking the same status.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.qando.net/blog
Subject: results from the boycott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On May 1st, as a result of the Mexican boycott,
> > national retailers reported 4.2% lower sales for the
> > day, with a 67.8% reduction in shoplifting
 
Written By: Ed
URL: http://

 
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