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Valuable endorsement or nail in the coffin?
Posted by: McQ on Thursday, April 03, 2008

Frankly, if I were Obama, I'm not sure I'd be that thrilled with this endorsement:
Jane Fonda, the actress and ardent anti-Vietnam War advocate who visited North Vietnam during those hostilities, has endorsed Democrat Barack Obama for president.
I'm not one who throws this word around lightly but considering what she did at the time, giving aid (propaganda photo anyone?) and comfort (got on the radio in NV and condemned her own country) I've always considered her to be a traitor.



For many Vietnam and Vietnam era vets she symbolized those who crossed the line from responsible dissent to materially aiding the war effort of the enemy. Legally she got a pass. But in the minds of many veterans she is a despicable creature that few have forgiven. Most, like myself, don't use the "F" word, don't buy her products or anything associated with her name and take every opportunity presented to remind other of what she did - especially in this new era that finds the majority of our nation supporting our troops. This is one of them so bear with me.

For those who want to complain that Vietnam is old news, I'll agree. However, what happened to those who fought it at the hands of the people of their own nation isn't old news as far as I'm concerned, and that's the point here. For many of them it is as fresh as the day they walked through the SF airport. Whether you agree or not with the actions of your country, when you do things that materially benefit the war effort of your country's enemy, you've crossed that line from patriotism (it is patriotic to dissent) to traitorous conduct. She did that and I will forever revile her for doing so. Anytime she sticks her turkey-neck out into the public eye, I'm going to remind people of her past.

And yes, this is personal. [/rant]
___________

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Hanoi Jane can burst into flame and die in a God Damn fire, dying a slow (oh so very slow) and painful (oh so very painful) death. She can then rise up from the dead, only to fall down a well and die.

Dad was in Vietnam. He was never a POW, but it’s easy enough to put him in a position where she would have passed by his beaten self, and declared there was no abuses.

The list of people I truly, deeply, and utterly hate is quite small. No more than 15 or 20 slots.

Hanoi Jane takes up two of them. Near the top.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Valuable endorsement or nail in the coffin?
Neither. He’ll get the Code Pink vote in the general election regardless of this endorsement. In addition, he does not have a 20+ year personal, mentoring relationship with Hanoi Jane, so I wouldn’t assume that he has adopted her life views and philosophies. I would not do much more than blink at this one.
 
Written By: Is
URL: http://
this is the most idiotic concept ever. you shouldnt vote for x because y endorses x!!!

so i shouldn’t vote for mccain because hugo endorses him? im sorry im a independent minded person and will make my decision based on the individuals character and past choices. all this endorsement business is for sheeple.
 
Written By: slntax
URL: http://
this is the most idiotic concept ever. you shouldnt vote for x because y endorses x!!!
Who made that statement or even implied that?

I simply said this isn’t an endorsement that Obama should be particularly happy with and I told you why?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
Neither. He’ll get the Code Pink vote in the general election regardless of this endorsement.
Of course he will, but that’s not a vote he’s courting since, as you mention, he already has it. But how about independents? Veterans? Any effect there?
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
It’s the kind of people that Obama attracts that is of interest to me. If people that I abhor like Jane Fonda, Teresa Heinz Kerry, Jimmy Carter...etc, are flocking to Obama then they must see something in him that I will intensely dislike.
 
Written By: Bob
URL: http://
take every opportunity presented to remind other of what she did
Admiting you have a problem is the first step, brother.
 
Written By: Retief
URL: http://
I wonder if such endorsements might have a cumulative effect on voters’ impression of Obama. According to Rasmussen today, Obama is considered to be "liberal" by 54%, while 31% consider him "moderate." I continue to be surprised at how many Americans, such as Prof. Erb not long ago, believe Obama to be some kind of centrist.

This seems to be based on Obama’s repeated claims that he be cannot classified as liberal and by his occasional deviations (no gay marriage) from the liberal songbook. However, his voting record, his standard New Deal-ish rhetoric, his background and his associates are almost entirely on the left. To deny this is an exercise in ignoring the obvious. My only question is how far to the left is Obama?

It’s now clear that Obama has intentionally misled voters on how radical his church is. Voters should be now wondering whether Obama is misleading the country on how radical he is.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
I wonder if such endorsements might have a cumulative effect on voters’ impression of Obama.
I think that’s exactly what happens. The type of people who are drawn to a candidate are usuall drawn by an assumed shared ideology and beliefs. When Jimmy Carter endorses Obama, it will be another of many indicators voters will have by which to zero in on what Obama is really about. Some, obviously, will have no problem with such an endorsement. Some may finally reject Obama because of the endorsement and what it portends. And some will simply add it to the pile of info they need to sort through before making a decision.
 
Written By: McQ
URL: http://www.QandO.net
so i shouldn’t vote for mccain because hugo endorses him?
Now there’s an interesting slant, and I do mean slant, on reality.



Retief - you should really wonder what kind of problem a used up, know nothing twit from Hollywood has in thinking HER endorsement of a candidate, any candidate, would be significant. Someone has a problem all right.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Most people moved beyond that kind of emotional reaction to a young star’s confused politics after On Golden Pond, the work out videos, and the rest of her career. Fonda is a net plus for Obama (well, probably she’s unimportant enough to be meaningless); those who think viscerally about her are the kind of folk who wouldn’t vote for Obama anyway. Grudge carrying is silly, IMO.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Most people moved beyond that kind of emotional reaction to a young star’s confused politics after On Golden Pond, the work out videos, and the rest of her career.
I beg to differ. Those who sat the fence regarding her activities during VN or who had minor differences with her actions may have "moved on." But the vast majority of the Veterans of that war have not forgotten or forgiven what most of them consider Jane Fonda’s traitorous actions. But don’t take my word for it. Take a stroll down to your nearest VFW and ask the gentlemen there what their opinions are. I think you may be shocked at just how "silly" these people can be.
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
Most people moved beyond that kind of emotional reaction to a young star’s confused politics after On Golden Pond, the work out videos, and the rest of her career
then the ’most people’ you cite are mindless twerps charmed by celebrity since nothing you listed there is a measure of real accomplishment that ought to change any-one’s mind about her behavior in the 70’s.

There’s nothing confused about her politics, they remain essentially unchanged.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
But the vast majority of the Veterans of that war
Or their kids...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
then the ’most people’ you cite are mindless twerps c
By the way, this is typical of responses on so many issues. Disagree with someone and you are labeled something like a ’mindless twerp.’ Some of you really need to understand that reasonable people can disagree. And many reasonable people think it’s unhealthy, or at least silly, if people hold grudges for decades. That era was emotional, with some people going too far one way or another. People learn and move on. Or they get stuck in grudge mode. Whatever gets you through the night, it’s alright.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
The list of people I truly, deeply, and utterly hate is quite small. No more than 15 or 20 slots.
That’s small? Yikes, to truly hate 15 or so people seems like a lot of bitterness. Personally, I can’t think of one person I hate.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
To this day I go out of my way to avoid her movies. Her actions were treason, she was lucky to have avoided the noose. Some of the names on that wall are a good friend, a neighbor, and the brother of a teacher.

I will reluctantly accept that the country has decided to ignore this. Just don’t ask me to forget.
 
Written By: MarkD
URL: http://
That’s small? Yikes, to truly hate 15 or so people seems like a lot of bitterness. Personally, I can’t think of one person I hate.
Out of a global population of 6.6 billion or so? That’s proportionally non-existant...

Folks like you? I merely dispise you. :)
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
But you don’t know 6.6 billion people, it seems like a lot to truly hate 15 people. I’d have to really know someone to hate them. I certainly wouldn’t hate someone over their political actions, especially if it’s just a matter of naively posing in pictures with the bad guys. From what I’ve read (including this just now) her actions may have been thoughtless, but not that important. So hate?

But again, I can’t think of anyone I hate.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Prof. Erb — I for one have no interest in your advice. However, I am curious whether you still consider Obama a centrist, or at least not a liberal.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
Most people moved beyond that kind of emotional reaction to a young star’s confused politics after On Golden Pond, the work out videos, and the rest of her career
Leave it to Erb to come up with this one.
Tell you what, let’s test this;

Let’s get Obama to attach to all his advertsing, a slogan:

OBAMA... The choice of Jane Fonda.

Yeah. That’ll work for him, huh? Whatcha think, Erb?

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
"Admiting you have a problem is the first step, brother."
Fine, then. Fonda is a problem. What’s the next step?
 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
I have a couple of suggestions...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Huxley, I believe I’ve always considered Obama a liberal. When did I call him a centrist? Also, lest you all forget, I am very critical of his economic plans, which are for more government bureaucracy, something I think we need less of.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Erb maybe has a point regarding some segment of the population that is too young for Vietnam but old enough to remember the work out videos. Any younger than that, and they don’t know who she is. Any older and they remember things as McQ has it.

Luckily McQ keeps reminding me of Fonda’s actions, so I am well informed and don’t get all teary eyed over Golden Pond (a movie) instead of over our vets (real live people.)
 
Written By: Harun
URL: http://
Harun; I like where you’re going, here, but let’s not forget the dead ones on her hands.
 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
In the Spring and Summer of 1972, while Jane Fonda and Ramsey Clark were in Hanoi were supporting the North Vietnamese 200,000 man invasion of the South, I was an F4E weapon systems officer in the 366 Tac Fighter Wing at DaNang. We had the pleasure of actually striking valuable targets North and South in Operation Linebacker - a massive air campaign to destroy the North’s ability to wage war. I know what Fonda, Clark, Murtha, Kerry, Obey, Church and Kennedy did and it’s not okay.

In November of 1974, I delivered an F4F to Jever AB in West Germany and met the Commander, Colonel Goldberg, a great guy. He had been an Me262 pilot in WWII. During the war he had been shot down seven times, including on his initial solo. We closed down the Officers Club, took a bottle of Cognac and sat on the steps. It was a brilliant night, bitter cold.

I asked him how he could drink with me, the son of an American infantry officer who fought in his country killing many of his soldiers. I told him that had he been an NVA officer, I would have cut his throat. Goldberg told me I would eventually forget about all the bad things.

So far, he has been wrong.
 
Written By: Arch
URL: http://
Goldberg told me I would eventually forget about all the bad things.

So far, he has been wrong.
Ultimately I think life is about understanding and forgiveness. For a German in WWII, the cause seemed just, heroic and to protect the fatherland. The propaganda hid some of the reality, others self-censored. For someone like Fonda, the emotion and rebellious spirit of the 60s overtook common sense and balance. I think in general those are human faults shared by us all. They don’t all come out in the same way, but I think we’re better off understanding and not judging too much, especially if its something like a bad decision in youth or the heat of the moment. But that’s just me.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Ultimately I think life is about understanding and forgiveness.
If you can forgive the crap the NVA did to those it held as POWs, you’re a bigger pile of sh*t than I ever thought, and you would be well on your way to a spot on the list.
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
"Ultimately I think life is about understanding and forgiveness."
That’s because the very idea of fighting for your own life would never occur to you in a million years.

Arch: hat’s off, sir. I’m glad you made it.

 
Written By: Billy Beck
URL: http://www.two—four.net/weblog.php
well informed and don’t get all teary eyed over Golden Pond (a movie) instead of over our vets (real live people.)
Ding - reality.
And many reasonable people think it’s unhealthy, or at least silly, if people hold grudges for decades.
and many reasonable people hold other people responsible for their past actions, and don’t assume acting in a touching movie absolves them for those actions.

Some people deliberately use weasel words, like "grudge", to color the discussion and imply these people who hold others responsible aren’t mature or reasonable.

In case you are confused, you’re the later, not the former.
Disagree with someone and you are labeled
emotional, grudge holding, unresonable, and mentally unhealthy.
Yes, no labeling going on in your mind is there Prof.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
So far, he has been wrong.
Arch: I was a young Air Force F-4D WSO stationed at RAF Bentwaters in 1976 when the first ever River Rats Convention was held outside the US, at Ramstein Air Base (in germany for all you civilians out there). I got a chance to attend with my Wing DO for one of the evening festivities. The O’Club at Ramstein was packed not only with River Rats but also invited was the British and German (Horrido) Aces associations. There I was (how many war stories have your heard that started with that line), a young Lieutenant WSO looking at these Aces from History. I have to tell you I was awestruck. Some of the names were right out of the history books: Hartmann (352 kills), Barkhorn (301), Steinhoff (178), and then there were our own more recent aces from Viet Nam: Robin Olds, DeBellevue, and Ritchie, along with the navy’s Cunningham and Driscoe.

My Do (Director of Operations) was talking to the USAFE DO when Barkhorn (at the time the German Air Force Chief of Staff) came up and introduced himself. I can’t remember the USAFE DO’s name but I know he was new to the theater and had flown P-47s in WWII. Barkhorn asked him if he ever flew over Italy in the war. The General said that he was with the 8th Air Force in England and flew over France and Germany exclusively. Barkhorn looked disappointed. When asked why, he took off a glove he was wearing and showed everbody his right hand - He was missing his right thumb. "I was shot down 17 times in the war and the only time I was ever scratched was when a P-47 pilot shot off my thumb in the middle of a dogfight. I have been looking for that man ever since." When asked what he would do if he ever found the man, he laughed and replied "Shake hands with him and watch his face as he realizes I have no thumb!"

Someone asked the General how he could be so forgiving and the general replied "We lost, but all is well - we are still flying. It would have been a far different story had I been on the other side of the Iron Curtain. There I would probably still be in a Gulag." He turned to his friend, Erich Hartman and said "Tell them when you finally got back from the East." Hartmann merely smiled and said, "1955."
 
Written By: SShiell
URL: http://
"confused politics"

There was nothing confused about them. She was very clear.

"Grudge carrying is silly, IMO."

Tell it to Simon Wiesenthal et al., meathead.


"But again, I can’t think of anyone I hate."

Of course not. Hating requires that you actually care about something. Other than yourself, I mean.

"if it’s just a matter of naively posing in pictures with the bad guys"

It isn’t, and saying it is is one reason you are held in such contempt.

"Ultimately I think life is about understanding and forgiveness."

Again, tell it to Simon Wiesenthal, et al.



 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
weasel words, like "grudge",
Not a weasel word, but a word with a pretty clear definition. If you’re angry at someone years after some event or misdeed, it’s a grudge.

If you can forgive the crap the NVA did to those it held as POWs, you’re a bigger pile of sh*t than I ever thought, and you would be well on your way to a spot on the list.
I can easily forgive just about anything, including things far worse than that. People in Rwanda who have forgiven, or in South Africa, show far more courage and humanity than those who out of anger over atrocities committed hold hate in their hearts. That burns within, you hurt no one but yourself.

That’s because the very idea of fighting for your own life would never occur to you in a million years.
You think just because people understand and forgive, they won’t defend their lives? I really feel sorry for you sometimes, Billy.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Hating requires that you actually care about something.
Hate is the ultimate in caring only for oneself. And hate ultimately is connected with fear, violence, and a spiral away from truth.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Somehow, Erb, you "judgement" of me just makes me feel better for feeling what I do. Anything you disprove of has GOT to have many, MANY positives...
 
Written By: Scott Jacobs
URL: http://
Grudge carrying is silly, IMO.

My Uncle served honorably in Vietnam, winning two purple hearts and a Bronze Star during his tour of duty.

In 1996 - over twenty years after the end of "the war" in Vietnam, an ACLU card-carrying left wing radical from the sixties became his supervisor. He started calling my uncle "the babykiller" and promised to end his career at his company.

He succeeded.

Tell it to your liberal buddies, Erb.
 
Written By: The Gonzman
URL: http://

"I can easily forgive just about anything, including things far worse than that."

I am sure you can because, as I said, you don ’t give a D*** about anything but yourself. As if you had the moral authority to forgive such things. It is presumptuous of you to even pretend your ’forgiveness’ of Hitler, Pol Pot, or anyone else actually means anything. It is, rather, an indication of your moral emptiness.

From your definition;
"noun
a strong, continued feeling of hostility or ill will against someone over a real or fancied grievance"

I fail to see why such a feeling cannot be justified. Perhaps you can explain why feelings of ill will are not justified against, for example, the perpetrators of the Rwandan genocide.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Huxley, I believe I’ve always considered Obama a liberal
Prof. Erb — Many threads ago you were gassing on about how in this election cycle we were moving beyond the simplistic dichotomy of left and right with McCain and Obama as examples. I asked how in the world that Obama, a candidate who had earned the title "Most Liberal Senator of 2007" with his voting record, could possibly be considered anything other than a leftist. You never got back to me.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
"Hate is the ultimate in caring only for oneself. And hate ultimately is connected with fear, violence, and a spiral away from truth."

Absolute hogwash.

"Definitions of hate on the Web:

dislike intensely; feel antipathy or aversion towards; "I hate Mexican food"; "She detests politicians"
the emotion of hate; a feeling of dislike so strong that it demands action
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Hatred is an emotion of intense revulsion, distaste, , or antipathy for a person, thing, or phenomenon, generally attributed to a desire to avoid, restrict, remove, or destroy the hated object. Hatred is also among the most common emotions that humans experience. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:hate&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

Perhaps you can explain how hating Naziism of Communism is the ultimate in caring for oneself. Not to mention the ’spiral away from truth’, whatever the he** that means.


"You never got back to me"

*snicker*
New here?.
 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Well, look, Tim, give him this much... but those definitions he gives, he’s got Jeremiah Wright pegged.

(Snicker)

 
Written By: Bithead
URL: http://bitsblog.florack.us
Perhaps you can explain how hating Naziism of Communism is the ultimate in caring for oneself.
You internalize an "ism" and give it power over you (via hate). It’s myopic and narcissistic. Hating an "ism" is silly. Believing an ism wrong, evil, and fighting to prevent its spread is not. Giving it power over your emotions is a kind of self-flagellation.

Huxley, I didn’t respond because I didn’t disagree, Obama is of course on the left.

Hate occurs when you give someone or something else power over your emotional state. It doesn’t hurt that which you hate, it only can hurt yourself. And, of course, hate occurs across the political spectrum, from someone who considers anyone who fought in the war to be a baby killer to someone who thinks anyone who opposed the war is a traitor.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Huxley, I didn’t respond because I didn’t disagree, Obama is of course on the left.
Prof. Erb — Then, your earlier statement that Obama is part of some bold new paradigm beyond left and right was mistaken?

Unless, of course, the bold new paradigm is simply saying you’re part of a bold, new paradigm, while in fact being more of the same-old, same-old. Which has been Obama’s strategy since the beginning of his campaign, though it’s wearing thinner and thinner.

BTW, please lose the pop-psych lectures.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
"You internalize an "ism" and give it power over you (via hate)."

No, because I sleep under a pyramid, oriented properly with respect to the sun and the moon, which protects me from disharmonious vibrations like that. Also I wear my Wiccan talisman to ward off evil spirits. Now it is time to arrange my metaphysical crystals and healing stones, then I am off to aroma therapy.


"to someone who thinks anyone who opposed the war is a traitor."

Ah, yes. The gross misrepresentation and distortion of reality that has earned you your well deserved reputation.


 
Written By: timactual
URL: http://
Hate occurs when you give someone or something else power over your emotional state. It doesn’t hurt that which you hate, it only can hurt yourself.
My first wife could easily call bullsh*t on that one, professor-boy.
 
Written By: Jeff
URL: http://
Erb:

"Forgive your enemies, but remember their names. " - JFK
 
Written By: Arch
URL: http://
Huxley, "bold new paradigm?" Please refer me to that statement so I can refresh myself. I don’t recall it. Timactual, you have really weird sleeping habits, it seems. Jeff, sorry your first marriage didn’t work out. Arch, I remember names, but I forget faces.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Prof. Erb — I’ve noticed that almighty Google won’t serve up all posts from QandO, just the ones that fit some threshold—of being linked elsewhere?—so I can’t find it in QandO, and the QandO date-based archives are really tedious to use. However, I remember that you had quoted yourself from your blog:
Herein lies the hope: McCain as a maverick and Obama as an inspirational newcomer each has the capacity to break with old thinking and find a way to redefine American politics and come up with a creative way to deal with the issues we face. There is a kind of political crisis taking place, the old way of thinking about politics doesn’t work, but we’re not sure how else to approach the issues. Both parties are stuck in 20th century thinking about taxes, sovereignty, government programs and coalitions. This is a new era, and we need new ideas. The notions of "left" and "right" or "conservative vs. liberal" are obsolete. It is now a test of our political process to see if we can adapt to these changes and generate the new kind of thinking needed to deal with the future.
So, again, how is Barack "Most Liberal Senator of 2007" Obama breaking with old thinking and demonstrating new creative ways to deal with today’s issues beyond the obsolete notions of "left" and "right" or "conservative vs. liberal"?
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
Yes, I do have some hope that McCain or Obama can break out of the right-left conundrum. They are better suited to do so than others in their party. But at this point McCain is obviously on the right, Obama on the left. But one can always hope! Obama could break out, so could McCain. Noting that I state I hope McCain or Obama can break out; that’s different than saying I labeled Obama a centrist or said he wasn’t on the left. I probably won’t vote for either, but whoever wins, I’ll keep hoping they break away from the silly left-right dichotomy.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Prof. Erb — Ah, hope. So this is just vague theorizing on the level that Ann Coulter can break out of her conservative politics because she loves the Grateful Dead.

My mistake then. I had thought you were buying into Obama’s demagoguery that he is something new, something not liberal.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://

My mistake then. I had thought you were buying into Obama’s demagoguery that he is something new, something not liberal.
Since I was putting McCain and Obama in the same vote, and have been quite outspoken that McCain is indeed a conservative, then clearly I was hoping that Obama’s coming from outside the system just recently or McCain’s maverick attributes might allow either one of them as President to rise above the left-right game. BTW, is it just someone like Obama you call a demagogue because you disagree with him, or do you extend the same to McCain?
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
demagogue
1 : a leader who makes use of popular prejudices and false claims and promises in order to gain power
2 : a leader championing the cause of the common people in ancient times

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demagogue
Prof. Erb — I call Obama a demagogue because IMO he fits the above definitions in modern times, not because I disagree with him.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
Huxley, can you be precise. He’s been pretty specific — and indeed, pretty liberal, in terms of calling for government programs — and I don’t see anything in his rhetoric that is any more demogogic than any other politician.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
If you’re angry at someone years after some event or misdeed, it’s a grudge.
It can be called other things as well which would carry a much less disparaging connotation.
Demanding accountability for past actions is generally not considered ’a grudge’.

By using your interpretation, I can claim incarcerating a murderer is merely a demonstration of a grudge against him by society.

It’s a demonstration of your smarmy moral superiority that you insist on categorizing their feelings, while simultaneously dismissing their validity, by referring to the whole as a ’grudge’.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Prof. Erb — Well, how about exactly the point we’ve been discussing — Obama’s claim that he isn’t liberal?
Since Mr. Obama’s record reveals him to be a doctrinaire liberal, he dismisses ideological labels as simplistic, misleading and outmoded. When asked if he’s comfortable with the liberal label, he says, "This is what I would call old politics. This is the stuff we’re trying to get rid of . . . Those old categories don’t work, and they’re preventing us from solving problems."

http://online.wsj.com/public/article_print/SB120709783253682035.html
Which sounds a lot like your blog post, hence my earlier confusion that you were drinking Obama’s kool-aid.

Like Martin, I think Obama is running a long con, a big bait-and-switch. With his oratory he is promising something grander, newer and different than what he is.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
Accountability is different than a grudge; it involves real world action (enforcing laws, etc.), it’s not a personal emotion. A grudge is what someone carries against another person — anger, resentment, etc.

Obama may be running a bait and switch — like I said, I’m probably going to vote for neither of the major party candidates — but both McCain and Obama might break out of the box. Obama is more likely to than Clinton, McCain more than the other GOP candidates. So I guess they are the best two of the ’mainstream’ candidates.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Accountability is different than a grudge; it involves real world action (enforcing laws, etc.), it’s not a personal emotion
No, holding someone accountable for their actions need have absolutely nothing to do with legality.

and yes holding someone accountable can be a personal emotion.

You keep demonstrating a need to use the term ’grudge’ for people doing something you don’t agree with, I presume to give your argument more credence.
 
Written By: looker
URL: http://
Obama might break out of the box. Obama is more likely to than Clinton
Prof. Erb — Ann Coulter might take LSD and start attending Rainbow Gatherings. How exactly do you know this? Hillary at least was with Bill when he headed to the right with NAFTA and welfare reform.

What about the possibility that if Obama does break out of the liberal box that he heads farther left—on the grudges that his church, his pastor, and his wife demonstrate against America, against whites, against corporations, against the rich, against corporations? These grudges aren’t hard to find in Obama’s memoir.
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
You keep demonstrating a need to use the term ’grudge’ for people doing something you don’t agree with, I presume to give your argument more credence.
Actually it was just about people hating Jane Fonda after four decades. That just seemed to me a bit much.

Huxley, I don’t think the country will let Obama veer left.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
Huxley, I don’t think the country will let Obama veer left.
Prof. Erb — Imagine my relief!

Once again I drill down into what you post and find nothing but vague hopes and opinions. Not with a bang but a whimper, eh?
 
Written By: huxley
URL: http://
Huxley, it’s pretty clear I haven’t been supporting Obama. If I had more than vague hopes about him, I would. But I fear he’ll be too much for big government, and despite our disagreement about Iraq, I think we agree that too much government bureaucracy, taxation and spending is a bad thing.
 
Written By: Scott Erb
URL: http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/~erb/blog.htm
How does that cadence go...

There were five things that I wanted to kill...
A lion, tiger and a kangaroo
A long haired hippy and Jane Fonda too.
So I shot the lion, tiger and the kangaroo
With one round left I asked what do I do?
I nailed Fonda let the hippie run away
Cause he ain’t a traitor to the USA.
 
Written By: ben
URL: http://

 
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